Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Raichu is the one that eventually grew up and, in the process, ended not being a Toys R Us Kid, meanwhile, both Pikachu and Pichu are still in the kids even when past thier prime. They don’t let the inner childish glow diminish.

 

[Darkraid]

Skull Kid I could see but I still think Geno is a hard sell and better off as base roster or promotional freebie.

Oh come on. What better way to generate income?

Step 1. Give hope that fan fav will be in Smash (Ridley, K Rool)
Step 2. Keep speculation flowing by saying that there will be few chars making it as base.
Step 3. Surprise everyone by revealing one of the most requested char as DLC.

PROFIT

 

[TheMilkmann]

So, we all basically know each other's most wanted fighters. But what about echoes?
Who's your most wanted Echo?

I want Roll as an echo of Mega Man, as a fun reference to Marvel VS. Capcom.

Dark Bowser or Midbus for Bowser

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I really believe that Nintendo is saving chars for DLC. Think about it. They gave us Ridley and Rool to hype us up. Given the response of smash 4 dlc, they will do something better. Why not hype dlc with Geno and Skull Kid?

Because Sakurai can hype us up with...an 8th, 9th, and 10th Fire Emblem newcomer

 

[Deleted member]

So I’ve been thinking about how cool Leon Kennedy would be, but I always have trouble imagining a move set for him that works for Smash, mainly because of realistic guns. I’m not saying it’s impossible to come up with a move set based on Resident Evil mechanics, but I’m personally stumped on how Sakurai would make it work if he did add Leon. Do you have any ideas on how he could work?

Probably something like this,

3-hit jab: Leon punches his opponent and then slices his opponent with his trademark knife.
Dash Attack: Leon charges at the oppenent. Think Jill's MVC2 Hype Move, but without the flashy effects.

Tilt Attacks:
Forward Tilt: Pistol Fire. Leon fires his pistol at his opponent like in the Resident Evil games.
Up Tilt: Leon fires his Shotgun upwards.
Down Tilt: Leon does a low leg sweep.

Arieal Attacks:
Neutral Arieal: Leon stabs forward with his knife.
Foward Arial: Leon again fires his pistol forward.
Back Aerial: Leon throws a grenade backwards, exploding at any foes behind him.
Up Aerial: Leon fires his pistol upwards, this time with the upgrade that makes it fire really fast from RE2.
Down Aerial: Leon fires a Rocket Launcher downwards. This is most effect aerial move.

Smash Attacks:
Forward Smash: Leon's signature kick from RE4.
Up Smash: Leon primes a grenade, and then throws it overhead at his opponent as it explodes.
Down Smash: Leon kicks downwards at his opponent, like Ganandorfs kick.

Specials:
*IMPORTANT NOTE* Leon's Neutral B and Special B have Ammo counters, meaning that they can only be used a maximum number of 5 times before it runs out. You will need to reload them using the Ammo selection with the Down B move. This is a reference to Resident Evil's focus on Item Management.
Neutral B: Grenade Launcher. Leon will launch three types of Grenades from the Grenade Launcher. Normal Grenades will ground the opponent (when the opponents are stuck in a hole), Incinerary Grenades will explode created a large fire that engulfs the opponent like Ness's Side B or Simon's Down B, and Flash Grenades will stun the opponents like Zero Suit Samus's Neutral B. Normal, Incinerary, and Flash Grenades are colored Green, Red, and Blue respectively.
Side B: Flamethrower. Leon fires the Flamethower. Like Bowser's and Charizard's Neautral B, but with greater range.
Up B: Desperate Leap. Leon launches himself upwards as he reaches for recover. Does not do damage, but has excellent recover to make up for it.
Down B: Item select. In line with Resident Evil's focus of item management, Leon can choose from three types of items; Herbs, Ammo, and Upgrades.
Herbs will restore 10% of Leon's health, Ammo will reload the ammunition need for his specials, and Upgrades will boost his attack power with firearms (any move that uses Pistol, Shotgun, Grenades, and Flamethrowers). These items also have limited uses, and can be used up to 3 times.

Final Smash: Titan Onslaught. Leon's Final Smash involves the Titan boss from RE2 appearing out of the ground and brutally attacking the opponent. While the Titan is busy attacking them, Leon will pull out his Rocket Launcher from RE4 saying "Game Over!", then fires at both the opponent and the Titan, finishing them off both.

Grab Attacks:
Pummel: Leon pistol whips the opponent.
Forward Throw: Leon preforms the move used to escape from zombies grip in the RE series.
Back Throw: Leon places his foot on the opponents chest, and throws them backwards.
Up Throw: Leon uppercuts his foe into the air.
Down Throw: Leon throw his opponent to the grow, and finishes them with a Grenade throw.

Other:
Appearance: His default outfit is his RE4 outfit, but his RE2 is an alternate costume.
Idel Animation: Leon will reload his Pistol like he does in RE4.
Taunt 1: "What's the matter? Scared?" Leon will twirl his knife as he says this.
Taunt 2: Leon will point his Pistol at his opponent as shout "Freeze!".
Taunt 3: Leon will say "Monsters. After this there'll be one less to worry about."
Whew. making a moveset for Leon was hard, but here is my best attempt.

 

[Noipoi]

Raichu is the one that eventually grew up and, in the process, ended not being a Toys R Us Kid, meanwhile, both Pikachu and Pichu are still in the kids even when past thier prime. They don’t let the inner childish glow diminish.

I'm totally gonna be a Pikachu when i'm an old and crusty 25 year old. i'm never letting go of my childhood!

 

[Idon]

Raichu is the one that eventually grew up and, in the process, ended not being a Toys R Us Kid, meanwhile, both Pikachu and Pichu are still in the kids even when past thier prime. They don’t let the inner childish glow diminish.

I'm sorry what? What's all this existentialism about?

 

[NapoleonDos]

Context is VERY important here.

When Sylux was making waves in the speculation scene, most people didn't think a non-Smash 4 port Smash game would come out as soon as Ultimate is. Most thought it'd be years away, after Prime 4 would make Sylux highly relevant. Most thought Sakurai's stance on Ridley was cemented with Smash 4, and Dark Samus being canonically dead made people think she wouldn't have a future in the series, and as such, not be on Sakurai's radar. With all that in mind, people went to Sylux.

It's easy to scoff at history with the benefit of hindsight, but it's also lazy, as it's, purposely or not, ignoring the context in which those claims were made.

I don't think this shows the context of Smash Bros history- it shows the history of the speculation. Scene jumping to conclusions based on "evidence."

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

I meant no to cutting F.L.U.U.D, not the other stuff

They could at least give it an upgrade... like the ability to clean up this mess :

 

[CosmicQuark]

The only way a character would be saved for DLC is at best because that's how a company wants it. And for dead IP's, there is logic behind that being part of the deal. Sakurai might not really care about the money factor like businesses do, but it's still something to keep in mind. Characters like Geno and Banjo & Kazooie would make Square-Enix and Microsoft the most money as DLC. So it's not a bad reasoning for them to want it that way. Besides that, both characters aren't the easiest ever to create, so them taking a lot more time would make this work out. You could justify Geno somewhat using the Mii Gunner to speed up time, but that's kind of it. B&K don't have anyone to help as a base, so...

I never understood this point, though, so perhaps you could clarify. Most people, from what I've seen, say Steve is likely for the base, and B&K are likely DLC. In the same breath, they'll say Minecraft is more popular/relevant and B&K will make a lot of money for Microsoft as DLC. Wouldn't it be reversed then? If Steve is more popular, it would make sense as DLC, if DLC was for the "money-makers", while the base would be for characters who wouldn't make as much.

Personally, I don't think characters are "saved" for DLC, or that DLC makes companies any more money than being in the base--otherwise all third party companies would like to save their characters for the base--I'm sure the companies are getting plenty of royalties for being in the base. But if we assume it's the case anyways, who would be the big money-makers--Steve or Banjo? I feel like it creates a double standard, rather than reflecting which character is better suited for which.

 

[RandomAce]

Isn’t Pit supposed to be the all around fighter?

When Pit was mentioned to be a charcater for beginners I saw people saying that he wasn’t, but looking back at it, he does.

He is considered to be the “honest” character in terms of play style. He doesn’t have anything super gimmicky or overpowered, nor does he have any main weakness to drag him down.

Not only that, but Pit has multiple jumps and a large recovery. Allowing newbies to be able to get on stage more easily. All of his moves also correlate to the direction of the attack as well, (Up Tilt has Pit attacking upward, etc) allowing people to not get confused like with the other characters where sometimes their moves have different attributes.

So yeah, Pit is a good example of a more all around character, and is good character for beginners to get into. A little small talk.

 

[Idon]

I don't think this shows the context of Smash Bros history- it shows the history of the speculatio. Scene jumping to conclusions based on "evidence."

Well that's the spirit of speculation. You can only really form predictions things given your current data and past precedence.
If we knew everything, we wouldn't even be speculating to begin with would we?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

They could at least give it an upgrade... like the ability to clean up this mess :

As long as the Inklings don’t get hit by the water

 

[ZenythSmash]

Fitting that we went from Wii Fit Trainer, an aerobics instructor to Dr. Mario who checks to see how healthy you are.

Spoiler

He isn't even a licensed doctor BTW.

there's a reason why this is a alternate costume...

 

[NapoleonDos]

Fitting that we went from Wii Fit Trainer, an aerobics instructor to Dr. Mario who checks to see how healthy you are.

Spoiler

He isn't even a licensed doctor BTW.

It's health and sports day in Japan!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I never understood this point, though, so perhaps you could clarify. Most people, from what I've seen, say Steve is likely for the base, and B&K are likely DLC. In the same breath, they'll say Minecraft is more popular/relevant and B&K will make a lot of money for Microsoft as DLC. Wouldn't it be reversed then? If Steve is more popular, it would make sense as DLC, if DLC was for the "money-makers", while the base would be for characters who wouldn't make as much.

Personally, I don't think characters are "saved" for DLC, or that DLC makes companies any more money than being in the base--otherwise all third party companies would like to save their characters for the base--I'm sure the companies are getting plenty of royalties for being in the base. But if we assume it's the case anyways, who would be the big money-makers--Steve or Banjo? I feel like it creates a double standard, rather than reflecting which character is better suited for which.

Steve? already makes money for Microsoft. He alone does it via merchandise. They don't need him as DLC as is to make tons of money. He does by virtue of his active game alone. B&K don't have that option. They can't make extra money off of him via base game sales alone. They're getting paid extra royalties for B&K to license, but also per every download. It also doesn't tell them that people are interested in the character. It just tells them they like the base game.

People keep asking for a revival of the series. By making them DLC, they can outright gauge how popular they really are. Or at least far better than base game stuff. Here they will see how often the character is downloaded. Even in a bundle, it still implies some interest in the character.

Popularity isn't all that's important with DLC. Sometimes you need to look more at business. How do you make money off of your dead IP? DLC it in a way that it's going to be a big seller. Dead franchises can often work better as DLC. Base game tends to work better for characters who aren't in the general public eye to begin with. Even B&K are. Steve? is too, but they don't need him as DLC to make money off the IP. They aren't making much off of B&K as base.

 

[NapoleonDos]

Well that's the spirit of speculation. You can only really form predictions things given your current data and past precedence.
If we knew everything, we wouldn't even be speculating to begin with would we?

What we're discussing is "running with the claims of the consensus" versus thinking for ourselves.
The latter isn't done enough, and Smash speculation proves it well, even better in hindsight.
Maybe we could all use a little bit better foresight, instead.

That is the point. There aren’t that many interesting characters left out there besides the usually suspects. There is a lot of potential for echos but not a lot for some of the new characters besides a couple.

Uh...just use a little imagination man.

Hm, how did this become a double post...

 

[Danpal65]

Maybe we could all use a little bit better foresight, instead.

So what I'm hearing is we should be a bit more like Mythra?



Rex & Pyra as DLC for sure

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

While I really haven't had the chance to comment today (this is it), I wanted to hop in and piggyback off of something said, pages, and pages, and pages, and pages, and pages, and pages, and pages, and pages, and pages, and pages ago. (lel)

Somebody mentioned that everybody here should take some time and "get a hobby". I do somewhat agree with that, not because I think you guys don't have lives (I'm here, and I have a life), but because it will legit make the wait go by soooooooo much faster. You don't even know.

So today, my father came over to help me work on a few housing projects in my house (painting, prepping rooms for getting floors refinished), and I didn't even think of Smash for like a good 4 hours. I checked back here to see if anything came up, and nothing did. But then I went to a relatives house. Then, when we got back, I played Mario Party and unlocked Donkey Kong.

It's not so much that people need to get lives as much as it is finding things that you can find an escape it,be it with friends, family, or just on your own.

Rewatching the previous Directs can help too. Watching reaction videos sometimes strikes my fancy, as I like to see fellow fans gets excited like I did. I mean really, between my teaching job, my massive vidya backlog...oy. I just finished Shadow of the Tomb Raider (pretty good tbh), and still have two full Kingdom Hearts games to play before I'm done. I have Mega Man 11 to play, as well as Torna: The Golden Country, and more recently Assassin's Creed Odyssey.

Now, that's not the norm for everybody, but like I said. If you find ways to take up your time and distract yourself/get lost in something, the time between now and the next Direct will seem like absolutely nothing.

For real though, when we do get this direct I want it to give us all a break from this and give us our base roster entirely. People can get their salt out of the way and get hyped, or even start their social media campaigns for whatever character they want as DLC, just like I did for Snake, or @BKupa666 did for King K. Rool, or @Opossum did for Chrom. Hopefully we hear about it soon and can get it over with, before we get anymore theories to clog everything up.

It's never too early to begin a DLC campaign.

Anybody up to start a Joker for Smash DLC campaign?

I'd also totally join a Eudel for Smash campaign. I will obviously participate in a Sora for Smash campaign as well, assuming he's not in base.

 

[Exalt4747]

What we're discussing is "running with the claims of the consensus" versus thinking for ourselves.
The latter isn't done enough, and Smash speculation proves it well, even better in hindsight.
Maybe we could all use a little bit better foresight, instead.

Mythra confirmed.

EDIT: curse you loading

 

[Idon]

What we're discussing is "running with the claims of the consensus" versus thinking for ourselves.
The latter isn't done enough, and Smash speculation proves it well, even better in hindsight.
Maybe we could all use a little bit better foresight, instead.

But people are thinking for themselves. Just as many people found Sylux unlikely as people found him possible at best. Only certain people formed certain predictions and those predictions get tossed around and discussed. It's not like you can get an entire website to agree on what's plausible and what's impossible.

You're painting everyone speculating to be some sort of collective hivemind that jumps on the earliest half-baked theory when no, there's plenty of skeptics and cynics for even the most believable of concepts.

No one could've known that Smash Ultimate would be announced so soon, and once it did get announced, almost everyone stopped the Sylux train. What you're asking in terms of foresight is ridiculous. Like yeah sure, we all should've predicted Smash would release 2 years after 4 and made all our discussion revolve around that train of thought.

 

[Deleted member]

It's never too early to begin a DLC campaign.

Anybody up to start a Joker for Smash DLC campaign?

I'll start campaigns for:
Skull Kid
Sylux
Rex and Pyra
Leon Kennedy
Dante
Kazuma Kiryu
SMT Protaonigsts
Sora
Bill Rizier
Ryu Hayabusa
Doomguy
In other words, a lot of people lol

 

[WolfCypher]

I'll hitch my star to Xenoblade's Rex in a heartbeat.

I liked XB2 a little too much.

 

[MaestroDavros]

Somebody mentioned that everybody here should take some time and "get a hobby".

Er, tell them that Smash is a hobby.

Maybe not their kind of hobby, but I think it definitely qualifies as one.

 

[Noipoi]

I'm about to start an Ashley for Smashley twitter.
Don't worry, i'll absolutely shill it.

Spoiler

Noipoi 64

 

[StarLight42]

I stand by my post but as for your comment I replied to earlier:

...but then what is it about FLUDD in Smash you didn't like? In your post, you didn't make it sound like you disliked FLUDD as a move compared to Mario Tornado/Dr. Tornado, you worded it like you just don't like FLUDD in general.

I don't like it as a move, in case I didn't word it clearly. It should do damage I feel. There's actually a custom move in Smash 4 that can do that, but the range is horribly poor.

Is Mario really such a basic character though? I think he was intended to be that way back in like Smash 64, but in effect in modern Smash, he's one of the game's main combo monster characters, and definitely newer/weaker players more often have an easier time utilizing good range instead of good frame data with Mario being a character with pretty stubby limbs but exceptional frame data. I think how straightforward most of his moves are even while being the type of moves better tuned to advanced than beginner players is actually well complemented by having a complex move without straightforward utility but some indirect utility like FLUDD.

I also look at Smash as a fighting game first, and I don't think it's important for games to be "represented" so much as characters just kinda remind you of what they were outside of Smash while functioning as well as possible, and I think Mario's moveset is very effective from that perspective.

That's true, i'm not denying that adding FLUDD to his moveset was a bad thing in terms of competitive play at all, I just prefer the Mario Tornado myself.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I was thinking yesterday that we knew the roster before the US Brawl was released thanks to an early Japanese release. I still remember the ROB ragefits that went down back then. And we knew the Smash 4 roster plus some earlier editions thanks to leakers and a probably canned ESRB worker. But we knew next to nothing about DLC additions save for Mewtwo which was officially revealed and Ryu/Roy thanks to ineptness on Nintendo’s part. But Cloud, Bayonetta, Corrin, and maybe even Lucas blindsided most of us and I am sure Roy and Ryu would had have the similar effect. DLC content didn’t seem to get leaked out that much from what I could tell.

Leaks have become more numerous with the notion that you can get 15 minutes of lolz via YouTube videos made by braindead baboons. But sprinkled within some leaks are truth and we all know the difference between legit and fake leakersz

I’m the point I’m trying to make is that perhaps Sakurai and Nintendo is playing some 4D chess and maybe saving some surprises for DLC while clamping down on it to make the surprises that more surprising. Especially considering every9’e will be newcomers.

Can you imagine the hype of having zero leak information and a Direct drops without any smash announcement and BOOM! A non-leaked character.

Though that was then and this is now and leaks seem to be on the forefront of any Ultimate Discussion.

 

[Danpal65]

That's true, i'm not denying that adding FLUDD to his moveset was a bad thing in terms of competitive play at all, I just prefer the Mario Tornado myself.

Watch the double posts there mate. Edit in your second post to the first if you want to comment in succession.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Some more fresh footage from Big House 8:

Pretty cool to see some Ridley vs Charizard There's a few more recently uploaded videos on this channel.

I'm about to start an Ashley for Smashley twitter.
Don't worry, i'll absolutely shill it.

Spoiler

Noipoi 64

Nice avatar.

 

[osby]

It's never too early to begin a DLC campaign.

Anybody up to start a Joker for Smash DLC campaign?

I'd also totally join a Eudel for Smash campaign. I will obviously participate in a Sora for Smash campaign as well, assuming he's not in base.

Why not? I don't have huge hopes for it, but it's worth a try, as long as we keep it civil.

 

[ZenythSmash]

Yeah, completely ignore how Zeraora fights more like Wolf than Lucario.

Lucario and Mewtwo are the same body type.
Does that mean Lucario should be an Echo of Mewtwo?

you may have a point...

 

[Radical Bones]

Man, this video is great:

Making fun of YouTubers who cover leaks.

 

[ZenythSmash]

It's possible though that through promotion for Metroid Prime 4 he may get in through DLC but I'd rather him be a boss alongside Kanden, Noxus, Trace, Spire and Weavel which you fight all at once.

It'd still be in a good way to promote the character technically speaking if they do that.

oh its still possible. hopefully on time too.
but i'll never get the notion that he would be in first due to an pending Metroid Prime game we don't have enough info on...

 

[CosmicQuark]

I was thinking yesterday that we knew the roster before the US Brawl was released thanks to an early Japanese release. I still remember the ROB ragefits that went down back then. And we knew the Smash 4 roster plus some earlier editions thanks to leakers and a probably canned ESRB worker. But we knew next to nothing about DLC additions save for Mewtwo which was officially revealed and Ryu/Roy thanks to ineptness on Nintendo’s part. But Cloud, Bayonetta, Corrin, and maybe even Lucas blindsided most of us and I am sure Roy and Ryu would had have the similar effect. DLC content didn’t seem to get leaked out that much from what I could tell.

Leaks have become more numerous with the notion that you can get 15 minutes of lolz via YouTube videos made by braindead baboons. But sprinkled within some leaks are truth and we all know the difference between legit and fake leakersz

I’m the point I’m trying to make is that perhaps Sakurai and Nintendo is playing some 4D chess and maybe saving some surprises for DLC while clamping down on it to make the surprises that more surprising. Especially considering every9’e will be newcomers.

Can you imagine the hype of having zero leak information and a Direct drops without any smash announcement and BOOM! A non-leaked character.

Though that was then and this is now and leaks seem to be on the forefront of any Ultimate Discussion.

Sakurai is definitely play four dimensional chess, and if what Verge says is true, there are characters being used as leaker bait, to pinpoint any potential sources of leaks. So, I definitely think there are characters that haven't been leaked--I'm just concerned as of late that it may not be the case for the base, given what has been rumored, and how much time is left. I'm still uncertain, though, at what stage DLC is being worked on.

 

[Iridium]

I never want to end Knuckles, but as you see here, it's possible. Well, still haven't seen a deconfirmed Tails yet.

 

[StarLight42]

I never want to end Knuckles, but as you see here, it's possible. Well, still haven't seen a deconfirmed Tails yet.

Tails is on Green Hill. But so is Knuckles, and he's also an AT.

 

[Iridium]

Some more fresh footage from Big House 8:

Pretty cool to see some Ridley vs Charizard There's a few more recently uploaded videos on this channel.



Nice avatar.

Most Valuable Gaming? Yeah, they have a lot of Ultimate footage. I even showed off their Rage 2018 Summer VoDs, but they got deleted...

Which reminds me, it's gonna be good seeing M2K come back for Ultimate, when it releases of course.

Tails is on Green Hill. But so is Knuckles, and he's also an AT.

It's still fair game to me as long as it isn't acknowledged.

 

[Idon]

Big takeaway from this is:
Link's new bombs?
Kinda hard to use in 1v1 settings.

 

[SonicMario]

I never want to end Knuckles, but as you see here, it's possible. Well, still haven't seen a deconfirmed Tails yet.

Tails should be still possible. He has been spotted in Green Hill Zone's background in the demo but I don't think that's strong enough. Cause if he WAS missing from this old stage (It'd be a different story if it was a brand new stage, Tails would be in Captain Toad's position) then that's just outright spoiling his playable appearance.

I can't count on it exactly until DLC at least, but given Tails is a pretty popular character (Obviously characters like Gil and the Virtua Fighter characters are exempt from this since they're probably examples of characters they decided to get in anyway even if they likely had little-to-no presence in the ballot) with an unaccounted for role upgrade thus far like many of the other mii costumes. He's a possibility.

 

[AndreaAC]

Pretty cool to see some Ridley vs Charizard

Ah...what a beautiful outcome. ;')

I need to do more with those two in the future. :> (Also, the battle would be even more hilarious with these alternate colors on both).