Event - MLG Anaheim 2014 So now that we know MLG hosts ridiculous smash tournaments...

[Judo777]

No i think the point is that with more stages there is a less likely chance that either character will greatly excel over another on the starter.

More importantly there is less a gap in advantage between who goes first and second with MLG's 9 stage starter list.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This make it sound as if diddy's are overcentralizing the metagame...which is clearly not the case, because diddy only strives on one of these stages.

I've said this yet everyone just ignores this point.

 

[ShadowLink84]

This make it sound as if diddy's are overcentralizing the metagame...which is clearly not the case, because diddy only strives on one of these stages.

No it does not, it is something you are perceiving.
He is stating that Diddy should not be starting off on a stage that would typically be his counterpick.
Seriously, why is it all right for Diddy to get one of his stages, but unfair for MK?
I call shenanigans.

The stage list that T-block and OS speak of would make it so that it would be the fairest choice.
The stage in which neither character excels.

A 5 stage list gives Diddy, IC's and Falco an advantage that they typically should not be having first round.

 

[ADHD]

No it does not, it is something you are perceiving.
He is stating that Diddy should not be starting off on a stage that would typically be his counterpick.
Seriously, why is it all right for Diddy to get one of his stages, but unfair for MK?
I call shenanigans.

MAYBE BECAUSE MK IS GAY AS HELL ON DELFINO ERR?

Neutrals need a hug after this discussion <3

A 5 stage list gives Diddy, IC's and Falco an advantage that they typically should not be having first round.[/[\QUOTE]

No they don't. You're debating just for the sake of talking.

 

[ShadowLink84]

MAYBE BECAUSE MK IS GAY AS HELL ON DELFINO ERR?

Define gay?
Frankly, I find the fact you have a character who, when hitting you with a banana peel, causes you to trip.
THAT, in my eyes would be considered gay.

Know what else is gay? Giving a character a counterpick stage as a starter stage, just because of the dislike towards MK.

Frankly, I am at the point where you might as well ban the friggin bat if everyone's reason is going to be. MK MK MK!

Seriously, better reasons are needed to justify giving YOUR character their better stages as opposed to sticking them on a stage they don't do as well on.

Neutrals need a hug after this discussion <3

Define neutral.

No they don't. You're debating just for the sake of talking.

Yes, because Diddy does wonderfully on Lylat Cruise.

 

[ADHD]

Define gay?
Frankly, I find the fact you have a character who, when hitting you with a banana peel, causes you to trip.
THAT, in my eyes would be considered gay.

Know what else is gay? Giving a character a counterpick stage as a starter stage, just because of the dislike towards MK.

You crazy yo. It is not biased against metaknight, in fact I'm stating your desires are probably biased towards metaknight. There is such a thing as diddy kong, ics, or falco on battlefield (which they really aren't that great on, they're okay there) and a shark happy metaknight up airing under delfino for 8 minutes straight.

Define neutral.

Battlefield, lylat, yoshis, smashville, and final destination. If I try to propose a legitimate definition you will just misconstrude it into it being unfair towards numerous characters even though they are really not--and you're exagerrating the power those characters have upon them.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You crazy yo. It is not biased against metaknight, in fact I'm stating your desires are probably biased towards metaknight. There is such a thing as diddy kong, ics, or falco on battlefield (which they really aren't that great on, they're okay there) and a shark happy metaknight up airing under delfino for 8 minutes straight.

So what?
Again I ask, why is it all right to give those characters the stages they do well on, as opposed to giving MK a stage he does well on.
WOMG HE GAY, SHARKING UNDER THAT STAGE!

Its a legit tactic, deal with it.
You can always strike the stage.

MK doesn't have a truly "bad" stage for him.

Battlefield, lylat, yoshis, smashville, and final destination. If I try to propose a legitimate definition you will just misconstrude it into it being unfair towards numerous characters even though they are really not--and you're exagerrating the power those characters have upon them.

Ther eis absolutely nothing int he game that will be perfectly fair.
So no, it would be a frivolous statement to make.
Furthermore, no one is exaggerating anything. There is no need to try and strawman.

The argument: Diddy, IC's and Falco should not start on stages that are geared towards them.
It isn't "Diddy, IC's and Falco get MASSIVE ADVANTAGES on these stages."
It is "This gives Diddy, IC's and Falco a good stage which would typically be used for a counterpick."

So they get 2 counterpicks instead of 1.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ther eis absolutely nothing int he game that will be perfectly fair.
So no, it would be a frivolous statement to make.
Furthermore, no one is exaggerating anything. There is no need to try and strawman.

The argument: Diddy, IC's and Falco should not start on stages that are geared towards them.
It isn't "Diddy, IC's and Falco get MASSIVE ADVANTAGES on these stages."
It is "This gives Diddy, IC's and Falco a good stage which would typically be used for a counterpick."

So they get 2 counterpicks instead of 1.

How is either of those stages geared towards those characterS?

No it does not, it is something you are perceiving.
He is stating that Diddy should not be starting off on a stage that would typically be his counterpick.
Seriously, why is it all right for Diddy to get one of his stages, but unfair for MK?
I call shenanigans.

The stage list that T-block and OS speak of would make it so that it would be the fairest choice.
The stage in which neither character excels.

A 5 stage list gives Diddy, IC's and Falco an advantage that they typically should not be having first round.

I don't understand how many times I need to explain this however just because Diddy Kong CPs a neutral doesn't mean it's a stage that caters to him. When a stage like Delifino is allowed to be a starter and that stage is a huge counter for some characters yet it is allowed. I have no reason to view your opinions as bias and your objective and your reasoning as non sense garbage and Bull.

 

[Judo777]

the fact that u are trying to change the entire system because u dont like how gay MK is on alot of stages is ridiculous to begin with if MK is such a huge issue that we have to change about 5 or 6 rules and change the entire stage striking system around him its a little bit ridiculous. Just ban him if u have to take such measures.

And ADHD ur opinion is already extremely biased toward the 5 stage cp system. "No ur stages arent fair 5 stages is fair. Why aren't ur stages fair? because they aren't the 5 stages i just listed thats why." MK is absurd on every stage. You said not too long ago that MK was just something that had to be overcome and the MU must be learned. Well if thats the case then over come him and don't try to change around the rules to help yourself or whoever. If MK is only a character that can be handled on the previous stage system then there is clearly a problem with the character and not the stages. lemme look at what diddy has to play with around the 9 stage system.

Diddy goes first and strikes Delf, CS, Hal,
MK goes second and strikes FD,SV,BF,PS1
Diddy fgoes next and they play on YI or lylat probably YI. WHhy is that terrible thats one of ur 5 stages anyway?

Now we'll flip the tables

MK goes first and strikes FD,SV,BF
Diddy goes second and strikes Delf,CS,Hal, and Lylat maybe? (this is assuming diddy is good on ps1 which i think he is)
MK then strikes PS1 and the game goes to YI again it doesnt seem to matter much.....

So now is the problem that u hate having to play on YI as opposed to SV?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

the fact that u are trying to change the entire system because u dont like how gay MK is on alot of stages is ridiculous to begin with if MK is such a huge issue that we have to change about 5 or 6 rules and change the entire stage striking system around him its a little bit ridiculous. Just ban him if u have to take such measures.

And ADHD ur opinion is already extremely biased toward the 5 stage cp system. "No ur stages arent fair 5 stages is fair. Why aren't ur stages fair? because they aren't the 5 stages i just listed thats why." MK is absurd on every stage. You said not too long ago that MK was just something that had to be overcome and the MU must be learned. Well if thats the case then over come him and don't try to change around the rules to help him. If MK is only a character that can be handled on the previous stage system then there is clearly a problem with the character and not the stages. lemme look at what diddy has to play with around the 9 stage system.

Diddy goes first and strikes Delf, CS, Hal,
MK goes second and strikes FD,SV,BF,PS1
Diddy fgoes next and they play on YI or lylat probably YI. WHhy is that terrible thats one of ur 5 stages anyway?

Now we'll flip the tables

MK goes first and strikes FD,SV,BF
Diddy goes second and strikes Delf,CS,Hal, and Lylat maybe? (this is assuming diddy is good on ps1 which i think he is)
MK then strikes PS1 and the game goes to YI again it doesnt seem to matter much.....

So now is the problem that u hate having to play on YI as opposed to SV?

MK can shark and plank on lylat and according to halberd YI is really good for MK. As a diddy I'd rather play a MK on FD SV or BF. Same goes with the Mjaority of the cast. Also your striking stage is pretty bad since mK wouldn't strike BF or Sv against a diddy kong. They'd strike FD YI and CS. Diddy would have to strike Delfino and Halberd then have to narrow it down to whatever stage he's doesn't want to see.

 

[ShadowLink84]

How is either of those stages geared towards those characterS?

....

*facedesk*

I don't understand how many times I need to explain this however just because Diddy Kong CPs a neutral doesn't mean it's a stage that caters to him. When a stage like Delifino is allowed to be a starter and that stage is a huge counter for some characters yet it is allowed. I have no reason to view your opinions as bias and your objective and your reasoning as non sense garbage and Bull.

I don't understand how many times it has to be said before it breaks through your hardened skull.
Seriously, three people have said it to you multiple times.

"YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE YOUR COUNTERPICK AS A STARTER STAGE!"
Meanwhile you're saying
"ITS NOT COOL FOR MK TO HAVE A COUNTERPICK STAGE AS A STARTER! ITS GAY!"
This is known as being hypocritical!
You're saying its okay in one situation then not okay in the other?
Let alone that you keep bringing up Delfino.
STRIKE IT!

In fact, replace Delfino with Frigate, way better stage IMO

Now you are left with 3 other stages to strike.
The goal is so that NEITHER character benefits.
You're just playing favoritism.
Let alone that a 9 starter stage list does not favor 3 characters as a 5 start stage list does.
Finally, there is no such thing as a neutral stage. Just because the stage has no platforms and is flat does NOT mean it is neutral.

MK can shark and plank on lylat and according to halberd YI is really good for MK. As a diddy I'd rather play a MK on FD SV or BF. Same goes with the majority of the cast. Also your striking stage is pretty bad since mK wouldn't strike BF or Sv against a diddy kong. They'd strike FD YI and CS. Diddy would have to strike Delfino and Halberd then have to narrow it down to whatever stage he's doesn't want to see.

So, its a bad system because it doesn't make Diddy happy?

 

[Judo777]

MK can shark and plank on lylat and according to halberd YI is really good for MK. As a diddy I'd rather play a MK on FD SV or BF. Same goes with the Mjaority of the cast. Also your striking stage is pretty bad since mK wouldn't strike BF or Sv against a diddy kong. They'd strike FD YI and CS. Diddy would have to strike Delfino and Halberd then have to narrow it down to whatever stage he's doesn't want to see.

Ok but Mk is good on every stage. And u only make my point even better btw. MK strikes those 3 diddy then proceeds to strike Delf, Hal, LY, and (PS1 or BF which ever one) then its smash ville or the other which........ is where it always goes in the 5 stage system anyway. It doesnt seem to matter.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't understand how many times it has to be said before it breaks through your hardened skull.
Seriously, three people have said it to you multiple times.

This is how I can tell you're bad at this game and whoever is arguing this point is bad. First off is we start the match on SV and you win there as diddy you can't go back to that stage again. If you like to CP a starter stage then that's you, I tend to CP SV since I like that stage. It shouldn't matter if my CP is a neutral or my character out performs another character on this stage. A CP is a true is DK taking me to brinstar or Japes. Mk going RC or Brinstar. Wario going RC or Brinstar. Snake going Brinstar. D3 going Halberd of Delifino. Selecting a neutral as a CP just means that you feel that you're better than your opponent and your character out performs another character on said stage.

"YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE YOUR COUNTERPICK AS A STARTER STAGE!"
Meanwhile you're saying
"ITS NOT COOL FOR MK TO HAVE A COUNTERPICK STAGE AS A STARTER! ITS GAY!"
This is known as being hypocritical!
You're saying its okay in one situation then not okay in the other?
Let alone that you keep bringing up Delfino.
STRIKE IT!

Delifinio shouldn't even be an option in the first. MK makes up a large amount of the metagame therefor he should be the focus of the ruleset. I don't see how adding stage where MK can shark d3 can walk off with CG's and pika is a good Idea for a starter stage. Ness and Lucas is also pretty decent on Delfinio. Then factor in the water and stuff it's just flat out silly.

In fact, replace Delfino with Frigate, way better stage IMO

Now you are left with 3 other stages to strike.
The goal is so that NEITHER character benefits.
You're just playing favoritism.
Let alone that a 9 starter stage list does not favor 3 characters as a 5 start stage list does.
Finally, there is no such thing as a neutral stage. Just because the stage has no platforms and is flat does NOT mean it is neutral.

No character benefits from Battlefield being a starter. However, On Delifino Ness and Lucas is able to **** their recovery underneath the bottom platform and recover like that. MK can attack from under the stage and d3 can walk off with CG's and has wall infinites Wario get's free wafts with someone falls into the water let's not forget the spiking that also goes on with that stage. So you mean to tell me something like this is exceptable that encchance all these character yet you piss and moan about a diddy kong to BF ( which isn't even his best neutral? ) Get a ****ing clue. Seriously.

I also disagree with the notion that frigate should be a starter not being able to grab a ledge on that right side ***** recoveries and leaves some characters extremely vulnerable ( marth, Zelda, Pikachu, Ike) just to name a few.

Ok but Mk is good on every stage. And u only make my point even better btw. MK strikes those 3 diddy then proceeds to strike Delf, Hal, LY, and (PS1 or BF which ever one) then its smash ville or the other which........ is where it always goes in the 5 stage system anyway. It doesnt seem to matter.

So then what's the point of adding the extra stages? Also diddy MK is a bad example I've given an example where d3 can get his desired stage against a character he can CG no matter how you strike.

 

[Judo777]

So then what's the point of adding the extra stages? Also diddy MK is a bad example I've given an example where d3 can get his desired stage against a character he can CG no matter how you strike.

Because the game revolves around more than just MK and Diddy lol. I like starting off maybe going castle siege against luigi instead of SV cause alot of luigis dont like playing sheik on any of the starters except BF or YI both of which i'll strike.

And i'm confused if i were a cgable char against D3 i would just strike Delf, FD and PS1 right off the bat. CS isn't even an issue because most chars that are vulnerable to walk offs on that part can just stay on the top banisters and platforms during that transformation against D3 it would be cake compared to like doing it to olimar or yoshi who are 2 chars that that frequently happens with.

 

[Eddie G]

This is how I can tell you're bad at this game and whoever is arguing this point is bad. First off is we start the match on SV and you win there as diddy you can't go back to that stage again. If you like to CP a starter stage then that's you, I tend to CP SV since I like that stage. It shouldn't matter if my CP is a neutral or my character out performs another character on this stage. A CP is a true is DK taking me to brinstar or Japes. Mk going RC or Brinstar. Wario going RC or Brinstar. Snake going Brinstar. D3 going Halberd of Delifino. Selecting a neutral as a CP just means that you feel that you're better than your opponent and your character out performs another character on said stage.

...*also headdesks*

He means that with a 5 stage starter system it is inevitable that a first game will begin on either FD, SV, or BF, and all three are considered to be very favorable/counterpick material for Falco, Diddy, and ICs. He's not talking about what stage is picked for the second game, in fact, he's wasn't referring to the second game counterpick situation at all.

First game is the topic here.

And stop bringing MK up as some kind of support to your argument. He is flexible throughout the entire stagelist. He is the only outlier among the cast when it comes to significant stage effects on characters. How many times have I previously pointed this out?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Because the game revolves around more than just MK and Diddy lol. I like starting off maybe going castle siege against luigi instead of SV cause alot of luigis dont like playing sheik on any of the starters except BF or YI both of which i'll strike.

And i'm confused if i were a cgable char against D3 i would just strike Delf, FD and PS1 right off the bat. CS isn't even an issue because most chars that are vulnerable to walk offs on that part can just stay on the top banisters and platforms during that transformation against D3 it would be cake compared to like doing it to olimar or yoshi who are 2 chars that that frequently happens with.

I know it's not just MK and Diddy kong however, if I go through the whole character list and way the pros and con of stage selection then look at MU' list it becomes way too long. Since people constantly talk about

...*also headdesks*

He means that with a 5 stage starter system it is inevitable that a first game will begin on either FD, SV, or BF, and all three are considered to be very favorable/counterpick material for Falco, Diddy, and ICs. He's not talking about what stage is picked for the second game, in fact, he's wasn't referring to the second game counterpick situation at all. Also what about the situation where you get grabbed and then the stage starts to transform? YOu do realize that d3 can walk off CG you in between transformations also? I don't see how you can even claim that anything like that is better than me starting on BF. I also would like to point out the extremely crappy blast zones on that stage.

First game is the topic here.

What advantage does a falco get by using BF as a CP against Marth? Same with IC's and Diddy Kong? Even if it's a good stage for them does a Diddy kong taking you to BF really change the MU for you? IF so how? What does BF now do that becomes problematic to you? IF we look at the MU's and then look at the stage list it's pretty obvious that the stage isn't the problem just the character or the person playing the character.

 

[Eddie G]

What advantage does a falco get by using BF as a CP against Marth? Same with IC's and Diddy Kong? Even if it's a good stage for them does a Diddy kong taking you to BF really change the MU for you? IF so how? What does BF now do that becomes problematic to you? IF we look at the MU's and then look at the stage list it's pretty obvious that the stage isn't the problem just the character or the person playing the character.

Lol, I could ask you the same about how a 9 stage starter system heavily skews things in specific characters' favors. Or are you going to default to "but but but MK does good on these stages" like some other people have?

Can you present a legitimate argument that excludes the only character-to-stage outlier (Metaknight) as a default example?

 

[Sharky]

why does it have to be either 5 stages or 9 stages?

why not

fd
sv
bf
halberd
yi
ps1
lylat

that way you can get rid of the three IC/falco/diddy stages, and the diddy can get rid of stuff like halberd and yoshi's if you are going to complain about them so much?

makes sense to me at least =/

 

[T-block]

I think arguing the reason for moving away from the 5-starter system is a lost cause. As I said, it comes down to school of thought - arguing over ideals doesn't get us anywhere.

Let's instead try to focus on why the 9-starter system is good. AlmostLegendary, you didn't answer my question: what is so bad about using 9 starters? I find it hard to believe that you don't agree that the first match will be played on a "fairer" stage with 9 starters.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This make it sound as if diddy's are overcentralizing the metagame...which is clearly not the case, because diddy only strives on one of these stages.

But you see, while diddy kong, falco, and ice climbers are best on battlefield, sv, and fd, other characters are not hindered by it lol. They happen to just not suck on these stages. In the first place, if there is any matchup ratio change on smashville and fd then just start off on battlefield? It's REALLY HARD to argue that battlefield is not legit.

Imagine a hypothetical character. He is absolutely horrible on the current starter list. In fact, he has 1 good stage. He is absoute garbage unless he gets his counterpick, in which case he pretty much automatically wins. However, several regions have been tooling it so that, game 1, he gets that stage, or stages very similar to it, almost every time on the first game. Remember, this is a character that sucks on most stages unless they look like a certain stage (let's say, the stage must have lava for him to win), but if he gets his counterpick, he pretty much ***** the whole cast.
Would we retool the stage list to cater to him, so he always goes to either Brinstar or Norfair game one? Of course not!

Basically the issue here is that these "neutral starters" are mostly counterpicks for the characters in questions. As in, most of the time, you WANT the character to play there and will choose it as a counterpick. If we go from a 9-stage to a 5-stage system, this is how it would have to look like to be reasonably fair:

Battlefield
Castle Siege
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium
Yoshi’s Island

Yeah, pretty much that. That ensures at least a moderately fair stage pick for most matchups, and ensures that you don't get your typical situation with 5-starter lists where ICs/Diddy/Falco get a free counterpick in most matchups. If two counterpicks instead of one is what is necessary for a character to be good, the character is BAD.

Also, why are you guys johning about the starter list so much? You should look into getting RC/Brinstar or MK banned instead, much more helpful for balance. Take the most broken character's two best cps away.

 

[CR4SH]

In response to "define neutral"

...final destination..

Why is anyone talking to this joker?

ADHD, do less drugs before you try and debate.

 

[Plairnkk]

adhd is annoying

 

[sandwhale]

So no one has yet to say why Battlefield is a worse starter than Lylat/Castle Siege/Halberd? I wonder why...oh wait, it's because it's not.

 

[-Eve-]

I personally thing the set list is fine how it is, for now.
The TVs won't go away

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

In response to "define neutral"



Why is anyone talking to this joker?

ADHD, do less drugs before you try and debate.

OH GOD HOW DID I MISS THAT

ADHD, stop being one of the following:
-Retardedly biased
-Retardedly ********

FD is one of the worst starters in the 7-list, and bad even in the 9-list.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I personally thing the set list is fine how it is, for now.
The TVs won't go away

i went to best buy yesterday and looked at some LCD monitors that where around the 99$-150$ zone

gonna do some research on them today. I took pictures of the price tag + info on the monitors and some claim they're especially built to help reduce image lag

i'll get back to u on the details once i find out more stuff about these monitors

 

[ADHD]

....

*facedesk*

I don't understand how many times it has to be said before it breaks through your hardened skull.
Seriously, three people have said it to you multiple times.

"YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE YOUR COUNTERPICK AS A STARTER STAGE!"
Meanwhile you're saying
"ITS NOT COOL FOR MK TO HAVE A COUNTERPICK STAGE AS A STARTER! ITS GAY!"
This is known as being hypocritical!
You're saying its okay in one situation then not okay in the other?
Let alone that you keep bringing up Delfino.
STRIKE IT!

Now you are left with 3 other stages to strike.
The goal is so that NEITHER character benefits.
You're just playing favoritism.
Let alone that a 9 starter stage list does not favor 3 characters as a 5 start stage list does.
Finally, there is no such thing as a neutral stage. Just because the stage has no platforms and is flat does NOT mean it is neutral.



So, its a bad system because it doesn't make Diddy happy?

You are bad at this game and this is why opinions like this are born from you.

You are not comprehending HOW POWERFUL delfino, lylat, or castle seige is to metaknight in contrast to diddy/falco/ics on a stage like battlefield. NULLIFIED.

In fact, replace Delfino with Frigate, way better stage IMO

RANDOMNESS FTW I SEE HOW YOU THINK.

OH GOD HOW DID I MISS THAT

ADHD, stop being one of the following:
-Retardedly biased
-Retardedly ********

FD is one of the worst starters in the 7-list, and bad even in the 9-list.

So strike it? When have you seen me play game 1 on FD, or larry, or lain.. let alone anyone that uses these characters?

List what's wrong with FD, because camping is a viable strategy anywhere. Also, you are bad at this game, too. I'd beat you with kirby or something.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

You are not comprehending HOW POWERFUL delfino, lylat, or castle seige is to metaknight in contrast to diddy/falco/ics on a stage like battlefield. NULLIFIED.

So strike it?

Oh this is gold

 

[Laem]

stop making fun of ADHD homes or else he will kick yo ***

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You are not comprehending HOW POWERFUL delfino, lylat, or castle seige is to metaknight in contrast to diddy/falco/ics on a stage like battlefield. NULLIFIED.

This is because metaknight is metaknight. Remember back when a bunch of people proposed banning him? Nobody will ever gain as much from any stage list that isn't literally just FD/BF/SV than him. And I do not mean starter, I mean full stagelist. The issue here is not how powerful, it's "is this a counterpick for that character". Look at my example before-if a character is bad on every stage except for a very few limited one, the character is bad.

So strike it? When have you seen me play game 1 on FD, or larry, or lain.. let alone anyone that uses these characters?

Let's throw RC on there too while we're at it. It's just as polarizing, it's a first-pick counterpick for many characters, but we can strike it. Half serious-it balances out the presence of FD on that list.

List what's wrong with FD, because camping is a viable strategy anywhere. Also, you are bad at this game, too. I'd beat you with kirby or something.

Theory ≠ practice. I'm aware you'd destroy me with just about anyone you pick; my smash experience is limited to my scrubby friends, 1P mode, and wifi with about 5-15 frames of lag tacked on. Doesn't mean I can't be more knowledgeable than you in smash theory. I mean, M2K still ****ing thinks Diddy is better than MK.

The problem with FD is that, against projectile spam, CGers, and good stage control, it offers no options. Let's take the ICs on FD. Any other stage, you platform camp them. You attack by retreating to a platform and attacking with things like well-spaced dairs, or projectiles-stuff they can't shieldgrab. On FD, whatcha gonna do? Pray you have a projectile, I guess. There's not really anywhere to run. Its flat nature limits your options severely. It really doesn't help either that it's a very early pick (or first pick, depending on stage list and matchup) for:
-DDD
-Falco
-Diddy
-ICs
(-In some matchups such as vs. G&W MK)

In short, it's one of the best stages for some of the most inflated, limited characters in the game. And this is a starter why?

 

[Gnes]

I've said this yet everyone just ignores this point.

So I see

No it does not, it is something you are perceiving.
He is stating that Diddy should not be starting off on a stage that would typically be his counterpick.
Seriously, why is it all right for Diddy to get one of his stages, but unfair for MK?
I call shenanigans.

The stage list that T-block and OS speak of would make it so that it would be the fairest choice.
The stage in which neither character excels.

A 5 stage list gives Diddy, IC's and Falco an advantage that they typically should not be having first round.

This is wrong once again because ur of the WRONG belief that diddy excels on battlefield or smashville, WHICH he does not. The only stage diddy excels on is FD(maybe picto). Battlefield/Smashville is just picked to put him at a "neutral" stance with whatever chr. hes playing again. Diddy does not get one of his stages automatically, its something ur perceiving with wrong information at the center of the issue.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Again, the problem is that people are assuming that

1) There are no stages that give characters large benefits
2) Only stages in the CP list should give characters large benefits

Obviously some characters will do well on the neutrals as well as really any stage. As far as the best neutral stage IMO, if you were to take stages by themselves and forego the whole striking system and just look at stages that don't provide large benefits to X character, they'd probably be Yoshi's first, then BF and SV. and even then some characters still do well on those stages. There is not going to be a stage a character does not do well on, but people seem to be assuming this.

Snake vs. D3, Snake strikes
FD, PS1, Delfino, CS

D3 strikes
Halberd, SV, Yoshi's, Lylat

Match is on BF (most of the time the same thing would happen on a 5 stage starter; match ends up on BF, SV, or Yoshi's)

Diddy vs. MK, Diddy strikes (or at least I would strike)
Delfino, PS1, Lylat, CS

MK strikes
FD, BF, SV, Yoshi's?

Match goes to Halberd or Yoshi's (slightly worse for Diddy but still doable as compared to a 5 stage starter)

But that's fine, since people said at least more characters would be viable in a 9 stage starter list (which sounds like it's assuming the same characters wouldn't be viable in a 5 stage starter because the current neutrals don't actually hinder many characters). So let's do like

Luigi vs. MK, Luigi strikes
Delfino, PS1, SV, Lylat

MK strikes
FD, BF, Halberd, CS

Match goes to Yoshi's. Or maybe Lylat (not sure how well Luigi does there) or SV (but MK can just abuse the platform better lol). Yes that's just one example, but with everything else at first glance, nothing seems to change. Someone prove to me that a 9 stage starter list actually makes some match-ups "better" or helps more characters and doesn't just make Diddy, ICs, and Falco worse.

inb4 "i'm not listing specific examples that would take too long," everyone's already hounding on those 3 characters and how they're OPd on a 5 stage starter list, the least you could do is say who all benefits from a 9 stage starter list.

edit: BPC, no offense, but if you don't play this game at a high or moderate level, you can't really understand the game at a high or moderate level, so it's kinda hard to theorycraft what happens at a high or moderate level. I know I'm missing a ton of knowledge about this game at a high level (I place just outside the money in my state, I'm moderate at best) so I generally try to steer away from debating match-ups or characters I don't know. But sorry, I can't assume you understand the game if you don't actually play it and a very simple option like approaching with a shield out of dash was a new concept to you a few weeks ago (Pierce's thread). I really mean this in the nicest way possible.

edit2: I'm for a 7 stage starter btw, I just fail to see how a 9 is necessarily better.

 

[fkacyan]

People seriously think that Diddy and Falco are limited by anything that isn't MK?

Comic gold, guys!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So I see

This is wrong once again because ur of the WRONG belief that diddy excels on battlefield or smashville, WHICH he does not. The only stage diddy excels on is FD(maybe picto). Battlefield/Smashville is just picked to put him at a "neutral" stance with whatever chr. hes playing again. Diddy does not get one of his stages automatically, its something ur perceiving with wrong information at the center of the issue.

Oh, so diddy has one good stage and is mediocre-bad on every other stage?

...

Wow, diddy is one ****ty character.
Again, if your character is bad on all but a few "neutrals", it is a bad character! There's no reason the starter list of the game should look like the "I would cp this" list for mains of characters X, Y, and Z.

Again, the problem is that people are assuming that

1) There are no stages that give characters large benefits

Wrong...

2) Only stages in the CP list should give characters large benefits

True. Why the hell not?

edit: BPC, no offense, but if you don't play this game at a high or moderate level, you can't really understand the game at a high or moderate level, so it's kinda hard to theorycraft what happens at a high or moderate level. I know I'm missing a ton of knowledge about this game at a high level (I place just outside the money in my state, I'm moderate at best) so I generally try to steer away from debating match-ups or characters I don't know. But sorry, I can't assume you understand the game if you don't actually play it and a very simple option like approaching with a shield out of dash was a new concept to you a few weeks ago (Pierce's thread). I really mean this in the nicest way possible.

Most of the stuff I present as arguments is not pulled out of my ***, it's pulled out of AZ's/OS's/etc. + necessary logic :V

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Lol, I could ask you the same about how a 9 stage starter system heavily skews things in specific characters' favors. Or are you going to default to "but but but MK does good on these stages" like some other people have?

Can you present a legitimate argument that excludes the only character-to-stage outlier (Metaknight) as a default example?

I asked you how the diddy peach MU is affected by diddy going to BF. Not about mK plz don't skirt the question since a lot of you guys have been doing that. You also didn't tell me how IC Falco and Diddy CP's Marth by taking them to FD as opposed to Marth taking any of the mto brinstar that's how you CP. If yo uwant to run down the character list each MU then we can do that.

Again, the problem is that people are assuming that

1) There are no stages that give characters large benefits
2) Only stages in the CP list should give characters large benefits

First off one is wrong because I've pointed out time and time again stages that give characters large benefits. Please explain to me why a starter stage should give a character a large benefit that's stupid.

Obviously some characters will do well on the neutrals as well as really any stage. As far as the best neutral stage IMO, if you were to take stages by themselves and forego the whole striking system and just look at stages that don't provide large benefits to X character, they'd probably be Yoshi's first, then BF and SV. and even then some characters still do well on those stages. There is not going to be a stage a character does not do well on, but people seem to be assuming this.

Why would YI be first? OR a e you just pulling **** out of oyur ***?

Snake vs. D3, Snake strikes
FD, PS1, Delfino, CS

D3 strikes
Halberd, SV, Yoshi's, Lylat

Match is on BF (most of the time the same thing would happen on a 5 stage starter; match ends up on BF, SV, or Yoshi's)

why would d3 strike YI and Halberd? Both stages are pretty good for d3. I really get tired of people talking about character stages and not knowing **** about what stages they prefer, It's pretty arrogant of you guys.

Diddy vs. MK, Diddy strikes (or at least I would strike)
Delfino, PS1, Lylat, CS

MK strikes
FD, BF, SV, Yoshi's?

Match goes to Halberd or Yoshi's (slightly worse for Diddy but still doable as compared to a 5 stage starter)

Why wouldn't you strike Halberd? Oh wait I know it's for the same reason I already stated nice try though learn something about stage selection please.

But that's fine, since people said at least more characters would be viable in a 9 stage starter list (which sounds like it's assuming the same characters wouldn't be viable in a 5 stage starter because the current neutrals don't actually hinder many characters). So let's do like

IF the correct neutral doesn't hinder many characters why increase the stage list to then add stages that will hinder characterS?

Luigi vs. MK, Luigi strikes
Delfino, PS1, SV, Lylat

MK strikes
FD, BF, Halberd, CS

Match goes to Yoshi's. Or maybe Lylat (not sure how well Luigi does there) or SV (but MK can just abuse the platform better lol). Yes that's just one example, but with everything else at first glance, nothing seems to change. Someone prove to me that a 9 stage starter list actually makes some match-ups "better" or helps more characters and doesn't just make Diddy, ICs, and Falco worse.

For a 3rd straight time you've failed to demostrate you knowledge on stage selection and failed to realize stages that characters prefer. There's no way in hell MK would strike BF or halberd. There's no reason for Luigi no to strike these stages. There's no reason for him to strike SV.

inb4 "i'm not listing specific examples that would take too long," everyone's already hounding on those 3 characters and how they're OPd on a 5 stage starter list, the least you could do is say who all benefits from a 9 stage starter list.

edit: BPC, no offense, but if you don't play this game at a high or moderate level, you can't really understand the game at a high or moderate level, so it's kinda hard to theorycraft what happens at a high or moderate level. I know I'm missing a ton of knowledge about this game at a high level (I place just outside the money in my state, I'm moderate at best) so I generally try to steer away from debating match-ups or characters I don't know. But sorry, I can't assume you understand the game if you don't actually play it and a very simple option like approaching with a shield out of dash was a new concept to you a few weeks ago (Pierce's thread). I really mean this in the nicest way possible.

you're missing knowledge on a basic level. I suggest you go back and look up which characters prefer which neutral. How well X character does on Y counter pick and things of that nature. I'm almost certain every character board has this list.

 

[Deleted member]

I think arguing the reason for moving away from the 5-starter system is a lost cause. As I said, it comes down to school of thought - arguing over ideals doesn't get us anywhere.

I agree. I thought people were arguing for a 7-starter, but 5 seems too small to me. 7 seems more reasonable. That way both sides somewhat get what they want, and hopefully everybody's happy (hahahahaha, yeah right).

Let's instead try to focus on why the 9-starter system is good. AlmostLegendary, you didn't answer my question: what is so bad about using 9 starters? I find it hard to believe that you don't agree that the first match will be played on a "fairer" stage with 9 starters.

I was under the impression (and I could be wrong), that the problem with 9 stages, is that characters like MK (maybe just MK, idk) have so many stages which they are very strong on and very few stages which they don't like. Once the MK finishes banning stages which they don't like (I don't think there are many of these), then the MK gets to pick from stages which already give him a strong advantage.

However, if we take away 2 strong MK stages, then the MK will only be able to strike 3 stages, meaning that at least he won't have as much of an opportunity to pick from stages which already give him a strong advantage.

Some people have said that MK has an advantage on all stages, and we shouldn't be making all these rules because of him. Yes, but any steps we can take to minimize that advantage (other than items and hacking) should be taken, up until the point of course that he's not #1 (which I doubt would happen). And rules made just for MK are well, necessary. Half of the players (I think it was half) in the top 16 of the last MLG were MKs. That means that approximately 75% of the matches involved MK. So yeah, he's a pretty important part of the game.

Other people have said that this is just pro ICs, Falco, and Diddy, and will leave the "worse" characters behind. I'm not suggesting a pro ICs, Falco, Diddy stagelist. I'm proposing an "anti" MK stagelist to try to reduce his advantage. I doubt it's impossible to find 2 amazing MK stages to remove which are not needed stages for other characters to survive.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Oh, so diddy has one good stage and is mediocre-bad on every other stage?

...

Wow, diddy is one ****ty character.
Again, if your character is bad on all but a few "neutrals", it is a bad character! There's no reason the starter list of the game should look like the "I would cp this" list for mains of characters X, Y, and Z.

Just because a character is limited by a stage doesn't make him a bad character .We've all seen what diddy kong is capable of at high levels of player to simply write him off as a bad character is silly. Same goes for Falco and IC's.

 

[T-block]

This is wrong once again because ur of the WRONG belief that diddy excels on battlefield or smashville, WHICH he does not. The only stage diddy excels on is FD(maybe picto). Battlefield/Smashville is just picked to put him at a "neutral" stance with whatever chr. hes playing again. Diddy does not get one of his stages automatically, its something ur perceiving with wrong information at the center of the issue.

This is interesting... I think it'd be interesting to get a poll going to see how many people actually think like this (not being sarcastic... maybe there's more than I thought).

But let me ask you this... what are Diddy's top 5 stages in general, if he's only mediocre on BF/SV?

Just because a character is limited by a stage doesn't make him a bad character .We've all seen what diddy kong is capable of at high levels of player to simply write him off as a bad character is silly. Same goes for Falco and IC's.

You're missing the point. BPC shouldn't have said "bad character". We are operating under the idea that stage adaptability is one of the factors in deciding a character's viability. If we follow that idea, then it's not that Diddy is in reality a bad character; it's more he's not as good as the 5-starter system makes him (ie- artificially buffed).

 

[AvaricePanda]

First off one is wrong because I've pointed out time and time again stages that give characters large benefits. Please explain to me why a starter stage should give a character a large benefit that's stupid.

Please read more. I said THE PROBLEM IS THAT PEOPLE ARE ASSUMING THESE THINGS, obviously I think the opposite of both.

Why would YI be first? OR a e you just pulling **** out of oyur ***?

I prefaced that with "In my opinion" and I say that because almost every other stage gives some characters, at least in some match-ups, pretty large benefits, and YI seems to give less. For example, D3, ICs, Falco, and Diddy all do really well on FD; MK and Snake can abuse the SV platform to do really well on it. There aren't many characters who do the best on Yoshi's Island or prefer it over others. There are some odd gimmicks there, but from what I know, it's the least advantage giving one.

why would d3 strike YI and Halberd? Both stages are pretty good for d3. I really get tired of people talking about character stages and not knowing **** about what stages they prefer, It's pretty arrogant of you guys.

I'm not saying any of that as 100% fact. And D3 does pretty well on BF as well. Yes I realize that he does well on Yoshi's and Halberd (but usually I see Halberd as a CP for Snake as well so I just thought he'd strike it), my point was that the end stage probably wouldn't be different from a 5 stage starter as compared to a 9 stage starter.

Why wouldn't you strike Halberd? Oh wait I know it's for the same reason I already stated nice try though learn something about stage selection please.

Coming from the actual Diddy main I'll say that Halberd is not a bad stage for Diddy, and other than the fact that MK can shark the moving platform, it's not that great of a stage for MK as compared to others. All I have to do to avoid sharking is like, jump or get on the top platform, and if he messes up his spacing while he's doing it I can upB spike him lol. The static stage part has a good layout for Diddy; the platform's at a nice height and he can control the stage really well. Why would I strike it when I can strike Delfino (which is still doable but worse than halberd IMO), PS1 (where MK can easily time me out and controls the transformations better than I do, also I live in the same region as like OS lol), Lylat (larger, I like controlling slightly smaller space with Diddy), and Castle Siege (first transformation is meh, and second is really dumb).

Maybe you shouldn't be so aggressive and automatically think your opinion is right all the time. It comes off completely rude of you to say, "wow you ****ing don't understand **** about this game you ****ing scrub"

IF the correct neutral doesn't hinder many characters why increase the stage list to then add stages that will hinder characterS?

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING IF YOU READ MY POST LOL MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T ARGUE FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING BECAUSE DUMB STUFF LIKE THIS HAPPENS

For a 3rd straight time you've failed to demostrate you knowledge on stage selection and failed to realize stages that characters prefer. There's no way in hell MK would strike BF or halberd. There's no reason for Luigi no to strike these stages. There's no reason for him to strike SV.

In this particular match-up, I thought it'd be obvious that MK would strike Halberd with it being one of Luigi's best stages. Keep in mind MK does well on like every stage and so it comes down to not what he personally does best on by himself, but what works in the match-up and what the opponent wants. Halberd is great for Luigi so he'd want to strike it. Same with BF I think, I could be wrong. MK can just scrooge on SV and, from what I understand, Luigi has nothing to stop it. Even if he doesn't scrooge, he can camp the moving platform really well to his advantage. Most people should be striking SV against MK (Pierce elaborated on it better than I am right now).

you're missing knowledge on a basic level. I suggest you go back and look up which characters prefer which neutral. How well X character does on Y counter pick and things of that nature. I'm almost certain every character board has this list.

You should
1) Read what I'm saying
2) Be open to more information
3) Realize that how X character does on a stage by himself isn't the only factor towards CPing or striking, match-ups and the opponent heavily influence this
4) Not argue for the sake of arguing
5) Not be so rude because you think someone disagrees with you. There's no excuse for that
6) Realize that I'm arguing that I fail to see how a 9 stage starter is necessarily better than a 7.
7) I'm pretty sure I've said this enough, but not CUSS OUT SOMEONE WHO HALF AGREES WITH YOU LOL

 

[AvaricePanda]

Oh, so diddy has one good stage and is mediocre-bad on every other stage?

...

Wow, diddy is one ****ty character.
Again, if your character is bad on all but a few "neutrals", it is a bad character! There's no reason the starter list of the game should look like the "I would cp this" list for mains of characters X, Y, and Z.

You shouldn't argue for the sake of arguing. Neutral=\=bad and you know this.

In my opinion Diddy excels on BF too but lol it's Gnes so w.e

Most of the stuff I present as arguments is not pulled out of my ***, it's pulled out of AZ's/OS's/etc. + necessary logic :V

I'm just saying, you directly said "doesn't mean I can't be more knowledgeable than you in smash theory" to ADHD. I get what you're saying about taking other people's facts, but the statement that you who doesn't really play this game can be more knowledgeable about the theory of the game than a top player in the nation comes off the wrong way.

also, asking again, how does a 9 stage starter benefit more characters and not just make those 3 worse, why is it better than a 7 stage starter list, and who are some of the specific characters that get benefited from the 9 stage starter list that aren't from the 5 or 7.

edit: wow I definitely meant to edit that into my last post, sorry about the double post.