SmashBoards Letter to SSB4 Development team.

[Kink-Link5]

And balanced roster.

What defines balance is dependent on skill level. Most players are scrubs and think Ike and Roy are overpowered.

And better online.

I disagree that this is something that should be the focus of the game. The heart of fighters is in the player vs player interaction. Any amount of lag, which is inevitable when looking at online gameplay, makes a difference in the game, and online pales in comparison to the much more important gameplay that takes place in-person. Online should only be looked into as an afterthought once the core game itself is completed.

And better competitive treatment. (Online ranking for example)

Clearly this is not the case for casual fans, who don't care how other people play the game as long as they can throw a sticky bomb at Yoshi.

The only thing every player can agree on is that tripping is dumb and the analog nature of Smash is what defines it, though at the casual level, "analog nature" is simplified into "feels right to play," without really knowing why it is so.

 

[Life]

I'll go ahead and make the argument.

Assuming we're talking SSB4 relative to Melee: L-canceling should be removed. It does not add any depth or decision making to the game; it is simply a technical barrier designed to keep new players from being able to step up. Every other example of techskill in the game is a decision (e.g. wavedashing, everything spacies do); there is no situation in which you do not want to l-cancel. Aerials should have their l-canceled lag naturally. The result would be more accessibility to bring in new players to the competitive scene (a good thing, I think we all agree) without significantly changing the game at higher levels of play.

Relative to Brawl, just get rid of tripping and airdodging/attacking out of hitstun early. Even if Melee airdodge isn't brought back, and we have no reason to think it will, those two changes alone would make Brawl dramatically better.

 

[stelzig]

i'll be honest i probably shouldve focused on wavedashing in my post because im not really familiar with l canceling. but in the videos i've seen of wavedashing, it doesnt appear to me that it was meant to be in there. if they made it look more like a legitimate technique and not like an exploit in the next smash bros, then i would agree to its inclusion. But to make the game melee 2.0 just to include it? i think its a step backward.

I'm pretty sure none of the people who want stuff like wavedashing cares one bit about how it looks. Why should it even matter if they changed it to look more intended? Like ok fair enough, but just because the mechanics visuals is changed slightly, it doesn't suddenly not make it a step backwards...

(It wouldn't be a step backwards either way, but clearly anyone who requested its return, did not request the visuals to neccesarily be the same lol. If that is all you want, then this is the easiest compromise ever)

wavedash doesnt really have much uses in melee anyway...

What?

 

[Vkrm]

I'd rather have laggy air attacks than auto l canceling. That way shield pressure isn't given to everybody for free. Maybe they should try fixing dd and wd to put an emphasis on ground control. Maybe like sf where jump attacks are hardly ever a good tool to approach with.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'll go ahead and make the argument.

Assuming we're talking SSB4 relative to Melee: L-canceling should be removed. It does not add any depth or decision making to the game; it is simply a technical barrier designed to keep new players from being able to step up.

What an ignorant and uninformed, biased, and painfully incorrect statement.

The timing for an L-cancel can drastically differ based on how the opponent angles their shield, sidesteps, or gets hit normally. It isn't as simple as automatic per-programmed muscle memory.

 

[Shadow Huan]

I'll go ahead and make the argument.

Assuming we're talking SSB4 relative to Melee: L-canceling should be removed. It does not add any depth or decision making to the game; it is simply a technical barrier designed to keep new players from being able to step up. Every other example of techskill in the game is a decision (e.g. wavedashing, everything spacies do); there is no situation in which you do not want to l-cancel. Aerials should have their l-canceled lag naturally. The result would be more accessibility to bring in new players to the competitive scene (a good thing, I think we all agree) without significantly changing the game at higher levels of play.

Relative to Brawl, just get rid of tripping and airdodging/attacking out of hitstun early. Even if Melee airdodge isn't brought back, and we have no reason to think it will, those two changes alone would make Brawl dramatically better.

about L-canceling; if you can tech you can l-cancel. the timings are pretty close. L-canceling is not hard to learn once you know what the basic timing is.

if brawl had L-canceling as is, it'd probably be more defensive, but at least characters like Ganondorf and Link wouldn't be absolute ****

[i

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

about L-canceling; if you can tech you can l-cancel. the timings are pretty close. L-canceling is not hard to learn once you know what the basic timing is.

if brawl had L-canceling as is, it'd probably be more defensive, but at least characters like Ganondorf and Link wouldn't be absolute ****

Not to mention L-cancelling had it's own bio on the official Smash Bros site years ago before the whole Dojo thing started, it went under the name "smooth landing". So it was intentional, L-cancelling was never a glitch and neither was wavedashing.

 

[kisamefishfries]

add lcanceling, remove infinite airdodges. bring back hitstun and combos... bring back melee

this is SSB4 not SSBM2 alright? Keep your bi-ism out of this and think what would actually make the game better for everyone not just you.

 

[StriCNYN3]

I'll go ahead and make the argument.

Assuming we're talking SSB4 relative to Melee: L-canceling should be removed. It does not add any depth or decision making to the game; it is simply a technical barrier designed to keep new players from being able to step up. Every other example of techskill in the game is a decision (e.g. wavedashing, everything spacies do); there is no situation in which you do not want to l-cancel. Aerials should have their l-canceled lag naturally. The result would be more accessibility to bring in new players to the competitive scene (a good thing, I think we all agree) without significantly changing the game at higher levels of play.

I feel you never really played Melee for yourself and just got info from a clueless random from a forum. No depth or decision making? You have to take into consideration your opponent's heavy and light shield, the direction they shield, your opponent's hit stun, and the platform you're on. Take that away and the spacies will be cracking shields like there's no freaking tomorrow.

And I guess you never heard of ledge canceling either. Not only is it better than L canceling at given moments, if you try to L cancel at those times, you'll air dodge and leave yourself open to be punished or possibly kill yourself. Also, If you time certain aerials right, like Falco's bair for example, you can auto cancel it.

Smash 4 should be its own game, but you shouldn't remove mechanics from past games that could possibly benefit the new game, especially when you don't even know all the facts behind it.

 

[Vkrm]

The argument that brawl is more cerebral then melee is both untrue and Ridiculous. The game with fewer options and softer punishment for bad choices is more technical? Okay, what ever you say....

 

[Black Mantis]

I feel that if a letter were written it would come from a bunch of whiny melee players.

"Boo hoo brawl wasn't exactly like it's predecessor and we want smash 4 to be like Melee/Brawl+/Project M or whatever crap the hackers make in a week."

Sakurai has already stated that he's sticking with the brawl formula, but it's interesting to see what Namco will bring to the table. I trust Namco and Nintendo over a bunch of hackers who had to make Brawl like Melee.

 

[Linnom]

Geez, this thread became another Melee vs. Brawl discussion...

 

[Vkrm]

Brawl vs project m more like. I think the pm devolpment team did something amazing. They have a much deeper understanding of what makes smash fun.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I feel that if a letter were written it would come from a bunch of whiny melee players.

"Boo hoo brawl wasn't exactly like it's predecessor and we want smash 4 to be like Melee/Brawl+/Project M or whatever crap the hackers make in a week."

Sakurai has already stated that he's sticking with the brawl formula, but it's interesting to see what Namco will bring to the table. I trust Namco and Nintendo over a bunch of hackers who had to make Brawl like Melee.

What a surprise; a Brawl player is being rude and intentionally ignorant about other games and opinions that aren't his or her own.

 

[Phaazoid]

I don't think this is a good idea. I don't think there is anything that they won't do already in a smash game that the community is close enough together on to send. We have to be at least like 85% for something.

 

[Black Mantis]

The evidence speaks for itself.

 

[Vkrm]

What evidence? Not sure what you mean bro.

 

[Black Mantis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z07CzxeXMVs

when stuff like this happens in Brawl, people still say its bad game. Camping happens in every game just saying. That's my complaint. How this relates to smash 4 is that I hope that defensive options aren't as broken as Melee's. Melee has its share of issues too.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Aerials should have their l-canceled lag naturally.

People need to stop using terms like this and "auto L-cancelling", what you're looking for is just "lower landing lag". There's no L-Cancel because the Melee/Brawl -esque higher landing lag values are never there in the first place.

 

[~automatic]

Brawl vs project m more like. I think the pm devolpment team did something amazing. They have a much deeper understanding of what makes smash fun.

The P:M have an understanding of how to insert Melee's physics into Brawl and make it balanced for a 1v1 scenario in the competitive scene. Something that isn't as fun as vBrawl for everyone (competitive players included).

What a surprise; a Brawl player is being rude and intentionally ignorant about other games and opinions that aren't his or her own.

He's being realistic. Melee players are going to ask for something that doesn't represent what everyone in the site wants. Not to mention the differing demands of Brawl players and casuals. Other than eliminating tripping we'll never reach an agreement on many things. Smash is such a factioned series it's ridiculous. We are only a Smash community because we share a common discussion forum.

 

[Vkrm]

If smash 4 is built from the ground up to be like melee there won't be anyone really upset. My opinion is that ssbb is only played cause it's the newest smash and all brawl***'s are actually graphic *****s.

 

[Vkrm]

For real!!! I can't say *****s? What the ****!

 

[~automatic]

Yeah, the word filter on this site is ****ing dumb, lmao.

 

[Black Mantis]

I guess we can all agree that censorship ducks sick.

 

[Life]

I do enjoy being called clueless, you know. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

The variance in timing of a cancel caused by light shielding etc. has nothing to do with my argument. Spacies OP without it? That can be fixed. I don't know what ledge cancelling is? Where do you come up with this stuff?

(And to the other guy, I never called l-canceling a glitch. I'm not ignorant.)

I am simply saying that unlike basically every other mechanic in the game, l-canceling is not a decision. To clarify what I mean by "decision", there is no situation in which you do not want to l-cancel. Ever. So why bother including it?

@jackpot: tomayto, tomahto. As long as people know what other people are talking about...

 

[Kink-Link5]

Why bother including hitstun canceling? That **** should just happen automatically; it's just an arbitrary input that's gimmicky and causes a technical barrier for those who can't do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z07CzxeXMVs

when stuff like this happens in Brawl, people still say its bad game. Camping happens in every game just saying. That's my complaint. How this relates to smash 4 is that I hope that defensive options aren't as broken as Melee's. Melee has its share of issues too.

When this happens in Brawl, it occurs in more than 1% of matches and on legal stages.

 

[jigglover]

A lot of people are saying a melee 2.0, but being a predominately brawl player, while still liking lots of mechanics from Melee, I think we should just go with the majority and say a Melee 2.0, and now discuss mechanics from Brawl we should keep, and mechanics from melee to remove.

I'll start by saying that L-cancelling should not come back, and auto-grab should return.

 

[Vkrm]

Dashdance, moonwalk, and MAD for me plz. Light shield as well.

 

[Red(SP)]

A lot of people are saying a melee 2.0, but being a predominately brawl player, while still liking lots of mechanics from Melee, I think we should just go with the majority and say a Melee 2.0, and now discuss mechanics from Brawl we should keep, and mechanics from melee to remove.

I'll start by saying that L-cancelling should not come back, and auto-grab should return.

So you want the game to be purposely slow?

The developers could always add a light tint aesthetic to distinguish if the technique is being used correctly.

 

[jigglover]

So you want the game to be purposely slow?

The developers could always add a light tint aesthetic to distinguish if the technique is being used correctly.

I just find L-cancelling easily spammable and un-smash-like.

 

[Vkrm]

What would you consider smash like? Floatyness? Tripping? I consider all of brawl to be un smashlike.

 

[R2_GP]

-.....as far as we know, we cannot(officially) use GC controllers.



That's basically the problem.....i don't think wii u controler will be ment to hyper-responsive controller inputs like in melee

 

[Vkrm]

There might be 3rd party trollies.

 

[jigglover]

What would you consider smash like? Floatyness? Tripping? I consider all of brawl to be un smashlike.

Floatyness is an attribute specific to certain characters, and gives balance, so that is smash-like, and TRIPPING IS AWESOME! tripping is a swing in the miss, it would be mockery if it is in smash 4.

 

[Vkrm]

All the chars in brawl seem floaty to me. Not to mention brawl isn't as balanced as melee. Also I really hate the sacrifice of character variety to achieve balance. It's an idea that's so bad there is no way it's not sakurai's.

 

[jigglover]

I don't think you're giving Sakurai enough credit, but anyway... Balance is still pretty good, I mean, you have meta-knight for one, and then zelda (which you can easily transform into sheik.) That's it really (for me anyways.) I like captain Falcon, so Ganondorf is a slower him, and I'm rather impressive with Link I think. He's my fifth guy and I beat 3 9's with him a lot.

 

[Vkrm]

.................uh




Well played sir.

 

[Black Mantis]

Have you seen Fox in Melee?

 

[satowolf]

All the chars in brawl seem floaty to me. Not to mention brawl isn't as balanced as melee. Also I really hate the sacrifice of character variety to achieve balance. It's an idea that's so bad there is no way it's not sakurai's.

Wait....what?

 

[Vkrm]

Melee is more balanced than brawl. I agree that fox has the most potential of any melee char, but he's not an auto win button like mk. Let me ask you, have they ever banned a melee character?