Event - MLG Anaheim 2014 So now that we know MLG hosts ridiculous smash tournaments...

[RESET Vao]

Diddy sure is high on the tier list for a character with only 'one' good stage. Lmao.

Also, those who were talking about Metaknight, I agree with the temporary prohibition.

 

[ADHD]

Diddy sure is high on the tier list for a character with only 'one' good stage. Lmao.

Also, those who were talking about Metaknight, I agree with the temporary prohibition.

He's good on 3. Smashville, battlefield, and ps1 (FD is always striked or banned). We only win because we win game 1, otherwise we'll outskill them game 2 and then be counterpicked to some annoying scenario like an air-camping metaknight on rainbow game 3.

That's the only reason we're that high on the tier list, lol.

Also, this needs to be emphasized: Diddy, falco, and ice climbers are not recieving unjust edges over other characters on battlefield, it is NOT (yes not) the same as metaknight on delfino.

 

[RESET Vao]

I was being sarcastic, ADHD. :3

I know he's good on SV from having my *** handed to me plenty of times.

 

[ADHD]

I was being sarcastic, ADHD. :3

I know he's good on SV from having my *** handed to me plenty of times.

Oh, I'm honestly curious what the next tier list is going to look like, though.

 

[RESET Vao]

I want to see Link overtake Zelda!

 

[AvaricePanda]

I think of all who could be third and none of them seem to work lol. Except maybe ICs on paper but that's on paper.

 

[sandwhale]

I see Pit getting third.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Just because a character is limited by a stage doesn't make him a bad character .We've all seen what diddy kong is capable of at high levels of player to simply write him off as a bad character is silly. Same goes for Falco and IC's.

No, it means he's a limited character. Judged with a 9-stage list? Diddy is considerably worse than a 3-stage, or say, a 5-stage because he doesn't automatically get one of his top stages. To call this a problem with the stagelist is stupid; it's a problem with the cahracter.

He's good on 3. Smashville, battlefield, and ps1 (FD is always striked or banned). We only win because we win game 1, otherwise we'll outskill them game 2 and then be counterpicked to some annoying scenario like an air-camping metaknight on rainbow game 3.

That's the only reason we're that high on the tier list, lol.

Also, this needs to be emphasized: Diddy, falco, and ice climbers are not recieving unjust edges over other characters on battlefield, it is NOT (yes not) the same as metaknight on delfino.

It is. In fact, it's even worse because delfino is not one of MK's best stages.

It doesn't matter how much of an extra edge they have. It matters what edge they're getting compared to the average they should be getting when you look at the whole stage list. If a character is terrible on most stages, but incredible on half the starters you make available, then he is getting a disproportionate advantage from the starter list. He would, fairly seen from the stagelist, be a much worse character. Instead, he's getting one of his better stages out of the whole list almost every time.

By comparison, MK gets a ridiculous edge when you look at all of his options on the stagelist. Almost no matter what stage, he gets a bigass bonus from it. Brinstar? RC? Norfair? GG? Orpheon? Delfino? And these are just his counterpicks, the stages he will overtly go to-he's still incredible on stages like PS2, PS1, Lylat, etc.
Delfino will almost never be a first, second, or even third pick for a competent metaknight. Compared to the average advantage he gets from the rest of the stage list, it's hard to claim that this is a gigantic boon for him. Plus? It's his best neutral on the list and you can still strike it-you can always strike him down to a stage that is considerably worse for him than his average advantage over the entire stage set.

Am I making any sense here?

 

[Judo777]

So if diddy is good on 4 stages: BF,FD,SV,and PS1 then........ why does he get 2 cps every set? on the 5 stage system he is guarenteed BF,SV or FD and hes CPing either PS1 or the one that wasnt played game 1. Sounds to me like diddy gets to play 2 cps every set with a 5 stage system.

And again are u guys seriously complaining about how ridiculous MK is one cps? NO REALLY?! Im pretty sure we said this like 5 months ago and everyone was all like "learn the MU get better" and so we were like "fine w/e" but now its like completely backwards. The way u are making it sound is that MK is the only character in the game that should never get 2-0ed sounds pretty ban worthy to me.

Also there is way too much "I'm good so I'm right" going on in this thread.

 

[PK-ow!]

tell me how it's done then.

First you make a claim.

Then, you put aside statements that refer to your own personal authority, or someone else's authority, or someone else's ignorance, or appeals to tradition.

Without using any statements like those, you give an argument for that first claim using premises which are strictly less controversial than that claim.

Then you assert that the claim is justified.


That's how you convince people of things when they want to know what's True.

also, asking again, how does a 9 stage starter benefit more characters and not just make those 3 worse, why is it better than a 7 stage starter list, and who are some of the specific characters that get benefited from the 9 stage starter list that aren't from the 5 or 7.

What is the difference between making N characters better vs. making 39 - N characters worse?
It's a game system. The characters only exist in a closed world with each other.


I know one obvious exceptional case to answer this, but if you see it, you'll also see that it can't be called relevantly the same as what happens when stage rules change.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So if diddy is good on 4 stages: BF,FD,SV,and PS1 then........ why does he get 2 cps every set?

Because he isn't as good without them.

 

[T-block]

Also, this needs to be emphasized: Diddy, falco, and ice climbers are not recieving unjust edges over other characters on battlefield, it is NOT (yes not) the same as metaknight on delfino.

Yeah we have to be careful when it comes to MK. He does well on all stages blahbalhfsoijaf, but Delfino is not in his top 3 stages, whereas FD, BF, SV are in Diddy's top 3. It's not about an absolute who-gets-a-bigger-advantage.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You're missing the point. BPC shouldn't have said "bad character". We are operating under the idea that stage adaptability is one of the factors in deciding a character's viability. If we follow that idea, then it's not that Diddy is in reality a bad character; it's more he's not as good as the 5-starter system makes him (ie- artificially buffed).

Diddy isn't artificially buffed by the 5 starter system. Just because he likes neutrals doesn't mean anything. You don't always have to have a CP being good neutrals shows he's viable. There's a plethora of other character that perform just as well if not better on the stages that diddy performs well on yet diddy is putting up better results than them. It's not the stage list but the players who are improving and being able to improve their game because they aren't involved in some non sense stage.

Please read more. I said THE PROBLEM IS THAT PEOPLE ARE ASSUMING THESE THINGS, obviously I think the opposite of both.

Ok.

I prefaced that with "In my opinion" and I say that because almost every other stage gives some characters, at least in some match-ups, pretty large benefits, and YI seems to give less. For example, D3, ICs, Falco, and Diddy all do really well on FD; MK and Snake can abuse the SV platform to do really well on it. There aren't many characters who do the best on Yoshi's Island or prefer it over others. There are some odd gimmicks there, but from what I know, it's the least advantage giving one.

I think Lucario's like YI and Fox has some stupid wall shine non sense on that stage also. DK has the up glitch thingy also. Yoshi can also do some funky stuff on that stage. MK and d3 are extremely hard to approach if their camping under that middle platform. It messes up falco's phatasm tricks and shy guys can block laser as well as the stage.

I'm not saying any of that as 100% fact. And D3 does pretty well on BF as well. Yes I realize that he does well on Yoshi's and Halberd (but usually I see Halberd as a CP for Snake as well so I just thought he'd strike it), my point was that the end stage probably wouldn't be different from a 5 stage starter as compared to a 9 stage starter.

If it aint broke don't fix it up. The fact that there's even a chance of people going to those stage shouldn't even be allowed.

Coming from the actual Diddy main I'll say that Halberd is not a bad stage for Diddy, and other than the fact that MK can shark the moving platform, it's not that great of a stage for MK as compared to others. All I have to do to avoid sharking is like, jump or get on the top platform, and if he messes up his spacing while he's doing it I can upB spike him lol. The static stage part has a good layout for Diddy; the platform's at a nice height and he can control the stage really well. Why would I strike it when I can strike Delfino (which is still doable but worse than halberd IMO), PS1 (where MK can easily time me out and controls the transformations better than I do, also I live in the same region as like OS lol), Lylat (larger, I like controlling slightly smaller space with Diddy), and Castle Siege (first transformation is meh, and second is really dumb).

This is true the sharking should be avoid however, it's rather dumb to just add another dimension to MK's game. Then have to rely on his mistakes. Also can't mK just as easily time you on on halberd depending on how long the platform is flying? Also I thought you mained snake they maybe a different panda guy though.

Maybe you shouldn't be so aggressive and automatically think your opinion is right all the time. It comes off completely rude of you to say, "wow you ****ing don't understand **** about this game you ****ing scrub"

I'm tired of hearing the same comments over and over and then have you use these scenarios in which you clearly demonstrate a lack of stage knowledge. If I offended you then sorry however, you should read up more on other characters if you're going to talk about striking stages.

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING IF YOU READ MY POST LOL MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T ARGUE FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING BECAUSE DUMB STUFF LIKE THIS HAPPENS

Your post is all of the place and it doesn't state that anywhere in your post.

I

n this particular match-up, I thought it'd be obvious that MK would strike Halberd with it being one of Luigi's best stages. Keep in mind MK does well on like every stage and so it comes down to not what he personally does best on by himself, but what works in the match-up and what the opponent wants. Halberd is great for Luigi so he'd want to strike it. Same with BF I think, I could be wrong. MK can just scrooge on SV and, from what I understand, Luigi has nothing to stop it. Even if he doesn't scrooge, he can camp the moving platform really well to his advantage. Most people should be striking SV against MK (Pierce elaborated on it better than I am right now).

This is what I've been trying to get it. Just because it's one of Luigi's best stage doesn't mean MK won't out perform luigi on the stage. As a Wario main I'd rather play MK on SV then BF. You first need to think of the use of platforms. A lot of characters are good on that stage however, MK Snake and Marth are better on that stage. They can use the platforms better camp the platforms better and just make it hell for people to attempt to approach them. With that said it is up to me to be able to break through their walls and be able to approach changing the stages will not make me better at the game. Adding more stages with gimmicks will not help me evolve as a player. First I need to learn the MU then stage. Then when I play I have to be able to adapt to my opponent and their character. Pick up on their patterns and then capitalize to immediately say that the stage list is the problem is wrong. Also I don't think any character has a response to MK planking , camping or scrooging. Just because a character out performs another character on a certain stage is no reason when character B can't win or player X can't over come this. Instead of instilling handicaps on players and trying to allow for fair play we should let players play and see how the metagame evolves. When this was allowed we saw players do well and characters grow from this.

You should
1) Read what I'm saying
2) Be open to more information
3) Realize that how X character does on a stage by himself isn't the only factor towards CPing or striking, match-ups and the opponent heavily influence this
4) Not argue for the sake of arguing
5) Not be so rude because you think someone disagrees with you. There's no excuse for that
6) Realize that I'm arguing that I fail to see how a 9 stage starter is necessarily better than a 7.
7) I'm pretty sure I've said this enough, but not CUSS OUT SOMEONE WHO HALF AGREES WITH YOU LOL

I don't even agree with a seven starter list but i'll take your points and consider them. If you want me to not mistake your post then be more clear about it. I also understand that the character in a given match influence the stage striking process. I also would like to know what character is hard countered by a diddy going to BF.

Oh, I'm honestly curious what the next tier list is going to look like, though.

I don't I don't what to see what non sense their trying to spew. Freaking they'd prob put Marth 3rd or something stupid like that.

 

[T-block]

Sigh...

With this ruleset, the stance we take is that stage adaptability is an important part of Smash. There is another school of thought that says stages should "interfere" with the match as little as possible. If you subscribe to that thought process, then none of the justification for this system is going to make any sense, so we can stop the argument, since it just comes down to difference in ideals.

I think arguing the reason for moving away from the 5-starter system is a lost cause. As I said, it comes down to school of thought - arguing over ideals doesn't get us anywhere.

We are operating under the idea that stage adaptability is one of the factors in deciding a character's viability. If we follow that idea...

it just comes down to difference in ideals.

Nothing really more to say.

 

[Flayl]

I really don't see the problem of fighting Diddy on BF game 1. if your character can't deal with him there it's because you're playing a bad character.

 

[Raziek]

AlmostLegendary, you really need to get away from the idea of "neutral" stages and get with the idea of "starter" stages. That's what this is about.

And Diddy IS artificially buffed by the smaller starter lists.

I'll try to lay it out as clearly as possible here. Diddy has been stated to have BF, FD, SV, and PS1 among his best stages.

A 5-starter stage list gives Diddy the ability to start on one of his BEST stages. This is clearly a disproportionate advantage when compared to other characters.

Let's say for example, we have a character that does extremely well on stages like Delfino, Halberd, Frigate Orpheon, and other stages with counter-picks tendencies, but are still starter stage material. If we had a stage list where 3 of those stages were starter, along with FD and SV, for example, this character would be ARTIFICIALLY buffed, because he gains the ability to start on a COUNTER-PICK. The idea of "neutral stages" needs to be moved away from. We build a starting stage list such that it distributes advantage evenly, not so that we play on only flat/plat stages with no hazards.

The goal of having 9 starters is to mitigate the advantage gained by any one character. Diddy is a great character, but his stage versatility is low, which hurts him overall. If Diddy is given the ability to start on a stage he would use as a COUNTERPICK, something is out of balance.

9 starters restricts his ability to start on a counterpick, but he still has control over WHICH of the additional "counterpick-esque" stages he wants to go to, since most (if not all) of his opponent's strikes will be used on FD, SV, BF or PS1.

Diddy is still a good character within the 9-starter system, because he still has a strong influence on 4 of the 9 stages that would be commonly used. The idea is to make it so that no character receives a counter-pick stage through stage striking, since the goal of stage striking is to get the FAIREST STAGE FOR THAT PATICULAR MATCH-UP. This doesn't mean the stage where the match-up is even, this means the median of bias between both characters.

As an aside, Meta-Knight becomes a huge problem because he has NO BAD STAGES. He becomes extremely powerful under any counter-picking system because he has the ability to remove your best stages with little concern for what stage he goes to. Strictly speaking, MK can counter-pick and stage strike offensively.

However, I don't believe the fact that a 5-list restricts MK (which it doesn't) is valid grounds to keep it. Meta-Knight is JUST another character. He deserves NO special treatment when compared to the rest of the cast. As such, the fact that he excels under this system is not a fault with the system, it's a fault with the CHARACTER. If this extreme advantage is enough grounds to ban him, there is no reason to be restricting him unfairly when compared to the rest of the cast.

We don't build the system such that we can keep him. We build the system such that it is FAIR, and if he is too powerful to fit within the system, he is bannable. Simple as that.

We don't build the system such that we can keep him. We build the system such that it is FAIR, and if he is too powerful to fit within the system, he is bannable. Simple as that.

Bolded, italics, underlined so that this paragraph is NOT MISSED.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

very nice post Raziek. While personally i try my best to practice on all start/cp stages, practicing on all said stages with what all 42 ish characters in this game is a challenging feat. But it makes me think pretty seriously about my characters best stages..

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Since I see the little Marth icon next your name does diddy get a boost from starter on BF against Marth? or Luigi? or snake ?or Mk? or Falco ? or ROb? or DK? or Ness? or Sheik? or Zelda? OR Fox? or Wolf ? or Kirby ?or Pikachu ?or Mario? Or Pitt ? or Lucario ? or Tlink ? or Ganon? Or Falcon ? Or Jiggly puff? or Bower? Or Lucas? Or Pokemon Trainer ? Or Olimar ?Or IC ? Or Peach? ok Ike ?or G&W ? or Link ? Or samus? Or Yoshi ? OR zSS ? IF so which character how and Why. If you can't t answer this or if the Majority of the cast is severely limited by going to BF then you'll prove your point however if that isn't the case you're wrong and just full of it.

Once again a true CP is MK on RC.

DK on Japes.

G&W or DK on Brinstar.

d3 on delfino.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

We don't build the system such that we can keep him. We build the system such that it is FAIR, and if he is too powerful to fit within the system, he is bannable. Simple as that.

False, actually... MK is not bannable. This has been shown several times. There are enough MKs in influential positions and otherwise that they can sit down and say "no" and the rest of the scene complies or dies.

 

[mb?]

how much lag was in the T.Vs at mlg

 

[Kole]

I think it was 1-2 frames.

(I've also heard up to 4, not sure if that's correct.)

 

[mb?]

I think it was 1-2 frames.

(I've also heard up to 4, not sure if that's correct.)

thats gay i ges i'll go play wifi to get use to the lag

 

[Raziek]

Since I see the little Marth icon next your name does diddy get a boost from starter on BF against Marth? or Luigi? or snake ?or Mk? or Falco ? or ROb? or DK? or Ness? or Sheik? or Zelda? OR Fox? or Wolf ? or Kirby ?or Pikachu ?or Mario? Or Pitt ? or Lucario ? or Tlink ? or Ganon? Or Falcon ? Or Jiggly puff? or Bower? Or Lucas? Or Pokemon Trainer ? Or Olimar ?Or IC ? Or Peach? or G&W ? or Link ? Or samus? Or Yoshi ? OR zSS ? IF so which character how and Why. If you can't t answer this or if the Majority of the cast is severely limited by going to BF then you'll prove your point however if that isn't the case you're wrong and just full of it.

Once again a true CP is MK on RC.

DK on Japes.

G&W or DK on Brinstar.

d3 on delfino.

You have an awful conception of what constitutes a counter-pick. A counter-pick is a stage where either your character performs better, or your opponent's character performs WORSE.

A stage does not have to be classified as "counterpick" to BE A COUNTERPICK.

If ICs take you to FD, that is A COUNTERPICK. REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THE STAGE IS CONSIDERED (falsely, I might add) "neutral". If you go to FD against the ICs with any character, they receive a MASSIVE buff. This makes FD a counterpick WHEN USED BY THE ICs.

The fact that I play Marth is irrelevant to this discussion, but for the sake of argument, I'll humor you.

Marth receives no special treatment within most 9-starter lists, the fact that he is versitile as a character is what makes him strong.

I'll outline a couple situations for you using my starter stage list that I often use, which is:

FD
BF
SV
YI
Lylat
PS1
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Castle Siege

Of this stage list, Marth does well on BF specifically, and then debatably Castle Siege, Halberd and maybe SV. However, Marth hates FD (except against MK), Lylat, Orpheon, and he doesn't REALLY mind YI or PS1.

In this list, Marth has 4 good stages, 3 bad stages, and 2 ok stages. THIS IS FAIR, because his opponent can strike his 4 best stages and Marth can then strike his 3 bad stages, and go to his choice of the OK stages. THIS IS FAIR.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You have an awful conception of what constitutes a counter-pick. A counter-pick is a stage where either your character performs better, or your opponent's character performs WORSE.

A stage does not have to be classified as "counterpick" to BE A COUNTERPICK.

If ICs take you to FD, that is A COUNTERPICK. REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THE STAGE IS CONSIDERED (falsely, I might add) "neutral". If you go to FD against the ICs with any character, they receive a MASSIVE buff. This makes FD a counterpick WHEN USED BY THE ICs.

The fact that I play Marth is irrelevant to this discussion, but for the sake of argument, I'll humor you.

Marth receives no special treatment within most 9-starter lists, the fact that he is versitile as a character is what makes him strong.

I'll outline a couple situations for you using my starter stage list that I often use, which is:

FD
BF
SV
YI
Lylat
PS1
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Castle Siege

Of this stage list, Marth does well on BF specifically, and then debatably Castle Siege, Halberd and maybe SV. However, Marth hates FD (except against MK), Lylat, Orpheon, and he doesn't REALLY mind YI or PS1.

In this list, Marth has 4 good stages, 3 bad stages, and 2 ok stages. THIS IS FAIR, because his opponent can strike his 4 best stages and Marth can then strike his 3 bad stages, and go to his choice of the OK stages. THIS IS FAIR.

Marths' worst stage on that list is Frigate. Also Marth doesn't hate Final D or Lylat. He preforms extremely well on all of those stages minus the first part of transformation of Frigate.

 

[Reizilla]

No. Marth hates FD, except against M, in which case, he'll hate all the stages he's normally good at. Lylat isn't hate, but it's below OK. Halberd is match-up dependant. And both YI and PS1 are basically no-buff for him. If it weren't for the ledge, Frigate would be in the same class as YI.

 

[Raziek]

no. Marth hates fd, except against m, in which case, he'll hate all the stages he's normally good at. Lylat isn't hate, but it's below ok. Halberd is match-up dependant. And both yi and ps1 are basically no-buff for him. If it weren't for the ledge, frigate would be in the same class as yi.

thanks rei <3

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

No. Marth hates FD, except against M, in which case, he'll hate all the stages he's normally good at. Lylat isn't hate, but it's below OK. Halberd is match-up dependant. And both YI and PS1 are basically no-buff for him. If it weren't for the ledge, Frigate would be in the same class as YI.

Why does Marth hate FD ?

What makes Lylat below OK?

What makes Halberd MU dependent and lets say not fd ?

YI Has that middle platform which Marth can use to his advantage. The blast zones on the edge also help Marth. He can zone and control that stage extremely well.

PS1 dtilt locks against the walls. Blast Zones on the shortern on the edge. Stage has platforms.

Like seriously what makes these stages bad Marth ?

 

[ShadowLink84]

On second thought, no need for a wall of text. I am rather done trying to argue with people who have already made up their mind.
Or people who keep repeating the same thing over and over while ignoring what is told to them.

 

[Kole]

Yet, with that last line, you still need to have the last word in the argument.

 

[AvaricePanda]

why do people keep saying PS1 is one of Diddys best stages lol. The stage is kinda large to control which means a lot of characters can just camp him, and like all the transformations are pretty bleh for him. Sure he has banana locks but those only happen when the opponent is dumb; there's more of a chance of me regular infiniting someone with the SNL infinite than there is me setting up a banana lock IMO. And even so, most characters can abuse the stages better than Diddy can. The grass one is meh, the water one is meh, the fire one is meh, the earth one sucks lol, and most characters like MK and Wario can just time us out and we can't do much about it.

PS1 isn't bad necessarily but it isn't one of his best stages. I'd honestly rather go to Halberd any day than go to PS1 against most characters.

@Almost, I thought my last sentence summed up what I was trying to say, maybe it was a little unclear, but still:

You're assuming you're right on all of those stages, I'm honestly not trying to, but you're like saying I'm pulling things out of my *** when I suggest that Yoshi's is the best "neutral" as far as neutrals are concerned, and then you cite gimmicks as to why Yoshi's is bad/good for some characters. Fox's wall shine nonsense? Doesn't come up as a major factor in his match-ups on that stage; most Foxes would much rather go to BF, FD, or SV first round probably. Just because Lucario can wall cling doesn't mean it's his best stage strong CP omfg, it just means I guess I'll strike it against him. DK's upB glitch and Toon Link's D-smash thing? I guess I'll just be wary of that, but I'd probably rather take them to Yoshi's than BF.

again, I don't know about most characters at a high level and could be wrong at a lot of things. However, it seems like you don't know most characters at a high level but you're assuming you're right about everything. For your reasoning of Marth being good on PS1, "the stage has platforms and he can D-tilt lock". Doesn't constitute a good stage for a character. You aren't right about everything and the mains of the respective characters probably know more than you do on how a character does on a stage.

Gimmicks don't make a stage good for a character, though.

and SamuraiPanda is the Snake main from Michigan. I'm a Diddy main from Indiana (and want the Panda dropped from my name lol)

edit: Oh, and

it just comes down to difference in ideals.

 

[Raziek]

Why does Marth hate FD ?

What makes Lylat below OK?

What makes Halberd MU dependent and lets say not fd ?

YI Has that middle platform which Marth can use to his advantage. The blast zones on the edge also help Marth. He can zone and control that stage extremely well.

PS1 dtilt locks against the walls. Blast Zones on the shortern on the edge. Stage has platforms.

Like seriously what makes these stages bad Marth ?

Marth hates FD because there are no platforms to abuse, and the lip is janky.

Lylat is below ok because the ledge can occasionally mess with our recovery, and the platforms aren't SUPER-optimal, but they're alright.

Halberd is MU dependent because certain people destroy us there. Read: Anyone with good vertical kills like Snake, Fox, etc.

FD is MU dependent, since certain match-ups are good for us here, like Wario or MK. However, as a whole, it is bad.

Yi was listed as medicore because the platform isn't super amazing for us. U-tilt doesn't always penetrate it completely, and we get camped hard if opponents get underneath it. In addition, the slant slightly messes with spacing/auto-cancelling.

No opponent is stupid enough to get d-tilt locked on PS1, and the transitions where that are possible are Rock and Fire, which both turn into camp fests/wall-infinites. The platforms are inconsistent during the transitions, and we don't have the platform **** that we did in melee, so we're merely alright. We hate PS1 for recovering, and none of the transitions benefit us.

Try harder.

 

[T-block]

I like PS1 as Diddy... the neutral layout is very comfortable. I think I like it better than BF.

 

[Flayl]

What characters are we catering to when we don't want Diddy to play on BF? Can somebody answer this?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

@Almost, I thought my last sentence summed up what I was trying to say, maybe it was a little unclear, but still:

You're assuming you're right on all of those stages, I'm honestly not trying to, but you're like saying I'm pulling things out of my *** when I suggest that Yoshi's is the best "neutral" as far as neutrals are concerned, and then you cite gimmicks as to why Yoshi's is bad/good for some characters. Fox's wall shine nonsense? Doesn't come up as a major factor in his match-ups on that stage; most Foxes would much rather go to BF, FD, or SV first round probably. Just because Lucario can wall cling doesn't mean it's his best stage strong CP omfg, it just means I guess I'll strike it against him. DK's upB glitch and Toon Link's D-smash thing? I guess I'll just be wary of that, but I'd probably rather take them to Yoshi's than BF.

I understand this however, all of these things gives these characters more options more options = more mix up = more potential.

again, I don't know about most characters at a high level and could be wrong at a lot of things. However, it seems like you don't know most characters at a high level but you're assuming you're right about everything. For your reasoning of Marth being good on PS1, "the stage has platforms and he can D-tilt lock". Doesn't constitute a good stage for a character. You aren't right about everything and the mains of the respective characters probably know more than you do on how a character does on a stage.

Once again it gives Marth more options and more mix up potential. Platforms are good for Marth because he uses them extremely well. The wall adds another option to Marth's game that can make a read or a miss tech into a potential stock loss it also cut downs a lot of the of the stage and gives Marth the ability to control that little bit of stage that you're avoiding so you won't get dtilt locked with his fair and nair and dtilt.
Gimmicks don't make a stage good for a character, though.

and SamuraiPanda is the Snake main from Michigan. I'm a Diddy main from Indiana (and want the Panda dropped from my name lol)

Ah I see I got you guys confused I'm sorry.

Marth hates FD because there are no platforms to abuse, and the lip is janky.

The lip is very janky and the lack of platforms does take away from his game a little bit however that's not enough for Marth to hate the stage. However after playing on the stage for five minutes that shouldn't happen to you anymore. Although mistakes are made.

Lylat is below ok because the ledge can occasionally mess with our recovery, and the platforms aren't SUPER-optimal, but they're alright.

Marth can attack through the platforms with utilt. I don't see how the platforms aren't optimal it's basically another BF. Also you should be able to recover fine on this stage it a lot worse for a lot more characters.

Halberd is MU dependent because certain people destroy us there. Read: Anyone with good vertical kills like Snake, Fox, etc.

FD is MU dependent, since certain match-ups are good for us here, like Wario or MK. However, as a whole, it is bad.

So both stages are MU dependent more or less. However, wouldn't that mean that halberd becomes a legit Marth CP against anyone with out a good upward Killer ? So aren't you saying the stage isn't truly bad for Marth but the MU's which that determine when the stages become good or bad ?

Yi was listed as medicore because the platform isn't super amazing for us. U-tilt doesn't always penetrate it completely, and we get camped hard if opponents get underneath it. In addition, the slant slightly messes with spacing/auto-cancelling.

Can't Marth camp under that platform just as well if not better than the Majority of the cast? If you're given up central stage control as Marth aren't you doing something wrong ?

No opponent is stupid enough to get d-tilt locked on PS1, and the transitions where that are possible are Rock and Fire, which both turn into camp fests/wall-infinites. The platforms are inconsistent during the transitions, and we don't have the platform **** that we did in melee, so we're merely alright. We hate PS1 for recovering, and none of the transitions benefit us.

This is true I do not expect an opponent to get dtilt locked on Ps1. I do however expect an opponent to be aware of this fact and then have to change his play style in order to avoid this. When we keep this in mind you as a Marth now gain a huge advantage in stage control. Can apply more pressure on your opponent and if you get a good read or take advantage of a mistake you can get the dtilt. You should be able to recover fine on ps1. It's not just ps1 but lylat and final D also. If you're not recovering fine on those stages then just take 5 minutes and practice it and you'll recover perfectly fine on those stages. Marth's recovery auto sweet spots the ledge so if you're missing the ledge or dying to the lip of final D then you're doing something wrong.

 

[Raziek]

I understand this however, all of these things gives these characters more options more options = more mix up = more potential.



Once again it gives Marth more options and more mix up potential. Platforms are good for Marth because he uses them extremely well. The wall adds another option to Marth's game that can make a read or a miss tech into a potential stock loss it also cut downs a lot of the of the stage and gives Marth the ability to control that little bit of stage that you're avoiding so you won't get dtilt locked with his fair and nair and dtilt.
Gimmicks don't make a stage good for a character, though.



Ah I see I got you guys confused I'm sorry.



The lip is very janky and the lack of platforms does take away from his game a little bit however that's not enough for Marth to hate the stage. However after playing on the stage for five minutes that shouldn't happen to you anymore. Although mistakes are made.



Marth can attack through the platforms with utilt. I don't see how the platforms aren't optimal it's basically another BF. Also you should be able to recover fine on this stage it a lot worse for a lot more characters.



So both stages are MU dependent more or less. However, wouldn't that mean that halberd becomes a legit Marth CP against anyone with out a good upward Killer ? So aren't you saying the stage isn't truly bad for Marth but the MU's which that determine when the stages become good or bad ?



Can't Marth camp under that platform just as well if not better than the Majority of the cast? If you're given up central stage control as Marth aren't you doing something wrong ?



This is true I do not expect an opponent to get dtilt locked on Ps1. I do however expect an opponent to be aware of this fact and then have to change his play style in order to avoid this. When we keep this in mind you as a Marth now gain a huge advantage in stage control. Can apply more pressure on your opponent and if you get a good read or take advantage of a mistake you can get the dtilt. You should be able to recover fine on ps1. It's not just ps1 but lylat and final D also. If you're not recovering fine on those stages then just take 5 minutes and practice it and you'll recover perfectly fine on those stages. Marth's recovery auto sweet spots the ledge so if you're missing the ledge or dying to the lip of final D then you're doing something wrong.

Regardless of what you want to argue in terms of specific stages, you're still missing the point. No matter what the match-up, Marth will NOT START ON ONE OF HIS CPS, like Diddy does now.

 

[AvaricePanda]

More options don't matter if the options are mediocre.

For example, Fox's wall shine thing (could you elaborate on that btw). Whatever. He can't illusion on the stage at a good height because he has to go high enough to not hit the little ramp near the ledge, which makes it more punishable when he lands at the middle. If he hits the little ramp, that's also really punishable. But despite that, the platform height doesn't help him much at all. It almost sounds like you're assuming all platforms are the same and they aren't; whereas this one gets in the way more than anything (Fox doesn't have good options when he's on a platform, this platform isn't low enough for the most part to U-smash below it, and his options are like SH F-air and U-air, both of which are okay but not unique to the stage), the platforms on BF are a better height for him for auto-cancels between platforms and the main stage with his aerials.

The platforms on BF are also longer and take up more of the stage than PS1's platforms. While Marth can use the BF platforms to zone better and control more space, the PS1 platforms aren't as big, so he can't take advantage of them as much. As far as the D-tilt locks go, on both of those transformations he can do that you can just run away. On the earth transformation, you can just stay in one of the other "pit" things, and Marth won't want to approach because it means he has to approach from the top, which is a big disadvantage. Fire transformation is kind of the same way. Yes he has D-tilt locks, but if the transformation layouts themselves don't help Marth (which is more of an influence than something easy to avoid) then it's not the best stage for the character.

I'm just taking Raziek's word for it that the transformations don't help him, and I can see why.

edit: still, why is a 9 stage starter better than a 7 stage one, and why is Delfino a stage on the 9 stage starter instead of Frigate?

 

[Gnes]

This is interesting... I think it'd be interesting to get a poll going to see how many people actually think like this (not being sarcastic... maybe there's more than I thought).

But let me ask you this... what are Diddy's top 5 stages in general, if he's only mediocre on BF/SV?




You're missing the point. BPC shouldn't have said "bad character". We are operating under the idea that stage adaptability is one of the factors in deciding a character's viability. If we follow that idea, then it's not that Diddy is in reality a bad character; it's more he's not as good as the 5-starter system makes him (ie- artificially buffed).

Top 5 would definitely be matchup dependent...but in general i guess I would say

FD
Ps1(this stage is pretty unexplored as of now, but its my main cp in every matchup)
Pictochat(flat just like FD, with the occasional hazards that dont really hurt diddy. Because of gimmicks is relatively unexplored)

Then after that imo hes just average on the others. This is not to say hes bad on these stages, just that he doesnt "excel" on them either.

Truly my only issue with the ruleset is when AZ said its no point in trying to create a stage list that caters to weakening mk, because regardless mk would still prove to be dominant overall. That logic makes me cringe.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Regardless of what you want to argue in terms of specific stages, you're still missing the point. No matter what the match-up, Marth will NOT START ON ONE OF HIS CPS, like Diddy does now.

So you're going to tell me that you've never CP BF or SV as Marth?

More options don't matter if the options are mediocre.

Yeah this is true the option of a dtilt wall lock however, isn't mediocore.

For example, Fox's wall shine thing (could you elaborate on that btw). Whatever. He can't illusion on the stage at a good height because he has to go high enough to not hit the little ramp near the ledge, which makes it more punishable when he lands at the middle. If he hits the little ramp, that's also really punishable. But despite that, the platform height doesn't help him much at all. It almost sounds like you're assuming all platforms are the same and they aren't; whereas this one gets in the way more than anything (Fox doesn't have good options when he's on a platform, this platform isn't low enough for the most part to U-smash below it, and his options are like SH F-air and U-air, both of which are okay but not unique to the stage), the platforms on BF are a better height for him for auto-cancels between platforms and the main stage with his aerials.

Umm I think the wall thing is just fox wall shining his opponent next to a wall. Also are you talking about fox or Marth when I was talking about abuse of platform I meant marth.

The platforms on BF are also longer and take up more of the stage than PS1's platforms. While Marth can use the BF platforms to zone better and control more space, the PS1 platforms aren't as big, so he can't take advantage of them as much. As far as the D-tilt locks go, on both of those transformations he can do that you can just run away. On the earth transformation, you can just stay in one of the other "pit" things, and Marth won't want to approach because it means he has to approach from the top, which is a big disadvantage. Fire transformation is kind of the same way. Yes he has D-tilt locks, but if the transformation layouts themselves don't help Marth (which is more of an influence than something easy to avoid) then it's not the best stage for the character.

The platforms don't have to be huge for marth to be able to abuse it. The Hit box on Utilt covers the majority of the platform on Ps1. As long as there's a platform marth can make use of it. The transformation layouts don't hurt Marth either. Also if you're control Zone and spacing properly your opponent shouldn't be able to get into those areas while on Ps1. if they do you wait for the transformation to end then you have control over the stage once again. I don't see how this is bad.

I'm just taking Raziek's word for it that the transformations don't help him, and I can see why.

edit: still, why is a 9 stage starter better than a 7 stage one, and why is Delfino a stage on the 9 stage starter instead of Frigate?

This I can't answer I don't think a 9 starter stage list is good I don't think a 7 starter stage list is good. I don't think Delfinio or Frigate should be a starter stage stage.

 

[T-block]

The more stages the better. There's no reason to say "seven stages is good enough" when you can go to nine. If we could strike from all legal stages, it would lead to the fairest stage for a certain matchup (within a given ruleset) assuming both players strike properly. That can't happen because of time constraints, so we add as many stages as possible. Unfortunately, which stages we add is where things start to get subjective. Frigate is a decent candidate, but the general consensus is that it's more polarizing than Delfino I guess. The lack of ledge does hurt a lot of characters if their opponent is not similarly affected.

I also think starter stages should be limited in the randomness because of the importance of the first match, but that's not on everyone's criteria list apparently.

 

[Reizilla]

If you think utilt is Marth's primary use for abusing/controlling platforms, you shouldn't be talking about Marth. I have a very slight hint that you didn't learn anything in the whole time that you tortured the Marth boards.