Stage Information Database and Q&A

[ぱみゅ]

Chilean logic on MK.... hurts....
"He wins almost all of our tournaments (although is only two people winning, actually)"
"He's not centralizing (yet, but I wannot to see him starting being picked by everyone, although is very unlikely), but he's broken enough to be banned"
"We rather prevent him from being picked now than letting him slowly centralize our metagame (whcih hasn't happened at all)"
"There have been LOTS of arguments for his ban (most of them are bad arguments, but w/e)"
"I can't wait for him to centralize, we better cut the (unexistant) problem from root NAO"

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Seems pretty logical to me. Unless your metagame is more advanced than that of top American tourneys, you should ban him before he becomes a problem

 

[Raziek]

Seems pretty logical to me. Unless your metagame is more advanced than that of top American tourneys, you should ban him before he becomes a problem

 

[T-block]

>implying metagame development is linear

 

[Grim Tuesday]

When has the metagame ever gone backwards in Smash?

It is always moving forward in the same direction; safer, more technical, smarter.

 

[Raziek]

When has the metagame ever gone backwards in Smash?

It is always moving forward in the same direction; safer, more technical, smarter.

Disagree. It's moving forward, but not always in the same direction. Depends on the players and environments, which includes stages and rulesets.

Why do you think Europe doesn't have the MK problem? More aggressive players, more conservative rulesets.

That said, still ban MK.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I forgot about Europe, I guess I'll surrender that point.

 

[Raziek]

Even Japan would prove my point, too. xD

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What areas in Europe banned him?

 

[Raziek]

Finland, I think? *paging -LzR-*

 

[WindMajor]

Yep. Finland banned him.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Grim, your avatar is amazing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You have no idea how many people have said that this week.

 

[Tesh]

that actually reminds me of one of my youtube videos...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsGPk2crlpo

So many Disney characters fall to their deaths.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Chilean logic on MK.... hurts....
"He wins almost all of our tournaments (although is only two people winning, actually)"
"He's not centralizing (yet, but I wannot to see him starting being picked by everyone, although is very unlikely), but he's broken enough to be banned"
"We rather prevent him from being picked now than letting him slowly centralize our metagame (whcih hasn't happened at all)"
"There have been LOTS of arguments for his ban (most of them are bad arguments, but w/e)"
"I can't wait for him to centralize, we better cut the (unexistant) problem from root NAO"

That's kind of what we have here in Europe, too... Everyone is considering banning him, but nobody is actually ****ing thinking.

Seems pretty logical to me. Unless your metagame is more advanced than that of top American tourneys, you should ban him before he becomes a problem

But that's banning a character based on pure speculation. Never mind that the reason the USA is so dominated by MK is because all of the top players use MK (seriously, every MK that's actually winning stuff is really ****ing good and has put a ****load of time into the game). There is no reason to believe that regions that currently do not have an MK problem will have one in the future.

Also, 10€ says we will not get a more liberal stagelist because of the ban, but rather probably lose RC and maybe Brinstar.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Meta Knight is broken no matter where you live.

Dat planking and such.

 

[-LzR-]

You have all the facts and data and limitations in your face and you still refuse to believe he is simply too good and bad for the game. Have fun banning him when everyone mains him so they quit after being forced to quit MK. Nice logic man.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Meta Knight is broken no matter where you live.

Dat planking and such.

If I recall correctly, I had some words about this in my blog...

A slight tangent... I'm sorry for seeming a little jaded here, but pro-ban "won" already, so let's be honest: if the character whose planking was demonstrably broken was, say, G&W or Pikachu, or better yet some low tier like Ike or Sheik, would you honestly think that LGLs are a terrible idea and that said character should be banned? I don't think so. And leaving aside the idea that G&W/DK/etc. genuinely do have broken planking (it's questionable with the actual frame data leaning towards "no"), this demonstrates that people are willing to ban a tactic, if not because it's demonstrably broken (like MK's planking), because it's demonstrably unattractive and gay. So in short, the argument is, with the current unity ruleset, illogical. And the reality mirrors the model: most people really have no problem at all with LGLs, even on characters like ROB, Samus, and Jiggs, who are not broken on the ledge but require it to function well-it's a necessary evil to keep the game in check. So the need for a LGL is probably not why MK was banned.

Oh yeah, and then there's the part that I left out:
"There are some who are against LGLs on principle. They are a tiny, insignificant minority, and if they had their way, nobody would want to play Brawl, period."

When I speak of MK being broken, I ignore the tactics that we banned. Like planking.

You have all the facts and data and limitations in your face and you still refuse to believe he is simply too good and bad for the game. Have fun banning him when everyone mains him so they quit after being forced to quit MK. Nice logic man.

Facts... Like that Europe has no MK problem? That Orion, a top MK player in NY/NJ before he moved, loses consistently to Mr R, and occasionally to Leon? That every MK that wins in the USA is a genuine top player and incredibly good at the game? That Ally was unwilling to use MK against Mr R at ñGamers after playing him in friendlies, and then beat him with secondaries? That the last true international tournament was won by a Falco, and that the last two MLGs were taken by two different Diddies?

MK is only banworthy if everyone ****ing plays him. This does not happen outside of the USA.

Actually, you know what? Japan. Your argument just died in a fire.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

That's kind of what we have here in Europe, too... Everyone is considering banning him, but nobody is actually ****ing thinking.

Stop spouting bull****, we get enough from you already and it's making our clothes dirty by now.

Nobody is seriously considering it except a few peeps from the UK, a scene that's pretty much entirely dead.
Besides that, there's Spain and partly Germany who both considered it even before America did it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It sucks to be the only rational part among people....


I've been thinking on the benefits of making a rule that do not allows people to play on the same stage twice in the same set: Is not only a plus to stage diversity, but practicality for TOs, because it would be easier to keep track of how many games they have played just by throwing a glance a couple times at each station and a little good memory, and avoid cases when people starts playing more than they should (personal experience).

 

[Life]

LOL at the irony of BPC using Japan as an argument.

And if most of the game's top players are using one character (albeit almost entirely top players of one nation), doesn't that also speak to the strength of said character, that said players decided learning him was the best route to victory?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Stop spouting bull****, we get enough from you already and it's making our clothes dirty by now.

Nobody is seriously considering it except a few peeps from the UK, a scene that's pretty much entirely dead.
Besides that, there's Spain and partly Germany who both considered it even before America did it.

I was under the impression that the only people not considering it were NL and AUS. Telouborg is giving the impression that the top TOs around there are in favor of the ban, spain is seriously thinking about it, and Germany is... well, we're Germany. If I'm wrong, then I apologize.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

So guys, enough rage about MK.

YI:B.

Needs to be banned.

 

[Akaku94]

So guys, enough rage about MK.

YI:B.

Needs to be banned.

 

[Orion*]

Stop spouting bull****, we get enough from you already and it's making our clothes dirty by now.

Nobody is seriously considering it except a few peeps from the UK, a scene that's pretty much entirely dead.
Besides that, there's Spain and partly Germany who both considered it even before America did it.

I thought france/spain was seriously considering it :|

Germany is but it's like mostly scrubs i could care less, most of the top players seem indifferent.

either way i doubt itll happen here anyway I'm not really worried about it. even if it does I have falco lol so whatever

 

[Supreme Dirt]

OK fine.

If we all agree that YI:B is a completely legitimate stage.

Pictochat and Warioware.

Need to be legalized.

 

[-LzR-]

The random rewards offered by Pictochat are totally comparable to YI:B, but not Wario Wave.

 

[WindMajor]

Don't forget about Green Greens.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

You can reasonably react to Green Greens though.


Also alternative to banning YI:B.

Force all matches played on the stage to be played on Fixed Camera mode.

Not preferable (to me, but I just want the stage banned) but solves the issue of being unable to see the ghosts popping up.

 

[Tesh]

I suggested that about Green Greens and people were like "oh but if u need special brawl for stage to be legal and herp derp screws up spacing".

I'd like to see YI:M tested at high level. I don't think pikachu and DDD would be a major issue. Not like DDD matters or pika has other great stages.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Not like DDD matters

Oh of course not... not like there's any Dedede mains -_-

 

[Tesh]

We should refocus on some educating the community about obscure stages. We need to work on some comprehensive competitive guides to stages that are "borderline". Both legal and illegal under Unity.

I'm talking GGs, Norfair, Brinstar, RC, Japes, YI:M etc. Its important that we offer up as much accurate info to those in charge.

 

[WindMajor]

If anything, I have the guide portion of Norfair already finished (just needs revising). The legality portion is all that's left for me to finish.

 

[infiniteV115]

You could probably add PTAD, Pirate Ship and Distant Planet to that list.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Y'know, at this point I seriously doubt on keep using Unity, no matter how much people here complain about my rules, it can't be any worse than a 13-stage list that keeps shrinking...

And YI:M is the one that people needs to know more about.

 

[Akaku94]

Definitely PTAD, Distant Planet, and possibly PS, though Pirate is only so-so for me...

 

[infiniteV115]

I wasn't trying to imply that they should be legalized, just that (like Tesh said) we need to educate the community on them. I haven't formed an opinion on any of them yet (because I'm uneducated about them).

At least with the ones Tesh mentioned, we get some DISCUSSION about their legality (although I haven't seen any discussion about YI:M). When it comes to PTAD, Distant Planet and Pirate Ship, most people just say "LOLWTFno" and that ends the discussion. Which is why almost nobody is educated on them. Which is why people say "LOLWTFno".

Hopefully we can get more people that are willing to do what Twinkie is doing with Norfair, except for these other stages.

 

[ぱみゅ]

If my english grammar weren't that terrible, I'd do a bigger write-up about YI:M...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The random rewards offered by Pictochat are totally comparable to YI:B, but not Wario Wave.

No.

YI:B's randomness is isolated, Pictochat's isn't. This is a very important distinction to make and I've explained this a billion times before.

A slight tangent... I'm sorry for seeming a little jaded here, but pro-ban "won" already, so let's be honest: if the character whose planking was demonstrably broken was, say, G&W or Pikachu, or better yet some low tier like Ike or Sheik, would you honestly think that LGLs are a terrible idea and that said character should be banned? I don't think so. And leaving aside the idea that G&W/DK/etc. genuinely do have broken planking (it's questionable with the actual frame data leaning towards "no"), this demonstrates that people are willing to ban a tactic, if not because it's demonstrably broken (like MK's planking), because it's demonstrably unattractive and gay. So in short, the argument is, with the current unity ruleset, illogical. And the reality mirrors the model: most people really have no problem at all with LGLs, even on characters like ROB, Samus, and Jiggs, who are not broken on the ledge but require it to function well-it's a necessary evil to keep the game in check. So the need for a LGL is probably not why MK was banned.

1. Incorrect. I would support the banning of any character with broken planking. Differentiating "planking" from a character's standard strategies is a 100% arbitrary distinction to make. The fact that Meta Knight is very powerful in other respects just adds icing to the cake.

2. It is not a necessary evil in the slightest. Tournaments with no ledge-grab limits were going fine before the Rich Brown incident and even afterwards.

Look at it this way, imagine if Falco's laser camping was so strong that once he got the lead no character could get past his lasers, would you impose a laser limit or ban Falco?

Oh yeah, and then there's the part that I left out:
"There are some who are against LGLs on principle. They are a tiny, insignificant minority, and if they had their way, nobody would want to play Brawl, period."

Nobody would want to play Brawl because they would have to learn to deal with a completely beatable, gay tactic in some match-ups? Are you saying that you would quit? If so, BPC you are a scrub.

 

[WindMajor]

Hopefully we can get more people that are willing to do what Twinkie is doing with Norfair, except for these other stages.

I've said this once, but I'll say it again.

It's better to tear apart stages from all angles in a group collaboration, instead of having one guy do it all alone.

Also, back up facts with evidence (videos, snapshots, Brawlbox stuff, etc.)