Success/Popularity stuff. Final update coming later today!

[Mr-R]

Garbage in TEXAS is like winning Europe though.

 

[Tesh]

Hey Tesh.
Answer this:

Why is it that Espy is the only Sonic main to ever beat me?
Why is it that I've taken 509565 Sonics down, a few of whom were/are considered top5 at the time I played them?

EDIT: Not trying to hype myself up or brag lol. There's a good point behind this post.

Because you have consistent experience with the best Sonic in the country?
I've never heard of you beating Speed or __X__. I'm guessing you mean Trent, as Cloud was only very briefly thought of (by some) as top 5.
Just because you aren't considering a top marth doesn't mean you are worse than top Marth's at everything.

There is probably a mid level Sonic on WC that often plays against Zex/Mikehaze. Excluding them, be might be undefeated against Marths.

What was your point? That Marth is top tier because a mid level marth beat a "top" sonic?

 

[John12346]

Alright, update time. MK did, well, absolutely horrendously for this week; the worst he's ever performed in all of 2011. He didn't even come close to being the leader in money for this week, it was that bad. But hey, I suppose standard deviation is to be expected when only THREE tournaments happen over the course of a weekend, eh?

-___ -;

Raw Data

Spoiler

Characters
Snake: 238.17
Diddy: 103.4
GaW: 32.9
ICs: 32.9
Olimar: 94.6
MK: 121.32
Pikachu: 18.8
TLink: 52.25
Falco: 35
R.O.B.: 65
Pit: 65
Peach: 65
Marth: 6.07

Users
Snake: 256.8
Diddy: 103.4
GaW: 65.8
ICs: 65.8
Olimar: 94.6
MK: 198.7
Pikachu: 18.8
TLink: 104.5
Falco: 41.5
R.O.B.: 130
Pit: 130
Peach: 65
Marth: 18.2

Players
UltimateRazer Snake: 225.6
Gnes Diddy: 103.4
Vinnie GaW: 65.8
Vinnie ICs: 65.8
Denti Olimar: 37.6
ALSM MK: 18.8
K Prime Pikachu: 18.8
MJG TLink: 104.5
MJG MK: 104.5
Fino Olimar: 57
Kemo Falco: 28.5
Kiraflax R.O.B.: 130
Kiraflax Pit: 130
Kyle Peach: 65
Darkshifter MK: 31.2
DarkLink MK: 18.2
DarkLink Marth: 18.2
DarkLink Snake: 18.2
Mooninite MK: 13
Mooninite Falco: 13
Jard MK: 13
Jard Snake: 13

Tournaments Used
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310616
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310517
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310652
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.
.
.
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30+ Entrant Tournaments

Characters
Snake: 225.6
Diddy: 103.4
GaW: 32.9
ICs: 32.9
Olimar: 37.6
MK: 18.8
Pikachu: 18.8

Users
Snake: 225.6
Diddy: 103.4
GaW: 65.8
ICs: 65.8
Olimar: 37.6
MK: 18.8
Pikachu: 18.8

Tournaments Used
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310616
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.
.
.
.
45+ Entrant Tournaments

Characters
Snake: 225.6
Diddy: 103.4
GaW: 32.9
ICs: 32.9
Olimar: 37.6
MK: 18.8
Pikachu: 18.8

Users
Snake: 225.6
Diddy: 103.4
GaW: 65.8
ICs: 65.8
Olimar: 37.6
MK: 18.8
Pikachu: 18.8

Tournaments Used
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310616
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.
.
.
.
100+ Entrant Tournaments

N/A
.
.
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MK Banned Tournaments

Characters
Diddy: 70
ICs: 87.5
Kirby: 70
Olimar: 105
Snake: 49
Falco: 17.5

Users
Diddy: 210
ICs: 262.5
Kirby: 210
Olimar: 105
Snake: 84
Falco: 52.5

Usage
Diddy: 2
ICs: 3
Kirby: 3
Olimar: 1
Snake: 5
Falco: 7
Dedede: 1
Wario: 3
Fox: 2
GaW: 2
DK: 1
Lucario: 2
Wolf: 2
Ganon: 1
Peach: 1
Mario: 1
TLink: 1
Yoshi: 1
Marth: 2
Pikachu: 1
Zamus: 2
Ike: 1
Ness: 1

Tournaments Used
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310603

Update Information
- Meta Knight sucks?
- Mr. Game and Watch regains viability!
- R.O.B. breaks $1000!

Please remember to Right Click and hit "View Image" on any image that is not large enough to be displayed properly.

 

[WindMajor]

There's always a catch with MK, isn't there?

Regardless, good work, #s.

 

[Flayl]

It's like talking to a brickwall.

ShadowLink put it pretty nicely, and everyone just ignored him.

Steam.
If ganon mains started winning every tourney all across the country, would you consider him #1 in the game?

If he won more than any other character, yes I would consider him the best in the game.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So would I, as it would show that Ganondorf is the best character in the current metagame.

UNLESS, for some really weird reason there was one player who was leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else and was ****** with Ganon.

 

[Flayl]

That wouldn't be enough, there would need to be multiple ganondorf mainers for him to be considered best results-wise.

 

[Ussi]

ROB breaks a 1000 o.o why did he go down again?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ROB breaks a 1000 o.o why did he go down again?

 

[Ussi]

Cause Kirby and DK do any better against MK that it would matter?

 

[Kewkky]

Yep. People are getting ready for an MK banned community so they're dumbing down in MK usage, is what I can come up with. We've had loads of MK banned tourneys lately, doesn't seem like my guess is that farfetched.

 

[Steam]

Steam.
If ganon mains started winning every tourney all across the country, would you consider him #1 in the game?

Yes without a doubt since ganon's tools would have developed a winning formula

 

[Raziek]

Sometimes I wish I could throw bricks through the internet.

 

[Flayl]

Maybe marth mains should stop using bad hypothetical questions to get their point across

 

[ShadowLink84]

If thats a logical arguement then MK should also have pathetic results for going "evenish" with alot of top tiers when there is a better option to get a bigger advantage.

Are you honestly trying to compare MetaKnight to Marth?
That's just laughable in itself.

Sometimes I wish I could throw bricks through the internet.

I've learned that when its come down to where the opposing side simply insists on ignoring your statement for the sake of furthering their own argument, its better just to let it go and walk away.

Besides, the majority of the people one argues with probably haven't played anything competitively outside of Brawl.

 

[Nike.]

Nvm, it really is like talking to brick wall. Suddenly remembered why I quit coming to this sub forum

 

[Steam]

Nvm, it really is like talking to brick wall. Suddenly remembered why I quit coming to this sub forum

you seem even more like a brick wall since we're backed up by actual evidence and not just the status quo for what matchups have been forever.

 

[Raziek]

Nevermind.

 

[Flayl]

Look guys I don't even think Marth is C tier, but you're doing a horrible job at explaining why he isn't.

 

[Tesh]

I was interested to see what Nike's point was, but maybe (like the rest of Marth mains) he didn't actually have a good one to begin with.

I suppose we can all agree now that Marth is really good and all Marth users are really bad eh?

 

[Steam]

yeah totally, Same goes for ganon. he's really D tier.

I missed raziek's rage post : (

 

[Espy Rose]

Not gonna lie, I agree with Flayl here.
Keep practicing, Marths.

 

[Nike.]

Tier Lists are not based purely on results.
They are also not based purely on theorycraft.

It's balance.

Also, slight advantage does not mean an auto win for a character.
If Mikehaze loses to _X_ or ESAM, that does not mean auto even for those MU's.

 

[Juushichi]

So Marth is a character that has the potential to win a lot of matchups above mid tier... and he also has the potential to lose matchups in that same grouping, but he has amazing traits. So... an average (very winnable and very losable) MU spread against most of the cast, average advantages on stages and great traits equal one of the best characters in the game?

 

[Tesh]

If its a balance then we should take hid mid tier results and his top tier theorycraft and put him in the bottom of high tier.

If __X__ beating Mikehaze doesn't count for much, then why did you bring up beating a bunch of Sonics? Results don't matter right? My theory is that Sonic has a slight advantage on Marth and you win because Sonic is very stressful and you are a better player and stuff.

 

[Nike.]

I'm not saying that results mean nothing, but to put an entire ratio off of how 2 people fared against each other (which wasn't recorded, sadly) shouldn't be the answer.

Espy and I are a perfect example of the current ratio.
I know the options Marth has against Sonic (he has an answer for everything sonic throws at him).
However, because he's a better player than me (ALOT better actually) he overcomes the slight disadvantage to beat me.
Against people more towards my level, I can win based off of MU knowledge.

Mikehaze vs _X_ was not recorded.
Besides for the people watching it live, we have no idea what happened.
But to say "Top Sonic beat Top Marth in a set, therefore it's not a slight advantage for Marth" shouldn't be the route to take.

Also, Marth does not have mid tier results.
The best Marth's are doing great in their respective regions.
Mikehaze is currently #2 in SoCal, a top2 region.
Mr-R and Leon completely destroy Europe.
Kadaj is #1 in his region, and recently has only lost to disadvantage MU's for the most part.
Neo is top5 in Md/VA, another extremely tough region.

I personally made alot of useful data when the last tier list was created regarding tourney results.
Multiple peoples views of character locations were affected by it.
So I hear the results side of the argument pretty well.

 

[Tesh]

Mikehaze didn't lose to one Sonic once... I've heard of him losing to at least 3 different ones, only one being top level.

Europe is a different metagame and I can easily point to other mid tiers with players ranked high in tough regions. Though tbh I don't know much of anything about Kadaj, but I'm assuming its not a tough region since you didn't name it or any of his accomplishments.

Characters near Marth on the tier list are doing alot better (cept pikachu who is in the same boat imo).

 

[Exceladon City]

I mean, 1 player doesn't make a match-up. As much as some players would like to think. ESAM

With the Sonic/Marth MU specifically, if you look for high-mid and high level Sonics going against Marth mains of the same skill level, you'll see that alot of the time, Sonic goes pretty much even with him.

Nike, bringing up you slaying a number of Sonics mean 1 of 2 things.

1. You're far better at the MU from the other end.
2. You're a far better player than them.

As Tesh said, you do in fact play with THE top Sonic in the country...on a regular basis.

Marth is a solid character no doubt. But as EVERYONE who isn't a Marth has pointed out, he has a wide array of 0 and +1 MUs. Most of which he ends up having a losing record against. Save for Pit, Peach, Falco, Sheilda, Sheik and Toon Link.

Truth be told, Marth is really the most average top tier character.

 

[Nike.]

I agree with you on pikachu.
Never understood the pika craze before the last tier list lol.
Olimar mains have proved that Olimar is good.

Mike lost to 3 sonic mains?
Who were they? :O

I mean, 1 player doesn't make a match-up. As much as some players would like to think. ESAM

With the Sonic/Marth MU specifically, if you look for high-mid and high level Sonics going against Marth mains of the same skill level, you'll see that alot of the time, Sonic goes pretty much even with him.

Nike, bringing up you slaying a number of Sonics mean 1 of 2 things.

1. You're far better at the MU from the other end.
2. You're a far better player than them.

As Tesh said, you do in fact play with THE top Sonic in the country...on a regular basis.

Marth is a solid character no doubt. But as EVERYONE who isn't a Marth has pointed out, he has a wide array of 0 and +1 MUs. Most of which he ends up having a losing record against. Save for Pit, Peach, Falco, Sheilda, Sheik and Toon Link.

Truth be told, Marth is really the most average top tier character.

About me knowing the MU more, that's a pretty valid argument and your right. I think only Kuraudo was the one who knew the MU well. Point taken.
However, I wouldn't say that I was a straight up better player lol.
It just has more to do with how well I know the MU.
Sonic's hit and run game can be very fustrating, but it's certainly beatable with knowledge of the MU (experience basically).

He doesn't have a wide array of 0 (even) matchups. There are alot of +1's, though.
The other characters in the same tier as marth have straight up counters. Marth has none.
That's a pretty big edge.

 

[Reizilla]

Yeah, those Ice Climbers and Warios are way outshining Marth right now.

 

[Exceladon City]

Mike lost to 3 sonic mains?
Who were they? :O

Phoenix
Espy
X

About me knowing the MU more, that's a pretty valid argument and your right. I think only Kuraudo was the one who knew the MU well. Point taken.

However, I wouldn't say that I was a straight up better player lol.

Well Kuraudo has KillL0ck experience.

But it goes back to 1 of the 2 things.

1. You're a better player than Tesh, Zero and Turbo
2. You knew the match up better from the other end. See: Kuraudo and BSP.

I could say that I could give you a run for your money because it's my best MU and my favorite to play. Chances are you're going to beat me because you know the MU way better than I know Marth and you're just straight up and down better than me.

He doesn't have a wide array of 0 (even) matchups. There are alot of +1's, though.
The other characters in the same tier as marth have straight up counters. Marth has none.
That's a pretty big edge.

For a top tier character, he has ALOT of even to slightly advantaged match-ups. They only characters with more +1s than Marth are Diddy and Wario and even then those +1s are more or less closer to +2s for them. Imo. Also, I don't believe Pit and Peach are +1s for Marth. He ***** those 2.

 

[Nike.]

Espy and Mikehaze never played in tourney.
They played friendlies way back in 09 (I was there lol).
Phoenix I've never heard of :O
Is there a link to the tourney?

I'd love if we got the chance to play

Marth doesn't have many even matchups.
Snake has more +1's (though he also has more +2's, but thats part of why he's higher lol)
Diddy and Wario both have as many +1's as Marth.
Marth isn't the only one falling under this category.

Everyone is also forgetting about disadvantages.
Pikachu, Olimar, Wario, Falco all have counters (Falco even has a hard counter).
Marth has none. Having 3 slight disadvantages is doing really well when you look at the rest of B-Tier.

EDIT: Wow, I can't type right lol

 

[Steam]

Also, Marth does not have mid tier results.
The best Marth's are doing great in their respective regions.
Mikehaze is currently #2 in SoCal, a top2 region.
Mr-R and Leon completely destroy Europe.
Kadaj is #1 in his region, and recently has only lost to disadvantage MU's for the most part.
Neo is top5 in Md/VA, another extremely tough region.

when you consider he's third in usage after MK and snake and has double the usage of characters like olimar... it's awful.

-Mikehaze is good
-It's impossible to fairly rate European marths until the NA and EU scenes play each other more.
-Kadaj is first in North Carolina, which doesn't say much.
-Neo is pretty good too.

when you compare it to other characters... this isn't good ESPECIALLY considering his usage... with his usage if he's a top 5 character he should be consistantly taking top 3 in nationals... not struggling to make top 16

 

[Nike.]

when you compare it to other characters... this isn't good ESPECIALLY considering his usage... with his usage if he's a top 5 character he should be consistantly taking top 3 in nationals... not struggling to make top 16

Your grouping top5 wrong.
Marth is in the same tier as Wario/IC's/Oli/Pika. He's not supposed to be grouped with the top4.
How does that mean he should consistently be placing top3?
When top3 at nationals consists of Metaknight and Diddy, 2 of his hardest matchups, you can't expect Marth or any character that loses to them to consistently place top3.

I can agree with "He should be placing top8-16 without trouble". That's a pretty valid argument.
But top 3 is way too high a bar to set for anybody not MK/Diddy/Snake/Falco.

 

[BSP]

I have like 0 marth experience, so don't base your MU judgement on what I did

 

[Steam]

Your grouping top5 wrong.
Marth is in the same tier as Wario/IC's/Oli/Pika. He's not supposed to be grouped with the top4.
How does that mean he should consistently be placing top3?
When top3 at nationals consists of Metaknight and Diddy, 2 of his hardest matchups, you can't expect Marth or any character that loses to them to consistently place top3.

I can agree with "He should be placing top8-16 without trouble". That's a pretty valid argument.
But top 3 is way too high a bar to set for anybody not MK/Diddy/Snake/Falco.

Losing slightly to the two top characters shouldn't be a death sentence. other high tier characters seem to overcome it and often have it much worse. Lucario for example loses worse to MK than marth, about the same against diddy, and loses terribly to snake... but Lucario's been placing better pretty similar to marth at big events and does good regionally as well. This applies to pretty much everyone above lucario as well... and marth gets so much more usage :/

 

[Reizilla]

Usage don't mean ****.

 

[Steam]

Usage don't mean ****.

uhhhhhhhhh

The more a character is used, the more chances they have to win/be successful by any sort of standard. more usage benefits this.

 

[Exceladon City]

I have like 0 marth experience, so don't base your MU judgement on what I did

Well, I didn't know that. I was just going by what I read in the results thread.

 

[Espy Rose]

Nike, I told you that Phoenix beat Haze the weekend he did it.

Also, results don't say MUCH, but they do support claims within match up discussion.
Marth has the tools to pseudo-wall out Sonic to a very weak degree (you can't wall Sonic with Marth, we can punish every action), but in practice, top Sonics have managed to topple top Marths consistently. In fact, if you focus primarily on the top players, Sonic has almost never lost to Marth in a tournament set.

This gives more support to the idea that Sonic goes, at the very least, even with Marth, rather than having a losing match up.

Marth is not hard at all for Sonic.
At all.