Stage Information Database and Q&A

[infiniteV115]

The funny thing is I'll bet nobody in my region (except for me, and I just found out today because of this thread) knows about rudder camping and how it works, and yet I imagine almost everyone in my region would want PS banned. >.<

 

[Supreme Dirt]

V, people in our region can keep a straight face wanting Frigate Orpheon banned.

I mean stages is what kept me interested in Brawl.

That's gone now.

 

[infiniteV115]

I dunno who said they want Frigate banned but it doesn't matter lol. Every tourney ever hosted in our region since I joined the scene has had Frigate legal (4 different TOs: Cruxis, Tin, Joe and Oakville) so I don't think it's going anywhere XD

The worst we've had so far was the Apex stagelist.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

SD: Rich coming from the guy who wants Yoshi's Island banned.

 

[WindMajor]

Called out.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yoshi's Island is a terrible, random, and uncompetitive stage.

Frigate Orpheon's randomness is heavily telegraphed randomness. The side platforms are tolerable because while random to a degree, they follow a pattern and for the most part CAN be relied upon by a player.
Pirate Ship's randomness is heavily telegraphed randomness.
Norfair's randomness the ENTIRE SCREEN SHAKES to let you know it's coming and the CAMERA ZOOMS out.

Yoshi's Island, with absolutely no warning and completely randomly, produces a platform that can effectively save or remove stocks and a completely random element with no warning that can cause obscure locks, interrupt certain recoveries (Ness, Captain Falcon, Ike being a few), and cause hitlag from moves, which unlike Melee actually matters in this game due to much higher hitlag.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If there was a random chance of food that healed 1% spawning, would you be adamantly opposed to it?

 

[Raziek]

SD, do you at least accept that nobody will EVER ban YI?

Because it's one thing to be opposed on a logical standpoint to something, and another entirely to desire something highly unlikely to ever happen.

Because it just makes you look like a fool. *coughlegalizingmariobroscough*

 

[WindMajor]

whoa whoa okay time out time out man

Mario Bros. is a fine stage, you take that back.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

If there was a random chance of food that healed 1% spawning, would you be adamantly opposed to it?

Yes, for consistency. The general belief seems to be randomness is bad and must be reduced at any cost. Brawl rulesets need to at least be consistent in that.

SD, do you at least accept that nobody will EVER ban YI?

Because it's one thing to be opposed on a logical standpoint to something, and another entirely to desire something highly unlikely to ever happen.

Because it just makes you look like a fool. *coughlegalizingmariobroscough*

Oh I know it's never going to be banned lol.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Player vs. player combat is essentially random because of the massive number of variables. Obviously not 100%, but it does impact results.

Do you have a problem with this?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Player vs. player combat is essentially random because of the massive number of variables. Obviously not 100%, but it does impact results.

Do you have a problem with this?

 

[WindMajor]

I want to get rid of that duplicate post but it's literally impossible to do so now, and that makes me very angry.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Player vs. Player combat is deemed acceptable by the majority of the community.

Should the majority of the community decide that players should be banned from competitive play then I'll revise my stance.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

YI is deemed acceptable by the majority and that doesn't seem to affect your stance at all.

The point is that randomness is unavoidable and we have to draw a line somewhere. If you agree with that, I'll explain why YI's randomness is acceptable.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

YI's randomness is not acceptable by any standard.

The community has essentially decided that as much randomness must be eliminated while still leaving the game playable with the line drawn at banning characters.

This includes banning of stages and items.

As a result all items are banned, the vast majority of stages are banned, and in all reality every stage except Final Destination and Battlefield should be banned (as all other acceptably non-random stages are banned for reasons other than randomness).

I'm just saying, the community is inconsistent. I'd be fine with Yoshi's Island Brawl being legal if stages like Norfair or Pirate Ship weren't banned in large part due to their randomness.

 

[T-block]

i enjoy drawing a comparison between YI:B and GG

it's fun watching people justify YI:B's randomness via a localization argument, and then somehow try to dismiss that same argument with regard to exploding apples and falling bomb blocks

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't think GG is banworthy, mind you.

If that is your reasoning, then I have no qualms, SD.

 

[-LzR-]

But they always say that saving a stock =/= killing a stock >_>

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Saving a stock doesn't equal killing a stock.

You are still in a bad position on YI when you are saved (general statement, please don't give me random MU specific examples to show that I am wrong), so it is easier for the opponent to "correct the randomness".

If you get KO'd by the stage, there is no way to get your stock back.

 

[Yikarur]

and the probability of that happening is really high.
you can almost rely on it. It's not like a 1:100 Chance.

 

[BSP]

Saving a stock doesn't equal killing a stock.

You are still in a bad position on YI when you are saved (general statement, please don't give me random MU specific examples to show that I am wrong), so it is easier for the opponent to "correct the randomness".

If you get KO'd by the stage, there is no way to get your stock back.

Saving a stock is still pretty huge, but I guess not huge enough to where a majority of people would want the stage banned.

 

[T-block]

Saving a stock doesn't equal killing a stock.

You are still in a bad position on YI when you are saved (general statement, please don't give me random MU specific examples to show that I am wrong), so it is easier for the opponent to "correct the randomness".

If you get KO'd by the stage, there is no way to get your stock back.

it's on the same order of magnitude then, grim. who's to say we can concretely evaluate an event's effect on a match anyways?

it's not a given that you can still "correct the randomness". you said no matchup specific stuff, but there are so many cases where it doesn't apply...

• if the character being saved is at low percents - getting your double jump and up-b back is going to give you a very high chance of making it back no matter what hit your opponent lands on you
• if the attacker does not have an appropriate aerial - what can characters like ness, sonic, ivysaur do, even if they are fully prepared for the possibility of the platform? their strong punishing aerials are too slow to be landed reliably. getting a free ivysaur b-air isn't enough to "make up" for being robbed of that stock
• if the character being saved has low landing lag on freefall landing - closely tied to the previous point in that it makes punishing with a solid hit actually quite difficult, and if the recovery time is low enough, outright impossible to guarantee. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxc-I1cI1aI - watch when falco's shield would have come up if he had been holding it. sure, falco would edge slip, but in a matchup that's not MK-falco, the recoverer would have a damn good chance to make it back even with an edge slip.

meanwhile, when it comes to hazards taking stocks, most of the time it only occurs when you are at high percents anyways (GG bombs don't kill until stupid high percents). yeah there are specific cases like picto, with the diagonal line or a wall appearing as d3 grabs you or something (but we're not talking about picto atm for once =o), but in general, would you rather have a stage take your stock at 130%, or have it save your opponent's at 20%?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I concede, good argument.

 

[ぱみゅ]

What's this?
ac- ac-- act-- ACTIVITY??

 

[Grim Tuesday]

whatever happened to BPC?

 

[BSP]

He started going to tournaments

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Does he place?

At all?

I don't follow the European scene because they are bad, so if he is a top player I wouldn't know

 

[T-block]

haha shots fired

i almost miss him =(

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Shots fired if I were American, but my country is terrible at Smash. Europe is just the worst of the three super powera.d.

And I know what you man, I miss him too.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

BPC stopped caring because he realized that arguing for stages simply doesn't matter.

His words, not mine.

He spends a lot of his time working on Brawl- these days, and apparently lots of irl stuff.

 

[Dre89]

Random question- If someone is rudder camping on Pirate Ship, is it possible to go and rudder camp yourself, and push them into the KO zone? Kinda like how you can move stationary foes by walking into them.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yes.

Yes it is.

 

[Raziek]

Unless they push back, which causes stale mating.

 

[Dre89]

But then if you moved in the direction they were pushing, they might actually come out from underneath the rudder. That's too much theorycraft though.

People in my scene seem to justify the ban on the hazards and general stage awkwardness rather than rudder camping though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Dre, its Australia, logic doesn't dictate the legal stage list - bias and tradition do.

 

[Dre89]

I can't comment on that because I've only been to one tourney and don't know the NSW scene that much, but to be fair to them they did have it legal at one point.

The argument seems to be that the hazards are too polarising. EA (I'm guessing you know him) suggested that if I versed good players on it I'd realise how polarising they are and that my lack of competitive experience is the reason why I don't think the stage is uncompetitively awkward.

Grim you're from SA right? You must play Apollo. I play him occasionally on wifi, he usually wrecks me.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The only reason it feels "competitively awkward" is because it is seldom played on. I can tell you right now, if FD wasn't as popular as it is then it would be considered very awkward to play on.

The hazards (bombs and catapult) are so easy to avoid in practice that they might as well not exist.

I know of EA, but I've never met him. And yeah, I play Apollo all the time aha - he's a beast.

 

[Dre89]

That's what I thought too, that's it's just because it's not played often. Virtually all the elements of the stage are present on other legal stages.

Good to know I'm not the only one that gets wrecked by him.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I didn't say I got wrecked by him

We're close to even if I use MK; he beats my Puff though... However, I haven't tried a campier style against him, and I'll probably be using ROB next tourney so we'll see how that goes aha