Stage Information Database and Q&A

[ぱみゅ]

I am afraid I'll have to cut down my Ultimate Stagelist from 21 to 19 or even 17...
Y'know, complains may lead to discontent (lower attendance), and from there, it will be bad for our scene.... So changes have to be made.
The advantage of doing so is that I can make the decision on my own without sticking to any criteria (Picto and YI:M can stay! :D), but still sucks for the overall idea...

 

[WindMajor]

Congrats to Kyokoro and BSP for making it into the BBR!

 

[BSP]

Thanks Twinkie

congrats to you too kyokoro

I already know my first topic is going to pertain to the ruleset and stages...I'm not sure where to start though.

 

[ぱみゅ]

We'll do great there BSP

Also, I aprove with thread title.
There's some work and introductory textwalls to read first, though.

 

[C.J.]

You two better do great, I vouched for you both!

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Why is FD not a counterpick on smaller stagelists? It is so much more polarizing than the others to a larger amount of characters.

And what makes MK so good on Jungle Japes? I don't really see what he gets from the stage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Why is FD not a counterpick on smaller stagelists? It is so much more polarizing than the others to a larger amount of characters.

Because most TOs don't care. It is flat, then it is basic, then it is starter.
Then again, I'm not a supporter of the Starter/CP distinction.

And what makes MK so good on Jungle Japes? I don't really see what he gets from the stage.

Shuttle Loop.

 

[-LzR-]

Actually I would say tornado owns on Japes. You can most of the time safely tornado to the side platforms and be safe. Most characters best options to punish nado as dashattack the landing or dashgrab it or something similar. He they would have to run there and jump where MK pretty much just GSL whatever they do. Dumb stage for MK for many other reasons too.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Tornado is easily beatable from above, if he mis-spaces it and attacks when you're in a side/top platform, you are most likely to punish it.
If you don't he can easily retreat, tho.

Even if it is good there, I consider Dair and Shuttle Loop are much stronger, being the stage horizontally short, they kill at ver low percentages.
Also, if you ever allow him to edguard the left side of the stage, you just have lost your stock.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nado is almost completely unpunishable from anywhere on the stage as long as you land in the water and keep track of the Klap Trap timer.

The general layout of the platform + Meta Knight's hitboxes and frame data gives MK the advantage in more effectively different situations than most other stages.

MK punishes harder due to the close side blastzones.

Those are the only major reasons.

 

[T-block]

I've never considered MK to be universally strong on JJ. The nado camping theory (with nado being harder to punish when landing on the side platforms) might have merit, but I've never seen it abused effectively, and even then, is it really so much more effective than scrooging on Smashville? Closer side blastzones and water tend to mitigate the gimping/recovery advantage he has on most characters. In terms of mobility, the segmented layout tends to favour aerial mobility, whereas outside of nado, MK's mobility comes from his dash speed. Game and Watch comes to mind as a character who would do well against MK here. High ceiling means Shuttle Loop OoS will kill much later too, although in matchups against characters with vertical KO moves, it tends to help MK more.

 

[BSP]

Japes hasn't been legal at any tournaments I've been too, so I don't have tournament exp. on it. From wifi and friendlies though, I've found that it is a very good camping stage for and Just set up shop on the right platform and launch FBs are charge spindash all day lol.

 

[Tesh]

I've never considered MK to be universally strong on JJ. The nado camping theory (with nado being harder to punish when landing on the side platforms) might have merit, but I've never seen it abused effectively, and even then, is it really so much more effective than scrooging on Smashville? Closer side blastzones and water tend to mitigate the gimping/recovery advantage he has on most characters. In terms of mobility, the segmented layout tends to favour aerial mobility, whereas outside of nado, MK's mobility comes from his dash speed. Game and Watch comes to mind as a character who would do well against MK here. High ceiling means Shuttle Loop OoS will kill much later too, although in matchups against characters with vertical KO moves, it tends to help MK more.

Scrooging on Smashville is alot easier for people to make a rule about. It would be pretty hard to say "when you nado on japes, you can't retreat it up and away from your opponent more than once" or something to that effect. LGL also has almost no effect on this kind of camping too. Scrooging can be dealt with by forcing MK to grab the ledge now and then with a low enough LGL.

Other strong things include the water saving him when he needs to use his drill rush to brake (very strong on japes). That platform layout alot makes him very difficult to approach because of his strong anti air. Its just another stage that really forces people to play an air game when his is among the strongest. On the other hand, its not like other characters can do the same to him.

I'd put it in the same bag as RC. It really limits the options to be remotely aggressive against him. The only characters that might be able to deal with him here would need to abuse the same things to just time him out (like Sonic/Wario on RC).

Japes hasn't been legal at any tournaments I've been too, so I don't have tournament exp. on it. From wifi and friendlies though, I've found that it is a very good camping stage for and Just set up shop on the right platform and launch FBs are charge spindash all day lol.

Tornado, Uair sharking...

I have some wifi matches of myself on japes with MK just generally being a douche.

http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...9.7.0.0.0.0.178.492.4j2.6.0...0.0.js5xQl2gsT8

Now its pretty clear that I'm just throwing away opportunities to abuse my offensive options and punishes just so I can time out, but some problems are pretty apparent.

 

[BSP]

Tesh, I was talking in general. MK wrecks Mario almost anywhere unfortunately. For Sonic, it's decent vs. some people.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't know where people got the land-on-the-side platform idea, that is definitely punishable.

You are supposed to land in the water.

 

[Life]

*land in the water*
*get daired*
^Don't see why this isn't the answer, at least for characters with dair spikes like, oh right, Falco and DK, the characters you're supposed to be complaining about on Japes, jeez

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Why does this stage seem more fair than Brinstar? Especially for MK.

Is it the water that scares some people away? Klap Traps are really predictable, and they make planking unappealing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Unless you are doing Nado from the exact opposite end of the stage, you can go underneath one of the side platforms as cover.

Also, to punish with a dair the opponent has to be on the side same side as the water you land in; not the middle or the other side.

All in all, you'd have to be tornado'ing the maximum distance across the stage, which is going to get you punished no matter what you do.

 

[Tesh]

Honestly, its not completely unpunishable by anyone, but when you think about high level play, you have to consider that almost all of the characters that can handle MK aren't the quickest and can't match tornado's mobility.

After you shield drop, you need to follow him on the ground, then jump and land on him with an aerial, with takes entirely too long for Snake/Falco/Olimar etc.

 

[BSP]

Good thing we have

 

[Dre89]

Random question why is Pirate Ship banned?

 

[WindMajor]

If it's not because of Rudder Camping, then it's because of the bombs in the background.

 

[Yikarur]

or water blastzone camping :D

 

[ぱみゅ]

People quote water camping (which I consider silly), ruddercamping (that could be banned if it were an actual problem), physics change (for 5 seconds or less) and the bombs being too powerful hazards that are hard to avoid (the most understandable of the traits).

Stage is very playable, but requires extreme caution and knowledge, and people happen to not like any of them.

 

[WindMajor]

People quote water camping (which I consider silly), ruddercamping (that could be banned if it were an actual problem), physics change (for 5 seconds or less) and the bombs being too powerful hazards that are hard to avoid (the most understandable of the traits).

Stage is very playable, but requires extreme caution and knowledge, and people happen to not like any of them.

My take on Pirate Ship:

Rudder Camping: sucks
Bombs in the Background: SH AD
Water Camping: spike
Physics change: suck it up

 

[Dre89]

How exactly does rudder camping work?

 

[Raziek]

You use a move with downward momentum to push yourself under the water enough that you get stuck in the "surfacing" animation underneath the rudder, eternally trying to come up.

Many characters cannot hit you in this position, and their only means to combat you is to float down and try to push you underneath the boat, which will kill you. More than likely, this would result in a stalemate until the Tornado hit, or the Rock.

I've never seen it happen in practice, and we had Pirate Ship legal for more than a year in NS, though it isn't anymore. (Bomb complaining lost that one)

 

[Dre89]

Oh yeah I know what that is.

Is that really that broken though? Nearly every phase except the bomb phase forces you to stop stalling.

It also seems like something that would be easy to ban.

I don't see how the hazards warrant and ban when the Halberd hazards don't.

 

[Raziek]

I don't either, but scrubs.

 

[WindMajor]

Not only do the transformations interrupt the stalling, and not only is it incredibly risky to do, but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyv6gVx9t5c

You get hoop damage while your there.

 

[Tesh]

Yea hoop damage goes to 150%, which means when the transformation comes to force you out, you are already at kill percents.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the boat can sometimes rock without warning, and that kills you too.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It always warn you.
You may not see the "!" sign if the screen is not near the prow, but the sound will always play (and you may miss it if the venue is noisy).
But the warning is always there

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Re-read what I said.

 

[ぱみゅ]

lol. This of english not being my native language PLUS not knowing a thing about nautical language doesn't help.

Well, I have never seen it, so I can't really tell.

 

[Dre89]

Cool, so let's make it legal.

 

[WindMajor]

"No because I don't like it so HA!"

...is what we'll get when we start trying.
And it'll work too.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

lol. This of english not being my native language PLUS not knowing a thing about nautical language doesn't help.

Well, I have never seen it, so I can't really tell.

Sorry, I forget not everyone here is natively English-speaking; I shouldn't have responded as bluntly lol

 

[ぱみゅ]

Don't sweat it Grim, it was mostly my fault for not knowing it (and you responded just right).
The positive side is that I have just learned a new word.

And Dre, we could make it legal if people weren't such scrubs about everything.

 

[-LzR-]

Pirate Ship... Legal? BUT THAT **** MOVES!