Kinzer
Mammy
Bair is still sexy though, and I really don't find hitting Wario out of his Bike all that hard (at least if you are able to predict it, that's a different story).
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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread
- Thread starter Chis
- Start date
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
ok, since people are STILL misinformed...
in order to knock snake out of his cypher, you must hit snake with a move that does 7% or more IN ONE HIT.
fair will not work because the last hit only does 3-4%
HOWEVER
Sometimes snake will let go of his cypher early and try to airdodge past an attack that would normally hit him out of it.
since fair has so many hits, that hit so close together, it is possible for a fair to start hitting snake, and if he tries to let go and airdodge after the first hit or two he will be sucked into the rest of the fair and take the knockback from the rest of it normally.
Which is where I THINK the disconnect is coming in for many people.
I am now going to the yoshi boards to learn how to break his second jump.
Warios bike I dont care much about, seeing as I dont think it has armor, but i just think that the bike has a hurtbox seperate and independant from wario and thats its really big, so it can give you the impression that you hit wario but you only really hit the bike. but im going to the wario boards to confirm this now.
in order to knock snake out of his cypher, you must hit snake with a move that does 7% or more IN ONE HIT.
fair will not work because the last hit only does 3-4%
HOWEVER
Sometimes snake will let go of his cypher early and try to airdodge past an attack that would normally hit him out of it.
since fair has so many hits, that hit so close together, it is possible for a fair to start hitting snake, and if he tries to let go and airdodge after the first hit or two he will be sucked into the rest of the fair and take the knockback from the rest of it normally.
Which is where I THINK the disconnect is coming in for many people.
I am now going to the yoshi boards to learn how to break his second jump.
Warios bike I dont care much about, seeing as I dont think it has armor, but i just think that the bike has a hurtbox seperate and independant from wario and thats its really big, so it can give you the impression that you hit wario but you only really hit the bike. but im going to the wario boards to confirm this now.
Kinzer
Mammy
I believe Yoshi's SA has a damage cap, meaning that they can take even a fully charged bucket and still not be affected.
If I'm not making any sense, think of it as this:
Yoshi's super armor works like a vest that as it takes more hits, gets weaker until it just stops working all together. The vest at 0% can take hits that do 150% (which is also where the cap is) and less, but as Yoshi gets higher up in damage it will work as so to a lesser degree.
So if Yoshi is at like 120%, this means that Yoshi can only take any hit that does 30% damage or less, if anything does more than that (which is a bit more realistic than Yoshi getting hit by a PK Flash-empowered G&W bucketed-Ike Countered hit), it will hit him out of it and deal the damage.
Good luck hitting him out of his second jump though, most of them like to airdodge or something.
Also KID you're right on the Wario bike, it has it's own hurtbox, which explains why the thing can be destroyed to get its wheels.
If I'm not making any sense, think of it as this:
Yoshi's super armor works like a vest that as it takes more hits, gets weaker until it just stops working all together. The vest at 0% can take hits that do 150% (which is also where the cap is) and less, but as Yoshi gets higher up in damage it will work as so to a lesser degree.
So if Yoshi is at like 120%, this means that Yoshi can only take any hit that does 30% damage or less, if anything does more than that (which is a bit more realistic than Yoshi getting hit by a PK Flash-empowered G&W bucketed-Ike Countered hit), it will hit him out of it and deal the damage.
Good luck hitting him out of his second jump though, most of them like to airdodge or something.
Also KID you're right on the Wario bike, it has it's own hurtbox, which explains why the thing can be destroyed to get its wheels.
Chis
Finally a legend
Yeah, I don't come here often, so move on to ZSS please.
Kinzer
Mammy
Oh I love boobies Zero Suit. Such a fun match when you aren't getting hit by whatever.
You're going to put up with my sexual puns whether you like it or not, because Vegas has this very great Zero Suit playermore like I am a 16 year old boy who is just packing on hormones, and you need to know just a little bit more than "practicing powershields", even though it is as important as maintaining a good relationship. However, I do owe it to Malcolm, because if he didn't tell me something like "needz moar PSs" in the first place, I would be having a lot more trouble with her in bed. Before I got Malcolm's help I just had to hope and get lucky she wouldn't get pregnant, now I just lose because I still have matchup inexperience or I mess-up or she is being quite uncooperative.
Armor pieces weren't too bad, all you have to do is either let her throw them away (this would be a bad idea... or good, depending on how well your opponent knows you and how well they know your item control), and knowing how fast Sonic is she will only have time to work with one armor piece. Depending on how you approach might either get you hitOr a nice slap to the face or make the other player panic. Just keep your cool and find one that works for you. If they try to throw it right to you either start picking up an aerial approach or hold the shield. If you're confident that you can build up testosterone damage with the armor pieces try to keep them around and under control, if not get rid of them so neither of you can work with them, but start working on that if you're lacking here.
I wonder, did I miss out on this matchup discussion the first time around from Sonic's perspective? Regardless, I'm glad we're back on this now.
After the armor pieces are gone, somebody is going to have damage tacked on them, and in semi-rare cases a stock lose. Assuming you're not down a stock then you just play the matchup like normal without the hassle of the items... very patiently.
Side-B will space you, but good thing you're Sonic, what with your running speed and your running shield, you can get past the pushback of the side-B and DA/Tilt/Up-smash (maybe not). It also has that void somewhere in the middle, if you get past the hitbox then just dandy, more options for you! Might want to be careful about thatsass paralyzer gun though, if that stuff hits you, you will leave yourself right open for any direct groin attack, some that could kill you. Luckily your shield should not be too deplited fighting with her, it's just a matter of knowing when to shield and strike/run-away to regenerate it back. It's not like Snake's UTilt where it just comes out and kills you from 1/2 across FD noooooooo.
I will also tell you that she can recovery, don't think that just because she has a tether recovery she'll somehow not make it back or chase you off stage, spike you with that stupid sex-kick of hers, and then come back. So either learn to airdodge and/or recovery high and still maintain unpredictability or start using protection.
I won't bother commenting much else, it really is just not getting read so you won't get followed up with anymore strings.
You're going to put up with my sexual puns whether you like it or not, because Vegas has this very great Zero Suit player
Armor pieces weren't too bad, all you have to do is either let her throw them away (this would be a bad idea... or good, depending on how well your opponent knows you and how well they know your item control), and knowing how fast Sonic is she will only have time to work with one armor piece. Depending on how you approach might either get you hit
I wonder, did I miss out on this matchup discussion the first time around from Sonic's perspective? Regardless, I'm glad we're back on this now.
After the armor pieces are gone, somebody is going to have damage tacked on them, and in semi-rare cases a stock lose. Assuming you're not down a stock then you just play the matchup like normal without the hassle of the items... very patiently.
Side-B will space you, but good thing you're Sonic, what with your running speed and your running shield, you can get past the pushback of the side-B and DA/Tilt/Up-smash (maybe not). It also has that void somewhere in the middle, if you get past the hitbox then just dandy, more options for you! Might want to be careful about that
I will also tell you that she can recovery, don't think that just because she has a tether recovery she'll somehow not make it back or chase you off stage, spike you with that stupid sex-kick of hers, and then come back. So either learn to airdodge and/or recovery high and still maintain unpredictability
I won't bother commenting much else, it really is just not getting read so you won't get followed up with anymore strings.
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ZSS is easy if you can powershield, edgeguard, and gimp...lol
She has just as hard a time killing as us, or even harder. One of her best killing moves (Side-B) is usually stale due to how much it's used to space (THIS COULD BE PLAYER DEPENDENT. I've just noticed that many ZSS go for Bair to kill [Usually from a Dsmash] rather than using SideB).
The only major concerns are her Dsmash and her one frame jab. Dsmash just ***** everything, but that can even be punished with a SH Bair. Powershield the jabs and you should be okay, but it makes for a **** punisher since she can react out of any 'neutral' position way faster than Sonic (when moves clank, etc.)
Her stun gun is pretty ineffective against Sonic imo due to how slow it is and how much lag she puts herself in.
I don't have TOO much ZSS practice, but this is what I've gotten out of it.
I've played a ZSS in tourney and played SupermodelFromParis on WiFi.
She has just as hard a time killing as us, or even harder. One of her best killing moves (Side-B) is usually stale due to how much it's used to space (THIS COULD BE PLAYER DEPENDENT. I've just noticed that many ZSS go for Bair to kill [Usually from a Dsmash] rather than using SideB).
The only major concerns are her Dsmash and her one frame jab. Dsmash just ***** everything, but that can even be punished with a SH Bair. Powershield the jabs and you should be okay, but it makes for a **** punisher since she can react out of any 'neutral' position way faster than Sonic (when moves clank, etc.)
Her stun gun is pretty ineffective against Sonic imo due to how slow it is and how much lag she puts herself in.
I don't have TOO much ZSS practice, but this is what I've gotten out of it.
I've played a ZSS in tourney and played SupermodelFromParis on WiFi.
Kinzer
Mammy
They also love to kill with Uair.
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Oh yes, trufax.
UpB > Uair is ****.
One more bit about ZSS is how decieving her DownB is. That hitbox lasts FOREVER >_>
Then when you think it's over she spikes you at the last second with the kick...
Chis, I lol'd at "Fan service"
ZSS can kill with like, anything out of D-smash so long as it hits at the right %. They have some interesting DI traps (like, you DI towards the stage, then they'll jump back and U-air, or B-air or something like that), but I'm not familiar with them and usually get ***** due to that + wifi. I mean, they're legit traps, but it's harder to switch directions on time online.
lol@ powershield jabs.
Unless you meant out of clank.
lol@ powershield jabs.
Unless you meant out of clank.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
for all intents and purposes, lets just say that down smash is her best kill move, and that it kills at about 150. Because in order for her to kill be fore that, she has to chase you out to the blastzone really far.
and she doesnt have any super kill you at 100 power move that you can use if you ever get your opponent to stand still for 2 seconds, seeing as she actually has the ability to make you stand still for an extended amount of time.
and she doesnt have any super kill you at 100 power move that you can use if you ever get your opponent to stand still for 2 seconds, seeing as she actually has the ability to make you stand still for an extended amount of time.
~TBS~
Smash Champion
wait, wut? Are you referring to the time frame she has to perform the kick-spike or the hitbox that has a lasting spike hitbox?Oh yes, trufax.
UpB > Uair is ****.
One more bit about ZSS is how decieving her DownB is. That hitbox lasts FOREVER >_>
Then when you think it's over she spikes you at the last second with the kick...
Chis, I lol'd at "Fan service"
~TBS~
Smash Champion
Doesnt the programmers see this type of things? So, just P-Shield moar in this matchup? And watch out for dsmash, uair, bair, side-B, AVIOD DOWN-B, right? Well, does ZSS have to setup her dsmash with some other kinds of moves? I havent played a ZSS in a while
Kinzer
Mammy
Speed, if they did, D3 wouldn't have infinites/CGs, and Snake wouldn't have tilts that hit you from over 9,000 miles away. Sonic would also have his real GD HA too...
Regardless, yes, just PS moar, and don't be above or behind herUnless you're in bed to avoid the look the killer aerials.
Zero Suit also has no set-ups for her DSmash, except for your failure to shield/avoid it... Maybe some traps like being pitted on the ledge with her, but otherwise she really has little ways to land her DSmash on you, honest.
Which that reminds me, what do people think of the MU ratio for this anyway? I could see it being even or maybe only slightly in Zero Suit's favor, which is really nothing when you're in perfect play. Then you have counterpicks which might make it into Sonic's favor but we're just focusing on normal circumstances here, right?
Regardless, yes, just PS moar, and don't be above or behind her
Zero Suit also has no set-ups for her DSmash, except for your failure to shield/avoid it... Maybe some traps like being pitted on the ledge with her, but otherwise she really has little ways to land her DSmash on you, honest.
Which that reminds me, what do people think of the MU ratio for this anyway? I could see it being even or maybe only slightly in Zero Suit's favor, which is really nothing when you're in perfect play. Then you have counterpicks which might make it into Sonic's favor but we're just focusing on normal circumstances here, right?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
I say sonics favor
Kinzer
Mammy
...Why have we yet to invite any of the Zero Suit's here?
I would just think that it would be bit of a more unbiased rediscussion if we had somebody over here...
...You know, even if I might get scolded for being perverted if they bother to have read my previous posts, I need them over here just s that we don't look bad to future readers thinking we're all biased b*****s and preaching to ourselves how Sonic has a lolwut?-advantageous matchup against a top-high tier character.
I would just think that it would be bit of a more unbiased rediscussion if we had somebody over here...
...You know, even if I might get scolded for being perverted if they bother to have read my previous posts, I need them over here just s that we don't look bad to future readers thinking we're all biased b*****s and preaching to ourselves how Sonic has a lolwut?-advantageous matchup against a top-high tier character.
I hesitate to mention dtilt on the Sonic boards, but it is a move that Sonic will have to watch out for, mostly because it's fast, and beats a lot of moves in the range department. It's also used at low percents as a mindgame/setup for dsmash, which will give Sonic troubles to be sure (don't airdodge after getting hit by dsmash).
In this match-up, I'd say it still comes down to who gets put in the air first. Both Sonic and ZSS lack 100% reliable approaches, and so it will be all about who is more often forced to approach or cross up, both of which can be punished by either. Stick to short hops and grounded approaches, but be wary, because dsmash and dtilt control the ground fairly well, while SH nair and paralyzer control your SH height.
Be careful on recovery. An upB that doesn't auto ledgesnap is ZSS's favorite thing, so definitely avoid recovering low, and if you have to do so, try to fit an airdodge in there if at all possible, otherwise you'll most likely eat a dsmash.
Personally, I always saw the match-up as even, since it seems to be mostly about whoever gets the timing and spacing of their approaches and defenses most consistently.
In this match-up, I'd say it still comes down to who gets put in the air first. Both Sonic and ZSS lack 100% reliable approaches, and so it will be all about who is more often forced to approach or cross up, both of which can be punished by either. Stick to short hops and grounded approaches, but be wary, because dsmash and dtilt control the ground fairly well, while SH nair and paralyzer control your SH height.
Be careful on recovery. An upB that doesn't auto ledgesnap is ZSS's favorite thing, so definitely avoid recovering low, and if you have to do so, try to fit an airdodge in there if at all possible, otherwise you'll most likely eat a dsmash.
Personally, I always saw the match-up as even, since it seems to be mostly about whoever gets the timing and spacing of their approaches and defenses most consistently.
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Yes, lol.
Bad wording on my part I suppose.
wait, wut? Are you referring to the time frame she has to perform the kick-spike or the hitbox that has a lasting spike hitbox?
Moar yes.
I second this post.
Kinzer
Mammy
...Except the part about that Down Tilt...
Is it really that troublesome, or do I just not see any Zero Suits really utilizing it?
Being serious or sarcastic, something about that just made me go
Is it really that troublesome, or do I just not see any Zero Suits really utilizing it?
Being serious or sarcastic, something about that just made me go
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It's not that Dtilt shuts down Sonic's options, it's just troublesome because it sets you up for aerial followups....Except the part about that Down Tilt...
Is it really that troublesome, or do I just not see any Zero Suits really utilizing it?
Being serious or sarcastic, something about that just made me go
However, I don't really think it really OUTRANGES Sonic that much. Pretty sure a Ftilt can beat that.
Kinzer
Mammy
That's funny, I thought Down Tilt was suppose to shut down Sonic.
Regardless TY Camal, I knew something was up but I forgot.
FTilt is so sexy. Aerials like Fair & Bair work nice too but taking it slow is a major mindgame with Sonic, like seriously.
I agree with everything else mentioned though.
Regardless TY Camal, I knew something was up but I forgot.
FTilt is so sexy. Aerials like Fair & Bair work nice too but taking it slow is a major mindgame with Sonic, like seriously.
I agree with everything else mentioned though.
Obviously it shuts Sonic down; it's a down tilt.
Seriously, though, ftilt might out range it. Dtilt does stick a bit of ZSS out in front of her, so it does expose her a little bit (stay focused, now). I dunno about other ZSSes, but I use dtilt for spacing at close range, and for shield pressure, because it's fast, has good push-back, and is easy to follow up if they try to roll away. It won't really be used defensively, but rather more for mid-to-close range pressure.
Seriously, though, ftilt might out range it. Dtilt does stick a bit of ZSS out in front of her, so it does expose her a little bit (stay focused, now). I dunno about other ZSSes, but I use dtilt for spacing at close range, and for shield pressure, because it's fast, has good push-back, and is easy to follow up if they try to roll away. It won't really be used defensively, but rather more for mid-to-close range pressure.
Umby
Smash Master
Ph00tbag vs Umby at HERB 2. Yes?
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
It is very very easy for Sonic to close the distance. That can be a problem for ZSS and it can make her sweat. I second what ph00t says, here are some of my own thoughts though.
Watch out for dtilt (... seriously, though) and jab. Our jab out-prioritizes your spindash attacks and we can hold the button down. It does a good job of putting the breaks on spammy Sonic players. Even if we're not holding the button (which makes it easy for you to stop your roll by shielding) it comes out in one frame and can be used to stop your approaches very easily.
The other thing I would look out for is the fact that this is a momentum fight and ZSS just builds damage faster and finishes easier. If you let us take the momentum from you things will get very ugly, very fast. Two dsmashes and an aerial is an easy 30-40% damage and there's nothing you can do to match that kind of damage that quickly (to ZSS anyway).
Fortunately for Sonic it's very easy for him to keep the momentum because he does a very good job of limiting her breathing room.
50:50, give or take 5 points.
Watch out for dtilt (... seriously, though) and jab. Our jab out-prioritizes your spindash attacks and we can hold the button down. It does a good job of putting the breaks on spammy Sonic players. Even if we're not holding the button (which makes it easy for you to stop your roll by shielding) it comes out in one frame and can be used to stop your approaches very easily.
The other thing I would look out for is the fact that this is a momentum fight and ZSS just builds damage faster and finishes easier. If you let us take the momentum from you things will get very ugly, very fast. Two dsmashes and an aerial is an easy 30-40% damage and there's nothing you can do to match that kind of damage that quickly (to ZSS anyway).
Fortunately for Sonic it's very easy for him to keep the momentum because he does a very good job of limiting her breathing room.
50:50, give or take 5 points.
Browny
Smash Hater
Dont get dsmashed.
Its actually not that hard... ive played vs a few ZSS mains in tournament with 1 thing on my mind. DONT GET DSMASHED and it like, works. quite well.
treat it the same way you do Zeldas uair or something lol
Its actually not that hard... ive played vs a few ZSS mains in tournament with 1 thing on my mind. DONT GET DSMASHED and it like, works. quite well.
treat it the same way you do Zeldas uair or something lol
So what about the non-spindash approaches?
Like, the ones that make up the majority of alot of the good Sonic players' approaches lol
Chis
Finally a legend
I updated the OP and the chart. And I made a check list, and something else. It get's intesting from Ike mind.
Ordered by the tier list.
King Dedede
:shiek: Sheik
======= VVVV ================
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I was just talking about spin dashes! "Approach" wasn't the right word to use. Sorry :X
JayBee
Smash Champion
I play ZSS too, so i'll give my thoughts until we get the more infomred to show.
ZSS relies heavily on setups to get her damage, and most of that is from her B special and down smash. outside of that she zones with side b , B, and tilts. Zero's weakness is that when pressured she does not have a lot of options like, say, luigi up close. if sonic powershields well he can get in her grill quickly, and because her throw is so bad without setup it makes it harder.
i think her speed and range will give sonic problems, and she wants sonic at midrange.
killmoves wise, i think see will have just as much trouble if not more than sonic, but she has the zoning ability to deal more damage safely to negate this. but to kill with her you have to do more setting up IMO with her than with sonic.
both characters can have the advantage if they get under the other/juggling. spring dair is useless in this matchup.
if sonic tries to edgegaurd her... its gonna be hard because of the threat of side B and the down b spike. i dont think either will be gimping each other on a consistant basis.
the armor pieces are 50/50 if both sonic and Zss are good at them. if i was a zero against a sonic, unless i was very confident i'd probably throw most of them away.
if sonic gets in, his pressure game can really mess her up, but to get in, with her tools, it takes a ton of patience and not falling for mindgames.
i want to say 55:45 ZSS. im not sure yet though.
ZSS relies heavily on setups to get her damage, and most of that is from her B special and down smash. outside of that she zones with side b , B, and tilts. Zero's weakness is that when pressured she does not have a lot of options like, say, luigi up close. if sonic powershields well he can get in her grill quickly, and because her throw is so bad without setup it makes it harder.
i think her speed and range will give sonic problems, and she wants sonic at midrange.
killmoves wise, i think see will have just as much trouble if not more than sonic, but she has the zoning ability to deal more damage safely to negate this. but to kill with her you have to do more setting up IMO with her than with sonic.
both characters can have the advantage if they get under the other/juggling. spring dair is useless in this matchup.
if sonic tries to edgegaurd her... its gonna be hard because of the threat of side B and the down b spike. i dont think either will be gimping each other on a consistant basis.
the armor pieces are 50/50 if both sonic and Zss are good at them. if i was a zero against a sonic, unless i was very confident i'd probably throw most of them away.
if sonic gets in, his pressure game can really mess her up, but to get in, with her tools, it takes a ton of patience and not falling for mindgames.
i want to say 55:45 ZSS. im not sure yet though.
Chis
Finally a legend
So still 60:40 ZSS?
Kinzer
Mammy
Nuh uh.
Everyone agrees that Zero Suit Samus & Sonic are an even MU.
Everyone agrees that Zero Suit Samus & Sonic are an even MU.
RenegadeRaven
Smash Ace
I played my first Zero Suit and got my *** handed to me. Lol, If it's even, then there's still hope. =D
Otherwise I just have an excuse. >_>
Otherwise I just have an excuse. >_>
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RenegadeRaven
Smash Ace
lol, truuuue. But that's if I feel like picking up brawl again. *Has been out of it* ._.
/shame
/shame
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Oh hai Chis, if I use up all my time to make an excerpt of Link, will it actually go in the OP this time?
>__________>
**is still really upset that his **** ROB write up is not in the OP...**
>__________>
**is still really upset that his **** ROB write up is not in the OP...**
JayBee
Smash Champion
id say its close to even, maybe even give ZSS a slight advantage. her OoS options are limited, and if sonic gets close on her he can do alot. the armor pieces are a very important part of this matchup though. if she can control her pieces well, and sonic can't, its her advantage while they are active. i give her the edge only because of her side B forcing a more careful approach, and she can somewhat negate the aerial one. but like said she requires constant setup and mindgames so that's almost a player based thing.
get more zeros in here
EDit: actually change it to even. not getting hit by dsmash (which has no true setups for: she tries to bait you or trick you though with other things) which is unsafe to try if sonic is at medium range changes her ability to kill you since her SH aerial game is hard to pull off by itself, and side b is used to often in spacing, so its heavily unstaled. you'd have to be mindgamed often to die by her, and sonic will have to do the same to kill her since they lack reliable kill options, although i think sonic's mindgames are a bit more consistant overall.
get more zeros in here
EDit: actually change it to even. not getting hit by dsmash (which has no true setups for: she tries to bait you or trick you though with other things) which is unsafe to try if sonic is at medium range changes her ability to kill you since her SH aerial game is hard to pull off by itself, and side b is used to often in spacing, so its heavily unstaled. you'd have to be mindgamed often to die by her, and sonic will have to do the same to kill her since they lack reliable kill options, although i think sonic's mindgames are a bit more consistant overall.
Kinzer
Mammy
Ask him to help you then.
Why does no one ever, you know, like PM me or something?
If you do it will get done (especially if multiple people do so I don't forget).
Yes, it's been done.
If you do it will get done (especially if multiple people do so I don't forget).
Yes, it's been done.
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