Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Kinzer]

The sad thing is, I agree with him.

Except maybe on Bowser being an advantage and Falco being even, though maybe you could argue for 5 points for Bowser but that doesn't really matter.

Wolf is an iffy manner though, it's hard to tell when there are no Wolf players I can even name.

 

[A1lion835]

The kirby boards have started a new matchup thread and are discussing sonic first! Please click here to help with the discussion. Also, hi Kinzer!

 

[Kinzer]

Oey, is it alright that we rediscuss Wolf?

I honestly feel that it can't be a 6-4, and I'm not saying this because of his new tier placing.

I still have the reserved Space for Wolf's WU, and I would be more than glad to get it done assuming people want to look over him again.

Or am I the only one here who thinks that it's more than I presumed?

 

[ROOOOY!]

I agree Kinzer, I've argued it since the start. I also feel we have to re-look at :

Mario (possibly 40-60?)
Fox (neutral IMO)
Ness MAYBE a disadvantage, but I don't know the match-up too well.
Yoshi as 40:60 is a joke. A bad one at that.
Falcon as an advantage.
Sheik is more neutral than disadvantage.
I definately think Olimar needs looking into. It's worse than it states there.
Ike (though no one believes me when I argue in Sonic's favour *sad face*)
Wolf isn't a disadvantage, like Kinzer says. Lrn2dodge lasers and smashes plz.
Bowser. Definately Bowser.

--------------------
The most important ones to re-assess IMO are Fox, Yoshi, Olimar, Wolf, Bowser


Not that we're wrong in saying that it's a disadvantage, the MK number is iffy. 35:65? Oh please. There are other characters who get zoned, gimped, juggled and butt****ed by MK and have their match-ups as 40:60 and other ******** ****. MK doesn't have too much going for him here if I'm being honest.

 

[Chis]

We changed the Olimar and MK one to 40:60 btw. Yes I need to update Olimar.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser will be even as long as he has his UpB. lol

 

[ROOOOY!]

That was pretty quick (:

My argument is more for the general qualities of the characters, I'll expand a little more later to make it less vague but I've gotta get ready to go out.

It's pretty much whilst Bowser has pretty fast options, they have in general pretty bad ending lag. This plays right into Sonic's baiting and punishing game. Factor in Bowsers....fatness and he's just a big punching bag for Sonic if he starts making mistakes, and he gets punished pretty hard for them too.

I'll use proper examples later.

 

[Allied]

we are discussing you guyz in the kirby boards
come help us decide<3

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236395

 

[ROOOOY!]

Maybe we need to go back through Kirby?
I'm not sure it was a disadvantage, as all this was discussed last year when we were all young + cute + naive.

Also, I'm finishing college at the end of this week, so will finally contribute to something. I'll do the Ice Climbers and Ganon match-up write ups, yesyes?


From this post on, this is Yoshi discussion.

What actually gives Yoshi the advantage on us? I know they have a grab-release thing but it's not really enough to swing the match-up in their favour on that alone, is it?

 

[Camalange]

<3 ROOOOY

So um, the Kirby board pretty much agreed either on 50-50 or 55-45 Sonic...so we should update the OP with one of those ratios since it's no way 60:40 Kirby. I could probably do an updated write up for Kirby?

They were leaning toward 50-50 simply because most of them never played a GOOD Sonic who knew what they were doing :/ I personally still believe 55-45.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Hai thar Cammy <3

I don't think the thing about stage control was iterated enough in the write-up. I'd never really given it much thought before, but the whole match is pretty much Kirby hauling *** across stage trying to keep up.

I'm beating you to 3000 posts, too.

Yes, this post was just an excuse to show off my new sig lol.


Edit : WHY IS MY SIG NOT SHOWING? D;

 

[Camalange]

Exactly, which is why I believe Sonic has the advantage :/

lol@nosig...and we'll see about the 3000 posts sir <3

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

O.o Sonic actually has the advantage against Kirby?

Ooo someone educate me :D

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I played BlaKat like...2 months ago. IIRC we traded off pretty consistently. He kept getting me with that stupid suck spit under the stage bair thing too. I blame techingz on wifi for that lol.

 

[Camalange]

O.o Sonic actually has the advantage against Kirby?

Ooo someone educate me :D

Check out the Kirby Matchup thread. We're the first matchup discussed, lol. First 10 pages is all about us.

 

[Kinzer]

Edit : WHY IS MY SIG NOT SHOWING? D;

Your sig is not going to show if the post itself isn't bigger than the sig. This includes length AND Wifth.

I strongly emphasize width because I too sometimes forget that you also can't have a post

that

looks

like

this

and get away with it.

I still think Wolf is neutral, and I think I'll go on ahead and do the write-up tomorrow when I'm not so d*** tired after my tourney.

 

[aeghrur]

How does sonic beat Kirby in the air?
I know our aerials come out quicker, but god, Kirby's bair has such huge range. Like, iirc, it's range is almost rival to that of Marth's fair.
His dair seems good too, but using it in the air is terribad against our uair.
But point is, does aerial speed alone justify the ideal that our aerials beats kirby's aerials?

 

[JayBee]

bair is the only move in the air kirby has over us, and if they use it too much, the y lose that kill move. plus bair walls dont do well to gimp sonic. we know about their recovery, an dour tilts are overall better too. uptilt is kirby's best one , but OOs usually.

in the end kirby has to play a lot resevered in order to beat sonic. they have to wait and guess your actions while fishing for lots of grabs since thier combos get stopped by spring early. kirby has to play very defensive to get a chance to rack damage on sonic, and he can't force a bad approach since he has no projectile, so spins and th cancels really help cover intentions and force his hand rather than the other way around.


Teere is not real set up for kirby's kill moves either. Kirby has to use multiple mindgames in order to kill sonic, IMO, seeing as Sonic has the higher potential for mindgames and can adjust spacing better, as well as being able to survive longer, sonic can out last kirby longer.

but since Sonic has even less kill moves thatn kirby and has a hard time gimping kirby as well, he can have trouble if he gets too careless. even then, since both have to rely on thier mindagmes to land thier kill moves usually, sonic's higher potential to do so gives him teh edge.

this is in sonic's favor. 55:45

 

[Tenki]

Kirby's D-tilt trips like a mofo. Sonic's... doesn't?

who cares if B-air doesn't gimp, he has kill moves, and better pseudo-setups into them than Sonic ever has lol.

So Sonic has higher mindgame potential ?

Does this apply to baiting into an F-smash, D-smash, or B-air? I mean sure, Sonic has a ton of feints and stuff, but how applicable are they when it comes to Kirby?

I'm not seeing it 9_9; Maybe I haven't worked that aspect of my game and only see a limited [force/hope opponent airdodges/spotdodges/ rolls/commits to a laggy move] "set up" for kill moves, but I think Kirby really has it more in the killing department.

Kirby can at least D-tilt trip into (tech chase optional) F-smash, and that D-air > footstool BS at the right %s keeps you locked from upBing and actually forces you to fall to your death. Instead of having to just watch out for the straight kill move, as you do with Sonic, you have to watch out for the moves that lead into them as well.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Wow you people should get Kirby F-smashed.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I would but I'm too fast for the naked eye.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Seriously, this is a matchup, it can no way be in Sonics favor. His attributes are ****, he just has good mindgames... Which aren't factored in the discussion -.-"

I could agree on even but I'd rather see 55:45 Kirby than Sonic.

 

[JayBee]

kirby is forced to use grabs a whole bunch in this match up as well as bair , since we are too fast for hium to use the other ones, limiting his air game some. however bair is very good, but now he can't kill with it usually, so now thier main option is an Fsmash, which lacks multiple options. but it looks like everyone basically is on the same page. its an even matchup,


sonic does not have just mindgames. his tilts are just as good and ftilt is longer than ay of kirby's meaning we can space with it. kirby's uptilt is very good, but it is used in combos (which sonic springs from to avoid a big combo) and as an OoS option, which is where it shines with jab and grabs. But sonic has the tools to limit these scenarios to where Kirby has to mindgame an opening everytime.


In fact id go and say that the matchup is even because there is no garenteed anything for these characters they have to mindgame all of thier setups. kirby doesn't have combos outside of low percents, but sonic's spin dash is always a combo when the first hit connects.

id give sonic the slight edge because he has an advantage in damage opportunities, every thing else is too even IMO.

 

[Chis]

Er, by the way, haven't we rediscussed Yoshi before?

 

[Camalange]

I think Kojin gets it.

On top of that, how is Kirby going to stop us from running around all day? Kirby can "wall of bair" but Sonic's outranges that, and he's faster >_> I know this sounds lame like "sonic has teh speed" but it's just honesty. Kirby has a hard time keeping up because it's so easy for Sonic to mess up Kirby's spacing and outrange him...Sonic has stage control. IMO any time Sonic can control a stage for the majority of the time, it's in his favor.

But like I said before, only slightly. Simply since Kirby has much more reliable kill options...but it's going to be hard to actually get Sonic to die since Bair will be way to stale to ever kill.

Not only that, we have a HIGH PLACING Kirby player who has played Malcolm, Kai, and myself multiple times and is convinced that it's Sonics favor. Allied may not be Chudat, but he has a name for himself on the EC. And of course, it's not like Allied LOSES every time, that's not the case. The matchup can go either way, but he knows that Sonic still has a slight advantage, which Kirby can overcome...it's not like we're saying "Sonic has speed, 60:40 Sonic's favor".

lol, it's funny saying that...since we used to get "Although Sonic can 0-100 steak combo Toon Link, he cant kill. 60:40 T Link" or something like that XD

 

[Browny]

I dont think ill ever agree with this being Sonic's advantage

 

[aeghrur]

How does sonic outrange bair... >_<
Are you telling me we can outrange marth's fair?
Cuz that's basically Kirby's bair. >_<
And Kirby doesn't necessarily need a set-up for F-smash, it has HUGE range, like longer than every one of marth's attacks except shield breaker.

 

[Browny]

who cares about marths range

it sucks now. beating DK/snake/olimar/DDD is what its all about

kirbys bair doesnt have massive range, its just that his feet are not a hurtbox that you can actually interact with. pretty much the same as snakes utilt, but just imagine you could actually see his leg, the disjoint remins the same

 

[aeghrur]

dj, for sonic, marths range is still good enough to beat out most aerials.

 

[MalcolmM]

ive never played allied with sonic >.<

 

[Kinzer]

It probably doesn't help that Marth isn't slow in the air like Kirby either.

 

[Camalange]

Marth's Fair covers a lot more of the air than Kirby's bair does...and it's still slightly longer range I believe. Kirby's hitbox just stays out longer so he can kinda float around with it, which is what's annoying. Also, add on what Kinzer said.

@Malcolm - LOL, are you SURE? He told me he had, but it was awhile ago. Either way he's played both me and Kai recently.

 

[Xyro77]

Guys this is the SAMUS boards LAST day to talk about sonic vs samus. If you havnt thrown in your 2 cents, please do! We want your opinions!!!!!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222783

 

[Browny]

after playing some moar kirby users at yesterdays tourney;

I still dont think ill ever agree with this being Sonic's advantage (quite the opposite)

 

[Chis]

I'm updating the chart today. And I'm putting it as 50:50.

Okay?

 

[aeghrur]

Go ahead Chis.
There are disagreements all over, so just 50:50 works, lol.

 

[Chis]

Let's rediscuss Mario?

 

[Tenki]

this doesn't have anything to do with anything current, but

lol @ Terios's "if Olimar CP's Luigi's Mansion, get the % lead and camp the top with spring".

it's legit.

XD

it's like the return of pork city LOL

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Told ya. It's WAAYY too good. And you can't tell me they don't deserve it. I actually got the idea from what people said about BOKU. If we decided to just run timers all day we'd be top tier.

 

[Camalange]

Kirby becomes a lot harder when they spam nothing but Bair, Fsmash, and grabs. I don't believe it's Sonic's favor anymore, lmao. It's still not bad, even sounds right.