Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Exceladon City]

Well as far as my experience goes with fighting Marth, I'd say it's about 40:60, 35:65 Marth. The Marth's that I've gone against hate fighting Sonic but still do decently. One of the more annoying things with Marth is that if the Marth player gets the lead they can camp Fairs all day and Sonic has to find away around that which inevitably means approach.

 

[Tenki]

which inevitably means approach.

so?

Sonic pretty much has to approach anyway lol.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Just mess with his spacing a ton. DDP left and right. I wish I actually knew how to do it proficiently(I'll get around to practicing it lol) Watch any Falcon Melee vid. You can get in there pretty easily if your dash game is good enough.

 

[DDM]

so?

Sonic pretty much has to approach anyway lol.

Yeh, Sonic's not really much of a camper. Although steak cooked over a fire pit is a pleasant thought.

 

[Umby]

so?

Sonic pretty much has to approach anyway lol.

The problem being that Sonic technically has no viable means to approach.

 

[Kuraudo]

The ONLY way to approach a Marth is to literally take him on full force. Be fast, psyche them out to avoid when they pull out a Fair, Nair, DTilt, whatever. You gotta make Marth too slow if you wanna have any form of a coherent chance in that match-up.

The good thing about Sonic is that he's a kind of character that forces you to reduce your camping game and actually fight close quarters. The downside? Marth ***** in close quarters.

65:35 for Marth, in my opinion. If you wanna win? You'd BETTER be a really good Sonic.

 

[Camalange]

The problem being that Sonic technically has no viable means to approach.

Sonic never has viable means to approach because he's bad.

His best approach is running shield. Or RAR Bair. MAYBE SH Fair. Other than that, Sonic doesn't really have REAL approaches.



I completely disagree with 65:35 Marth. Sonic's OoS aerials work really well in this matchup, along with being able to edgeguard/gimp Marth without that much difficulty.

Marth excels edguarding, he can rack up good damage this way, but he most likely won't be KILLING this way, because of Sonic's great recovery options + momentum canceling.

To top it all off, Marth's smashes kill early when they're tippered. If not tippered...Sonic won't be dying until above 100%. Sonic can easily mess up Marth's spacing simply by running because well, Marth can't camp you. He can try and "camp with Fairs" but Sonic can get in there so easily with Spindash and OoS Fair (after shielding the first one)

I think Sonic has enough advantages here that Marth is no way a soft counter.

 

[Kuraudo]

It looks good on paper, and mayhaps for you it's easier then it is for me. It's like how I don't feel too pressured against Peach players despite it being one of Sonic's bad match-ups apparently.

It varies amongst players for character match-ups and experiences. I do all of those, but...fair just wrecks me. I'm better off just trying to bait the Marth with cancelling Spin Dashes, and just waiting for when I can get in with MY attack when he can't Fair, Nair, or the like.

 

[Tenki]

The problem being that Sonic technically has no viable means to approach.

Yeah.

So basically, you move yourself close and the game becomes whoever can counterattack better. Like if Marth hits your shield with a retreating tipper F-air, you're probably not going to be countering that. If you corner Marth on the edge and he lands the middle part of F-air on you, then you can F-air that OoS.

Otherwise, you'd have to like, Ally-block his air-ground / grounded movestrings (not including dancing blade)

 

[JayBee]

guys. the problem is dancing blade. It stops all of sonic's approaches and is fast enough that he can just do one slash as a gut check. its the most gay part and if a marth spams it at different parts, you aren't getting in safely.


then again, sonic's oos options have use here, once you are in tho, you can't ever give the spacing back. sonic can gimp marth too, but you have to be the most aggressive off stage since marth has little variety in recovery. however, Dolphin Slash Oos will be your oos every time, but a missed one begs for a kill.


its very gay. the key is when the game starts. and i feel that sonic's running game is the key, to force pressure to approach, and make marth move.

NEVER spring dair. recover high. thats all i got.

 

[Browny]

So are we sticking with that matchup chart?
no offense Chis, but its just about the worst there is on SWF. considering how much better these matchup discussions are than any other board (marth mains can keep telling themselves theirs is the best, it makes for a good laugh), such a hastily put together image really doesnt do this thread justice. Who here is a pro at photoshop or something lol?

 

[Chis]

It's not even mine, GS borrowed it from another board. I'd rather have people concentrate on completing the guides lol

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Fancy charts are nice and all but I think info MAY take precedent. Just my opinion. =P

 

[MarKO X]

Ftilt is your friend in this matchup.

 

[Kuraudo]

Yeah, but then they just FSmash or DTilt. x-x; Stupid Marth.

DJ, I got a tourney tomorrow, but after the tourney, I can whip up something for the Sonic boards. I'm pretty handy & fancy with paint shop pro.

If someone else beats me to it? Oh well. Until then? Leave it to me! We just need a chart that's informational AND eye-catching. Nothing over the top, but overly clean too.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I suggest you make a chart that is not based on numbers. they are bad for sonic.

i suggest you do something that jsut has, advantage, even disadvantage or along thse lines

 

[Kuraudo]

I agree, actually. Numbers aren't bad for just Sonic. They're bad for everyone. Match-ups are constantly changing in numbers as we discover more of our meta game and the more we fight that match-up. For better or for worse, we're not ready for numbers yet, I feel. We need a couple or so more years before we can more solidly decide. It's just like the Tier List.

We need more time to dictate who belongs where, and we're just fleshing out the possibilities. My chart'll be nice. Simple and clean.

inb4utadahikaru lol

 

[Chis]

A chart made of numbers or words still represent the same thing. Whether something is a disadvantage or advantage, changing how you display it won’t change anything. How are numbers 'bad' for Sonic?

I'd rather be discussing write ups which are more import then a match up chart.

 

[Browny]

weve been discussion matchups for almost an entire year

and have a chart that was made in 3 minutes to go with it. there really is a time when such things should be looked at, you cant just ignore it forever

 

[Chis]

Like the fact that we have around 15 guides still yet to be done?

 

[Kuraudo]

Anyone who thinks Marth vs. Sonic is 60:40 hasn't played an aggressive Marth. If you're going to win with Sonic, you have to find a way to intimidate them and make them play defensively, and even then you can't let up for a second.

65:35 for Marth. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. You're not winning that match-up against a good aggressive Marth. Even if you play offensive or defensive yourself.

 

[da K.I.D.]

numbers are bad because we cant even determine what the numbers in a matchup. if I see a matchup that is 60-40, to me that says that if i play the matchup 100 times, than the better character should win that 60 times out of the 100. Where as some people say that it means that you have a 60% chance of winnign, which, while similar isnt the same thing. and then you have people like malcolm that say if you are at a 70-30 disadvantage, you really should never win the matchup.

i think its better to have a system similar to what the snake boards have where we just have a 1-5 star rating level of difficulty per matchup

 

[Kuraudo]

... I kinda like Kid's idea the best, actually.

But instead of stars, we use 5 Rings. With each ring being highlighted for the difficulty. I like that. Unique 3rd Party match-up styles!

 

[Chis]

We need guides. Look at the title.

 

[Browny]

... I kinda like Kid's idea the best, actually.

But instead of stars, we use 5 Rings. With each ring being highlighted for the difficulty. I like that. Unique 3rd Party match-up styles!

I vote for chilli dogs

 

[Kuraudo]

But rings are shinier. :[

 

[Chis]

And now Lucario. I want to see why peolpe think it's 30:70.

 

[Kuraudo]

I haven't played enough good Lucarios to really have a say in this matter. It's probably true, if not close to.

*watches this match-up discussion like a hawk*

 

[Browny]

Because no sonic I ever play gets more than 1 stock off my lucario. hes too safe. hypnosmashes are almost completely out of the question and sonic likes to punish landing lag. lucario has none with his dair. I never play the matchup as sonic vs another lucario though so my opinion on it is very one sided :/

 

[Kuraudo]

Ouch... That does sound kinda rough. I need to find a good Lucario main in Alberta, or hope for one in Hawaii or something, and take them on and see this for myself.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Iono..... No Lucario's I play really have given me trouble except the rolly spammy ones that I can't punish in extreme lag. If the lag clears I kick their butt. D= There was one I went even with. In fact our third match went to 5 seconds and I got Fsmashed at like.... 140, lived and just stalled in the air cause he had 4 more percent than me. Then again I tried picking up Lucario cause I like the community so much ( I can't do it. T_T) and even though I SUUUCK at Lucario I went about even with SL84 coming down to LSHP and dying cause I made a bad edge decision.


Edit: Also I should mention that if my brother mains anyone it's Lucario/Pika/Sonic. even if he avoids Pika and Sonic cause I play them. D=

 

[Kuraudo]

Come to think of it, Alphicans (one of the best players in Alberta) used to play a Lucario who wasn't so bad before the metagame picked up for them. But back then I could beat him with Sonic. So...the metagame has probably SERIOUSLY evolved around Lucario in that time if everyone says the match-up is that bad.

But then again I also beat Dieslow (good player in British Columbia) and his Lucario pretty easy enough in January... Either bad Lucarios or it doesn't seem bad for me. But...

I'll hold my breath on that statement until I play an actual Lucario main who freaking owns. Oshi-- I got it! I can just play Azen! LOL This one actually really interests me. I wanna find out in a match how bad it is to fight a good Lucario. Until then... Well, lurking is ago. Hahah.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Anyone who thinks Marth vs. Sonic is 60:40 hasn't played an aggressive Marth. If you're going to win with Sonic, you have to find a way to intimidate them and make them play defensively, and even then you can't let up for a second.

65:35 for Marth. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. You're not winning that match-up against a good aggressive Marth. Even if you play offensive or defensive yourself.

I disagree. Aggressive Marths are easy, because aggressive Marths are bad and predictable and punishable. Defensive ones are too hard, ones that just Dancing Blade on reaction can eat ****.

As for the topic at hand, I don't get why Lucarios are really hard either. If you keep him grounded it's easy.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Because no sonic I ever play gets more than 1 stock off my lucario. hes too safe. hypnosmashes are almost completely out of the question and sonic likes to punish landing lag. lucario has none with his dair. I never play the matchup as sonic vs another lucario though so my opinion on it is very one sided :/

I play both characters as well, and I play the matchup alot from both sides of the equation. and i say its a slight advantage to lucario. lucario does have lag that sonic can punish. i think that the characters are very even and that the only thing that gives luc the edge is that its harder for sonic to kill, which is even more of a problem against lucario than normal characters.

I disagree. Aggressive Marths are easy, because aggressive Marths are bad and predictable and punishable. Defensive ones are too hard, ones that just Dancing Blade on reaction can eat ****.

As for the topic at hand, I don't get why Lucarios are really hard either. If you keep him grounded it's easy.

how do you keep the other character on the ground?

and you forget that when the get you high enough in %s he can just dolphin slash on reaction for the kill

 

[DLoRd333]

One problem with lucario is just that sonic can't kill very easily, so lucario will have a high percentage giving him stronger attacks to kill sonic off, and then continue to rack up damage quickly after sonic respawns. So he will always have an advantage when he has high percentage, I know it may seem a bit obvious, but try to KO lucario before he KOes you that way when he respawns his attacks will be a lot less powerful and won't kill quite as fast.....but setting up for a kill and executing it isn't exactly easy. Go for something that he won't see coming, or can't punish as easily. I'm not totally sure, but maybe an offstage kill would be safer than on stage? Perhaps a b-air stage spike as he up Bs into the ledge.

Also if you can, when he fully charges up his Aura Sphere, bait him into releasing it with spin fakeouts if possible. The aura sphere can be pretty deadly when it hits, so its good to have it not be ready to go when he sees you in a good position to use it. Only problem is that he can just as quickly recharge it.

Another thing that is a concern is just his low lag aerials, since they are difficult to punish, I am not 100% sure but maybe punishing his ground attack's lag would be a better option.

And I don't know this, but does Sonic's Uair go through Lucario's Dair? Much appreciated if someone can answer that. Same thing with Sonic's fair going through Lucario's Fair as well.

 

[Kuraudo]

I disagree. Aggressive Marths are easy, because aggressive Marths are bad and predictable and punishable. Defensive ones are too hard, ones that just Dancing Blade on reaction can eat ****.

As for the topic at hand, I don't get why Lucarios are really hard either. If you keep him grounded it's easy.

You need to play against a Marth that's aggressive with perfect spacing. Defensive ones are easier for me to beat because when you're defending? Defensive Marths are giving Sonics air to breath, and when you can breath, you survive for longer to win the match-up. The defensive ones aren't so hard and Dancing Blade isn't so tough. Sonic can survive a few slashes from the Dancing Blade as he shields. And Marths like to do a couple of slashes without completing it, and keep the Dancing Blade going to eat away at the shield. The second that there's an opening run away from either a Dolphin Slash, more Dancing Blade, or a Shield Breaker resulting in the loss of your stock.

Believe me. Marth has so many options against Sonic. It's ****ing HARD.

If I'm jumping the gun with assumptions here, then I'm sorry, but maybe you find aggressive Marths easy and predictable because you don't play too many Marths? Or at least, you don't play too many good Marths that know the Sonic match-up?

I play vs. Marth a LOT and know the match-up. But for the love of god, it still doesn't help. x_x;

 

[Camalange]

lol Marth


Oh, I played Zuccos Lucario a LOT yesterday. He's a beast, he's been wrecking tournies recently. It was odd though, cuz I never played a Lucario that was at his level, so like it started with a couple 2 stockings, quickly changed to last stocks, then eventually I could pull in some wins.

Iunno maybe I was learning pretty quickly, but I have to say it's 60:40. If it was truley anything past that I would've had to put a lot more time and research into MU.

For those of you who don't know Zucco, he's amazing. He's also too good with Ness <3

 

[JayBee]

One problem with lucario is just that sonic can't kill very easily, so lucario will have a high percentage giving him stronger attacks to kill sonic off, and then continue to rack up damage quickly after sonic respawns. So he will always have an advantage when he has high percentage, I know it may seem a bit obvious, but try to KO lucario before he KOes you that way when he respawns his attacks will be a lot less powerful and won't kill quite as fast.....but setting up for a kill and executing it isn't exactly easy. Go for something that he won't see coming, or can't punish as easily. I'm not totally sure, but maybe an offstage kill would be safer than on stage? Perhaps a b-air stage spike as he up Bs into the ledge.

Also if you can, when he fully charges up his Aura Sphere, bait him into releasing it with spin fakeouts if possible. The aura sphere can be pretty deadly when it hits, so its good to have it not be ready to go when he sees you in a good position to use it. Only problem is that he can just as quickly recharge it.

Another thing that is a concern is just his low lag aerials, since they are difficult to punish, I am not 100% sure but maybe punishing his ground attack's lag would be a better option.

And I don't know this, but does Sonic's Uair go through Lucario's Dair? Much appreciated if someone can answer that. Same thing with Sonic's fair going through Lucario's Fair as well.

it is possible, the problem is most sonic's i've seen are not good enough with spacing to properly space the second hit of uair yet, which maybe can beat lucario's dair, but since Luc's dair is faster and stops him midair, it even harder.

Sonic has to play a bit unconventional. lucario wins because he just outlasts. Sonic needs to rely on his gimp game to maek up for it, which is possible. you have to play the percentage game, and force lucario to approach if you gain a stock over him. his projectile is only scary near high percents or when its fully charged, but sonic still can avoid setups wiht his mobility.

it appears better to fight lucario on the ground, where there is more lag to exploit. i believe that best way to fight lucario is to be defensive until you can make him damage from a misteak, then pressure him off stage so you can go for gimp attemps, then if you kill him or have the percent lead, make him chase you so he can't camp you, which is how he maintains his stock advantage. I'd be most offensive at early percents then slow down and force him to do something to me as his aura becomes more annoying. but you need at least one gimp.

that's my thougths anyways.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Lucario is another one of those "character walls" I can't seem to beat.

His spamming small aura spheres get pretty annoying. When I get to approach (if I'm running head on) all it takes is a basic A combo. And if I approach from the air. he jumps and fairs the snot out of me forcing me to retreat and replan my strategy. I've tried the B-side's IASA advantage when I'm near, but he can see it coming, roll-dodge and counter it somehow.

Since Sonic can't kill very quickly, Lucario turns into a dangerous foe, the moment I racked over 150%, making things tougher than they already were..

Ftilt is good.. but Lucario's Fsmash and Ftilt are a lot better.

Against a good Lucario, I'd be lucky if I take one or two stocks off.

 

[dark_Illusion_hokage]

Lucario is another one of those "character walls" I can't seem to beat.

His spamming small aura spheres get pretty annoying. When I get to approach (if I'm running head on) all it takes is a basic A combo. And if I approach from the air. he jumps and fairs the snot out of me forcing me to retreat and replan my strategy. I've tried the B-side's IASA advantage when I'm near, but he can see it coming, roll-dodge and counter it somehow.

Since Sonic can't kill very quickly, Lucario turns into a dangerous foe, the moment I racked over 150%, making things tougher than they already were..

Ftilt is good.. but Lucario's Fsmash and Ftilt are a lot better.

Against a good Lucario, I'd be lucky if I take one or two stocks off.

It was that way for me until i finally learned to do some sexy shield runs, grabbing is the easiest way for me to take down a lucario, i don't really have a problem with him in the air despite how annoying it is to get by his aireals, but sonic's tilts are pretty useless which sucks for me.

then again you can always auto ledge grab for a gimp / punish, ledge invincibility frames > aura sphere.

I say its a good 60:40 for this matchup