Success/Popularity stuff. Final update coming later today!

[Reizilla]

Top Luigis haven't lost either. Even matchup.

 

[Espy Rose]

How many instances do you have of top Luigis outdoing top Marths?
Do the results help support the discussion to that degree?
Is it a result we can see CONSISTENTLY through time, AND in different regions, with DIFFERENT players?

Because Sonic has all of those. I doubt Luigi shares the same traits.

 

[Reizilla]

Different players tho

 

[Espy Rose]

Phoenix Dark (who can't necessarily even be argued as a top player), X, and myself have all proven the result to be consistent over a long period of time.

Try again.

 

[Reizilla]

different MARTH players tho

Consistent result: Mike sucks against low tiers

 

[Espy Rose]

Haze, Roy_R (again, over time).
X and I have also taken down other Marths, but they can't be something I'd call "top".

It is a valid point to an extent though, so I'll concede to that to a degree.

PS: Sonic is mid tier, and excusing Mike via match up inexperience is silly. He's played X, myself, BAM, and Phoenix.

 

[Reizilla]

Low tier in classyness.

 

[Espy Rose]

He's American.

 

[Reizilla]

I rest my case.

 

[phi1ny3]

See Cali? This is why you need character diversity, so you don't get fingers pointed and laughed at and lose to Yoshi/Ness in brackets/crew battles. Of course, easier said than done, but still.

/callout

 

[Espy Rose]

It could be worse.
They could be the Northeast.

 

[Tesh]

I wasn't counting Espy, but now I can't find the result I thought I had with a 3rd Sonic beating Mikehaze. I thought there was a 2nd Cali sonic that defeated Mikehaze in tournament, but I'm not gonna go searching through my site history for some AIB results thread.

You can say "oh west coast is bad vs low/mid tiers", but maybe Marth is? Ever think maybe Marth just loses to DK, Sonic etc. ?

Also Nike, just curious, what is your list of defeated Sonics?

 

[Reizilla]

True that, Espy.

 

[Cassio]

Q: Why is marth good?
A: Because he has good MUs

Q: Why does marth have good MUs?
A: Because hes good.



Joking aside, Marth advocates could do a better job of explaining why their character has such a good MU spread with more detail. It wouldnt be that big an issue except that results don't match the spread, so appealing to Marths strength as a character becomes more difficult. Especially when other 'difficult to use' characters are able to produce results to match their spread.

 

[Reizilla]

Like ICs...

O

L

 

[Nike.]

Also Nike, just curious, what is your list of defeated Sonics?

Kuraudo
Kinzer (twice)
ShadowFiend
BSP
Omega
Kaoz (something like that, the one from Dallas)
Tesh (i think we're at 4?)
Zero (573653565)
Turbo

Trent doesn't dig money matches, so we never got to play

Also, results don't say MUCH, but they do support claims within match up discussion.
Marth has the tools to pseudo-wall out Sonic to a very weak degree (you can't wall Sonic with Marth, we can punish every action).

I guess we'll get into it when the next phase starts, but Marth can wall out Sonic.

EDIT: LMFAO at Rei

 

[Exceladon City]

Phoenix Dark (who can't necessarily even be argued as a top player), X, and myself have all proven the result to be consistent over a long period of time.

Try again.

That wasn't Phoenix Dark. Phoenix Dark hasn't played since '09. The Phoenix I'm talking about is PhoenixXVII or as it's spelled on here PheonixXVII

 

[Cassio]

What about ICs? In top tier they only have 2 MUs they win including 3 losing MUs to the top 4, and in high tier overall only 4. Does that seem exaggerated?

 

[Nike.]

Well thankfully discussion on MU Chart v2 in underway, so it's gonna see a big update in the next few months.
Alot of MU's regarding the top tiers could possibly change.

 

[Tesh]

As expected , no one on that list is notable enough for the point you are making. I'm sure I could find alot of low-mid level Marth mains to beat and use as proof on my end. I would have hoped at least you would have Trent on that list, but nope. Almost all of those players don't even have good Marth experience.

Unless of course I'm giving you too much credit...

 

[Nike.]

I remember ShadowFiend was considered close to top5 at the time I played him.
So was Kuraudo.
But yea, point taken on everyone else.

 

[Espy Rose]

I guess we'll get into it when the next phase starts, but Marth can wall out Sonic.

lol.
No he doesn't. Marth's walls are mediocre vs. Sonic.

That wasn't Phoenix Dark. Phoenix Dark hasn't played since '09. The Phoenix I'm talking about is PhoenixXVII or as it's spelled on here PheonixXVII

Same difference.

 

[Nike.]

Yes he does.

 

[Reizilla]

Inb4yesinresponsetoimpendingno

ICs are in the same tier as Marth and have mostly poor results, not counting Ally. Same with Wario. And Pikachu.

 

[Espy Rose]

No he doesn't.
Stop overrating the hell outta your character. Marth isn't that good.

 

[Tesh]

I know nothing of Shadofiend(i dont think there is a W), but I'm guessing that was a long long time ago. Cloud was very briefly considered top 5 and only be default, because Speedius quit and no one knew who the hell D1AOS was.

In any case, if you are willing to argue that Marth mains are bad, I too and willing to argue that all of those Sonics are horrible and if they knew how to play they would jv4stock you on brinstar because Marth sucks and Sonic is hard to play and is top tier and would be the best without metaknight. This is my theory...

 

[Nike.]

I saw where you put him on the last tier list, Espy

Oh, bring your memory card with the replays tmrw!

 

[Sinister Slush]

So many chances to make money with Yoshi taken away right in front of me.

Sadsadsadsadsad

 

[Reizilla]

No he doesn't.
Stop overrating the hell outta your character. Marth isn't that good.

Does too.
Says the Sonic main.


I love data. It's so easily manipulated.

It's also funny how the trolls try to play off Europe like it doesn't matter when there are more than enough Europeans in the BBR to justify it's influence in the tierlist and match-up chart. Lmao

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic doesn't get walled by Marth.
If that was the case it would be a solid advantage for Marth.
Marth can try to keep Sonic out, but Sonic does have the tools to get in on marth.
It's just not easy for Sonic to get in on Marth as it is for Marth to try and space Sonic.

Furthermore, no, I really don't want to bother going into every single detail regarding all of Marth's MU's.
This isn't the Marth forum, and frankly, I made it pretty clear as to why Marth isn't going to perform as well as he would seem on paper.
Considering both times I did that it was completely ignored, I don't see any reason for Nike, myself or anyone else to go into these circular arguments.

You believe Marth is not as good as he is on the tierlist, then that's fine.
Agree to disagree, now lets look at other issues regarding the competitive environment that are probably more important.

 

[Cassio]

Characters that excel at breaking zones over zoning are terribly underrated. Maybe its the difficulty of such a style, or just a difficult concept to grasp.

Of course you could also be metaknight, who's amazing at both.

Furthermore, no, I really don't want to bother going into every single detail regarding all of Marth's MU's.
This isn't the Marth forum, and frankly, I made it pretty clear as to why Marth isn't going to perform as well as he would seem on paper.
Considering both times I did that it was completely ignored, I don't see any reason for Nike, myself or anyone else to go into these circular arguments.

I think most of us acknowledge that marth is a great character. His tier placement doesnt seem particularly incorrect.

But I mean...lets assume for the sake of argument that that marth is by far the hardest character in the game to play and therefore underperforms in his MUs. There still needs to be solid reasoning for his MU spread other than the question begging scenario I listed above, which is what has been given thus far. Understandable that its not something to be discussed here, but if everyones expected to believe Marths MU spread there needs to be a very good explanation somewhere.

 

[Steam]

Does too.
Says the Sonic main.


I love data. It's so easily manipulated.

It's also funny how the trolls try to play off Europe like it doesn't matter when there are more than enough Europeans in the BBR to justify it's influence in the tierlist and match-up chart. Lmao

the presence of European people in the BBR has 0 to do with the validity of European results. the fact of the matter is that they are two separate scenes so we have NO WAY to rate them against each other since we don't even know how good they are. There are australians in the BBR, should their results been treated equally to US and Europe? It's not really a great idea to just use two seperate scenes when you have no reliable frame of reference of how they stack up between each other... It's why I think that NA/EU/Japan should have their own tier lists... because they're different metagames.

 

[Reizilla]

None-the-less, you're complaining about his placement on the current tier list, which incorporates all three of those regions.

 

[Espy Rose]

Pretty sure Europe and Japan's influence on the North American tier list is pretty negligible.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Characters that excel at breaking zones over zoning are terribly underrated. Maybe its the difficulty of such a style, or just a difficult concept to grasp.

Of course you could also be metaknight, who's amazing at both.

Ugh....metaknight.

I think most of us acknowledge that marth is a great character. His tier placement doesnt seem particularly incorrect.

And part of the reasons arreeeeee

But I mean...lets assume for the sake of argument that that marth is by far the hardest character in the game to play and therefore underperforms in his MUs. There still needs to be solid reasoning for his MU spread other than the question begging scenario I listed above, which is what has been given thus far. Understandable that its not something to be discussed here, but if everyones expected to believe Marths MU spread there needs to be a very good explanation somewhere.

Summarized, results.

Again, the explanations have been provided to you, and I'd rather not go in circles doing an explanation for it again, only for you and steam and whatever other individual to go , but there just has to be a reason for him to be under performing!

Frankly, outside of someone saying Marth is a lesser character, you won't be satisfied.

 

[Ghostbone]

I've learned that when its come down to where the opposing side simply insists on ignoring your statement for the sake of furthering their own argument, its better just to let it go and walk away.

From a while ago but I just had to point out the massive irony.
No really, listen to yourself.

 

[ShadowLink84]

From a while ago but I just had to point out the massive irony.
No really, listen to yourself.

You are probably thinking in your head at the moment, oh yeah I just one pped this *******...except...I already noticed long, long ago.

Every individual will be hypocritical at some point at another, pointing it out doesn't change the statement, only the perception of the individual, which in itself may alter the argument as it hurts their credibility.

In this case?
Not really, quit being salty that I disagreed with you regarding MK.

 

[Steam]

I know what SL84's explanation was about marth. the problem is the tier list models the best characters to use in tourney play. so if there are factors like that that marth mains have to overcome in order to win tourneys, it makes him worse of a character. D3 is 11th while having 9 bad matchups and getting hard countered by MK... but there are no real outside factors like mental fatigue that can screw a D3 player since D3 is very straightforward.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I know what SL84's explanation was about marth. the problem is the tier list models the best characters to use in tourney play. so if there are factors like that that marth mains have to overcome in order to win tourneys, it makes him worse of a character. D3 is 11th while having 9 bad matchups and getting hard countered by MK... but there are no real outside factors like mental fatigue that can screw a D3 player since D3 is very straightforward.

The tierlist does factor as to the viability of a character in tournament play, how well they stack against others using a mix of both MU and tourney play.

The issue is that the tierlist is simply INCAPABLE of taking into account the problem a character like Marth would suffer.

It is flat out impossible to determine whether or not Marth is going to suffer in this tourney, in another tourney, or the next one s it has to account for the overall picture.

In terms of results and MU's, Sonic isn't a good character but he performs amazing for one in his current tier.

 

[Steam]

The tierlist does factor as to the viability of a character in tournament play, how well they stack against others using a mix of both MU and tourney play.

The issue is that the tierlist is simply INCAPABLE of taking into account the problem a character like Marth would suffer.

It is flat out impossible to determine whether or not Marth is going to suffer in this tourney, in another tourney, or the next one s it has to account for the overall picture.

In terms of results and MU's, Sonic isn't a good character but he performs amazing for one in his current tier.

it is possible to take these intangible things into account. you do this by looking at results. If you think about it it's the sum of all parts