This is going to be another long one, if you have a shrot attention span just read that ones that are directed at you specifically or one-liners for some good clean fun.
The problem being that Sonic technically has no viable means to approach.
This is true.
Sonic never has viable means to approach because he's bad.
I completely disagree with 65:35 Marth. Sonic's OoS aerials work really well in this matchup, along with being able to edgeguard/gimp Marth without that much difficulty.
Marth excels edguarding, he can rack up good damage this way, but he most likely won't be KILLING this way, because of Sonic's great recovery options + momentum canceling.
To top it all off, Marth's smashes kill early when they're tippered. If not tippered...Sonic won't be dying until above 100%. Sonic can easily mess up Marth's spacing simply by running because well, Marth can't camp you. He can try and "camp with Fairs" but Sonic can get in there so easily with Spindash and OoS Fair (after shielding the first one)
I think Sonic has enough advantages here that Marth is no way a soft counter.
I'm at 62.5:37.5 for Marth, but yeah while most people are entitled to their own opinion, I don't find Marth to be as hard as say G&W.
It's not even mine, GS borrowed it from another board. I'd rather have people concentrate on completing the guides lol
Who has been semi-updating them then?
If they're still around, please get them to change the MU for Sonic:Wolf
PLEASE.
Hell I even made the Wold guide quite a while ago, you need to update that it is so, unless you are not satisfied with it, then let me know, but otherwise you update this when you see this because you are a mod/the new OP of this thread.
Like the fact that we have around 15 guides still yet to be done?
All the more reason you need to at least update this with Wolf so it doesn't look as bad.
Now that you're a mod BTW, I should volunteer for some others.
Mhm.
One problem with lucario is just that sonic can't kill very easily, so lucario will have a high percentage giving him stronger attacks to kill sonic off, and then continue to rack up damage quickly after sonic respawns. So he will always have an advantage when he has high percentage, I know it may seem a bit obvious, but try to KO lucario before he KOes you that way when he respawns his attacks will be a lot less powerful and won't kill quite as fast.....but setting up for a kill and executing it isn't exactly easy. Go for something that he won't see coming, or can't punish as easily. I'm not totally sure, but maybe an offstage kill would be safer than on stage? Perhaps a b-air stage spike as he up Bs into the ledge.
Also if you can, when he fully charges up his Aura Sphere, bait him into releasing it with spin fakeouts if possible. The aura sphere can be pretty deadly when it hits, so its good to have it not be ready to go when he sees you in a good position to use it. Only problem is that he can just as quickly recharge it.
Another thing that is a concern is just his low lag aerials, since they are difficult to punish, I am not 100% sure but maybe punishing his ground attack's lag would be a better option.
And I don't know this, but does Sonic's Uair go through Lucario's Dair? Much appreciated if someone can answer that. Same thing with Sonic's fair going through Lucario's Fair as well.
Good luck getting them to use Extreme Speed with you on the edge of the stage.
Player dependable, unfortunately.
...I wonder how many times I've already stressed that with the exception of Nair and Uair (which is never used in this following situation) that all of Lucario's aerials are punishable OoS, I've been able to do it with FTilt or Da at worst.
Yes, it just has t be spaced, as Kojin already explained to you (I believe, I didn't read his entire post but I trust he made a good response).
wow, with all the options laid in front of me, picking sonics hardest match is really difficult
If you're picking anybody but G&W you're doing it wrong.
I think another good way to gimp Lucario is to D throw him off the edge, and then FF f-air him offstage. That's just one of your gimp options though.
If the lucario starts abusing SH dairs, then maybe you could try and hit him with a Bair or Fair from the sides, where the Dair's Hit box doesn't reach. Uair could work too, but like Kojin said it would take proper spacing.
Also, what are some good counter pick stages against Lucario? Particularly those that make it easiest to gimp, I would say FD but then again he has more space to camp.
On a side note, I doubt the match up could be anything worse than 65:35 in luc's favor, it seems more rational that it is a within the 65:35-60:40 range.
Most will DI your Fair.
They won't get predictable with it that way, but I've already said how easy it is to punish Lucario's aerials OoS (Out of Shield if you were not aware.)
FD is actually a great stage, Aura Sphere is really nothing to majorly concern yourself with. I don't have a list of Lucario CP stages with me right now but there aren't any that are "CP here and win/lose."
asdklfjadsklj
kk
Polls not over yet...not over yet...
Aww Camal, but biased poll is biased.
I
just doesn't even know some of the people who voted here, and Marth having one more vote than G&W, let alone any, is an abomination to society.
I really do hate it though, as great as it is to let people voice their opinions, I don't like how some of the voters
might be uninformed, there should be some kind of requirement that people have to meet to make an educated tally.
Honestly when I saw one vote for Peach I thought it would be Rick just because of his post/s that lead me to believe that he believes this, but when I saw that it was some guy I haven't even seen once I just went WTF. That right there just tells you how bad this is when the poll can be skewed.
Listen to this man.
Also Umby even though you hate us all/me I still love you.
Why is MK not on the Sonic's worst matchup poll? I know G&W is harder, but MK is one of the harder Sonic matchups.
This, and
Quite frankly, Pika and MK are 6:4
AT WORST, meaning neither can even become contenders for Sonic's worst MU, even if MK is MK lol.
Woah. 9-1 Lucario!?? Did I miss something?
Not yet I guess, we gotta get future if you are to miss out, but as of July 10th, 2009 at approx~ 3:31 A.M. EST you haven't missed anything, let alone become aware that you have.
Its true...
we recently found out that lucario has a dtilt
And according to this, the False SBR must know be future as well.
What doesn't work. No more riddles please.
Who is this directed to?
Also please update this with what I asked you to present, it benefits everybody.
But since hes not in the poll, I'd give G&W the prize of Sonic's hard match up, (I looked at the match up and it ain't finished yet I presume? read through some of the discussions though) I can't approach him at all without letting that turtle of his bite me multiple times. His Dtilt makes me feel stupid by completely stoppin my SpinDash approaches as well..
....Yeah... useless post
I think GreenStreet still owns G&W's chapter, but we have Chis now though, so maybe I should get to fixing that since it can be edited into GS's post now.
and while you're at it, add a couple more choices.
Like Luigi and N-air.
And make it an invisible poll where I can't facepalm at some of these randoms who come in here just because it's a poll.
But the poll is just a test though.
It failed, I'm sorry to say.
I'm done with this thread forever.
Come back! <3
Pool's closed. Also, Chis, you suck for declaring Marth a win when he wins by one vote. People who don't even go to Sonic boards voted too.
What's that stupid saying that goes by one vote making a difference again?
SoniKupo is suddenly one of my favourite members.
I like him too.
How the hell does everyone think Marth is so hard?
I suck so bad this game. And I ALWAYS go even with or beat one of the best marth players on LI.
If you're any good, i don;t understand how marth is a hard match up, at all.
How can you be bad @ Brawl, is that even possible? Especially considering that
you're a God @ you're at least decent (I heard?) at Melee.
<3
For those of you who are unaware, this has been going on for awhile.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240126
65:35 pivot grab
EDIT: crap I'm still posting...ugh
It's destiny.
