Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Jim Morrison]

80:20 Falco, because Falco is top tier and Sonic should be bottom.

 

[Browny]

Falco: +5 (Hes top tier, chaingrab, lazors, jab, spikes us out of spring, fsmash is so powerful)
Sonic: +5 (Hes fast)

so.. 25:75 Falco

 

[da K.I.D.]

matchup numbers are ********, stop using them,

also, we NEED to discuss methods to get around the problem that is game and watch


we only need 5 ways to conclude on a matchup. very hard, hard, disadvantaged, even, and easy, since theres no very easy matches for sonic

 

[ROOOOY!]

I wouldn't say there's any very hard match-ups either.

Disadvantaged would be characters like Snake and MK.
Hard are more the 35:65 characters like Lucario and Ganon Gaymenwatch.
Very hard = ???

If we're going by your scale anyways KID.

 

[Chis]

Anyways, do I put Sonic and Mario as 50:50 or what?

 

[chaoechidna]

no i think mario has up on sonic. that fireball stops us pretty quickly. plus he's got a lot of priority in the air. 50:55 mario perhaps? sorry if this has all been said already...

 

[Kinzer]

Me and this Mario player go pretty even when we fought, sure I lost but hey that's just the player/s.

I was getting 2-3stocked by the same guy months ago.

 

[Camalange]

I say for Mario 55:45 Mario. Which is essentially even, but whatevs.


And do people really have so much problems with Lolcario? I must need to find better Lucarios or somethin.

 

[Kuraudo]

That's much easier said than done.

However I wouldn't remember, SK92 keeps using Meta Knight on me.

Oh I do it, s'not just words. XD I wouldn't be saying just back throw and read them into an FSmash if I didn't do that constantly to Falcos.

That's because Falco has a better chance at losing against a good Sonic then MK does. XD; Smart move by SK92. ...still homo though. LOL

 

[Kinzer]

? I don't think I might be reading you right.

Are you suggesting that Falco is an easier MU than MK. I hope you're not, that's not the case, Falco is probably 6:4, whereas MK only has a 55:45 advantage.

I really have no idea why he goes MK on me, for one Falco has a better advantage. Two, he is suppose to be better with Falco, because he's spent more time playing with him and claiming to still main him.
He really doesn't have any reason not to use Falco either, I know this because I always bring him down to the last stock at ~100% with MK, whereas he consistently 2-3stocks me with Falco. I'm probably very horrible @ the MU but of course I will be since MK is much more common in the tourney scene.

I'll take your word for that B-Throw -> read Fsmash thing though.

 

[Chis]

What's with Sonic's saying MK and Sonic are even?

 

[Kuraudo]

Call me crazy, but yeah. I'm suggesting that Falco is way easier then MK is to face. I face both MK and Falco often as Sonic, and when you have more experience with the match-up of Falco, you'll see for yourself. MK is just an absolute pain. Falco's laser camp game doesn't do too much if you just ignore the fact you'll take 5/10% damage by just running towards him and going close quarters. Avoid the DSmash/Bair/Grab and Sonic's doing alright up close. Falco has the inconvenience of not being as quick on the draw as MK is with his tactics I feel. I can beat Falco and when I do lose, it's often to the last stock.

I say it's more or less, match-up experience against Falco that you need. I'd much rather use Sonic against a Falco then I would use Dedede. That's how confident I am in the match-up. In the end, I guess it all boils down to when the bigger names say that their match-ups are 50:50 based upon their skill. Experience with the match-up and the knowledge of their character in that match-up and what style it takes to win.

Catch an opponent stupidly enough, and you could actually back throw them off the stage, let them Side B back on, catch them in a grab, up throw, read into the UAir. If they DI in front of you, Fair. Behind you? Bair. Some nice damage there. And all it takes is enough distance to get the Falco off the stage and you can have the stock.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I think they're both even if you know how to switch your style up.

And I mean like... both equally as hard not we go even. We don't. If you think MK is 55:45 Sonic for any reason you're either on drugs or playing MK's who refuse to be "cheap"

 

[Kuraudo]

Sonic going stale is a major reason behind him losing. So mixing it up is mandatory. Yes. One of the best things we got going for us against an MK is Springing on command against Up B's, and escaping the tornado with enough DI and the spring. Hahah. And FSmash killing the lighter character.

But yeah, anyway. Mario. ... Uh. 50:50 or 55:45 Mario. Lol

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Oh yeah...Mario.... same ratios as everyone else. Basically even. He affects our mobility a bit but we don't really fall to his stupid combos. It's like anyone else vs. Mario or anyone else vs. Sonic but slower.

 

[Tenki]

One of the best things we got going for us against an MK is Springing on command against Up B's,

Do you mean dropping a spring when you're above MK, reading one? Or just in general?

Because all of Sonic's aerials outprioritize or clang with Glide Attack so if you shield the initial up-B (ex: on the ledge), you can just jump a F-air into him and get more damage xD

 

[Kinzer]

What's the damage of MK's glide?

Because I always happen to get outprioritized GDI. :/

 

[infomon]

I think it does 11?

You're just mistiming/misspacing it. The glideattack comes out fast, so you gotta be ahead of it.

 

[Kinzer]

No it's not that, I'm spacing and timing my Fairs right.

If that's the case though, then that's due to my weak Fair hits not even doing 1% damage, stupid moveset decay!

How would Nair work? That's almost never decayed and I think even the weakest hit can still clank with MK's G-air, right?

 

[Tenki]

How would Nair work? That's almost never decayed and I think even the weakest hit can still clank with MK's G-air, right?

It'll clang.

But since it's not a multi hit attack, it'll have no hitbox so it's really more of a defensive move vs glide attack, if anything.

 

[Kinzer]

If it clangs, that's all that counts.

 

[da K.I.D.]

fair has more than one hit, so it will always beat glide attack if they come out at the same time, so if glide attack is beating your fair, its because youare being slow on the fair

 

[Kinzer]

No...

Allow me to refer to a thread made by yours truly:

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=87466

I know it's old and I'll probably have to redo it/have somebody help me on some of this, but from what I've tested, failed to accomplish even in-tourney play, and can for the most part confirm, it's highly unlikely that you're Fair will be fresh enough to compete with MK's G-air save for the last hit.

That's with every single hit of Fair BTW, including the lesser hits, and they only add up if they all connect. From what I hear MK's G-air does about 11% damage, though it might be closer to 12%, the game does not display any decimals. His G-Air is only out for a short amount of time, so unless you can really time that last hit of Fair, usually you will be competing with the weaker hit of Fair, which from the data I gathered won't even do about 1 display percent. This is very horrible when you want to punish him and you in-turn get punished for trying to compete with this, you would be much better off using Nair since it comes out about 1 frame slower than Fair IIRC, is fresh, deals more damage per hit, and with the way MK's Gair works, provides you with a complete shield that will almost never be decayed and still give you much more freedom to react than MK having done a G-Air after he's SLed or a considerable distance in the air.

 

[Tenki]

Kinzer

Okay

how about VSDJ (ala umby)

or U-air.

>__>;

 

[~TBS~]

Yeah, Tenki, i just did that at a tourney. VSDJ clangs with a glide. But uair can also go through it AFAIK. I was surprised at VSDJ having that much priority...or it just being plain weird.

 

[Tenki]

It's not Sonic's moves having priority as MK's Glide Attack sucking lol.

 

[Chis]

I'll edit GS's posts with your guides. So feel free to post them

 

[JayBee]

yo chis when did you become a mod? im too slow.

 

[Kazz@]

I belive I can give some input on this.

I happen to play MK, but only if I'm going against top tier/pros.

So, MK's GA does suck, but only if you can time a retreating nair, because he's probably gonna Dsmash right afterwards. After that, you can just Shield grab and continue to grab release him.

 

[Camalange]

We have Marth as 65:35 soft counter? lolwhut?

Where was I for that? That needs to be changed to 60:40 imo. I'm unsure about GaW being a soft counter, I've only played a couple (one being Hylian) but maybe we could go over that. Or someone could just tell me why that matchup is so hard for Sonic.

There's no convincing me though that Marth is past 60:40. Because it's not.

 

[Kinzer]

I belive I can give some input on this.

I happen to play MK, but only if I'm going against top tier/pros.

So, MK's GA does suck, but only if you can time a retreating nair, because he's probably gonna Dsmash right afterwards. After that, you can just Shield grab and continue to grab release him.

Lovely thing about that, usually if we didn't get hit by the initial hit of SL, they're going to be too high to not try to G-Air us, they either eat the aerial/whatever then or they get punished later.

G&W is crazy hard, Marth is... somewhat to to the same degree, I think it's fine as it is until we can get more proof that Marth isn't as hard as he should be.

Espy V.s RoyR was awesome, but I wanna see if we can be a bit more consistent.

Unless you can convince me that Marth isn't as hard as I am making him out to be before tomorrow.

 

[Syde7]

Hai thar. The ROB boards are doing Sonic this week as it seems our boards have been intermingling as of late. So, come on over and talk about the matchup if you'd like.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7697813#post7697813

 

[Darth Waffles]

...And update the older stage discussion/counterpick thread here which says to ban Lylat against ROB. =P ROBs rarely ever counterpick lylat anyway, maybe against a space animal for the edges, but the short horizontal blast zones hurt ROB's game more than the high ceiling helps him- I'd personally go Japes if possible, then frigate or FD

 

[Camalange]

Yeah all of our threads kinda need a revamp...lol

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

There's No Convincing Me Though That Marth Is Past 60:40. Because It's Not.

THANK YOUUUUUU!


I want caps. :/

 

[Kuraudo]

We have Marth as 65:35 soft counter? lolwhut?

Where was I for that? That needs to be changed to 60:40 imo. I'm unsure about GaW being a soft counter, I've only played a couple (one being Hylian) but maybe we could go over that. Or someone could just tell me why that matchup is so hard for Sonic.

There's no convincing me though that Marth is past 60:40. Because it's not.

Neutral Air, DTilt, Fair, Side B (for everyone really), grab release attacks that are easy to be psyched into (especially Up B kill moves)

I agree that it's 60:40 for Marth, but Sonic can just get ***** in that match. One of the best Marths I've seen in this game lives in Alberta with me and we play a lot, and even with knowing the match-up it's just so ridiculous. What do you do? LOL You can win with enough patience. I'd be content with the statistic of 65:35 for Marth against Sonic, if only for the fact that personally, I find that it's true. I can win it, it's just so...frustrating.

KillLock isn't biased with his characters, so you can ask him as a Marth main (the guy I was talking about), and ask him why the match-up is so hard for Sonic users to begin with. I'd rather face Falco or Peach then Marth by a LONG shot. Sometimes I even would rather play an MK then Marth, but it depends on how I feel. Lol

Hey, personal experience aside, both 65:35 and 60:40 can be reasonable to me. Either way, the chances of you losing are way better in this match-up. Ignoring statistics, it's just something you don't wanna try and invest in.

 

[Umby]

Not sure how I feel about Sonic vs Marth. Sonic has all the tools to push it to 60:40 Marth, but it's just too easy for Sonic to get messed up in this match.

I suppose the best way to explain it is that Sonic has numerous openings in Marth's game that he can exploit at any given time, yet they are often hard to see, and sometimes bait in the correct manner. In retrospect, Marth is shutting down most your favorite offensive options until you figure out how you're supposed to handle him. FHFF Fair can start up especially dangerous mixups, and turns Sonic's own Bait and Punish game against him.

 

[Kuraudo]

See? Royal pain in the ***. LMAO

 

[Browny]

idk what to think about marth

first i play vs the best marth in this country and beat him with sonic :D and then last tournament I was taken to high % last stock, game 3 by a marth main who doesnt even have a wii... He only plays brawl at tourneys, no friendlies. 100% melee lol. Idk what to make of it. first im like, matchup johns. but this guy is incredibly good at reading people etc but has very little brawl tech skill or knowledge (still l cancels!).

However I still think marth could possibly be 35:65. Lucario is another step-up though. so keeping things relative and not wanting to say sonic has any 30:70s i guess ill have to go with 40:60... (36:64 imo )

 

[Chis]

The Yoshi boards are covering Sonic now. It would be nice if some of you could help the discussion, here's the link: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230949