Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[~TBS~]

I have been finemy friend, I have just been playing SF4. And thank you Jay B, I love miku too. she is jsut to ****ing sexy. And that vocie is just beauitful.

what the world, kojin? i thought her name was miku...KASR rules.
But, yeah Yoshi is even. Everything he has on us, we have something to counteract him with. The only thing thats somewhat bad is the grab release advantage. other than that, its pretty even. Hai ROOOOY!

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

what the world, kojin? i thought her name was miku...KASR rules.
But, yeah Yoshi is even. Everything he has on us, we have something to counteract him with. The only thing thats somewhat bad is the grab release advantage. other than that, its pretty even. Hai ROOOOY!

Hatsune is her last name SM5 *faceplams*

So yeah, the Peach boards made a chain grab list and sonic is kinda vulnerable to it(not much though, I think that its either 2-4 grabs >.>).

 

[Kinzer]

Talk about characters and all your shizz elsewhere fellas.

I say Yoshi is even, if not 5 points for Yoshi maybe, I think we kind of went over this sometime ago.

So I'm just going to hijack this thread and ask you all something.

How does fighting Powersuit Samus feel?

I wasn't around to check up on the matchup sadly, but from what I see it's even, not much disputable and it seems everybody agrees with this for the same reasons ( I won't give specifics yet).

...So with that aside Tudor kicked my a**. When I was just getting started we never really could finished a set or a match. Even so we went pretty much even, no clear-cut winners. As time passed though either he must've gotten much better or I must've stayed at the same palce/got worse, because he handily 2-3 stocked me. Something tells me Samus does d*** fine on Norfair, and even though I may suck the matchup between the characters is still even.

Someday I want to fight his Samus again, just to see if that still holds true or not.

Please discuss/opinions?

 

[~TBS~]

Well, lemme take a bite at dat sammich.

PS Samees is kinda fun to fight. On Norfair, Sonic has to rely on his aerials more than often, right? Samus' moves and Projectiles can do some damage there and set up some nasty combinations. I'd recommend a stage where Sonic can move better. I mean, can you give us some of the things that tripped you up?

 

[Kinzer]

I dunno, I think the thing I remember the most is that he told me I needed to work on my "mindgames" (God everybody tells me this same thing!), but when I think "mindgames" at the time he must've meant switch it up.

I was getting spiked quite frequently, so there ya go. Needs moar diversity.

It was so long ago, that's why I said I wish I could fight another pro Samus again just to see how it would turn out this time around.

 

[~TBS~]

Ah. Well, I cant help you much with Mindgames, thats made by the player's creative mind. Samus has greatly improved from when you fought Tudor. But, i think the most important thing is P-shielding. Her projectiles can mess you up if you arent careful. Being Sonic, we can find many ways around this, and isnt much of a problem. The problem is that both chars has problems killing. You have to be able to set things up and get into position to kill. If Sonic can't kill Samus' you are pretty much looking at a 2-3 stock. And norfair just makes it worse. Ah, i dont have any Samus players in my area, so I dont know much about their setups.

 

[Kinzer]

I find killing to be the last thing on my mind a lot of the time... which might explain why my opponents always end up forever and now I can see why people bring up that lame shizz about how fighting Sonic takes forever... Wonder if that's a bad thing in general or just in special cases...

Oh well I don't really care, people can complain but anyway I find it rather hard/risky to try and Powershield when I could just take the skies and do some SHADing, it's not the same as PSing Zero Suit's attacks... it feels so automatic PSing her attacks in her unarmored form... but I digress. Perhaps I could just fight a lv 9 computer and practice my PSing there.

I also find it impossible to gimp Samus, but then again maybe her offstage game is just that good.

 

[ithrowthings]

I freakin HATE fighting a good yoshi. Every time I try for a footstool gimp it feels like yoshi is mocking me by just not falling for it whatsoever. Plus if you fight a good Yoshi on somethin like FD prepare to get pivot grabbed midair approach and CG'd to 50... freakin hate good yoshis...

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Hw about I put this way. you can still lsot any match ups no matter what the numbers say. For example in SF4 Zngief vs. Furete Gief wins. Even though it states has the upper hand the furete player can bait all of his grabs with H.dash and RSf to punish him for any whiff throws. So even though sonic vs. Mk is 80-20 Mk wins. There is still a chance to pull of a victory. So the numbers really don't matter. Just watch your back, or you might lose to Cf or Yoshi.

Edit: Also ,no SF4 allowed. It was just an example.

Edit 2: kinzer: If you ever played Sagat vs. furete before, then that how fighting powersuit samus feel. Always on the defenseive hard to start a offense.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

Hw about I put this way. you can still lsot any match ups no matter what the numbers say. For example in SF4 Zngief vs. Furete Gief wins. Even though it states has the upper hand the furete player can bait all of his grabs with H.dash and RSf to punish him for any whiff throws. So even though sonic vs. Mk is 80-20 Mk wins. There is still a chance to pull of a victory. So the numbers really don't matter. Just watch your back, or you might lose to Cf or Yoshi.

Edit: Also ,no SF4 allowed. It was just an example.

Edit 2: kinzer: If you ever played Sagat vs. furete before, then that how fighting powersuit samus feel. Always on the defenseive hard to start a offense.

Um..what ^ said..I think. XD

But it's nowhere near as bad for us as 80-20 KASR. lol

Also I find Yoshi to be a pain with his stupid tongue grab game and annoying second jump. I could see it being even or even a minor disadvantage for Sonic. I don't see DarkLeviathan89 around anymore but he had a good Yoshi. Those two things especially and bair made that fight a *****.

 

[Chis]

So 55:45 or 50:50?
:/

 

[da K.I.D.]

I freakin HATE fighting a good yoshi. Every time I try for a footstool gimp it feels like yoshi is mocking me by just not falling for it whatsoever. Plus if you fight a good Yoshi on somethin like FD prepare to get pivot grabbed midair approach and CG'd to 50... freakin hate good yoshis...

Thats because they ARE mocking you, Yoshi doesnt get gimped, and they ESPECIALLY dont get facejumped. trying to FSJ yoshi is just asking to get up aired.

Hw about I put this way. you can still lsot any match ups no matter what the numbers say. For example in SF4 Zngief vs. Furete Gief wins. Even though it states has the upper hand the furete player can bait all of his grabs with H.dash and RSf to punish him for any whiff throws. So even though sonic vs. Mk is 80-20 Mk wins. There is still a chance to pull of a victory. So the numbers really don't matter. Just watch your back, or you might lose to Cf or Yoshi.

Edit: Also ,no SF4 allowed. It was just an example.

Edit 2: kinzer: If you ever played Sagat vs. furete before, then that how fighting powersuit samus feel. Always on the defenseive hard to start a offense.

1. matchups in Brawl arent the same as matchups in SF
2. you play el fuerte? ewwwwww...

 

[EdreesesPieces]

**** you guys have an amazing matchup thread..

 

[ShadowLink84]

**** you guys have an amazing matchup thread..

Its a pity we also have some of the worst threads too >_<
Concerning Samus and her projectiles, they aren't an issue directly. its more on having to deal with them because Samus has strong stage control once it has been established.

The missiles and bombs work well in slowing Sonic down and reducing what we can punish.

I find it tough for Samus to establish that stage control in front of Sonics speed.

As for killing, I think Sonic may have an easier time, since I believe her kill moves are weaker (not too sure) and also because Samus seems to require sage control before she can use her kill moves productively. While Sonic does not have such an important requirement.

While he does have to set up kills, he doesn't need to establish the type of stage control Samus has.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Thats because they ARE mocking you, Yoshi doesnt get gimped, and they ESPECIALLY dont get facejumped. trying to FSJ yoshi is just asking to get up aired.

1. matchups in Brawl arent the same as matchups in SF
2. you play el fuerte? ewwwwww...

1. I was just using a example man.

2. What's wrong with fuerte man? that my main right there. If you got a 360/PS3 hit me up. I don't mind owning you with Dan, fuerte, and silm.

Back on topic.

Since I was gone. Can anyone explain to me why Pit vs. Sonic is even?

 

[Kinzer]

It's either even or in Pit's favor.

It's not enough to cause any noticeable skew, but there are other characters I would much rather fight before Pit.

You want a detailed version of why it's a moreorless even matchup?

Also Edreese is awesome.

 

[ViCTORiOUSViC]

the Sonic vs Pit matchup does not seem even..just in overall

 

[Chis]

Imma changing Yoshi to even then.... :/

Next:
Snake?




SNAKE?!







No I won't do it....

 

[Kinzer]

I could've sworn I had a case of Deja'vu right now.

Anyway if I haven't already said it ViCTOR, Pit is even or slightly in his favor, it's not like it's anything detrimiental.

Of course I really hope I don't have to deal with Pit, but if I must I'm pretty sure just playing him like Olimar will be alright.

 

[da K.I.D.]

how in bloody hell does Pit beat sonic?

GTFOOM matchup thread with that nonsense.

also, snake beats sonic pretty hard, tilts are faster and stronger than anything we have.

But sonic speed is unique in this matchup cause he is one of the few, if not, the only character that can bait snakes tilts, and be quick enoguh to pnuish them.

Snake is also pretty bad in the air and this allows many characters to rack good amounts of damage on him. but he can counteract this with nade counters.

overall id say either 60-40 snake if both players are equal, and 65-35 if the snake actually knows the matchup

 

[Kinzer]

Pit outclasses Sonic in annoying.

Snake is okay, if you know the matchup, it's just too badt he Snake player only needs to hold down the A button to limit a lot of your options, and that blasted Utilt. DTilts are still broken, and as KID said you best get him in the air and juggle him there if you can(more liek you must).

Not much has changed, but I do suppose we've gotten smarter about being stupid with our approaches, and we all realise that you're going to have to bait in order to get what you want. Nothing out of the ordinary. I like Yoshi's isle, that Utilt won't kill so confined early, and his other pawnches/kyicks are usually too decayed to be of any use.

 

[ROOOOY!]

If I have to explain why Pit v Sonic is even for the 5th **** time on this site I will jab forks into my eyes and castrate you all with my teeth.

Anyway. Snakes who know what they're doing are really hard :<

Generally, fighting him amounts to getting him offstage or just keeping him juggled.

I find that I fare badly against him if I sit back and let him control the stage. If he's got grenades and C4 on one side and hitboxes that cover half the stage on the other, it's like being caught between a brick **** house and my buns of steel, generally uncomfortable.

Using grenades against him is the way to go, as is pressuring him onto explosives. This match is all about pressure, except a campy safe 'wait for an opening' pressure like you'd use against an Olimar or something and not running headlong into his tilts with a look of ******** glee on your face.

It's obviously Sonic's disadvantage. I wouldn't call it any worse than 40:60 though.

 

[_clinton]

It's obviously Sonic's disadvantage. I wouldn't call it any worse than 40:60 though.

I would...Snake never wants to ****ing die with me ^_^

 

[JayBee]

From what I understand on this matchup, these are the things sonics can do in this matchup.

1: don't get grabbed. actually, this isn't hard for sonic, but one grab into dthrow completely shuts down sonics momentum and is put into a guessing game. his forward and back throws set up mortar slide setups as well, and if you are off stage, he's going to try for a grab setup or f tilt.

2: grenades are not the key for snake against sonic under most circumstances. sonics's generally small hitboxes help in this matchup against grenade counters, which happen when a snake holds a grenade as you attack, in hopes you will blow it up and not only reset advantage or flow, but because snake is a tank, and you are not, its fine as long because one uptilt at 100% ends you usually. you can abuse spins and jump cancel out of the attack before you come in contact with the grenade. also because of sonic's glide toss, he can utilize them just as well as snake and can work on setups so long as the sonic isn't scared of them blowing up. back throw negates the threat of grenade counters completely AND sets up snake for juggling/edgegaurding.

3: up throw is key, because its you best throw damage wise, and revels snakes weakness from below him, his most common defence is airdodge, or di away for bair, both extremely punishable by sonic. upair ***** characters with slow dairs, and since its disjointed, most of thte time you will win and juggle him. juggle , bait the airdodge, with an empty jump, then upair again. this also helps your tilt game beacuse you can bait and punish him into tilts that lead into more juggling.

4: snakes CQC is very good. Ftilt if both hits connect leaves him open to grabs and IDA. but most good snakes mix the first hit of ftilt and jabs, to trick you, and eventually go for grabs.

just get the dude in the air, you have the advantage. patience will help in this match when you are fishing for juggles. i've used YI:B with ISDR to negate the explosives even furthur, and i like stages that give me lots of room to run so i can choose when to attack, since snake cant really chase me. you will lose if you run into ftilts often. if i need to i will continuously move around so that he cant' pin me with nades as well, and quick sudden movements like foxtrots bait tilts and jabs.even though you can run all over him and negate those grenades to an extent, his attacks are too strong and he'll even it up easily. i honestly think its more of an even matchup though.

 

[4nace]

Yea, Kojin's post is pretty dead on. If the Sonic can stay below Snake, he will surely win.

But another thing that Sonic has on Snake is his ability to gimp his recovery. Spinshot to forward air is a pretty sound technique if the Snake tries to recover up high (as most good ones will). Also, for the Snake that is new or playing cocky, Sonic's speed is incredible. Just stand in the middle of the level and if he tries to recover from under the edge, dash over and grab him for the easy kill.

Snake is not an easy match. Try not to roll around him unless you absolutely have to, and cancel alot because it will mess up his grenade game when he tries to shield/spot-dodge your fake approaches. Hey, if you can start getting him to hit his own explosives then you'll be set.

My favorite part of the Snake match-up is that Spring Combo is very do-able vs Snake, and other than Rob, i find it the easiest to pull off. Snakes often air-dodge before landing when you are approaching, giving you the opportunity to drop down a spring and up air. Be careful though because his forward air can kill you up there if he realizes what is happening.

This video really helped me understand the match-up more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fu3ZhkR0lA

Snake's Jabs and tilts own and his ability to camp Sonic is pretty good, I would say its
60:40 Snake.

 

[Tenki]

but... spinshot doesn't reach very high, and kills your double jump?

but I don't use spinshot to gimp, ever, so I can't comment on this usage.

also F-air doesn't knock him out of cypher, but N-air/B-air will.

 

[4nace]

but... spinshot doesn't reach very high, and kills your double jump?

but I don't use spinshot to gimp, ever, so I can't comment on this usage.

also F-air doesn't knock him out of cypher, but N-air/B-air will.

Yea, forward air isnt really for knocking him out of his cypher, its just to rack up damage. Personally, I prefer the iSDJ and then double jump to up air, but recently, i've seen that the speed and distance that a spin shot can cover is undisputable, so its definitely worth it to try to throw it in. But like you said, forward air doesnt knock him off his cypher, so a spring to up air following the spin shot is a good choice.

Another cool trick that works against Snake is to jump out then side-b towards the level then jump cancel to back air while he is trying to cypher past you =).

I guess the point I am trying to make is that Sonic has many options against Snake when he cyphers, many more than most characters =)

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Snake's pretty much forced to air dodge in the air. Since his best bet is bair, stay in front of him. Bait and punish? D= I'm only played a few snakes soooo... this might not be totally legit. >_>

3: up throw is key, because its you best throw damage wise, and revels snakes weakness from below him, his most common defence is airdodge, or di away for bair, both extremely punishable by sonic. upair ***** characters with slow dairs, and since its disjointed, most of thte time you will win and juggle him. juggle , bait the airdodge, with an empty jump, then upair again. this also helps your tilt game beacuse you can bait and punish him into tilts that lead into more juggling.
.

pfft >_> and I thought i was trippin'

 

[Tenki]

don't forget he can B-air and hit you forward >__>;

 

[JayBee]

ive used spinshot to mix up my looks when im edgegaurding in the past. its sudden, and you can be in thier face before they realize it. but as time went on, i use side b over that instead. even as a mindgame, use it very little.

yeah, sometimes im caught offgaurd too. the hitbox lasts a long time too.

 

[da K.I.D.]

personally I say, 65-35 on the premise that

1. snake is kind of a broke character. homeboy is way OP
2. as a good character, i see him as way harder than somebody like luigi, who is a legit 60-40.

 

[_clinton]

Snake's stats
1. He can screw with your movement in some ways on the ground or the air if given a chance due to how many tools he happens to have at his use...
2. What move of his won't kill again at some % at least besides Dthrow?
3. Has the 2nd best resistance to vertical knock back overall (1st is D3) and is more than ok horizontally as well (3rd best)
4. His DACUS makes sure he isn't lacking in at least ground movement...and you still want to be careful of him in the air at least...because all 5 of his air attacks can kill
5. His throws aren't bad overall...oh and on his grab (like for example his pivot) it isn't lacking in range...although the fastest it will come out on is frame 8 (9 for the pivot and dash)
6. Have I brought up how he isn't lacking at all in range as far as his attacks go?
7. I'm fairly certain that the whole grab him when recovering to gimp him as long as you don't add any % on him with a pummel while holding him only works if he can't get a C4 off in time after it...
8. Speed wise his moves really aren't that slow...his jab and Dair both are out on frame 3, Ftilt is 4, the dash attack is on 5, U and Dtilt are on 6, Bair is on 7...Nair, and Uair are on 10...I guess everything else is on the slow side...and I guess his airs still might be slow (his jump off the ground is on frame 11)

 

[Kinzer]

How many times have we already gone over the Luigi matchup? We should probably go over why he's stupid slow in the air with bad traction on the ground (and still not much faster, at least not if Luigi doesn't want to do a dash-attack out of a run which his is piss suck) and the matchup is not in his favor if you can learn to camp him with Bairs and get over his one way Fireballs. That's the same logic you guys must've used just when we were doing the matchup for Mario and given him a 5 point advantage when really a lot of things have changed. Feel free to tell me otherwise

As for Fair not hitting Snake out... it might be due to how decayed it usually is, but IIRC you only need to do an attack that does 8% damage to knock him out of his cypher, which usually the last hit of Fair takes care of.

 

[Tenki]

Who cares if Luigi moves slow in the air? He's floaty enough to throw 3 nearly lagless, disjointed aerials from a SH that destroy almost all of Sonic's moves (spring included), and apparently can kill you OoS if he shields a rising F-air, among other things.

and Kinzer, the single hit has to deal more than the threshold damage for Cypher. F-air's is 4 AFAIK.

 

[Kinzer]

Isn't there some problem if Weegee is approaching YOU with aerials and not forcing you to come to him with Fireballs? I would also think that by the 2nd aerial you would at least be able to do a FTilt/Utilt/shieldgrab/Fair OoS (I love having TJ on).

Fireballs still suck but eventually if you don't do something you'll run out of room and have to do something by that point. So yeah... do work.

 

[_clinton]

Who cares if Luigi moves slow in the air? He's floaty enough to throw 3 nearly lagless, disjointed aerials from a SH that destroy almost all of Sonic's moves (spring included), and apparently can kill you OoS if he shields a rising F-air, among other things.

and Kinzer, the single hit has to deal more than the threshold damage for Cypher. F-air's is 4 AFAIK.

Weegee is ****ing scary...but whatever

I think with Snake's cypher the damage needed to knock him out of it is it at least lower than what you have to do to Yoshi's 2nd jump or Wario's bike at least...but I'm not too sure...

 

[Tenki]

Isn't there some problem if Weegee is approaching YOU with aerials and not forcing you to come to him with Fireballs? I would also think that by the 2nd aerial you would at least be able to do a FTilt/Utilt/shieldgrab/Fair OoS (I love having TJ on).

eh, I meant Luigi playing defensively. He'll destroy your moves lol.

from what I've seen, the aerials he'll open/bait/test with is usually F-air, then follow up with other things after that, but D-air and N-air work in other situations.

 

[JayBee]

i ****ing hate luigi.

 

[Camalange]

Luigi's okay.

There's worse, he's more annoying if anything >_>

 

[aeghrur]

Weegee is ****ing scary...but whatever

I think with Snake's cypher the damage needed to knock him out of it is it at least lower than what you have to do to Yoshi's 2nd jump or Wario's bike at least...but I'm not too sure...

Yoshi's 2nd jump is based on knockback.
I forgot about Wario's bike.
I totally forgot snake's heavy armor % on the up-B. I thought it was around like 11% lol.
Then I realized, OH, BAIR DOESN'T DO THAT MUCH, hahaha.