Success/Popularity stuff. Final update coming later today!

[Kewkky]

If thats a logical arguement then MK should also have pathetic results for going "evenish" with alot of top tiers when there is a better option to get a bigger advantage.

This is true. If MK really did have evenish MUs, then he wouldn't be making as much money as he is now, or be as successful. But that's a discussion for another time.

 

[Steam]

if marth really had good matchups, he wouldn't place like characters who slightly lose to most high tiers.

 

[Kewkky]

if marth really had good matchups, he wouldn't place like characters who slightly lose to most high tiers.

Which gives me an idea of yet ANOTHER way to analyze tourneys!


1. Sum of all of a character's placings in recent tourneys (if there's 10 tourneys, MK is first 7 times and second 3 times, then he would have a 1*7 + 2*3 = 13 numerical factor next to him).

2. Number of times a character has entered a tournament or gotten to top 8, whatever people prefer. (So if there's two Diddy players in top 8 and three Snakes in top 8, Diddy would have a 2 on the next column and Snake would have a 3).

3. Total number of tourneys participated (If there are four players using Marth in a single tourney, it counts as a 1. If a single Marth player goes to four tourneys, then it counts as a 4. If there's four players in three tourneys altogether, then it counts as a 3).


So, it would look like this:

character | Sum of placings | Times used | Tourneys participated
| 17 | 13 | 15
| 25 | 9 | 15
| 34 | 11 | 14
|56 | 9 | 12

*The lower the value of the "Sum of placings" column, the more viable the character is.
**The higher the value in "Times Used" in direct relation to "Sum of placings", the less viable the character is.
*** The lower the value in "Tourneys participated" in direct relation to the other two columns, the more viable the character is.


To put it simply:

-If a character has a low number in his "Sum of placings" and a low number in "Times used", we can conclude that the character's underused, but is very good or has an outlier mainer attending tourneys.
-If a character has a low number in his "Sum of placings" and a high number in "Times used", we can say that the character is overused AND is very good.
-If a character has a high number in "Sum of placings" and a low number in "Times used", then the character is underused and/or bad.
-If a character has a high number in "Sum of placings" and a high number in "Times used", then the character is both overused and/or bad.

And the "Tourneys participated" is just to see how popular a character is.

-If the character has a low number in "Tourneys participated" and a high number in "Times used", then the character is popular.
-If the character has a low number in "Tourneys participated", high on "Times used", and low on "Sum of placings", then the character is overcentralizing the metagame to whatever degree the data says.


I dunno, it's not as in-depth as John12346's own data, but it would clarify things and give us a clearer view of what's going on. Much easier than simply sifting through tourneys every time we want to discuss a character and their non-economical effect on the metagame.

 

[ShadowLink84]

@SL84- too hard to win only a +1 matchup? sounds like johns. either way if it results in the character not being as effective... then said character just isn't as good as the other characters.

It took me about a second to read this, and another 45 seconds to figure out a response.

You're clearly biased if the point of my argument flew so far over your head.
Again, why play Marth against Donkey Kong when you can play King DDD?
Furthermore, yes, it is indeed harder to win a +1 matchup than it is to win a +2 matchup.

Considering Marth's MU's are good overall but have no great advantages, his ability to perform overall, is going to be more difficult than a character who has better matchups with other high/top tier characters.

@raziek- Marth still has the 3rd most usage... so that applies to him less than everyone but snake

So what?
Popularity is not an indication of anything directly.

@cassio- I could see marth at the top of C... at the national level he seems to place around that tier. olimar, ICs, Wario, Pikachu all seem to do consistently better nationally while random mid tiers also outplace him from time to time.

All of the characters you just listed have matchups that they do better in than Marth.
Many of those matchups also tend to be more popular, so marth has to work harder than those characters.

Furthermore, ther eis also the psychological factor you appear to be ignoring.
Pikachu has his CG's
Olimar has an incredible defensive game
ICs have a death grab.
Wario can just **** all over your otherwise good day.

Marth? Marth is just...Marth. He doesn't have anything that is particularly frightening.
Real life is NEVER going to work out the way things do on paper, and for a character like Marth who is designed to simply be good, it becomes harder to perform well with him.

Frankly, I am done arguing since you honestly appear to believe Marth as being C ranked which is just laughable.

 

[Steam]

when all of those factors listed above are added up... if it results in a less effective character... then they are a worse character than the others... if he's more difficult to perform with overall... then he's just not as good as the characters that are "easier"... you can win with ganon... it's just really really hard.

basically, if marth has to work harder to win than some characters. he's worse than these characters... the tier list pretty much goes from easiest to hardest in terms of how easy a time a character has in tourney.

 

[phi1ny3]

This kinda reminds me of a different character, one that a lot of people say they have very winnable/even MUs w/, because he can't "gimp them easily", and is susceptible to juggling, and doesn't outright **** anyone. On top of that, his MUs with the high/top have only progressively become worse over time.

Snake for lower B, anyone?

 

[Steam]

snake is a proven effective character though... :/

 

[Kantrip]

when all of those factors listed above are added up... if it results in a less effective character... then they are a worse character than the others... if he's more difficult to perform with overall... then he's just not as good as the characters that are "easier"... you can win with ganon... it's just really really hard.

basically, if marth has to work harder to win than some characters. he's worse than these characters... the tier list pretty much goes from easiest to hardest in terms of how easy a time a character has in tourney.

This is not true. A tier list finds the "perfect play" of each character and ranks them from best to worst. Just because a character is harder to master does not mean they should be lower due to being "harder to play as". If it's really hard to play Marth properly, but once you DO play him properly he is an excellent character, then on a tier list he should be listed as an excellent character. Ganondorf is never an excellent character. You have to outplay your opponent to win as Ganon.

 

[Steam]

This is not true. A tier list finds the "perfect play" of each character and ranks them from best to worst. Just because a character is harder to master does not mean they should be lower due to being "harder to play as". If it's really hard to play Marth properly, but once you DO play him properly he is an excellent character, then on a tier list he should be listed as an excellent character. Ganondorf is never an excellent character. You have to outplay your opponent to win as Ganon.

this is definitely not true. tier list does not assume perfect play, it assumes top level play. at perfect play no one ever gets hit because no one makes mistakes.

you also missed my point, if a character is harder to win with/has a harder time/whatever in tourney that means they should be lower on the list. You can win with ganon, he just has a really really hard time doing it... thus he's last on the list. If marth never has an easy time in any high tier matchups, and it results in him having a harder time overall... he's a worse character than the ones with stronger matchups.

 

[Ussi]

perfect = top (Risk/Reward Ratio) or perfect = TAS (literally no mistakes)?

Cause Marth has a mid risk with his high commitment, but his reward is pretty high.

Marth also is a lightweight (lighter than Peach) so he doesn't like taking hits when he does, and he's not hard to juggle.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why are Wolf's results so insane, what has caused that?

 

[John12346]

Wolf

Spoiler

Kain 1237.5
Ally 805
Seagull 217
Christian 100
Pane 75
Holmes 61.68
MegaRobMan 24
Luminoth 10
Ish 10
Kiro 8

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So, Ally is an outlier then... What about Kain? Did you notice any pattern for why he was doing unnaturally well while compiling the data?

Also, do you have a list of all these breakdowns?

 

[Ishiey]

Wait.

Wait wait wait.

Who's this Christian dude? :o

Also, imo Kain does well because he's the best in his region, with very few people near his level.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Could I get a breakdown for ICs and Wario as well please, John?

 

[Kewkky]

Also, imo Kain does well because he's the best in his region, with very few people near his level.

This will change soon enough...

 

[Deleted member]

Kewkky gonna pay him a visit? :3

 

[Ghostbone]

This is not true. A tier list finds the "perfect play" of each character and ranks them from best to worst. Just because a character is harder to master does not mean they should be lower due to being "harder to play as". If it's really hard to play Marth properly, but once you DO play him properly he is an excellent character, then on a tier list he should be listed as an excellent character. Ganondorf is never an excellent character. You have to outplay your opponent to win as Ganon.

A. We can't judge characters in perfect play, as every character is equally viable as nobody will make mistakes.

B. So if we can't do the above, we have to judge characters on 4 main things.
1. How hard they can punish
2. How easy it is to make mistakes/be forced to make mistakes
3. How hard they get punished
4. How much they can force the opponent to make mistakes.
That's simplifying things but meh.

Of course the values for those things change as players get better, so we judge it based on top level play.
But the point is "perfect play" makes no sense, as the only way damage is dealt is through punishing mistakes. So if Marth is more prone to make mistakes than other characters, is punished harder, and can't force mistakes, he's not as good.

And then we have characters like MK, who punishes hard, forces mistakes easily, doesn't make mistakes often, and when he does generally doesn't get punished that hard.

 

[Reizilla]

Marth has a higher potential to be played well. It just takes much much more mental stamina and consistency to do so that most characters. It's not Marth that's inconsistent, so he is still amazing on paper. And does better than most high tiers in matchups.

 

[Kewkky]

Kewkky gonna pay him a visit? :3

Since there's MK banned tourneys now going on everywhere, there's a higher chance of me running into Kain in tourneys. Once I play with him enough to learn the MU...

No ego, just hyping myself up!

 

[Steam]

Marth has a higher potential to be played well. It just takes much much more mental stamina and consistency to do so that most characters. It's not Marth that's inconsistent, so he is still amazing on paper. And does better than most high tiers in matchups.

sure he has more potential. but you can't dream up a level of play that doesn't exist. if he takes more mental stamina to use and becomes something marth users have to overcome, it makes him a worse character overall

 

[DRN]

John who were the 7 zss players that made at least $100?

And can you also list the amounts each have won

Thanks in advance

 

[Seagull Joe]

Wolf

Spoiler

Kain 1237.5
Ally 805
Seagull 217
Christian 100
Pane 75
Holmes 61.68
MegaRobMan 24
Luminoth 10
Ish 10
Kiro 8

I feel like I have won more, but I think that'd include doubles/scrub tourneys I won and mid tiers/side events lmao... Kain isn't an outlier. He's just that good. Ally is an outlier because he uses like once or twice in tourney and then it has his name listed as it. Kain and me go all almost always. On rare occasions we switch off like when Kain had to vs Marshall's last tourney and he went or when I play Coney I go . Kain's result are from dominating Illinois and his travels across other states in the Midwest. Mine are from my travels to Nc, PA, and in Md/Va (My local scene).

 

[clowsui]

Wait.

Wait wait wait.

Who's this Christian dude? :o

Also, imo Kain does well because he's the best in his region, with very few people near his level.

arty and sago are pretty close to his level...DLA is getting there too.

also kain hasn't played anybody from ohio in bracket cept Y.b.M./AZ iirc.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Az is fun to play. I love the vs matchup.

 

[Tesh]

Marth has a higher potential to be played well. It just takes much much more mental stamina and consistency to do so that most characters. It's not Marth that's inconsistent, so he is still amazing on paper. And does better than most high tiers in matchups.

sure he has more potential. but you can't dream up a level of play that doesn't exist. if he takes more mental stamina to use and becomes something marth users have to overcome, it makes him a worse character overall

Its amazing how people don't understand that. Its just simple risk/reward. Marth is alot of work with mediocre payoff. That doesn't make him good.

 

[John12346]

Wario

Spoiler

Ally 2398.88
Reflex 1148.1
Blue Rogue 505.5
Atomsk 455
Jnig 304
Judge 257
Malcolm 250.8
Seibrik 248.5
RedHalberd 241.4
Bassem 222.75
Hunger 186.6
Anti 117
Mongoose 102
Ninjalink 95.1
Zak 95
GDX 87
Croi 86
Vinnie 80
Krystedez 78
Micaelis 78
Warioman! 75
Dphat 70.4
ADHD 62.4
Dynomite 49.2
Timotee 44
HungryBox 35.5
Azure_Kenny 33
PzO 30
Fiji 25
d4ba 22
Gi 20
Gnes 20
Swordgard 19
SSGuy 18
Magik 18
Melon 18
ShadowAzure 7
UltimateRazer 7
Sax 5.5
Bpow 5

Ice Climbers

Spoiler

Ally 2205.5
Vinnie 951.75
Lain 905
ESAM 561.5
Vex 504
Atomsk 378.5
Swordgard 268
Cheese 165.8
MeroKnight 164.4
Hylian 163.5
DeLux 150.4
Blue Rogue 141
Sin242 132
Sorto 100
H1N1 76
Frank Rizzle 70
GIMR 66
Nuke 50
Arty 49
Smoom 46.2
2D-Jeff 45
Cura 33
Enzo 33
MintyFlesh 27
Dakpo 26
Ninjalink 22.6
Fino 18.9
Tech_Chase 17
Bad Karma 13
Ori_Bro 10
Snipa 8
Prawn 7.5
Ambrose 5
Rubberbandman 4

Zero Suit Samus

Spoiler

Y.b.M. 337.4
Shlike 285
Dakpo 246
PatG 193.2
MeroKnight 145
Nick Riddle 131.4
UltimateRazer 102
D-Torr 78.5
DRN 73.1
Mink 40.3
DJ Falco 37.5
Lee 30
Paw 21
Snakeee 16
BlueBomberXTJ 5
Sassy 2.5

 

[Ripple]

when did I update this last?

 

[ElDominio]

If thats a logical arguement then MK should also have pathetic results for going "evenish" with alot of top tiers when there is a better option to get a bigger advantage.

I quote this post to say:
Because he doesn't go "evenish"
His MU's have been quietly "1/blown out of proportion" (the opposite of being blown out of proportion, which I can't remember how to say correctly).
I'm sure he counters a lot more people than the MU charts say, they just said he is "+1, +2" so he sounded better to keep around.

Marth is what MK defenders portray MK as, a character that goes even with almost anyone.
But MK doesn't just go even....

 

[Reizilla]

Okay, you all are dumb.

 

[Raziek]

Okay, you all are dumb.

Now you know why I gave up.

 

[fkacyan]

and what makes them top players? MK

This was posted days ago, but I just had to requote it for how absolutely ******** it is.

 

[Meru.]

wolf

Spoiler

ally 805

>_> >_> >_> >_> >_> >_> >_> >_> >_> >_> >_> >_> >_> >_> >_> >_> >_> >_>
<_< <_< <_< <_< <_< <_< <_< <_< <_< <_< <_< <_< <_< <_< <_< <_< <_< <_<

 

[Tesh]

[collapse=Alright Raz and Rei,] I believe Captain Falcon is botton of high tier. My reason is that he is a really fast character with really strong moves and combos. His recovery is good as long as he isn't facing metaknight and he is super heavy. He just takes alot of mental stamina to keep up perfect spacing and zoning so he doesn't get his *** handed to him by other mediocre characters. He goes evenish with the entire cast and thats why 95% of falcon mains get nothing done.[/collapse]

Marth does worse than characters with far worse overall matchup spreads on paper.

 

[Nike.]

It's like talking to a brickwall.

ShadowLink put it pretty nicely, and everyone just ignored him.

Steam.
If ganon mains started winning every tourney all across the country, would you consider him #1 in the game?

 

[Reizilla]

Even going by your "argument," after the top 3 characters...

Falco has DEHF and a few other not-top-level players that do well regionally.
Marth has Mike and a few that do well
Wario has... Malcolm and sorta Ally and then some that do well
ICs have... Vinnie.
Olimar has a lot
Pika has ESAM and then like K Prime and Z? maybe?


Marth is definitely mid tier.

 

[Nike.]

Hey Tesh.
Answer this:

Why is it that Espy is the only Sonic main to ever beat me?
Why is it that I've taken 509565 Sonics down, a few of whom were/are considered top5 at the time I played them?

EDIT: Not trying to hype myself up or brag lol. There's a good point behind this post.

 

[Reizilla]

Because you're a cocky sob.

 

[Nike.]

But I'm garbage

 

[Reizilla]

Garbage in TEXAS is like winning Europe though.