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SmashBoards Letter to SSB4 Development team.

Vkrm

Smash Lord
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A game should be hard to master. Instead making combos and wd easier for people who think practice is a dirty word, they made it impossible for pros and noobs alike........ Can somebody tell me Why in the name of **** is sakurai so well liked as a director?

:phone:
Because every smash game has been his, they all sell well so s far as nintendo is concerned sakurai is needed for them to make money.

:phone:
 

Luco

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A game should be hard to master.
In an ideal world, yes. However, as we push forward in to an age where more and more people play video-games, develops have to begin to appeal to the casual crowd. It takes balance and skill to make a game cater to both. The thing is, there are way more casual players than competitive players in this world and they generate more money than we do. it makes sense that develops rarely take the risk nowadays and make harder games. The ones that do usually make it as bonus content (*coughcoughSuperMarioGalaxycoughcough*).

As much as it would be nice to have the depth that melee had, we have to accept that Sakurai is going to also want to cater to the casual crowd. Even though we have tripping, he does make (some) effort to have a game that at the very least can be played competitively.

While he's not perfect, he's the only person that is willing to appease our nerdy appetites to see all these Nintendo and popular gaming characters come together and interact with one another. That's why i imagine he is liked and respected, because when he originally made SSB 64 he had the genius thought to include popular nintendo characters as fighters rather than creating new ones. Thus why Smash bros. is one of the most popular fighting series. Not quite as big as street fighter, Tekken and Mortal Kombat but almost every teenage/young boy will know of it and half or so girls will.
 

Kirbunny431

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
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For the love of...don't start this again! Too many threads have already been contaminated and killed by this pointless debate.

:phone:
 

Luco

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For the love of...don't start this again! Too many threads have already been contaminated and killed by this pointless debate.

:phone:
Haha, i'm sorry, I don't post as regularly on these threads as I did on the old one. Didn't mean to start up an argument that's happened before, my friend. ^^

I'd also ask for more taunts for some characters. I want to see some characters smile as part of their taunts. Some more, I mean.
 

Kirbunny431

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
437
Haha, i'm sorry, I don't post as regularly on these threads as I did on the old one. Didn't mean to start up an argument that's happened before, my friend. ^^
Quite all right, my good Smasher! It's hard to avoid adding fuel to a fire. (Especially dry leaves! I love burning dry leaves.) I wouldn't say you started it, though. That honor can be attributed to Vkrm and/or a couple others, really.

I'd also ask for more taunts for some characters. I want to see some characters smile as part of their taunts. Some more, I mean.
Indeed! The characters need to be happier over all, really. I just woke up, actually, so I can't think of any good ideas for "happy taunts," but I know exactly what you mean.

This is going to sound stupid, but Sakurai should learn from the hacking scene's work with all three previous titles and just let us unlock whatever the successors are to the Alloys. Sure, they suck. But some people like to play around with 'em. And the consumers are eventually going to, no matter what it takes.

Hell, maybe they should even leave some elements of the debug mode in, and allow us to create our own event matches and things of that nature, and share them with friends. That was something I liked to do with Melee's debug menu, and I'm sure others did too.
That would be really neat, actually. Maybe not give us access to the debug features, but perhaps create a versatile event match creation system that behaves exactly like the Debug Menu or its SSB4 equivalent. Select players, their size, their form (metal, invisible, etc.), stage, time, and such. The possibilities would be endless.

Also, I'm all for unlockable Alloys. That would be, excuse me for using an overused word, sweet.
 

Luco

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I know of a lucas happy taunt. two, actually. One is where he gets energy (like his other taunt) but then thrusts his fingers up in to the air and smiles.

The other is like a block (or 'no deal' sign if you watch 'Deal or No Deal') and he grins fiercely.
 

Vkrm

Smash Lord
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Wouldn't it be cool if you grabbed somebody holding an item, stole it and then used it onthe enemy you took it from?

:phone:
 

Vkrm

Smash Lord
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I was not aware of that. I almost dont believe it. Was this back before items were banned and hyrule was the only stage people played on?

:phone:
 

Vkrm

Smash Lord
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They banned him because of how stale brawls meta became. Every top player had a pocket mk. Most games have variety with each member of the cast having different strengths. Cept mk. He literally does everything better than everybody.... Balance is kind of a big deal i guess but it doesnt matter unless controls are satisfying. Lots of games have good balance and are fun, why didnt brawl do either?Brawls a joke.

:phone:
 

Ember Reaper

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
424
They banned him because of how stale brawls meta became. Every top player had a pocket mk. Most games have variety with each member of the cast having different strengths. Cept mk. He literally does everything better than everybody.... Balance is kind of a big deal i guess but it doesnt matter unless controls are satisfying. Lots of games have good balance and are fun, why didnt brawl do either?Brawls a joke.

:phone:
Just play low tier characters. All the more sweeter when you win.
I prefer not to play with characters above marth, dunno why. I prefer the lower tiered characters
 

Baskerville

That's a paddlin'
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Every top player had a pocket mk
Your ignorance is simply outstanding. Its obvious that you hardly know anything about the scene or the players for that matter
Leon
Glutonny
Mekos
Mr. R
Salem
ESAM
quiKsilver
Will
Brood
Earth
I could go on forever. The Top players here have done well in national & regional tournaments and have never once switched to MK, so before you try to spout out garbage get your facts straight first.
 

Vkrm

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,194
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Your ignorance is simply outstanding. Its obvious that you hardly know anything about the scene or the players for that matter
Leon
Glutonny
Mekos
Mr. R
Salem
ESAM
quiKsilver
Will
Brood
Earth
I could go on forever. The Top players here have done well in national & regional tournaments and have never once switched to MK, so before you try to spout out garbage get your facts straight first.
This doesn't prove anything. If I were to make a list about how many people have abused mk to win sets my list would longer. Would that make me right? Ill be honest, I quit brawl in 2010 to focus on melee so I don't expect anyone to take me as seriously as like m2k for example. I guess i shouldnt coment on the metagame of a game i left behind years ago. The thing of it is though that when people post about how they think melee is more broken than brawl, well, at that point I have no choice. Before you flame me let me just say that brawl players are cool, it's the game that's trash.

:phone:
 

~automatic

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I wouldn't take M2K seriously unless you paid me, lmao. Dude's a ****ing tard.

Can somebody tell me Why in the name of **** is sakurai so well liked as a director?
Sakurai also directed Kid Icarus: Uprising, Beetle King (huge arcade game in Japan) and created the Smash and Kirby franchises which he directs as well. Dude's resume is definitely one of gaming's best imo. Btw, I like how you replied to yourself, lol.

Balance is kind of a big deal i guess but it doesnt matter unless controls are satisfying.
A huge part of Smash's appeal is the simplicity of it's controls. Melee had the same 2 button scheme as Smash 64 and Brawl. You only want Melee's speed and AT's which is understandable since technical proficiency and reflexes are needed to play high Melee (which is spectacular) but if that's the only allure Smash has for you then well prepare to be disappointed by Smash 4.

This thread was doomed from the start.
OP's folly was believing everyone wanted the same things s/he did. You're not going to get that in a game with so much variety of gameplay preferences and skill levels such as Smash.
 

El Duderino

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
570
IOP's folly was believing everyone wanted the same things s/he did.
It's also unrealistic to expect a written letter to carry much weight.

The best possible attempts to get Sakurai's attention have already been made. Nothing says "fix this' quite like the community pouring thousands of hours into tailoring the game to their liking. Brawl+, Balenced Brawl and Project M are without a doubt the most substantial critiques this community has to offer. It's the type of detailed constructive criticism the developers could really benefit from analyzing. Not the painfully obvious suggestions that will undoubtedly make up this open letter.
 

Kirbunny431

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
437
It's also unrealistic to expect a written letter to carry much weight.

The best possible attempts to get Sakurai's attention have already been made. Nothing says "fix this' quite like the community pouring thousands of hours into tailoring the game to their liking. Brawl+, Balenced Brawl and Project M are without a doubt the most substantial critiques this community has to offer. It's the type of detailed constructive criticism the developers could really benefit from analyzing. Not the painfully obvious suggestions that will undoubtedly make up this open letter.
I agree. The only thing we could really do is try to bring those mods to the devs' attention, if they don't know about them already.
 

Vkrm

Smash Lord
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Messages
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It's also unrealistic to expect a written letter to carry much weight.

The best possible attempts to get Sakurai's attention have already been made. Nothing says "fix this' quite like the community pouring thousands of hours into tailoring the game to their liking. Brawl+, Balenced Brawl and Project M are without a doubt the most substantial critiques this community has to offer. It's the type of detailed constructive criticism the developers could really benefit from analyzing. Not the painfully obvious suggestions that will undoubtedly make up this open letter.
I've been thinking this same thing. Although if the GCN was as mod friendly as wii there might have been a whole bunch of people trying to mess with stuff like balance and glitches in melee. I wonder if sakurai even knows about pm. Does he feel offended that there is a whole community attempting to improve his game? He's probably feel like his game is being violated and that theres nothing wrong with brawl and it needs no enhancement. It's hard to argue with how popular pm got so fast though. If it were me I'd be happy as hell people found more ways to enjoy the game.

:phone:
 

Kirbunny431

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
437
I've been thinking this same thing. Although if the GCN was as mod friendly as wii there might have been a whole bunch of people trying to mess with stuff like balance and glitches in melee. I wonder if sakurai even knows about pm. Does he feel offended that there is a whole community attempting to improve his game? He's probably feel like his game is being violated and that theres nothing wrong with brawl and it needs no enhancement. It's hard to argue with how popular pm got so fast though. If it were me I'd be happy as hell people found more ways to enjoy the game.
Sakurai doesn't seem like the kind of person to have a vendetta against game mods. Although I don't think he realizes that everyone (save for me and I'm sure a good amount less-vocal individuals) holds a bitter grudge against him for Brawl's physics and balance. That is assuming he's ever heard of any of this Brawl modding business.
 

~automatic

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It's also unrealistic to expect a written letter to carry much weight.

The best possible attempts to get Sakurai's attention have already been made. Nothing says "fix this' quite like the community pouring thousands of hours into tailoring the game to their liking. Brawl+, Balenced Brawl and Project M are without a doubt the most substantial critiques this community has to offer. It's the type of detailed constructive criticism the developers could really benefit from analyzing. Not the painfully obvious suggestions that will undoubtedly make up this open letter.
Agreed. But you get hella +1's in this thread so it's all buena.
 

El Duderino

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
570
I wonder if sakurai even knows about pm.
Of course he does, along with the other big mods. It's unimaginable to think the series creator is not attentive to what is trending in his own games' community. Even in the very unlikely scenario he has not been following, there is surely staff on the payroll that are. I don't see how they can possibly avoid discussion of the mods throughout SSB4's development cycle.

Does he feel offended that there is a whole community attempting to improve his game?
Perhaps if he felt Brawl was perfect as is and any deviation would be destroying the game. All Sakurai's interviews suggests he's too critical of his own work to let something like this upset him. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the community getting high praise, aside from the knee jerk reactions, for many of changes they made has left him feeling a bit uneasy. Lets hope it'll just drive him to make an even better game in the future and not get hung up on past decisions.
 

RomanceDawn

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The best thing we could have asked for is already under way. Asking for a seasoned fighting game developer to make the game, unlike Brawls team.

:phone:
 

Muz

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
167
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Clifton NJ
OP's folly was believing everyone wanted the same things s/he did. You're not going to get that in a game with so much variety of gameplay preferences and skill levels such as Smash.
No, OP's folly was that he thought that the people on this forum would constructively work together, look past their differences, and develop ideas they would agree on. Instead we have people arguing about Melee vs Brawl, flaming/trolling, and just going off topic at every opportunity.

It's also unrealistic to expect a written letter to carry much weight.

The best possible attempts to get Sakurai's attention have already been made. Nothing says "fix this' quite like the community pouring thousands of hours into tailoring the game to their liking. Brawl+, Balenced Brawl and Project M are without a doubt the most substantial critiques this community has to offer. It's the type of detailed constructive criticism the developers could really benefit from analyzing. Not the painfully obvious suggestions that will undoubtedly make up this open letter.
You're right that a written letter won't carry much weight, but at the same time these mods are not universally accepted. Why not try to determine things that most everyone agrees would make the game better, and then figure out the best mechanism of delivering these ideas to the developer?

..."happy taunts" ...

...a versatile event match creation system...

...unlockable Alloys...
These are excellent ideas that I think most people would agree would be nice to have, or in the very least, will not be opposed to seeing them in the next Smash. Thank you for your constructive post.
 

Kirbunny431

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
437
These are excellent ideas that I think most people would agree would be nice to have, or in the very least, will not be opposed to seeing them in the next Smash. Thank you for your constructive post.
Heh. You're welcome. They weren't really my ideas, though.
 

El Duderino

Smash Ace
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Messages
570
You're right that a written letter won't carry much weight, but at the same time these mods are not universally accepted.
Attempting to be universally accepted is exactly what makes this proposed open letter lack conviction. Also, it's not like something has to be unanimously loved to make an impact.

Why not try to determine things that most everyone agrees would make the game better, and then figure out the best mechanism of delivering these ideas to the developer?
Because by the time you filter out the contested opinions all that is left is obvious suggestions and trivial requests. An open letter is a poor vehicle to get the developers attention for so little. They are either already adressing it or have their own separate priorities. It's just repetition for them, minus the constructive specifics they'll get looking at the mods.
 

Muz

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Attempting to be universally accepted is exactly what makes this proposed open letter lack conviction. Also, it's not like something has to be unanimously loved to make an impact.

Because by the time you filter out the contested opinions all that is left is obvious suggestions and trivial requests. An open letter is a poor vehicle to get the developers attention for so little. They are either already adressing it or have their own separate priorities. It's just repetition for them, minus the constructive specifics they'll get looking at the mods.
Ok, lets first start at a place where we both agree: We want to see the next Smash Brothers game improved, in general polish, fun, and in competitiveness.

Now lets try to be constructive to this common goal. Something more than just "this idea is bad and won't work," but actual ways to make this shared dream real.

If you believe the ideas presented so far all either 1)contested, 2)obvious, or 3)trivial, then I challenge you to come up with better ones. Here are just two ideas already presented that I believe are not contested, obvious, or trivial:
-give a game option to make items appear only after they display where they will appear for a few seconds. Would this really be contested as its an option to turn on or off? Its not obvious, otherwise it would have been in Melee/Brawl. And its not trivial because it makes competitively using items possible.
-preload transformation characters. Who would contest this? If its obvious, then why didn't Brawl have it? Its not trivial because it makes playing characters like PT and sheik/zelda very different.

If you believe that an open letter is a bad way to present these ideas, I challenge you to come up with a better way to present them. Do you think a video presentation could be effective? How about someone trying to talk to the development team at a conference?
Saying that the Brawl mods are the most effective constructive criticism doesn't mean that we can't try to influence the next Smash in other ways.
 

Vkrm

Smash Lord
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I pray everyday for official alternate costumes. An ingame tool for playing with color palates would be cool too. Also training mode needs a record option to test what combos are possible and see how you should di stuff.

:phone:
 

Kirbunny431

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
437
I pray everyday for official alternate costumes. An ingame tool for playing with color palates would be cool too. Also training mode needs a record option to test what combos are possible and see how you should di stuff.

:phone:
What do you mean by "official alternate costumes?" Like Dr. Mario for Mario?

Indeed, a color palette tool would be neat. Mr. Game and Watch wouldn't have much to play around with, though. :troll:

Recording training mode sessions would be pretty cool as well. Not a feature I would take advantage of, but it could come in handy for others.
 

Robert of Normandy

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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What do you mean by "official alternate costumes?" Like Dr. Mario for Mario?

Indeed, a color palette tool would be neat. Mr. Game and Watch wouldn't have much to play around with, though. :troll:
Indeed, a color edit mode would be friggin' sweet, even if I personally never used it.

Recording training mode sessions would be pretty cool as well. Not a feature I would take advantage of, but it could come in handy for others.
This, and also the ability to record any single player match.
 

El Duderino

Smash Ace
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Messages
570
Ok, lets first start at a place where we both agree: We want to see the next Smash Brothers game improved, in general polish, fun, and in competitiveness.
Sure we agree, but improving the competitiveness of smash is not a universally accepted goal. There's no way to be all inclusive while expressing those concerns we want addressed in the next tittle.

Something more than just "this idea is bad and won't work," but actual ways to make this shared dream real.
Shared dream? That's a pretty fantastical way to describe these obvious bug fixes, common sense changes, and invidual wants. There's a million "Wouldn't it be cool if...?" requests we could agree on and write in. That's great, everyone has their own ideas, but it won't make for a very focused letter addressing the real issues. At that it's still likely to be largely redundant telling the devs what they already know, or find its way into the fanmail bin.

If you believe that an open letter is a bad way to present these ideas, I challenge you to come up with a better way to present them.
Make your own Mod or build your own fan game... I never said it would be easy. Or better yet just trust that the developers are not stupid and that the Smash community has already done plenty to get their attention representing a wide assortment of interests.
 

Muz

Smash Apprentice
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I pray everyday for official alternate costumes. An ingame tool for playing with color palates would be cool too. Also training mode needs a record option to test what combos are possible and see how you should di stuff.
Great ideas!

Definitely yes to more costumes (like the different wario costumes), as well as more color swaps. The idea to create your own custom color/textures is awesome as well, I hope that gets added.

An Advanced Training Mode with a record feature would be... sweet! I definitely would love to be able to program a computer to do a specific combo, then see if I could break out of it. Or program the computer to react a certain way to my combo's on it, to see if I can follow through. That would improve the metagame so quick. Maybe this idea should be combined with Tiberious' Debug menu idea, so that we can see individual attack/move frames as well as hit boxes and invincibility frames (sort of like Action Replay with Melee, but built right into the game)

This, and also the ability to record any single player match.
What do you mean record any single player match? Matches over 3 minutes, or things like multiman brawls? Either way, seems like an easy add that would make the game more enjoyable.
 

Kink-Link5

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Because the digital generation are masters of miscommunication, avoidance, and passive-aggressivism. One-sided, non-verbal communication is no substitute for a genuine conversation regarding the way things are. If it were that easy, companies wouldn't still have business meetings. The fact is, things get done better with personal communication. You get behind a screen and everyone is an INTERNET TOUGH GUY.
 

Robert of Normandy

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What do you mean record any single player match? Matches over 3 minutes, or things like multiman brawls? Either way, seems like an easy add that would make the game more enjoyable.
I mean basically everything in single player. Classic mode(maybe on a per-stage basis), Multi-man mode, HRC, Target Test, the whole works. Also, 3 minute + replays are a must as well.
 

Tiberious

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That would be really neat, actually. Maybe not give us access to the debug features, but perhaps create a versatile event match creation system that behaves exactly like the Debug Menu or its SSB4 equivalent. Select players, their size, their form (metal, invisible, etc.), stage, time, and such. The possibilities would be endless.

Also, I'm all for unlockable Alloys. That would be, excuse me for using an overused word, sweet.
Here I thought nobody would reply to my post. Feels like that's been par for the course 'round here.

Anyway, I specifically said 'successor' because I know that whatever the 'Zako' team will be this time, I'm 99% sure they won't be the Alloys. That tradition's too strong to break. Funny thing is, the Alloys have been the most strongly-nerfed 'enemy' fighters yet. While the Polygons couldn't grab or throw, even they could still use the ledges. All the Wireframes lacked was the ability to charge their non-item Smashes.



Also, I think a major component of the 'Event Match Creator', aside from what you listed, would be allowing you to choose the Offense and Defense Ratios for both the CPU and the player. These would need explained, of course, so you don't end up with people making it so that the player has 3.0 offense and the CPU has 3.0 defense (which cancels out, obviously).

Further, I wouldn't mind being able to add the 'corps' option, where you could designate a list of fighters (or random, within a list) to come in, in succession. Think like the old Polygon match.
 

Kirbunny431

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
437
Here I thought nobody would reply to my post. Feels like that's been par for the course 'round here.
Aw. Well, it was a good idea. I'm surprised you didn't get more responses.

Anyway, I specifically said 'successor' because I know that whatever the 'Zako' team will be this time, I'm 99% sure they won't be the Alloys. That tradition's too strong to break. Funny thing is, the Alloys have been the most strongly-nerfed 'enemy' fighters yet. While the Polygons couldn't grab or throw, even they could still use the ledges. All the Wireframes lacked was the ability to charge their non-item Smashes.
Yeah, I'm just used to calling them the Alloys. I'm also pretty sure that they won't be coming back next time. Gosh, I never knew they were so weak. They're still my favorite-looking Zako team, though.

Side-note, I think it'd be cool if you could select the Zako team as opponents, too. Then again, if you can unlock them, I guess there isn't any worry about that.

Also, I think a major component of the 'Event Match Creator', aside from what you listed, would be allowing you to choose the Offense and Defense Ratios for both the CPU and the player. These would need explained, of course, so you don't end up with people making it so that the player has 3.0 offense and the CPU has 3.0 defense (which cancels out, obviously).
Indeed! That would also really come in handy. I would be one of the people in need of an explanation, actually. Heh. I still don't know how offense and defense ratios work.

Further, I wouldn't mind being able to add the 'corps' option, where you could designate a list of fighters (or random, within a list) to come in, in succession. Think like the old Polygon match.
I've always wanted to do something like that. That'd be really cool. Kind of like the last Co-Op Event Match in Brawl, right?
 
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