Something bothering you?

[Dre89]

The reason why it seems so wrong to argue against it, is to do so, you're going against Enlightenment Period, which is what has influenced modern conceptions of morality.

There are schools of thought from previous eras that can be used to argue against it.

That's why most people are disgusted when someone argues against homosexuality, because social contract theory had become so normalised in modernity, that they have trouble accepting the plausabiliy of anything that conflicts with it.

But then on the other side, you have anti gays who can't see beyond the way theyve been brought up, or will create premises to supplement theological conclusions they already held.

Not to mention that both sides tend to apply the appeal to emotion fallacy.

 

[Pluvia]

Right then make a valid argument.

 

[MASAHIROx]

my ****ing roommate keeps pegging me in the forehead with a spaceball ****ing *****

 

[Merkuri]

my ****ing roommate keeps pegging me in the forehead with a spaceball ****ing *****

Are you in college if so report him. Is there anyway you can avoid living with this guy? Calling the police and claiming assault can't hurt either.

 

[ranmaru]

my ****ing roommate keeps pegging me in the forehead with a spaceball ****ing *****

Peg him back with your fist. : ]

 

[Dre89]

Right then make a valid argument.

I'm not here to start a debate. I was just expressing that I am bothered by the intolerance on both sides; the intolerance shown by the gay bashers, and that shown by the people not open to a reasonable anti homosexuality argument.

But we've moved on now to the next problem, the guy with the roommate.

 

[MASAHIROx]

calm down big boy

just ignore them. Making a fuss about haters is a waste of time. If someone is against who you are than **** em. Sometimes gays hit on me. I take it as a compliment. A anti gay usually has had some type of 'experience' anyways. Just be natural.

 

[Pluvia]

Suspiciously no valid argument was presented.

I'm not going to bother pretending I'm surprised.

 

[Pikaville]

The thing about being gay is that there are people out there who see it on such a primitive level.

Fair enough you might not want some ludicrously flamboyant bear flaunting his stuff all up in your face, but it's just how some gays are.It's what they want to be, it's how they feel, it can't be changed and most important of all, it makes them happy.

How can you ask someone to ignore something as powerful as sexual attraction? Even if it is "unnatural" so to speak.

My main problem is that if I do come out, I know for a fact, that some things aren't going to be the same.It just scares the crap out of me thinking that my friends/family will possibly look down on me or subtly change around me.

It just drives me crazy sometimes.

It's like "DUDE! I've been this way for years unbeknownst to you,why now that I like guys has anything really changed?"

Unless you have felt this weight, it's hard to understand man.

 

[Merkuri]

Suspiciously no valid argument was presented.

I'm not going to bother pretending I'm surprised.

I'm not interested in starting a debate with you or anyone about the whether or not homosexuality is right or wrong.

It's also difficult to create a blank generalized statement for a life style being wrong, which I guess it's my fault for failing to clarify; as I was more referring to homosexual related arguments rather than homosexuality itself. If you're just asking me to put fourth an example of such an argument that favorite is probably....

''Homosexual should be excluded from comic books as it encourages children to engage in homosexual activity''. This example may seem arbitrary but of course there are a lot more examples such as homosexuality in marriage, and homosexuality in schools, etc. My point was when people make valid arguments against homosexuality the people often make stupid rebuttals and the masses back them despite their idiocy simply because our society is anti-prejudicial.

Also you're gay aren't you?

@Megatron: They disapprove with your life style, there is nothing wrong with that. It's analogous to being a pedophile, if they were to find out someone they knew was a pedophile they'd look down on them despite the fact that the said person has been that way for years. You can't blame them for this.

 

[Pluvia]

Nor the comic book or pedophile argument is valid because both are easily countered.

Homosexuality in (comic books/school/anything else) doesn't "encourage homosexual activity". That's like saying people can be turned gay by seeing gay people, which doesn't happen, or that being gay is a choice, which it's not.

And the pedophile argument completely fails. Someone wanting to have sex with kids is not the same as someone wanting to have sex with adults.

 

[Merkuri]

Nor the comic book or pedophile argument is valid because both are easily countered..


Homosexuality in (comic books/school/anything else) doesn't "encourage homosexual activity". That's like saying people can be turned gay by seeing gay people, which doesn't happen, or that being gay is a choice, which it's not.

What? You realize that these comic books are aimed at children as young as 10. For you to say they aren't extremely impressionable is ********. It was estimated that over 1,000,000 kids dressed up as Batman last Halloween.

And the pedophile argument completely fails. Someone wanting to have sex with kids is not the same as someone wanting to have sex with adults.

And how are they different? You realize you haven't provided an argument? My point is that they are both sexual deviance which these people see as wrong, therefore you cannot blame them for treating you differently for it.

And again, you're gay right?

 

[1048576]

There's no rational basis for discriminating against homosexuals. See: Prop 8 ruling. You can bet the proponents were trying really hard to find something.

Treating gays like 2nd class citizens has always bothered me. Objectively, there's pros and cons to both gay and straight.

Natural Law as a moral system also bothers me. It's like whatever you want can be natural, y'know, cause humans aren't supernatural, so your morals are arbitrary.

 

[Pluvia]

So, according to your logic, kids can have their sexual orientation affected by what they see in the media.

So right lets say that's true, how much films have heterosexual relationships in them? Lets say kids films here, we'll ignore James Bond and things like that. Look at the mainstream big kids films of this year, Toy Story 3, Shrek 4, Harry Potter 7, every single one of them have heterosexual relationships in them. Think of all the classic Disney films (mostly because I don't know any new ones, High School Musical maybe?), how much of them have heterosexual relationships in them?

All of these films are "encouraging" heterosexual activity and none of them are encouraging homosexual activity, so where do they fit into this equation? How do you explain gay kids that grew up surrounded by all this heterosexual activity? Shouldn't they be straight seeing as though they're easily impressionable?

Also I don't believe you think that having sex with a consenting adult is the same as having sex with a kid.

 

[Dre89]

See, this I'd exactly what I'm talking about. The person who said "there's no argument for the other side" then provoked a debate was a pro homosexual. Behaviour like that makes the other pro homosexuals look narrow minded.

This isn't a place for debate, if you want to do that, go to the Debate Hall.

Pluvia, I didn't provide an argument for a particular side, because I didn't come here to debate, I came here to express frustration at instances of intolerance on both sides, and to see what people thought of it.

I also didn't provide an argument for a particular side because I respect this thread enough not to derail it.

Numbers, dont start bringing that stuff up here, leave it for the Devate Hall. And if you're going to support moral relativism, you're going to have to justify it. I don't know why moral relativists and materialists feel they don't need to justify their position.

The posts here are exactly what I was bothered about. As soon as people get a hint that someone disagrees with homosexuality, people start saying the anti position has no valid argument, and try to start provoking debate. It's just doing the image of the pro side a disservice frankly.


Now let's be mature and move on to the next person's issue.

 

[1048576]

"I'll have my say and then insist we move on."

Okay sure

I just said arbitrary morals are a Bad Thing(tm)

Tolerance doesn't supercede toleration of intolerance. Like, I should tolerate Jews. I shouldn't tolerate Nazis.

 

[ranmaru]

And again, you're gay right?

You probably shouldn't keep asking the same question. :/

 

[DTP]

My main problem is that if I do come out, I know for a fact, that some things aren't going to be the same.It just scares the crap out of me thinking that my friends/family will possibly look down on me or subtly change around me.

Oh my god! It's the inevitable subtle changes that drive me nuts and intimidate the **** out of me!

I've only come out to people I can trust mostly because that reason

 

[RATED]

pssh people debating about gay stuff.

I am not gay, but I have gay friends, when I knew nothing changed about the friendship , even more we became more friends bcuz I knew more about my friends.

srsly gtfo of the thread with the gay discution or any other discution. I came hear to know others problems not to read some debate, I hate the debate boards.

 

[Merkuri]

^ Yeah I actually pointed out that I wasn't interested in a debate, but Pluvia goaded me and I couldn't resist.

Can we get back to the main topic and start *****ing about our lives again.

 

[Pluvia]

Shoulda just ignored me if you didn't want a debate. It's not hard.

 

[Reizilla]

My life sucks. I haven't eaten Denny's or Thai food in months.

/dying

Discuss my problem and quit talking about controversial ****.

 

[Pikaville]

Denny's you can live without.

Thai food however is too good to let go.

Also the paedophile=gay thing is an incredibly dodgy comparison.They aren't even close to being the same thing.

 

[Reizilla]

But Denny's has the best vegan burger around T.T And how am I supposed to be a weeaboo if I can't eat my Thai food?

 

[Merkuri]

Denny's you can live without.

Thai food however is too good to let go.

Also the paedophile=gay thing is an incredibly dodgy comparison.They aren't even close to being the same thing.

I guess we're all not ready to let it go yet eh?

The gay/Pedophile example in this context was actually a perfect comparison. We were talking about alienation and prejudice and regardless of laws or your moral beliefs those two practices are both sexual deviances from the norm of society and therefore they were great examples. If a gay person is prejudice towards pedophiles then he shouldn't surprised or even offended if people are prejudice towards him.

 

[TigerWoods]

This thread is full of so much fail.

I also am full of fail though... I totally took a calculous test unprepared :D

 

[jugfingers]

a girl stole my heart and won't give it back.

im afraid.

***.

 

[Pikaville]

I guess we're all not ready to let it go yet eh?

The gay/Pedophile example in this context was actually a perfect comparison. We were talking about alienation and prejudice and regardless of laws or your moral beliefs those two practices are both sexual deviances from the norm of society and therefore they were great examples. If a gay person is prejudice towards pedophiles then he shouldn't surprised or even offended if people are prejudice towards him.

It's not illegal to be gay whereas paedophilia is.That is the difference maker here.Yes being gay is not the norm, but it doesn't break any REAL moral codes.

Obviously people are gonna look down on someone who is breaking the law.

The law was created to protect innocent children from experiencing something potentially life ruining.

It's the same reason beastiality is outlawed, the animals don't understand/can't really do anything to stop
it happening.

I can completely see where your coming from here though,even if I don't agree with it.

 

[Pluvia]

Yo Aidan I'm still here for like half an hour or so more.

Anyway sex with kids or animals is **** whereas gay sex isn't as it's consent between two adults. Either he lives in a country with no age of consent laws and/or doesn't know all the bad psychological stuff that happens kids and/or doesn't understand the meaning of "taking advantage" and/or really doesn't understand the difference between a 30 year old woman and a 8 year old girl or, and this is probably the most likely one, he doesn't really believe that and he's just trolling you.

It's most likely the trolling one Aidan seeing as though his argument runs solely on the fact that he ignores the words "consent between two adults". Notice how he's failed to counter that. All he's said is "considered deviance" which also translates to "I don't like it and they're both sexual so therefore the same". The logic is that if a sexual act differents from a social norm then it's on the same level as paedophilia, which is like saying "I don't like dogs and I don't like murderers therefore they're the same".

And that, especially the "consent between two adults" part, is why the paedophilia argument is not a valid comparison as it's countered so easily by those 4 words.

Right and now I'm off on holiday be back on the 19th.

 

[DTP]

My life sucks. I haven't eaten Denny's or Thai food in months.

/dying

Discuss my problem and quit talking about controversial ****.

Oh man, Thai food is AMAZING! Gotta love when you're in the country. I miss it D:

Although I DID buy a Thai cookbook while I was there, but it still wouldn't be the same cuz I suck at cooking :/

 

[Merkuri]

It's not illegal to be gay whereas paedophilia is.That is the difference maker here.Yes being gay is not the norm, but it doesn't break any REAL moral codes.

Obviously people are gonna look down on someone who is breaking the law.

The law was created to protect innocent children from experiencing something potentially life ruining.

It's the same reason beastiality is outlawed, the animals don't understand/can't really do anything to stop
it happening.

I can completely see where your coming from here though,even if I don't agree with it.

You see this is the dumb arguments against anti-homosexual arguments I was referring to before.

Dude read my posts here. We're not talking about what is what is not wrong here. Nor are we talking about what should be legalized and what should not be legalized. This annoys e because you're using a generalized blanket pro-homosexual argument to counter a very specific point. And I'm pretty sure you do this intentionally because you fail to come up with substantial argument.

I'll simplify this again for you. Homosexuality and Pedophilia are both sexual deviances, they contradict the traditional norms and values of society; the fact that pedophilia is illegal is irrelevant. Even if it were legalized tomorrow my argument would not change. They are both deviances, and therefore they are acts which many people see as wrong(we're talking about culture here, not legality). The same way that people see pedophilia as being wrong, is the same way many people see homosexuality to be wrong. And no one should be blamed for being prejudicial against these deviants

@Puvial: No offense bro but I ignored you because I think you're dumb. That argument you made about the heterosexual media biasedly influencing children away from homosexuality was one of the most ******** arguments I've never heard. I also find it annoying that you won't openly admit that you're gay on these boards.

 

[PolarBear]

A pretty long and personal read. If anybody has some advice or a similar situation to share, let me know.

Spoiler

My ex girlfriend, who was probably the only person I ever romantically loved, was so innocent and naive back in high school when we went out. After we broke up we became very close friends. We still told each other very deep stuff on the phone that we would never tell anybody else. Then when college started, she stayed home and I went to another state. I made new friends that became like family and she did the same at her school. During this time we still talked for a little but she became increasingly more disinterested in talking to me. Soon it became a very occasional thing where we would ever hang out, usually around other friends, or talk to each other online.

I didn't do very well my first year of school so now I'm going to school at home, but a different college than her. Now I feel like I've lost touch with everybody I knew except for maybe 3 close friends. The time I was away from my old friends at high school I've lost touch with, and the friends I made at my old school are distant and I feel like they'll soon forget about me. The most crushing thing though is that my ex is very into partying now and I see pictures of her and hear stories of her getting really drunk and she has a habit of passing out, twice she went to the hospital because her drinks were spiked, and she's the complete opposite of who she used to be. She's still very sweet and smart, but she's into stuff she said she'd never do.

My problem is that I feel like my whole existence is empty. I have college debts to pay, a year wasted of education, very few friends that I barely get to see, my mom lost a lot of trust in me, and no girlfriend. Maybe I still like my ex and seeing her the way she is hurts me. I don't think she kisses guys at parties but still seeing her in this lifestyle makes me feel a lone. I used to be into partying but now it seems like I can't get any connects to go to any, even though the kids I used to be close with are partying all the time and never taking me a long even when I say I'm interested. I'm starting to drink by myself partly out of boredom and partly out of the attempt to feel numb because I feel depressed in the state I'm in. I feel like nobody appreciates me and a deep sense of isolation from the rest of the world. Anybody ever been in the same situation and can help?

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Post edited out at personal request.

 

[1048576]

I guess we're all not ready to let it go yet eh?

The gay/Pedophile example in this context was actually a perfect comparison. We were talking about alienation and prejudice and regardless of laws or your moral beliefs those two practices are both sexual deviances from the norm of society and therefore they were great examples. If a gay person is prejudice towards pedophiles then he shouldn't surprised or even offended if people are prejudice towards him.

It really bothers me, and not just this isolated incident, but that so many people are so stupid that they can't see the very basic, obvious flaws in their arguments. Actually, it's not that people are stupid. That's kind of a relative thing. It's that there's such a large variation of intelligences across the human spectrum, and the ******* are treated with the same dignity and respect, their ideas given equal time and treatment, as the geniuses. Furthermore, they seem to procreate at a higher rate. As a society, shouldn't we value intelligence? Studies show that more intelligence leads to less crime and less poverty. Aren't those things we like?

Like, I know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I failed and dropped several college classes, and I'm sure I hold several conflicting views if you take it back up the chain far enough. But for like 90% of the opinions I read that I disagree with, I can point out within half a second the flaw in their argument. Why can't the renderer of the opinion also see this flaw in the entire time they've held this view? I'm not smart. They must be stupid.

Edit: since nobody seems to have cared enough to spell it out for you: CONSENT. Kids aren't mature enough to give it. They haven't fully developed brain, etc... If there was a 40-year-old with a child's body, who cares if he/she has sex.

And why are you pressing Pluvia? Don't you have a nagging straight bias?

Edit2: To Polarbear: Read The Catcher in the Rye by JR Holden. My English isn't well enough equipped to offer you advice here. Hers is.

 

[Reizilla]

Prostitution is also done with consent. Doesn't make it any less of a deviance from society's norms.

This isn't the debate thread. Take this somewhere else. It's seriously ****ing annoying reading through all of your *****ing at each other.

 

[Merkuri]

Edit: since nobody seems to have cared enough to spell it out for you: CONSENT. Kids aren't mature enough to give it. They haven't fully developed brain, etc... If there was a 40-year-old with a child's body, who cares if he/she has sex.

And why are you pressing Pluvia? Don't you have a nagging straight bias?

Edit2: To Polarbear: Read The Catcher in the Rye by JR Holden. My English isn't well enough equipped to offer you advice here. Hers is.

OMG, I really have to spell out the idiocy every single time. Geesh, I guess it's too much to ask people to come to obvious conclusions if I don't spell things out. I'm really disappointed with the people I've been arguing with so far.

You've made the same argument that Pluvia and Megatron have made, despite me pointing out why your argument doesn't apply here.

I can't say this without sounding condescending but try to follow what I'm saying, actually read it and if at any point you fail to understand the steps I take at getting from one point to another then go back and read my post some more

CONSENT doesn't apply here. THE LAW does not apply here. The argument I'm making isn't even rooted in what is morally right or wrong, it is rooted in American culture. Homosexuality is a sexual deviancy, pedophilia iis a sexual deviancy, the fact that pedophilia is a more extreme case and is illegal is irrelevant. What matters is that they both go against the norms and values of American culture, with that said and with that in mind, people shun pedophiles because they are sexual deviances, if the age of consent didn't exist tomorrow people would still shun pedophiles, not so much because it is illegal but because it goes against the norms and values of society. Homosexuality in this context does the exact same thing, so if pedophiles are shun then it's only normal for homosexuals to be shunned as well.

Edit: @Shun Goku Satsu: I'm sorry we started off on the wrong. Foot. You seem to be the only one who understands this very simple concept. Prostitution is a great example, another great example is bestiality; which contrary to what Pluvia and some others think is actually legal in a lot of American states.

 

[1048576]

So whats the rational basis for hating sexual deviances again? It's okay because its okay?
Lots of things happen/exist that shouldn't.

Having sex with someone over 6 feet tall is a sexual deviancy. Yet we don't hate that. Why don't you try to point out the relevant difference.

Also, why can't you be me and make these arguments for yourself. Again, this is a half-second of thinking here.

 

[Merkuri]

So whats the rational basis for hating gays again? It's okay because its okay?
Lots of things happen/exist that shouldn't.

Having sex with someone over 6 feet tall is a sexual deviancy. Yet we don't hate that. Why don't you try to point out the relevant difference.

I never said it was a rational basis, I was saying it's understandable and in some cases should actually be expected.

I'm not sure where that second paragraph came from. Sex with people over 6 feet tall is not a sexual deviancy. I'm over 6 feet tall, there would be no deviancy in having sex with me.

 

[sammy p]

soooo.... im going to start complaining about my life
my cross counrty team sucks....
were not bad, but no one can get along with eachother for the life of us!
we had this new kid join the start of the season, and ever since, hes been harrassed and bullied.
this actually makes me look bad on 2 accounts.
1. im actually friends with all of the harrassers, and it makes me look bad in front of the new kid for being grouped with them(hes really not that bad of a guy... a little different, but whatever)
2. it also makes me look bad in front of my friends. they EXPECT me to join in on the name calling and hasing, and its something i refuse to do.
soooo... not quite sure what to do at this moment. i dont expect to give way to either parties, but its just..... really annoying and frusterating i guess lol

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Hey PolarBear. I'm graduating this year from Rutgers University in New Brunswick. I'm fairly familiar with schools around the tri-state area, given that I visited nearly all of them and ended up choosing Rutgers anyway (couldn't afford any of the nice schools I got into ). I know college can get tough and merciless sometimes to the extent that it puts a cruel spin to "soul searching" and "self-discovery." More like "soul crushing" and "esteem busting." I would love to talk about academics as I've been in a tough spot before.