Squirtleknight is obnoxious obv :012:. - Marth+

[Dark Sonic]

I DO!!!.

Defensive moves are lame <_< I want my 5 frame move with obscene kill power back!

 

[VietGeek]

Cool ****, so I'm sure we can make the sweetspot bigger then shift it back a bit, but how far back should we shift it? There's actually a reverse hitbox that sends at 74 degrees. Are we gonna enlarge it and change its stats?

Also does Leaf want more base added to the sourspot hits or something?

If I don't get an answer that's cool, I'll just do my own **** and let you guys look at it later. ^^

I tried to move invincibility to frame 5 but idk how well that worked out lol.

 

[leafgreen386]

Cool ****, so I'm sure we can make the sweetspot bigger then shift it back a bit, but how far back should we shift it? There's actually a reverse hitbox that sends at 74 degrees. Are we gonna enlarge it and change its stats?

Well, if there's already a reverse hitbox, then I suppose just make it bigger, and if it doesn't already, make it hit behind him (and otherwise having the same good kb of the primary strong hit). I don't remember there ever being a notable hitbox behind him, though.

Also does Leaf want more base added to the sourspot hits or something?

JYES! And for the tip to send about five degrees lower than it does now. His upB should be safe on hit after this... any hit.

I tried to move invincibility to frame 5 but idk how well that worked out lol.

Hopefully well? lol

In a worst case scenario, we could just completely remove the invincibility from the move.

 

[GHNeko]

Why am I the only one who likes the defensive DS lmao.

 

[Demacrez]

At least give one hit from DS a spike. It demands it!

 

[GHNeko]

**** it Demacrez, you broke the gRAPE name combo. >:

 

[Shaya]

Make a move that has more lag and is more punishable than Marth's dair in vbrawl an offensive move?

ionoooo~

 

[leafgreen386]

Make a move that has more lag and is more punishable than Marth's dair in vbrawl an offensive move?

ionoooo~

Well, the new version will be designed around helping edgeguarding, not necessarily onstage uses, although I suppose you still could use it as a last ditch onstage kill move onstage. Since you'd be using it in edgeguarding, you should be going for the ledge afterward, which will help mitigate any lag problems that might come up.

 

[GHNeko]

Make a move that has more lag and is more punishable than Marth's dair in vbrawl an offensive move?

ionoooo~

At least I know I'm not alone. <_>

Can't we find a medium for the move. <_>

Invicible on 1-2, 5, slightly buffed KB on sweetspot . Dunno about the backwards hitbox + added base to weaker hitboxes.

 

[leafgreen386]

At least I know I'm not alone. <_>

Can't we find a medium for the move. <_>

Invicible on 1-2, 5, slightly buffed KB on sweetspot . Dunno about the backwards hitbox + added base to weaker hitboxes.

No. That defeats the whole purpose. It's not even an offensive move at all when you do that; it's just a worse version of the original defensive move.

The move doesn't even really need invincibility at all, but I figure may as well throw the dog a bone on this one and let him keep invinc on the first hit frame, like it was in melee. The backwards hitbox serves as an added gimp tool, while the increased base on the weaker hits makes the move both safe on hit and also helps his edgeguarding game. If you can manage to secure four frames where you can act before your foe hits you, you can still use the move defensively if you really want to, it just won't be an automatic get out of jail free card if you happen to have one frame you're not in hitstun for.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm totally going to fear Peach Jab > Grab now. lmao.

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm totally going to fear Peach Jab > Grab now. lmao.

Well, if you could upB out of it before, I wouldn't be surprised if you could still upB out of it. As long as you leave hitstun before you hit the ground, anyway. Since upB is a special, it should continue even if marth hits the ground during it, which will end up negating some of the "stun" you normally receive from the jab. The main reason jab -> grab works (in general) is that every character in the game suffers a landing animation when they hit the ground, regardless of whether or not they were in hitstun (and if they were in hitstun, they finish the hitstun and then enter the landing animation). So while many jabs will actually cause you to leave hitstun before hitting the ground, you don't have enough time to throw out an aerial before you do, essentially making the very limited nonstun time, as well as the landing animation time, a part of the "stun time."

Not to mention... why are you letting a peach get close enough to jab -> grab you in the first place?

 

[VietGeek]

btw leaf...when you said:

"Uthrow 60 growth -> 50 growth, 120 base -> 110 base"

I think you meant:

"Uthrow 60 base -> 50 base, 120 growth -> 110 growth"

Because Parameter 4 is KBG, and Parameter 6 is BKB. ._.

I'll try 100 base and 40 growth. <_<

 

[GHNeko]

Not to mention... why are you letting a peach get close enough to jab -> grab you in the first place?

Because peach fair spam with AC + ALR is ********. :V

 

[leafgreen386]

btw leaf...when you said:

"Uthrow 60 growth -> 50 growth, 120 base -> 110 base"

I think you meant:

"Uthrow 60 base -> 50 base, 120 growth -> 110 growth"

Because Parameter 4 is KBG, and Parameter 6 is BKB. ._.

I'll try 100 base and 40 growth. <_<

...

Right.

K, well, imo try 50 base and 80 growth, then. I know 50 base won't CG falcon, so you really just need to make sure the growth works.

Because peach fair spam with AC + shieldstun is ********. :V

Fix'd. ALR doesn't do anything when a move already AC'd. The reason fair is so beast now is because of the raised shieldstun.

 

[GHNeko]

Well, I was just pointing out the 2 methods of which makes fair ********.

Also....weren't we supposed to lower the shield stun a bit but mixed up BKB and Damage?

 

[jalued]

after trying out the new nightly, marth feels wierd, heavy. can i possibly get a summary on why the changes happened and what direction you are intending to go with marth

waht is the dancing blade changes for? why has the timing been changed? has the range been shortened at all? etc etc lol

 

[GHNeko]

:V

Heavy you say?

The general idea was to make Marth combo better and get comboed as well.

Also. 3/4 speed dancing blade changes the timing?

<_<

faaaaillll. Can we get the old nerfed dancing blade back?

 

[jalued]

:V

Heavy you say?

The general idea was to make Marth combo better and get comboed as well.

Also. 3/4 speed dancing blade changes the timing?

<_<

faaaaillll. Can we get the old nerfed dancing blade back?

well it did make the whole side B to aid recovery a bit hazadous,. as the timing is different, so u sometimes end up doing the second DB part, and hence SDing...

 

[GHNeko]

Yea. The speed up needs to be removed in exchange for its damage nerfs. V:

 

[Dark Sonic]

Hmm, I think it'd be better if only it's startup lag of the first hit was increased (that's really the only part that makes it ridiculous anyway), and not played at 3/4th speed the whole time. Shanus probably didn't realize that slowing down the move drastically increases the input window for individual slashes (which was pretty big to begin with)

 

[GHNeko]

The move wasnt even ridiculous. What are you talking about? Altering the start up will ruin tactics based of the first swipe of DB. Just bring it back to it was and leave it like that,

 

[Dark Sonic]

no, I meant pre-nerf is was ridiculous (when I was playing Leaf's Marth set it was the unaltered version <_<). Maybe we should just try the damage nerfs with compensated KB?

 

[GHNeko]

Please. <_>

 

[VietGeek]

no, I meant pre-nerf is was ridiculous (when I was playing Leaf's Marth set it was the unaltered version <_<). Maybe we should just try the damage nerfs with compensated KB?

Then just take out the frame speed mod.

I already did all the tedious work. <_<

 

[timothyung]

Only the first hit of DB is slowed down... and it was done mostly to make it slightly more punishable
And DS after that isn't that hard either. Just time the DS slightly later

 

[GHNeko]

The first hit of DB shouldnt be slowed down as the move is punishable enough. <_>

 

[timothyung]

The first hit of DB shouldnt be slowed down as the move is punishable enough. <_>

Forward b 1
Hit: 4-7
End: 30

22 frames of wind down...

I agree with you Neko.

 

[VietGeek]

Actually all frames of DB are slowed down. When it means "Side-Special" it literallys does not discriminate in that sense . =V

It nerfs his recovery, boosts his punishment game WHEN you use DB, and it slows down the entire move starting frame 0...

It's a very whack looking move now though. It kinda looks epic. =X

But eh, I got other things to work on...including homework. You guys find a more suitable nerf since compensation brings back all the old shieldstun on it. <_<

So now it's not as good...but still good. Not like before where it was slowly going toward mediocrity. ;(

You guys like the DB compensations? DBD3 actually works as a GTFO move again. And DBD4 connects better since it was fully compensated except for the last hit.


I plan to build a near-final test build in regards to Marth tomorrow.

Expect:

Attempt to get fsmash to match animation (mostly tip enlargement...work out the kinks of that later rofl).

Attempt to get utilt front end animation to match:

LOL...3D hitboxes...failure imo.

And attempt to make a professional/authentic feeling Dolphin Slash reversal for those olde Maylay style gimps from the oriental. =V

And possibly the final Uthrow mod we have to make.

 

[grim mouser]

Thank you, THANK YOU for noticing the u-tilt hitbox problem. For a while I thought I was just spacing it really badly. It always annoys me when I see the slash go through someone on a platform, but not hit them. @_@

 

[Demacrez]

Yeah, I realized that as well. I thought maybe that's how it was suppose to be and was gonna say something about it.

 

[timothyung]

Actually all frames of DB are slowed down. When it means "Side-Special" it literallys does not discriminate in that sense . =V

Actually, it's the first hit only. Just try it yourself...especially Down Finale

 

[Bube_Marth]

Hey guys, I tried out the Brawl+ [5.0] 30 minutes ago. First check was going to Marth of course.
Horrible. Marths first slash of side B feels like a Bowser move.. Brother 4 stocked me because I did the second slash of side B instead of up B, what is that good for? The move was good for stun the opponent for grab him or give him a fast up B (Up B is nerfed too!!). And now it's only good to trigger the side B combo, WHY?? Again the question, what is all that stuff good for? nerfing him AGAIN? Cool down guys, he is low now, we made it -.-
I dont feel like playing a Marth who can use his B moves in just one way.

Positive is only one thing, the air combos are connectable now better and the ken combo seems to work easier now.

Please, I beg you! Dont overdo it with the Marth changes.

 

[timothyung]

Although that thing you mentioned shouldn't happen with a bit of practice, I agree the slow down is unnecessary

 

[Bube_Marth]

agreed, with practice it will work, but I have to prepare for more changes in b+ 5.1 so I have to practice again, and again, and again and again. Marth is the character who is changed the most from all. I cant feel negative changes in the other characters, just in Marths gameplay. I am playing almost all characters a bit here and there.. and they are all positive changed for brawl+.

 

[shanus]

well odds are you won't see much more changed in marth except for fixing the sideB, and I believe polishing up the upB and a bit more.

 

[Mattnumbers]

(Up B is nerfed too!!)

I'm pretty sure they buffed Up B to kill better, so really removing invincibility was a tradeoff that worked with his recovery weakness.

 

[Demacrez]

Did you guys slow down his U-Tilt? I noticed I couldn't do the combo SH, F-Air, U-Air, U-Tilt, and then U-Air. I'm able to do the SH, F-Air, U-Air but once that I get this lag where I can't perform U-Tilt in time.

 

[Dark Sonic]

We SHOULDN'T have slown down his uptilt.

Perhaps uair is missing it's ALR (Mario's fair was missing it's ALR as well), giving you too much lag after it?

 

[timothyung]

Utilt speed up is not working in the newest nightly.