Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Tenki]

I don't understand how you guys came along to a Sonic advantage in the first place lol. I missed the whole discussion ._.;

 

[Kinzer]

Read the Kirby boards lol.

I need much moar Kirby experience.

 

[Camalange]

It basically resulted from a set I had with Allied, a pretty well known Kirby player. Quite frankly he had my believing it might actually be Sonic's favor, but now I just think he wasn't playing the matchup right.

I say it's even.

 

[Tenki]

How often have you played Allied?

If it was a one match deal then he might not have known the matchup lol.

The progression usually goes like this:

- MU feels good for Sonic (first few rounds)
- MU becomes a little more realistic (alot of games)

then there's the holy grail of MU knowledge when you (and your opponent) both know each other's characters really well lol. Then you start to get into things like camping for Sonic's spring vulnerability window with D-air > footstool and stuff. lol

 

[Camalange]

We played a set of 3. But he's also played against Kaiber Kop (Kai) in tournament so he knows Sonic pretty well and believes its 55:45 Sonic :/

I gotta play him some more in the future to settle things out more.

 

[JayBee]

Told ya. It's WAAYY too good. And you can't tell me they don't deserve it. I actually got the idea from what people said about BOKU. If we decided to just run timers all day we'd be top tier.

i agree. we should do that more often, not like wario, but not be so eager to attack, attack, attack. especially since they would be used to that style, it would throw them off when you become mad defensive.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sonics are fast, they don't want to wait 8 mins for a win.

 

[Chis]

Can we talk about Mario now?

 

[Kuraudo]

I haven't played any Mario mains here in Alberta (kinda sucks), so it's hard for me to say. Only experience I've had is WiFi but that should never be a factor anyway. LMAO

Apart of me thinks that Sonic's got the advantage here though... His range seems longer, especially on his SS FSmashes, Bair and such... Yeah I got nothing. Sorry. Lmao

Any Mario experts willing to shed light on the plumber?

 

[Browny]

when i read the thread title for this matchup thread, I got some horrible shivers down my spine.

probably because its freezing here at 2.00AM at the moment, but something else has me scared

 

[Kuraudo]

... You're in Australia and you're cold (yes I know it's night for you there right now. my sis lives there ). Boy, you wouldn't last five seconds in Canada. LMFAO!!! What has you scared??

 

[Browny]

Since youre new here i guess my subtle clues are worthless

The last time Sonic v Mario was discussed, it was the single worst matchup discussion ive ever seen. Mods had to come in to stop all the flaming and im sure lots of infractions were given out lol

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

60-40 SONIC BECAUSE HIS GAMES ARE BETTER LOLOLZORZ!!!!111111

I kid, I kid. First off, I'm not going to claim to be all knowing on this matchup. Mario's are pretty rare. Especially good ones. I wonder why :3? JK <3 On a more serious note, some of Mario's best assets seem to go out the window when fighting Sonic. He can't juggle him, and has a hard time following up on attacks. He also should never expect time gimp Sonic. Mario seems better off staying safe on the stage, and throwing out fireballs on an offstage Sonic. Or waiting, and punishing his return once he comes back on stage.

Mario's B-air is pretty darn fast, and has pretty decent priority. If Sonic plays too aggressive, he's going to get smacked around by that a lot. You can outspace it with Sonic's B-air though, and it stays out longer iirc. Mario's N-air is probably another good option. It's a pretty useful sex kick against Sonic. Mario's aerials come out pretty darn fast, so they can seem annoying at first. Well, except for F-air. I assume that move should never be used against Sonic.

Like in most matchups, Sonic is probably at the biggest advantage when he's underneath Mario. I don't think any of Mario's moves are going to beat out U-air. If somehow I'm wrong about this, lol please correct me. I kind of doubt that though. I'm bored of typing stuff, so I may edit this later. Only other thing I feel like mentioning is that Mario's U-smash is much more disjointed than it looks, and F-smash has decent range as well. I still think Mario has serious problems killing Sonic, and racking up damage, since he doesn't ever seem to be at a true advantage. I'd go as far as to say 60-40 Sonic. But with enough complaining, I assume this will be another matchup we say eh, whatever 55-45.

 

[Chis]

Didn't Cam beat Boss' Mario? Or was it his Weegee?

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

I think his Mario. Same goes for Shado I think.

 

[Camalange]

I beat Boss's Mario, yes. I say either even or slightly Mario's advantage (50-50/55-45 Mario)

Fireballs are really good at slowing Sonic down, which ruins his momentum, but Mario's throw/juggle tricks don't really work against Sonic. However, his basics like disjointed and quick smashes, bair, and nair make him tough.

It's an odd matchup, they kinda counter eachother out, lol. It's hard to describe cuz I only got the chance to play Boss once :/

All I know is Boss was able to even out the match after I got an early gimp on him. Speaking of gimp, it's actually kinda hard to gimp Mario, lol. His UpB is quick, REALLY DISJOINTED >_>, and has a lot of priority.

I'm pulling for 50-50. Mostly becuase Mario doesn't wreck Sonic in any area, and Sonic doesn't wreck Mario in any area. There are certain parts where Mario beats Sonic...then at other areas Sonic beats Mario. But only slightly. It's funny how the two all-stars balance eachother out ^_^

 

[aeghrur]

Since youre new here i guess my subtle clues are worthless

The last time Sonic v Mario was discussed, it was the single worst matchup discussion ive ever seen. Mods had to come in to stop all the flaming and im sure lots of infractions were given out lol

Wasn't that Sonic v Lucario?
Sonic v Mario wasn't THAT bad.

 

[Kinzer]

I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually talking about the tier positions.

 

[Browny]

oh yeah thats the one

 

[Tenki]

Mario's like, a Luigi-lite. Slower, kills later, but some of the problems remain to a less-threatening extent.

His aerials are quick, decently beat out a bunch of Sonic's aerials, and sort of juggle but not really.

My main issue with him is that his landing lag is low :/

 

[Jim Morrison]

Cape is stupid, because it doesn't work on our recovery. Snake got nuffin' on us <_<

 

[JayBee]

last time i checked, marios quicker aerials made up for the fact that we can out range him with moves like bair, i dont know about his dair though. his tilts and aerials (falling0 work well together but since he lacks multiple killing options, and since bair will hace to be used against us often to prevent us from rushing him at will, his only method of killing sonic would have to be Fsmash, Upsmash, and gimping. Fsmash has no reliable setup, it has to be mindgamed. Mario will almost never gimp a sonic, his recovery is too good and cape does nothing but give him more upb's to work with. Up smash is the best option for him overall, but because it takes setup and sonic failing at recovery or during the edgegaurd when he has the best chance to land those kill moves, sonic will live realtively long.


on the other hand, mario's recovery isnt as versatile as sonic's but up b is fast and very good for catching the edge, along with cape to mix up the flight path to the edge. sonic can knock him far and still chase him off stage, which is what he'll have to do to insure mario wont make it back. easier said than done, of cuarse, but at the end of the day, Sonic has a better chance at gimping mario than vice versa.

out side of fireballs sonic has a bit more range to his attacks, just not as fast, which means he has to space properly of he'll lose against mario's moves. fireballs are meant as a distration, if sonic wanted to ( and this is stage dependant to a degree) he can negate them by simply using his mobility and reestablishing spacing. plus fireballs are not that strong and will clash with yours easily. honestly, i usually will reposiiton myself than give mario a free attack/setup. in anycase, spring halts potential combos well at low percents.

sonic's lack of kill setups is just as bad as marios, but his smashes usually are kept fresher since they can't be spammed compared to mario (dsmash, upsmash, and bair ) and its usually due to the general style the characters share. Sonic will be hunting for more grabs that mario, and spotdodge tilt/smash is very viable. i think a very offensive mario is in more trouble, since sonic will probably abuse shield and grab/ setup all day.

I can't see who has the advantage because both have the ability to deal damage well on each other, both have a problem killign each other, so they both will live long, and since nearly all setups must be mindgame, it really comes down to the better player, the matchup is too even in this regard.

spacing is the key for sonic. pressure is the key for mario.

 

[B!squick]

Boozer is hungry for steak. I enjoy mine with...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211975&page=78

 

[Jim Morrison]

We already knew.
You really don't have to post a picture or a post relating to steak, haunter, A1 or other Sonic memes. Just asking for help nicely can work. It works better IMO.

I'll pop in

 

[Browny]

So I finally got around to this... Just a suggestion on what to make the matchup chart look like since imo, the current one is one of the most difficult ones to read and understand.

As I posted before, this is just my opinion on how some of these matchups look
Where red means CP or youre pretty much gonna lose a set. an outright counter
orange means if you are better than your opponent by a reasonable amount you should win. a disadvantage
yellow, even
green advantage
sonic has no counters of his own

OBVIOUSLY THIS IS NOT A FINAL VERSION

Now in each square would go the matchup ratio. Each colour can go +/-5 in each direction. So for example, even (yellow) could denote up to 45:55 or 55:45 pending any disagreements between character boards. the mid-point for each colour level should be 40, 50, 60 and 70 respectively (not going to say sonic has any matchups worse than 75:25 here). this also allows matchups to have the same ratio, while under a different colour. my prime example being, I think If lucario and peach were both deemed 35:65 (those numbers have been thrown around before), lucario is just a bit more difficult, but not enough to warrant something like a 30:70.

anyway... let me know whats yous think :/

 

[Kuraudo]

Hmmm... I like! I approve. So long as it becomes cleaner when you're finished~

[EDIT]

Also, I'm not that new. I've been here since around late 2007/early 2008. I just made meself a new account. I'm Spin-Dash.

Glad to know the details though. XD How'd I know that Sonic vs. Mario would cause such a heated debate. Friends one second, bitter rivals the next...to the very end. Hmph.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I like the colours, and the layout too. I think a little legend could do to go across the top, saying which colours signify what.

Some of the numbers seem a bit off though. IC's disadvantage? Samus advantage?

 

[Kinzer]

I should post my 2cents on the entire cast and the difficulty of the MU as well as the reason why.

...I'm 1/3 of the way done, I'll probably do the rest when I'm not being lazy.

 

[Chis]

First of all, it's way too big. It's like twice the size of my screen. Sonic has 30:70 match ups?

this also allows matchups to have the same ratio, while under a different colour. my prime example being, I think If lucario and peach were both deemed 35:65 (those numbers have been thrown around before), lucario is just a bit more difficult, but not enough to warrant something like a 30:70.

This just doesn't make sence to me. The current one seems simple enough to me. I don't see anyone though can find the current one diffiecult to understand lol. You match the colours with the keys. If it's red, switch characters. Blueish/advantage. Yellow or orange/disadvantage.

 

[~TBS~]

wut Chis?
I think this match up guide is ok. I really like it, it looks just right.
And i thought green meant that the match up is even?

 

[Browny]

the current one is absolute, its like 'this is the ratio... nothing else'

I for one disagree with many of the ratios given. With that method, surely everyone could at least agree on the advantage/even/disadvantage/counter aspect of a matchup with only 4 options as oppose to 6.

As another example, on the current list I think it is absurd that Samus and IC's are rated the same. Same with Sheik and Lucario. However if those characters all retained their current numbers (50:50 and 40:60 respectively) yet the matchup description was changed to even and disadnatage for Samus and IC, and disadvantage and counter for sheik and Lucario, at least that I could agree with.

Im sure many other people here disagree with the numbers based on personal experience but surely we could all agree on one of those 4 options

 

[infomon]

Alongisde the matchup numbers, we could put a "level of confidence indicator" or something, just to be like "yeah, we really haven't had many high-level jiggs' facing high-level sonics enough times to really know how this matchup plays out"
that sorta thing

suddenly we'd be way more legit than every other board lol

 

[Chis]

the current one is absolute, its like 'this is the ratio... nothing else'

I for one disagree with many of the ratios given. With that method, surely everyone could at least agree on the advantage/even/disadvantage/counter aspect of a matchup with only 4 options as oppose to 6.

As another example, on the current list I think it is absurd that Samus and IC's are rated the same. Same with Sheik and Lucario. However if those characters all retained their current numbers (50:50 and 40:60 respectively) yet the matchup description was changed to even and disadnatage for Samus and IC, and disadvantage and counter for sheik and Lucario, at least that I could agree with.

Im sure many other people here disagree with the numbers based on personal experience but surely we could all agree on one of those 4 options

Those ratios can be translated into words, which I don't see as being 'absolute'. 45:55 to 55:45 is even. 40:60 to 35:65 is fairly disadvantage. And so on. Like everyone can agree that Peach is somewhere between 40:60 and 35:65.

 

[Kinzer]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6501754#post6501754

I finally finished the Wolf MU write-up, I know it's simple, but what do you want for a simple matchup when you pick it up, right?

 

[AvoiD]

Falco boards are re-discussing the Sonic matchup.

Input would help.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238471

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

70:30 us. No questions.

 

[Camalange]

lol Terry.


Falco is probably 60:40 them, but it's not all that difficult imo. He's like Marth. Gay at first, but not all that hard to get around once you understand em a bit more.

I could also just be bias by how amazing Sonic players are at this game in general though.

 

[JayBee]

i made my opinions known. hopefully ill get some answers back soon.

 

[Kuraudo]

Falco isn't that hard at all. I hate fighting Marths though. Lol

All you gotta do for some easy damage on a Falco, is back throw them, run to the center of the stage, and wait for them to side b into an FSmash. LOL You're too fast for the laser camping game if you just run too.

To me it feels 55:45 for Falco. Then again I just play Falco often enough.

 

[Kinzer]

That's much easier said than done.

However I wouldn't remember, SK92 keeps using Meta Knight on me.