Stage Information Database and Q&A

[Grim Tuesday]

That is exactly what I'm saying, thankyou!

 

[WindMajor]

I can associate all that logic to almost any hazard in the game. It's called "capitalizing on an opportunity/hazard given by the stage".

Halberd.
Slow Falling Bomb
Location of the bomb: random
Safe Zones: anywhere but the bomb's path.
Safe Zones with an opponent: None

See what I mean? The bomb could've went ANYWHERE but one location and I wouldve been safe, but it just so happened to go to the only place where my enemy coulld capitalize on it, and I got screwed over by it. Cause of luck.

Same situation with PTAD.

Alternatively, I could just admit I messed up at a crucial moment and got outplayed.

The only argument he has is the whole frequency thing, but I still don't buy it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well frequency is the argument I am trying to make for Picto being banned, so it'd be good if you could explain why you don't buy it.

 

[-LzR-]

I agree with Twinkies points. Pictochat is a very popular stage in Finland and almost everyone knows how to play on the stage. We don't really get gimped by the line or anything. When to rockets appear, people don't just get hit when they are drawn, you can react to it, they just get outplayed and the opponent throws them in for punishment. While Pictochat is actually unpredictable, it gets more predictable the more you play. If you see the line appear, you can safely use the left ledge for the rest of the match knowing it won't be there again for the rest of the match (assuming 8 minutes).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th clips in this video show how much skill is required to play on Pictochat.

 

[-LzR-]

Half of those are stagespikes caused from the spikes appearing on the sides. This has never happened to me during my hundreds of matches in Pictochat. The rest are just using the hazards to your advantage with skill.
How is fthrowing your opponent into a rocket that has been there forever considered luck?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Half of those are stagespikes caused from the spikes appearing on the sides. This has never happened to me during my hundreds of matches in Pictochat.

Yet it happened to this person frequently enough that he showed it FOUR TIMES in one video.

You're just going to ignore that?

The rest are just using the hazards to your advantage with skill.
How is fthrowing your opponent into a rocket that has been there forever considered luck?

Herp a derp re-read my post

 

[-LzR-]

Sorry, I don't know, that stagespike thing has never happened to me even though half of our friendlies are played on Picto. Sorry, it must be so overcentralizing it happens all the time.
Read Twinkies post. The stage was empty. You know something will be drawn soon so you shouldn't risk it and do stuff. Play safe and wait for a drawing, then use it to your advantage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sorry, I don't know, that stagespike thing has never happened to me even though half of our friendlies are played on Picto. Sorry, it must be so overcentralizing it happens all the time.

Thanks for apologizing.

Read Twinkies post. The stage was empty. You know something will be drawn soon so you shouldn't risk it and do stuff. Play safe and wait for a drawing, then use it to your advantage.

There is no guarantee my opponent will play "safe" as well, he might try and capitalize on the chance of the spikes spawning if he is a worse player than me. If that was the case, he'd have nothing to lose (he'd lose if he did nothing) and everything to gain (he could win if luck was on his side).

I'd also like to know how you feel about "How Good is Zamz's Dedede"

 

[-LzR-]

That is a very extreme example that could be applied to several stages as well.
What would you think of a video where the YI ghosts save an opponent after a spike 5 times in a row?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Could you link me to such a video?

 

[-LzR-]

No, because I don't think that has ever happened, but it's totally possible, just like that Pictochat video, even though it has never happened to me during my countless hours of playing in Pictochat.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So you don't think it has ever happened, yet it takes me about 5 minutes to find around 10 situations where Pictochat randomly rewarded a player from only two different Youtube channels and a few matches.

This is what I'm talking about when I say frequency.

 

[-LzR-]

Can you then explain why it doesn't happen to me?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Probably because you are quite lucky.

I looked up your name on Youtube and didn't find a single Pictochat video, are you exaggerating how often you play on the stage?

 

[Ghostbone]

The stage-spiking spikes occurs all the time.

Idk how you've never had it happen to you, maybe you just forgot? Either that or you're insanely lucky.

 

[theunabletable]

See what I mean? The bomb could've went ANYWHERE but one location and I wouldve been safe, but it just so happened to go to the only place where my enemy coulld capitalize on it, and I got screwed over by it. Cause of luck.

okay there's like 10 minutes between when you see where the bomb is going, and when it finally explodes. This is an example where someone could see a lucky event, and use it to his advantage. Ksizzle gets a grab on Ally while seeing the bomb going towards the ground, and throws him into the bomb. Larry gets knocked offstage by M2K, and tries to recover on Picto. Oh dang, that weird / transformation appeared, guess he got gimped. Good **** M2K on that clever strategy.

Ksizzle used luck to his advantage, M2K got lucky.

If you get down to the fundamentals, you might end up just saying "but Ksizzle still used luck, so he just got lucky!" (you made a very similar statement in your post about getting unlucky because the bomb went to that place, so I applied it to this more personalized case. If you have an issue with how I represented the concept, let me know and I'll adjust ) but this kind of interpretation seems hardly useful, because it, seemingly intentionally, leaves out the important distinction (well probably several, but one definite one) between the two.

One was consciously intentional, the other... like I could elaborate if you want, but I trust that you understand what I'm getting at, and I'm too tired to think of the best words lol

The first one still kinda sucks, although it's definitely much more excuseable than the latter.

 

[-LzR-]

Probably because you are quite lucky.

I looked up your name on Youtube and didn't find a single Pictochat video, are you exaggerating how often you play on the stage?

We barely record matches on Youtube so I don't think it's weird for me to not have any matches there.

 

[Tesh]

Pictochat immensely skews risk/reward after decisions have been made. Those stage spikes are a great example. You fight close range with Diddy, the risk if getting grabbed at mid percents and tossed offstage. Suddenly AFTER you get grabbed, the risk changes. Its really just far too many variable in too many places to give people credit for lucky events.

You could make the same case for items if you think random things happening all over is okay.

 

[T-block]

Well what he might be saying, I don't really know but what I would say, is that the safe zone is so completely irrelevant in a real match, because when there's another player in the game, it removes the whole point of the safe zone.

Yeah if there wasn't an opponent, you could avoid all the hazards, but because there's an opponent, you're often forced into positions where SOMETIMES you're punished for making the smartest move, and SOMETIMES you are not.

That's not intelligent luck manipulation on your opponent's part, that's just luck.

You know what else is luck?

Whether Marth recovers against Sheik on YI:B when he can't quite make it to the edge =)

 

[Supreme Dirt]

You know what else is luck?

Whether Marth recovers against Sheik on YI:B when he can't quite make it to the edge =)

Or when Dedede gets ***** because the ghost decided to pop up when he had to super jump, and now COME GET ME I'M WAY ABOVE THE STAGE PLEASE **** ME.

@ Dirt
Wait, you want Halberd banned? Please don't say yes.
Or were you trying to see that both those criteria must apply to a stage's hazards and/or moving parts in order for it to be banned?

I'm saying both must apply, don't worry. As much as I hate that damn claw, it's just me being bad whenever it hits me.

Not really, you have 1/2 a second to react to the claw deciding to attack you.

lmao, but someone else covered this already.

Also because I'm me time for a list...

Stages auto-banned due to the "Dirt" criteria.

Both criteria must be met for a stage to be banned.

Criterion 1: Stage elements are not reasonably announced and random.
Criterion 2: Stage elements have the potential to "save" or "gimp" a character, definitions of which I have already explained.

Stage|#1|#2|Element in question
75m|No|Yes|Donkey Kong's springs, tiny fireballs
Battlefield|No|No|None, static stage
Bridge of Eldin|No|Yes|Bulblins, bomb, stage reforming
Castle Siege|No|Yes|Transformations, specifically fallthrough glitch
Delfino Plaza|No|Yes|Blastzone change, random transformations
Distant Planet|Yes|Yes|Big yellow thingy on the left side of the stage randomly opening it's mouth, eating people on top of it, etc.
Final Destination|No|No|None, static stage
Flat Zone 2|No|Yes|Everything... just everything
Frigate Orpheon|Yes|Yes|Side platforms on second transformation
Green Hill Zone|No|Yes|Checkpoints
Halberd|No|Yes|Bomb, laser, hook
Hanenbow|No|No|leaves move when hit
Luigi's Mansion|Yes|Yes|Highly conditional, floating platforms can save people, especially knocked horizontally
Lylat Cruise|No|Yes|Stage straightens out when transforming, tilting moves ledges
Mario Bros.|No|Yes|Enemies, fireballs
Mario Circuit|No|Yes|Cars
Mushroomy Kingdom|No|No|Static moving stage
New Pork City|Yes|Yes|Ultimate chimera
Norfair|No|Yes|Lava pillars, lava walls, lava floor
PictoChat|Yes|Yes|****ing everything
Pirate Ship|No|Yes|Rock, bomb tower, king of red lions, tornado
Pokémon Stadium 2|No|Yes|transformations, specifically Lucario can die on the electric transformation if he is using his side-B and goes offstage, going into special fall, and the wind allowing people to recover.
Port Town Aero Dive|No|Yes|Cars
Rumble Falls|No|Yes|SPEED UP!
Shadow Moses Island|Yes|Yes|Walls reforming
Skyworld|No|Yes|platforms breaking
Smashville|Yes|No|Balloons
Spear Pillar|No|Yes|lasers, physics changes, screen changes, cresseliarang
Summit|No|Yes|Fish, icicle spike
WarioWare, Inc.|No|Yes|****ing everything
Yoshi's Island|Yes|Yes|Support ghosts
Big Blue|No|No
Brinstar|No|Yes|Acid
Corneria|Yes|Yes|Laser cannon on the underside
Green Greens|No|Yes|Falling blocks
Jungle Japes|No|Yes|Klap Trap
Onett|No|Yes|Cars, runaway five van
Pokémon Stadium|No|No|Transformations
Rainbow Cruise|No|No
Temple|No|No|Static stage
Yoshi's Island|No|No|Mostly static stage

Thus, under those criteria, the following stages would be automatically banned:

• Distant Planet
• Frigate Orpheon
• Luigi's Mansion
• New Pork City
• Pictochat
• Shadow Moses Island
• Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
• Corneria

Now, I did this quickly, so there are likely some mistakes. Please point them out.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@Corneria: this is why I don't post here as much any more...

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Well first of all I'm not saying it's the only reason certain stages should be banned.

Second it doesn't really matter, Corneria's going to be banned regardless of the laser cannon.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Grim, if your ban criteria on Pictochat is frequency, can you define how much is too much?

 

[Life]

Don't see randomness of the Bulborb as a problem on DP. It's so far off to the side that it's rarely going to have an impact on gameplay unless the opponent is recovering to the right (and if you're worried about it happening, knock them to the left instead). IIRC there's also some sort of pattern to when it can appear (not sure exactly what, I'll have to go look up some data) making it even less likely to cause a save. (And if it eats you, you screwed up big time anyway.)

Basically, in terms of randomness, DP is Pictochat with only two transformations and much lower frequency.

Also, Frigate? Seriously? Randomness there matters only inasmuch as the matchup changes depending on whether it favors phase 1 or 2.

 

[Ghostbone]

Distant Planet's hazard is reasonably announced....you have the camera panning out before it even appears >.>

There should be a criteria for legality, that the hazards aren't biased towards a certain player, but whatever.

Oh and for the second criteria, I assume you mean that moving stage elements? Otherwise it's like, every stage has a ledge which can save you, or the stage itself which you can be hit into to spike you and gimp you.

For Smashville, would the balloon count as being able to gimp someone? (ie. Ness, Ike?)

And regarding Flat Zone, specifically the tamer transformation, don't they move up and down randomly? Idk if that counts as not having enough warning, but yea.

Also I'm wondering how the floating platforms on Luigi's Mansion save people >.> You mean from spikes?

And I'm fairly sure there's enough time to react to the chimera on NPC, or does it start biting immediately after the sound plays warning its appearance?

Are you sure the walls on Shadow Mosses are random? I mean I haven't tested the stage but it'd make more sense if they were on a timer which started the moment they were destroyed.

Also on Spear Pillar, you're given no time to react to the physics changes, or the stage being destroyed.

Wario Ware is similar to Pictochat, the stage transforms without any warning, causing the ledge to disappear (move downwards? Idk same thing, it kills recovering characters).

Idk about Green Greens not falling under the first criteria, because the blocks can be off-screen, either to the left/right or upwards, and have an effect.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It was a time I was able to tech tamers on reaction (not shield, tho), it was a cool but absolutely unnecessary skill I had for a very short amount of time before I stopped practicing it....

Also I'm wondering how the floating platforms on Luigi's Mansion save people >.> You mean from spikes?

You would need to be WAAAAAAY too high in order to be saved by a platform from a spike. Anyways, Im also unsure about what Dirt was talking about.

And I'm fairly sure there's enough time to react to the chimera on NPC, or does it start biting immediately after the sound plays warning its appearance?

You have some few frames to shield, but it causes an insane damage,iirc.....
in any case, you can ALWAYS tech it unless Chimera is on the upper-left platforms.

Idk about Green Greens not falling under the first criteria, because the blocks can be off-screen, either to the left/right or upwards, and have an effect.

Fixed Camera mode?

 

[T-block]

Pictochat arguments make me smile.

This board seems to get into one every three months or so lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You know what else is luck?

Whether Marth recovers against Sheik on YI:B when he can't quite make it to the edge =)

Frequency.

Grim, if your ban criteria on Pictochat is frequency, can you define how much is too much?

No, I can't.

I could make comparisons with Wario Ware, but everyone would shoot them down for the simple fact that it is Wario Ware, so I won't even bother.

 

[theunabletable]

You know what else is luck?

Whether Marth recovers against Sheik on YI:B when he can't quite make it to the edge =)

yeah, it's a good thing no one wants Yoshi's Island banned or else you'd have a real comparison there haha

 

[Ghostbone]

You have some few frames to shield, but it causes an insane damage,iirc.....
in any case, you can ALWAYS tech it unless Chimera is on the upper-left platforms.

Yea it gives like 300% or something ridiculous lol, but I always thought you could jump away from it before it could hurt you even if it spawned on you....

Fixed Camera mode?

If the camera is high enough so that the blocks won't be above the top of the screen, sure I guess.

But it's kinda annoying against say, Zelda and Sheik during their Up-b, as you can't tell where they're going. (I would include MK's down-b in that statement but....)


Ooo, I thought of a good comparison to Halberd's claw.
It's like if every 30 seconds or so, one character at random starts flashing and a gooey bomb appears on them (which will only stay stuck to them).
Sure they now have the warning that a gooey bomb is going to blow up on them in 5-10 seconds (or whatever the gooey bomb timer is)....that doesn't make it fair in the slightest. It's a random advantage given to the other player.

 

[WindMajor]

Well frequency is the argument I am trying to make for Picto being banned, so it'd be good if you could explain why you don't buy it.

Back to my first point, even though the transformations are "technically" random, it's reasonable to expect players to know how to react most, if not, all scenarios before the transformation even comes up. It's all about risk assessment.

If there is enough warning for a transformation to come up (~10 seconds of blank screen), and reasonable measures to stay away from them (large safe zone), I see nothing wrong with expecting players to use foresight to avoid getting negatively affected by any transformation in the stage, especially when only like 7 of 27 transformations can be remotely seen as a problem.

Again, you bring up frequency of random events being too much for competitive play. My argument is that although it's random, it's not random enough if there are so many warnings that you can predict it well enough to avoid it. Secondly, the amount of hazards that can be seen as a problem (negatively impact play in a major fashion) vary in numbers. Sometimes you'll see all 7 or 8 of those problematic transformations, and they'll somehow time themselves to come out at the worst possible moment, and other times you won't see a single one of them. The frequency can change a match quite well, but even if we were to put ourselves in the former situation I just stated, then I still don't think the frequency would be a problem. 7-8 instances for hazards to show and dramatically impact gameplay is nothing, especially when compared to YI:B or Norfair for example.

On another note, the safe zone gets bigger as time goes by because those troublesome transformations don't repeat.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Again: You can't just say "oh, stay away from the hazards, play safe, don't get hit" because your opponent might not be doing the same thing, which'll force you into a confrontation that could be decided by luck.

Read what Table said about the safe zone.

 

[WindMajor]

Is stage control not a skill we want to test anymore?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

SITUATION 1:
Player 1 gets stage control.
Player 2 is randomly hit or pressured by a hazard as it spawns because he doesn't have stage control.

SITUATION 2:
Player 1 gets stage control.
Player 2 attempts to take stage control from P1, both players fight which leads to one player randomly being hit or pressured by a hazard.

Now keep in mind how often the stage changes and that the majority of transformations can completely screw with momentum.

This is the exact same problem Wario Ware has. Players are constantly fighting to put their opponent in a position where they could maybe possibly might be punished or pressured.

 

[WindMajor]

The issue with Wario Ware is that you can get punished randomly for doing something right, not for doing something wrong. They aren't comparable.

And again, is stage control not a skill we want to test? Every time I read your arguments, I feel that they are more and more for banning hazards in general from every stage, or for removing randomness completely. The hazards are isolated. Their appearance is predictable. Which transformation? Random. Does it matter? No. Assume that any one of them will come up, and be prepared for it. When it comes up, adapt. Simple.

If you're against a random factor affecting the match, please look at YI:B (both the ghost and the Shy Guys), Frigate Orpheon, Halberd's bombs, Peach's turnips, DDD's SideB, etc.

If you're against the notion of control the stage or get punished, please look at Brinstar or PTAD for obvious examples.

Now keep in mind how often the stage changes and that the majority of transformations can completely screw with momentum.

Yes, I kept in mind how often. Are you going to make a point now, or do I have to keep the thought in mind that "I think major stage changes don't happen often enough" forever?

You're talking about frequency being your main factor, but you aren't backing it up with anything.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The issue with Wario Ware is that you can get punished randomly for doing something right, not for doing something wrong. They aren't comparable.

You never get punished for doing something right on Wario Ware, lol.

And again, is stage control not a skill we want to test? Every time I read your arguments, I feel that they are more and more for banning hazards in general from every stage, or for removing randomness completely. The hazards are isolated. Their appearance is predictable. Which transformation? Random. Does it matter? No. Assume that any one of them will come up, and be prepared for it. When it comes up, adapt. Simple.

Impossible. No one can prepare for every hazard that could appear as well as their opponent.

If you're against a random factor affecting the match, please look at YI:B (both the ghost and the Shy Guys), Frigate Orpheon, Halberd's bombs, Peach's turnips, DDD's SideB, etc.

If you're against the notion of control the stage or get punished, please look at Brinstar or PTAD for obvious examples.

These comparisons are as ridiculous as when people try and say "Oh, you want Meta Knight banned because he has no bad match-ups, so why don't we ban Pikachu in 64?" and you know it.

I have not said anything to indicate that I am against random factors affecting the match or the notion of stage control. I am against randomness heavily a match, that is all.

Yes, I kept in mind how often. Are you going to make a point now, or do I have to keep the thought in mind that "I think major stage changes don't happen often enough" forever?

You're hilarious.

You're talking about frequency being your main factor, but you aren't backing it up with anything.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CnEd8Rxepw
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdL6DHvmE7U
www.youtube.com/watch?v=peEqNVAp1xg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcZwc8g5KcU
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWWw-fYM0WI

 

[ぱみゅ]

You never get punished for doing something right on Wario Ware, lol.

One gets much more rewarded for doing the same thing as the opponent, at the same time, and both are the right ones.
On Picto, one is already capitalizing a punish, and throws the dice trying to increase their reward.

Impossible. No one can prepare for every hazard that could appear as well as their opponent.

But you can prepare for the worst one(s) depending on the position you are currently at.
If there's an scenario where you can't avoid them is most likely because opponent put you in a bad position.

I have not said anything to indicate that I am against random factors affecting the match or the notion of stage control. I am against randomness heavily a match, that is all.

Again, "how much is too much" is subjective.
You think Picto crosses the "acceptable" limit, I think it does not.


Oh, and the videos are nice and all, but they prove nothing but the fact that the strategy is in effect.

 

[theunabletable]

On Picto, one is already capitalizing a punish, and throws the dice trying to increase their reward.

No, they aren't.

Not one person has ever thrown a Falco offstage and thought to himself "Oh cool, I made a good punish, and now if I get really lucky, the stage'll gimp him and it'll be an even better punish!" No one has ever intentionally gimped a Falco with the / transformation.

But you can prepare for the worst one(s) depending on the position you are currently at.
If there's an scenario where you can't avoid them is most likely because opponent put you in a bad position.

You can learn to count the seconds on Jungle Japes if you'd like, I'll be over here learning how to not suck dick.
~HugS

 

[WindMajor]

You never get punished for doing something right on Wario Ware, lol.

Player A completes mini-game.
Player B completes mini-game.
Player A gets awarded with a star.
Player B gets "awarded" by being a huge target against an invincible enemy.

Impossible. No one can prepare for every hazard that could appear as well as their opponent.

Not what I was saying. You can prepare for transformations that heavily effect the match negatively (ie. ones with hazards, the line and wind transformation, etc). by staying within a zone that's away from all of them. Yes, a certain zone exists for this, and as time goes by, the area grows.

That's not to say that you can prepare to never be affected by every transformation ever. Other transformations can affect you, but the effects are so subtle that they are non-issues. Simply "adapting" will cover it in terms of legality.

You can't escape being "affected" by the stage in any stage for that matter.

These comparisons are as ridiculous as when people try and say "Oh, you want Meta Knight banned because he has no bad match-ups, so why don't we ban Pikachu in 64?" and you know it.

I have not said anything to indicate that I am against random factors affecting the match or the notion of stage control. I am against randomness heavily a match, that is all.

The way you word your arguments doesn't give me that impression, which is why I mentioned it.

You're hilarious.

Semantics are my thing.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CnEd8Rxepw
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdL6DHvmE7U
www.youtube.com/watch?v=peEqNVAp1xg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcZwc8g5KcU
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWWw-fYM0WI

I didn't see an issue with any of these tbh. They're silly (especially the first one, lmao), but they all could have been avoided. Also, there is still no mention of frequency. You have instances where questionable things happen, but you don't compare them to how many times incidents like these get passed up.