da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
you better love him cama, you are going to being meeting Xiivi IRL next week.
Prepare yourself...
Prepare yourself...
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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread
- Thread starter Chis
- Start date
- Joined
- May 12, 2008
- Messages
- 9,420
- Location
- Seattle
- NNID
- Camalange
- 3DS FC
- 1160-9836-5007
- Switch FC
- SW-4197-1438-9208
I hope he doesn't ban me IRL.
--
Why is discussion over >_>
I want some Link discussion up in here.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
rediscussion is good
Kinzer
Mammy
I would really love to go over Lucas/Fox/Luigi/Mario, just so we can confirm/deny/change whatever we have to.
While discussions may be over, some of us still need to volunteer to do some write-ups... some of us (guilty) need to finally finish theirs, and some ratios need to be changed just a tiny bit?
Also It would be really nice if we could get an easier spectrum of MU colorboxes to look at, I swear even if some are next to each other I can't hardly tell the difference, and I am 0% colorblind (no offense Tenki).
While discussions may be over, some of us still need to volunteer to do some write-ups... some of us (guilty) need to finally finish theirs, and some ratios need to be changed just a tiny bit?
Also It would be really nice if we could get an easier spectrum of MU colorboxes to look at, I swear even if some are next to each other I can't hardly tell the difference, and I am 0% colorblind (no offense Tenki).
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Why do we NOT have an MK write-up?
If everyone is their usual lazy selves, I'll do it when I get home but don't expect something good.
If everyone is their usual lazy selves, I'll do it when I get home but don't expect something good.
darkNES386
Smash Lord
lol
if you found out who that was...
:[
Well... it was August, so we I guess I can cut KID some slack
Seriously though, Sonic's fast enough to run off the higher platforms and even air dodge if he has to down to Falco's level. Lesson learned everyone.
Let's discuss Falco again
~TBS~
Smash Champion
Dat aint falco.
Man, spammy lasers, dthrow camps, ****** bair, dair after throw. TOO MANY OPTIONS.
I seriously have issues with this matchup. (Against the good Falco's. It seems that I always have to fight one) It is just too hard. I can use ASC SC to approach (wisely, not spamming it) His ground game is seriously vicious against Sonic, as strictly limits what we can do. And seeing how we need to setup our kills and attacks, this can be serious bizness. Air wise, his bair and dair is just..UGH. uair isnt that bad to get around, though.
What can we do against this guy?
Man, spammy lasers, dthrow camps, ****** bair, dair after throw. TOO MANY OPTIONS.
I seriously have issues with this matchup. (Against the good Falco's. It seems that I always have to fight one) It is just too hard. I can use ASC SC to approach (wisely, not spamming it) His ground game is seriously vicious against Sonic, as strictly limits what we can do. And seeing how we need to setup our kills and attacks, this can be serious bizness.
Air wise, his bair and dair is just..UGH. uair isnt that bad to get around, though. What can we do against this guy?
darkNES386
Smash Lord
We have: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0bROVxgNfk from the video thread
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SySF5ugCQbw#t=7m15s
-He places well in midwest events (WI/IL... don't know if he's gone anywhere else)
-He's another good Falco to watch besides Sethlon.
-Wario doesn't have a readily available projectile or reflector and he has a decent recovery so it's sorta similar to Sonic...
So anyways:
-Chaingrab to 40% can't be escaped if done right
-Lasers when far away/send you off stage (so watch your spin moves when recovering)
-Up close all attacks used are fast (jab/fair/nair/ftilt)
-Easily can punish shielded spin dash jumps with uair/fair/bair... probably even dair.
-When on offense, bair beats Sonic's because it comes out faster... not because it outranges.
-Commonly kills sonic with uair/usmash/fsmash/bair (spring counters dair almost everytime)
Common mistake Sonic makes: Falco has bad recovery so I just have to get him off stage and gimp his feathery butt.
The goal Sonic is missing is actually effectively dealing damage to Falco.
Missing Sonic's grab can cost 40% or more.
Sonic's jab combo really stinks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0bROVxgNfk#t=1m15s ... can someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like it's never a good idea to go past the first jab when your opponent is on the ground and has any common sense to shield/jab back.
It would seem that Sonic can't beat Falco at jab range... but Sonic's ftilt outranges Falco's jab/dtilt/ftilt/grab. Sonic's bair outranges Falco's which is why you generally won't see Falco using bair to approach.
Falco's various laser patterns clearly ruin spin dash approaches at long range:
-Walking/running with shield/spot dodge is probably best when far away.
-ASC and SD>shield cancel are best used when at mid range.
At this point Falco will generally back off the lasers and either make more room with a retreat/illusion or make a more aggressive attack. It most likely depends on what percents your both at:
-WIth you closer to 0 he may look for a approach like >aerial (dair)>jab>grab>chain grab
-If he's near an edge/higher percent illusion is a more likely move.
-He can always throw out a ftilt too.
Bottom Line: Falco really has an answer for almost all of Sonic's attacks. Getting past the laser, but not walking into his next setup is the real challenge. Get really good at spacing with Sonic while still being unpredictable and you stand a chance.
With that all in mind if I would try to get in that mid-to close range area, mix up ftilts/fairs and dash attacks while also trying to bait with ASC/SD>shield cancel... and occasionally go right in with a usmash or grab. The tough part would be keeping my cool to not walk into lasers or execute wreckless attacks when taking multiple hits.
Fair and uair would probably be how I try to escape besides spring and I would try very hard to not start a spin charge/dash the moment I have a little breathing room.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SySF5ugCQbw#t=7m15s
-He places well in midwest events (WI/IL... don't know if he's gone anywhere else)
-He's another good Falco to watch besides Sethlon.
-Wario doesn't have a readily available projectile or reflector and he has a decent recovery so it's sorta similar to Sonic...
So anyways:
-Chaingrab to 40% can't be escaped if done right
-Lasers when far away/send you off stage (so watch your spin moves when recovering)
-Up close all attacks used are fast (jab/fair/nair/ftilt)
-Easily can punish shielded spin dash jumps with uair/fair/bair... probably even dair.
-When on offense, bair beats Sonic's because it comes out faster... not because it outranges.
-Commonly kills sonic with uair/usmash/fsmash/bair (spring counters dair almost everytime)
Common mistake Sonic makes: Falco has bad recovery so I just have to get him off stage and gimp his feathery butt.
The goal Sonic is missing is actually effectively dealing damage to Falco.
Missing Sonic's grab can cost 40% or more.
Sonic's jab combo really stinks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0bROVxgNfk#t=1m15s ... can someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like it's never a good idea to go past the first jab when your opponent is on the ground and has any common sense to shield/jab back.
It would seem that Sonic can't beat Falco at jab range... but Sonic's ftilt outranges Falco's jab/dtilt/ftilt/grab. Sonic's bair outranges Falco's which is why you generally won't see Falco using bair to approach.
Falco's various laser patterns clearly ruin spin dash approaches at long range:
-Walking/running with shield/spot dodge is probably best when far away.
-ASC and SD>shield cancel are best used when at mid range.
At this point Falco will generally back off the lasers and either make more room with a retreat/illusion or make a more aggressive attack. It most likely depends on what percents your both at:
-WIth you closer to 0 he may look for a approach like >aerial (dair)>jab>grab>chain grab
-If he's near an edge/higher percent illusion is a more likely move.
-He can always throw out a ftilt too.
Bottom Line: Falco really has an answer for almost all of Sonic's attacks. Getting past the laser, but not walking into his next setup is the real challenge. Get really good at spacing with Sonic while still being unpredictable and you stand a chance.
With that all in mind if I would try to get in that mid-to close range area, mix up ftilts/fairs and dash attacks while also trying to bait with ASC/SD>shield cancel... and occasionally go right in with a usmash or grab. The tough part would be keeping my cool to not walk into lasers or execute wreckless attacks when taking multiple hits.
Fair and uair would probably be how I try to escape besides spring and I would try very hard to not start a spin charge/dash the moment I have a little breathing room.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
thanks to magnum, i learned that sonic has a gauranteed triple d tilt to grab all the way up to about 40%. Falcos 2 frame well ranged jab beats a lot of sonics attacks so staying close is usually a bad idea.
you can also beat his illusion with any long lasting hit box. those include fair, nair and up smash.
if you can pull it off, falcos illusion gets WRECKED by up smash, if you force him to use up b to recover, he probably shouldnt make it back.
my method to beat lasers.
walk
duck
walk
duck
walk
duck
hyphen smash.
its a very subtle mind game. its still possible for the falco to hit you with the second SHd lazer. but its very hard to time. he will probably miss the first 2 times, and than he will be putting all his effort into trying to time his lasers right, and NOT focusing on defending him self from the incoming up smash.
also, because falco has an amazing chain grab they probably dont know much about defending grabs. and as such, they could possibly let you GR CG them.
sonic actually has more melee range than falco but the lasers make it so that its dangerous to stay too far away. so you have be like marth and be very particular with your spacing.
Falco has a definite advantage but some slick mindgames and some off stage agression sonic can net himself a win.
you can also beat his illusion with any long lasting hit box. those include fair, nair and up smash.
if you can pull it off, falcos illusion gets WRECKED by up smash, if you force him to use up b to recover, he probably shouldnt make it back.
my method to beat lasers.
walk
duck
walk
duck
walk
duck
hyphen smash.
its a very subtle mind game. its still possible for the falco to hit you with the second SHd lazer. but its very hard to time. he will probably miss the first 2 times, and than he will be putting all his effort into trying to time his lasers right, and NOT focusing on defending him self from the incoming up smash.
also, because falco has an amazing chain grab they probably dont know much about defending grabs. and as such, they could possibly let you GR CG them.
sonic actually has more melee range than falco but the lasers make it so that its dangerous to stay too far away. so you have be like marth and be very particular with your spacing.
Falco has a definite advantage but some slick mindgames and some off stage agression sonic can net himself a win.
Kinzer
Mammy
Can Sonic even duck under his LAZAHS!?
Way to waste my 6001st post...
Way to waste my 6001st post...
Ken Neth
Smash Champion
Hey, you the sonic boards should help discuss the sonic-snake matchup in this thread.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthrea...96#post7325596
I know how much you all love voicing your opinions
But seriously, your help would be greatly appreciated. Let's face it, you know more about your main than we do, and you can help us make this matchup discussion as accurate as possible. Thanks a lot
http://www.smashboards.com/showthrea...96#post7325596
I know how much you all love voicing your opinions
But seriously, your help would be greatly appreciated. Let's face it, you know more about your main than we do, and you can help us make this matchup discussion as accurate as possible. Thanks a lot
Kinzer
Mammy
I get an error.
Anybody else?
Anybody else?
RenegadeRaven
Smash Ace
yeah mee too
I had to stalk his posts lol
I had to stalk his posts lol
darkNES386
Smash Lord
So KID you're saying:
dtilt>dtilt>dtilt>grab>pummel...>throw can rack up serious percent on Falco?
dtilt>dtilt>dtilt>grab>pummel...>throw can rack up serious percent on Falco?
Kinzer
Mammy
He is a spacie.
RenegadeRaven
Smash Ace
It's really hard to tell the dis/advantages from the even match ups. Mind using a different color? >_>
Chis
Finally a legend
It's orange, white and blue...
Ken Neth
Smash Champion
Oh, sorry about that. I don't know how that copy/paste got messed up.. Here's the real link to the discussion for those of you that would like to add to it.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=232829
Edit: Checked it just to make sure, and the link is correct this time. Thanks guys.
Here's the real link to the discussion for those of you that would like to add to it. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=232829
Edit: Checked it just to make sure, and the link is correct this time. Thanks guys.
RenegadeRaven
Smash Ace
I meant the small dis/advantages, they're all white. >_> Or close to it.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
The Samus boards are talkin about sonic this week. Head on over and throw in your 2 cents please.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222783
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222783
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Oh wow, we're popular. The discussion going down the tier list is coming to an end :D
Chis
Finally a legend
This match up thread is based on high level of play. At a high level, 'mind games happen. Aka, baiting, punishing and creating opportunities. Therefore I say that it should be factored into discussion. :D
Kinzer
Mammy
Too bad we can't factor it because nobody wants to admit Sonic is the best mindgame character and make his matchups into his opponents' favor more.
Ken Neth
Smash Champion
I'll admit it, Kinzer.
Kinzer
Mammy
Oh.
Fair enough, then I guess it's just the stubborn/mis/uninformed people.
Fair enough, then I guess it's just the stubborn/mis/uninformed people.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
MK write-up coming tomorrow.
ehm,
but mindgames are for winning, lol not for matchups.
Unless there's a certain significant thing that you can keep your opponent 'trapped' via mindgames.
Like low-aerial + side-B charge vs Ike. Ike doesn't have any quick aerials to hit in front of him, so you can pretty much force airdodges/hits from that. But then again that's not necessarily Sonic-Ike specific.
The best thing you can pull from 'mindgame potential' in the matchup is to make the other side acknowledge what moves you can pull openings from - like (strawman):
if your opponent believes that they can brickwall you and your spindashes with F-tilt, but F-tilt is punishable out of shield or out of range, then you can bring up side-B cancels and say "well, we can still punish that move if you miss or get baited by a side-B charge, so that's not a completely unbreakable wall"
but mindgames are for winning, lol not for matchups.
Unless there's a certain significant thing that you can keep your opponent 'trapped' via mindgames.
Like low-aerial + side-B charge vs Ike. Ike doesn't have any quick aerials to hit in front of him, so you can pretty much force airdodges/hits from that. But then again that's not necessarily Sonic-Ike specific.
The best thing you can pull from 'mindgame potential' in the matchup is to make the other side acknowledge what moves you can pull openings from - like (strawman):
if your opponent believes that they can brickwall you and your spindashes with F-tilt, but F-tilt is punishable out of shield or out of range, then you can bring up side-B cancels and say "well, we can still punish that move if you miss or get baited by a side-B charge, so that's not a completely unbreakable wall"
darkNES386
Smash Lord
Chis just get rid of the mid range colors and pick the ones that we aren't using.... we're never going to have a 30:70 or 70:30 and those colors are really easy to distinguish between. Get those more active.
Kinzer
Mammy
LOL we don't even have any advantageous matchups past 55:45 solidified, and even then it's a stretch.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
i want to talk about the MK release grab
RenegadeRaven
Smash Ace
True, because i think if Link does it right, he could pull it closer to even.
¤Vivi Orunitia¤
Smash Apprentice
Sonic grab release on MK....that's interesting, I'd like to hear about it as well.
Didn't you say something about grab releasing him into a DACUS in another thread?
Kinzer
Mammy
Correct (on him saying that, I'm unsure myself of whether the statement itself holds true or not).
However Sonic cannot force MK to air-break.
However Sonic cannot force MK to air-break.
Browny
Smash Hater
Since i hate matchup ratios with a passion, I devise a new idea for the matchup image
Simply, have 5 colours. something like red for counter, orange slight disadvantage, white even, green advantage, blue Sonic's conter (lol sonic has none). Im quite sure many of us could come to an agreement on the placings when we set such criteria. from there, we add the matchup ratio in text.
I just cant agree with some of these numbers (olimar being 45:55 lol) and this way at least if we cant agree on a number, we can all agree on a disadvantage (I would think any sane person would say this is a disadvantage).
For example I would put something like this
Mario - Even
DK - Disadvantage
Link - Advantage
Samus - Advantage
ZSS - Disadvantage
Marth - Counter
Kirby - Disadvantage
Fox - Disadvantage
Pikachu - Disadvantage
Luigi - Disadvantage
G&W - Counter
Ness - Even
ROB - Disadvantage
Snake - Disadvantage
Peach - Disadvantage
Zelda - Even
MK - Counter
IC - Disadvantage
Yoshi - Even
Falco - Disadvantage
Ganon - Advantage
Falcon - Even
Sheik - Disadvantage
Pit - Disadvantage
Wario - Counter
Olimar - Disadvantage
PT - Even
Lucas - Even
Diddy - Even
DeDeDe - Disadvantage
Ike - Even
Jiggs - Even
TL - Disadvantage
Wolf - Disadvantage
Bowser - Even
Lucario - Counter
Now for each of these ratings, the ratio added to the colour could vary by +/-10 each way. Ie, a white square could go fom 40:60 to 60:40. More examples, I consider Falcon and bowser to be even. I also think in reality, sonic should beat falcon more often, and lose to bowser more often. Sonic doesnt have an obvious advantage (such as a chaingrab) to warrant an advantage on falcon, while bowser similarly does not have enough to warrant a natural advantage on sonic which would put him in the same league as wolf. Similarly, I think that Lucario has more than a natural advantage over Sonic than someone like shiek, in the form of his inability to be comboed and of course getting stronger as he lives longer, something sonic will have to deal with often.
I just think that is more useful than simply numbers. when people come in to that comparison thread and say stuff like 'XXX goes 40:60 with snake/mk, 45:55 vs wario/falco, even vs marth/G&W therefore are better than Sonic' etc it gets REALLY ANNOYING. All that matters is that you are at a constant disadvantage, and no arbitrary numbers based on theory can tell you how bad the matchup is, only experience will let you know if its even ,bad, or horrible imo. All we need to know is whether its a disadvantage or not, and whether that disadvantage is severe enough to warrant a counterpick character. Of course, the numbers will remain, but they will not be used as the sole reference when determining matchups across the entire cast
Simply, have 5 colours. something like red for counter, orange slight disadvantage, white even, green advantage, blue Sonic's conter (lol sonic has none). Im quite sure many of us could come to an agreement on the placings when we set such criteria. from there, we add the matchup ratio in text.
I just cant agree with some of these numbers (olimar being 45:55 lol) and this way at least if we cant agree on a number, we can all agree on a disadvantage (I would think any sane person would say this is a disadvantage).
For example I would put something like this
Mario - Even
DK - Disadvantage
Link - Advantage
Samus - Advantage
ZSS - Disadvantage
Marth - Counter
Kirby - Disadvantage
Fox - Disadvantage
Pikachu - Disadvantage
Luigi - Disadvantage
G&W - Counter
Ness - Even
ROB - Disadvantage
Snake - Disadvantage
Peach - Disadvantage
Zelda - Even
MK - Counter
IC - Disadvantage
Yoshi - Even
Falco - Disadvantage
Ganon - Advantage
Falcon - Even
Sheik - Disadvantage
Pit - Disadvantage
Wario - Counter
Olimar - Disadvantage
PT - Even
Lucas - Even
Diddy - Even
DeDeDe - Disadvantage
Ike - Even
Jiggs - Even
TL - Disadvantage
Wolf - Disadvantage
Bowser - Even
Lucario - Counter
Now for each of these ratings, the ratio added to the colour could vary by +/-10 each way. Ie, a white square could go fom 40:60 to 60:40. More examples, I consider Falcon and bowser to be even. I also think in reality, sonic should beat falcon more often, and lose to bowser more often. Sonic doesnt have an obvious advantage (such as a chaingrab) to warrant an advantage on falcon, while bowser similarly does not have enough to warrant a natural advantage on sonic which would put him in the same league as wolf. Similarly, I think that Lucario has more than a natural advantage over Sonic than someone like shiek, in the form of his inability to be comboed and of course getting stronger as he lives longer, something sonic will have to deal with often.
I just think that is more useful than simply numbers. when people come in to that comparison thread and say stuff like 'XXX goes 40:60 with snake/mk, 45:55 vs wario/falco, even vs marth/G&W therefore are better than Sonic' etc it gets REALLY ANNOYING. All that matters is that you are at a constant disadvantage, and no arbitrary numbers based on theory can tell you how bad the matchup is, only experience will let you know if its even ,bad, or horrible imo. All we need to know is whether its a disadvantage or not, and whether that disadvantage is severe enough to warrant a counterpick character. Of course, the numbers will remain, but they will not be used as the sole reference when determining matchups across the entire cast
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
But-itzah-me!
Smash Rookie
I'm not sure how effective that would be. It seems that with the current method, we are simply splitting hairs with how close the ratios are, but in Sonic's case I believe it is needed...
Wherever he can claim a slight advantage (even if it turns out to be 51:49) is important for his image. If everyone thinks that sonic really doesn't have the edge over every character that commonly appears in tourny's, then we will start to see less Sonics being played.
Other than that, the only match-up I don't agree with is against D3. I believe him to be more of a counter rather than simply at an advantage. Most D3's I play use WaddleDee's and the like very effectively - they cancel side-b but not down-b. Furthermore, D3's B-air is ridiculously strong and out prioritizes most of Sonic's arials, AND Sonic can be chaingrabbed, if not infinited...(not sure about the infinite though.)
I would say at least 70:30 for DeDeDe.
Rickerdy-doo-da-day
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2008
- Messages
- 4,861
- NNID
- RicardoAvocado
I cannot fight Falco with Sonic to save my life
The lasers don't fuss me that much. It's his ruddy Nair and chaingrab that makes me feel helpless. Unless I'm doing it wrong, Falco can chaingrab Sonic and Dair spike him like other characters. Good thing Sonic has very good recovery
However, when it comes to approaching...I'm at a loss. Falco's Nair rips through just about everything. Grabbing is dangerous cause if you miss and he grabs you, it's chaingrab to follow up time. Whilst they aren't too bad since Sonic can get in Falco's face pretty quickly, lasers are very irritating and force you to stop and avoid them (or get hit)
Help :<
The lasers don't fuss me that much. It's his ruddy Nair and chaingrab that makes me feel helpless. Unless I'm doing it wrong, Falco can chaingrab Sonic and Dair spike him like other characters. Good thing Sonic has very good recovery
However, when it comes to approaching...I'm at a loss. Falco's Nair rips through just about everything. Grabbing is dangerous cause if you miss and he grabs you, it's chaingrab to follow up time. Whilst they aren't too bad since Sonic can get in Falco's face pretty quickly, lasers are very irritating and force you to stop and avoid them (or get hit)
Help :<
RenegadeRaven
Smash Ace
Really, Waddle Dees are a joke, By the time D3 gets 1 out, Sonic will already be on his ***. If D3 starts to use those, it's like a free fair for Sonic. And Don't worry, Sonic's not gonna be approaching with any of his spin dashes. Lol, we've learned not to do that a few months back.
Yes D3's bair can be a pain, but D3 has no real set up for it, if I can remember correctly. What he will mostly be doing is trying to WOP Sonic with it. All we really need to do is space the first bair, and punish him with fair/uair/ftilt before he lands or pulls out another one. Just play smart and Sonic should be ok.
The chain grab seems to be the only real problem Sonic has against D3. But even so, it doesn't last very long. And since Sonic can combo D3 pretty nicely, this match up really shouldn't be a problem. Especially since Sonic is one of the more harder characters to grab. Without the chain grab, i can see this being more even It's the only real thing D3 has against him.
But yeah, D3 has some nice priority. We just need to not be so aggressive against him.