Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[True Blue Warrior]

alph.png

This is true. Wendy is technically the first female villain in the series, but also doesn’t really count.

If Alph was promoted to an Echo Fighter, he'd get his own taunts, victory animations, Classic Mode ending, unique set of Smash trophies and his own amiibo.

 

[Deleted member]

No character has ever been robbed in Smash as much as Alph has been in this game and Smash 4.

 

[FalconFire93]

The fact that Lance/Red's theme doesn't have a remix is a crime.

The fact that a remix like this isn’t in the game, when it should be is also a crime in itself, though you can find a ton of good remixes on YouTube that should be in Smash, but unfortunately aren’t.

 

[Darkraid]

Ah, okay, it's bait. That makes sense. I'll stop getting mad now.

Phoenix being in is 50% a character and series thing for me. To me, he along with Layton and Neku (and lower-key Style Savvy & the Elite Beat Agents) were the unsung heroes of the DS. High quality and original Nintendo-exclusive titles all with unique styles and memorable presentation and characters. All three should be repped. Phoenix is just my number one because I've loved the series for over a decade and I've played or experienced every single game.

Phoenix isn't even my favorite protagonist, that'd be Athena, but he's undoubtedly the most iconic and the one people know the most so a Phoenix moveset that uses Apollo and Athena (and Maya for the original trilogy fans) in it somehow is the dream.

I miss those elite beat agent.

That game was freaking awesome

 

[P.Kat]

Also, this is more of a joke, but:


Hey, it's even called Spirits in Japan, and what better month to talk about ghosts than October?

You know what else is depicted in Japan that fits well in October? Demons.

You know who slays demons on a daily basis? Ammy.

Were getting Ammy for Smash.

...

What do you mean how did I escaped the Asylum?

...Because people like him?

Also Marvel VS Capcom proved he could work as a playable character (even if he ends up incredibly unorthodox).

Honestly I just want Sakurai to use MvC3 as inspiration for adding in at least two more Capcom characters into Smash

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

Do you know who I'd rather have as an Assist Trophy over being Playable?

While Phoenix Wright to me, I absolutely want playable. NiGHTS is a case where I will take playable or assist trophy, because God knows he's been away for far too long!

I know right? with so many cool Capcom characters people want a silly lawyer. What is he going to do? Sue me? He wasn't even good in MvC people always preferred Zero, Dante, and other characters that are actually interesting and play better.

You're talking about the lawyer who can beat Galactus by simply sneezing. Get him into that Turnabout mode and you'll see what he can really do. He's got AT LEAST the second strongest hyper combo, if not the strongest for a very good reason in UMVC3.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

Alt costumes aren't considered separate characters in Smash, especially since they're given far less love within the franchise that someone like Dr. Mario.

The cold irony how Dr. Mario is treated like an individual character while the Koopalings/Alph and the Echoes are pretty much alternate costumes... what the heck?

 

[Deleted member]

If Alph was promoted to an Echo Fighter, he'd get his own taunts, victory animations, Classic Mode ending, unique set of Smash trophies and his own amiibo.

I was using Alph as an example of what you said, not a counterexample. Probably should've made that more clear.

 

[---]

I know this was a ton of pages ago, but I find that people using the term “all-star” just have been using that to say why their character should be in another shouldn’t.

Like Rex and Pyra aren’t all-stars. Nope. No way. Yet, by sales number that people USUALLY like to throw around, their game dominated.

You know, Greninja was definitely an all-star when he was added. It’s not like he was a character nobody wanted right? Mewtwo? Who needs Mewtwo over Greninja.

Guys, the same tired arguments get used to the point that nobody even knows what they’re arguing anymore. We place importance upon things we THINK are important, without actually grounding them in anything.

Few of them, mind you, have to do with playing the game and being fun. I mean really, it’s staggering to me that all that matters to this board is a few specific things, and that if the character you like is a particular character you may be told, “Uh, no. They’re not an all star.”

It sucks too, because if Smash only ever stuck to All-Stars, a good chunk of the characters wouldn’t be there.

A least in my mind, Smash has always stuck to "All-Stars," but I know I'm in a minority of a minority of a minority Nintendo fanboys who knows Luigi debuted on the Game & Watch. That said, there does at least seem to be some hesitance by Sakurai himself towards characters that he considers too obscure. The issue as far as I can tell that "All-Star" is entirely subjective, and the Smash fanbase doesn't look outside it's own bubble enough.

Anyway if it helps the discussion and to make Thinkaman feel old:
https://smashboards.com/threads/gdc-2008-meeting-masahiro-sakurai.146816/
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/15390/sakurai-speaks-on-brawl-character-development
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/07/09/character-design-101/

 

[RawstyleEevee]

A least in my mind, Smash has always stuck to "All-Stars," but I know I'm in a minority of a minority of a minority Nintendo fanboys who knows Luigi debuted on the Game & Watch. That said, there does at least seem to be some hesitance by Sakurai himself towards characters that he considers too obscure. The issue as far as I can tell that "All-Star" is entirely subjective, and the Smash fanbase doesn't look outside it's own bubble enough.

Anyway if it helps the discussion and to make Thinkaman feel old:
https://smashboards.com/threads/gdc-2008-meeting-masahiro-sakurai.146816/
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/15390/sakurai-speaks-on-brawl-character-development
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/07/09/character-design-101/

Honestly the real allstars that weren't included in Smash 4 where Ridley and K.rool imo.

Allstar in my eyes are characters that have the biggest roles in their franchises and Brawl covered alot of those characters in the first place

 

[Nekoo]

I guess like --- said, All star is subjective because for me, All-Stars are Characters who had influence in their media and even beyond had cultural influence.
Which a lot of Nintendo Characters and most third parties (beside Bayonetta) are. (And I'll argue Phoenix-Wright , Lara Croft and Dante are worthy of that title imo)

Then there is Characters that are gaming icons. They're big and famous, but they're not "All-star" since their influence don't go back the video game circle. (Sora, Banjo-Kazoie, Ammy, and others are here like most third-parties not in smash yet. But there is in my opinion no Nintendo Characters left in that category)

Then just Nintendo Icons, who are knows by Nintendo fans like Ashley, Lip, The FE cast etc. Who are famous too! But their influence rarely go beyond the Nintendo/Fan fandom

 

[G-Guy]

with all those character rumors and "leaks" floating around, I have to wonder why nobody is ever mentioning the Monster Hunter, despite having a boss representative in the game, already....

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

with all those character rumors and "leaks" floating around, I have to wonder why nobody is ever mentioning the Monster Hunter, despite having a boss representative in the game, already....

Because if they were in the game, They would have been announced before Rathalos...

 

[Squirtle/Mario guy]

I said it before and I'll say it again: Sonic Team probably sidelined Tails as a playable character when they realised just how broken he becomes in the 3D plane when given all his capabilities.

Tails' playable options became increasingly limited as time went on: fully playable in Sonic Adventure, forced into a mech in Sonic Adventure 2 (at least outside the Chao Garden), tied to Sonic and Knuckles in Sonic Heroes (a game that is very linear and corridor-y), limited to certain stage segments in Sonic '06, fully an NPC in Unleased.

It's because he can fly, which runs counter to the purpose of a platformer, in the 2D games this has limited use, but in a 3D game, you can just bypass huge chunks of level (see: Windy Valley in Sonic Adventure), unless Tails is hugely nerfed or the level is specifically designed with him in mind.

Tom Nook is usually hated

 

[Jetsurge]

with all those character rumors and "leaks" floating around, I have to wonder why nobody is ever mentioning the Monster Hunter, despite having a boss representative in the game, already....

If there was a MH character they would've revealed Rathalos and the stage with it. It's common sense.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

with all those character rumors and "leaks" floating around, I have to wonder why nobody is ever mentioning the Monster Hunter, despite having a boss representative in the game, already....

'Cause they say the series is more about the world and monsters themselves, rather than any particular characters.

Also, what the folks above me said.

I guess like --- said, All star is subjective because for me, All-Stars are Characters who had influence in their media and even beyond had cultural influence.
Which a lot of Nintendo Characters and most third parties (beside Bayonetta) are. (And I'll argue Phoenix-Wright , Lara Croft and Dante are worthy of that title imo)

Then there is Characters that are gaming icons. They're big and famous, but they're not "All-star" since their influence don't go back the video game circle. (Sora, Banjo-Kazoie, Ammy, and others are here like most third-parties not in smash yet. But there is in my opinion no Nintendo Characters left in that category)

Then just Nintendo Icons, who are knows by Nintendo fans like Ashley, Lip, The FE cast etc. Who are famous too! But their influence rarely go beyond the Nintendo/Fan fandom

To me, All-Stars are characters that are good enough to be memorable in the minds and hearts of many people. That extends to any lesser-known characters Sakurai deems worthy of letting into Smash, and are available to include.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

The cold irony how Dr. Mario is treated like an individual character while the Koopalings/Alph and the Echoes are pretty much alternate costumes... what the heck?

One is important and the others are not (a legal enough doctor > 7 disowned kids and Alph)

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Bringing up an old topic, do you think Coro coro was right with the stage number or was it a typo?

 

[---]

Honestly the real allstars that weren't included in Smash 4 where Ridley and K.rool imo.

Allstar in my eyes are characters that have the biggest roles in their franchises and Brawl covered alot of those characters in the first place

Mostly how I define it with exception to franchises with ever changing casts of characters. That's not to say my definition is correct though, as I'm sure I'd make a lot of Mario/Zelda fans upset if I started to list my opinions.

At least in my mind, the character that always comes to mind when "All-Star" & obscure is brought up is Takamaru or Saki. Nintendo protagonists who got their games re-released internationally and had semi-reboots & sequels within the past 10 years but also fit into both categories. Little Macs they turned out not to be. Most un-playable IPs fall into something similar to this.

Bayonetta is also another example. I don't think anyone would compare her to the other 3rd parties in Smash right now, but somehow went underneath the radar of the entire Smash community despite numerous fan polls.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

One is important and the others are not (a legal enough doctor > 7 disowned kids and Alph)

I think it's more a case of "those who manage to get enough seniority in Smash can get upgraded".

Although in the Koopalings' case, that's not going to be likely any time soon, if ever.

 

[G-Guy]

I do not think that Sakurai would just reveal the Monster Hunter Character with the boss....you know the man, he's unpredictable

 

[Knight Dude]

It took a while to catch back up with everything here. Glad people were talking about Tekken for a little bit, but it sucks that I missed it.

As for Phoenix Wright, I think he makes the most sense for another Capcom character that isn't another character from Mega Man or Street Fighter. He's had close ties to Nintendo given most of his games debut there and has been around since the GBA(or DS since the early games were released on it in the US.). It also helps he's got some good music, is from a generally popular series and is the kind of wacky fun character that fits like a glove.

On a personal level I'd prefer Dante (for a Non-Mega Man choice at least) since I like his games more. For the people who wonder about him, his situation if he ever gets into Smash would be similar to Cloud. In that he has appearances in crossovers and the like but no main title on a Nintendo system. Project X Zone 1 and 2 along with some Capcom vs SNK card game.

 

[Luigifan18]

I miss those elite beat agent.

That game was freaking awesome

I've actually been brainstorming a sequel idea for EBA for the past 10 years or so. I plan to propose it on the osu! forums once I'm satisfied with the song list.

 

[LetterO]

Bringing up an old topic, do you think Coro coro was right with the stage number or was it a typo?

I think they were, just because Sakurai never said that 103 was the final stage count. There's no reason not to say so by now if it was the final stage count.

 

[justPUNT3R]

I know this is unrelated but for those who want to predict what a SSBU tier list would look like and want to make other tier lists related to SSBU, here's a link. https://ssbworld.com/create/tier-list/ultimate/?posting=true

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I think it's more a case of "those who manage to get enough seniority in Smash can get upgraded".

Although in the Koopalings' case, that's not going to be likely any time soon, if ever.

Or both Sakurai and Bowser doesn’t love them enough to give them anyth8ng better than being slaves to Bowser Jr...while Doctor Mario gets priority for being Mario as a “doctor” (being the boss is always a win)

 

[Opossum]

Guys, the closed door NYC event means literally nothing.

The last time one happened, it turned out to be a private press demo for Disney Magical World 2 for the 3DS.

 

[Robertman2]

Calling Lip a Nintendo icon is... a stretch

 

[Deathcarter]

Since the topic of All-Stars was brought back up, my view of "Nintendo All-Star" in the context of Smash amounts to "Prominent or otherwise distinguished character of a very notable Nintendo franchise" as opposed to "character your typical gaming console player recognizes". Because if we're going by the latter definition, we'd have to disqualify most of the roster up to and including some of the Original 8 like from being considered "All-Stars" because I'd definitely bet a lot of people didn't know who these three were when starting 64. In general, I think Nintendo/Sakurai are more than warranted in not downplaying the importance of their B and C tier IPs/characters just because a lot of fans both casual and hardcore have a very limited view on what qualifies as "deserving"

 

[Idon]

Guys, the closed door NYC event means literally nothing.

The last time one happened, it turned out to be a private press demo for Disney Magical World 2 for the 3DS.

SO YOU'RE SAYING IT WAS A DISNEY THING.
YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE IS DISNEY?
SORA.
SORA REVEAL TRAILER, CONFIRMED???

 

[TheCJBrine]

alright we got a new leak from the land of 4chan:

Spoiler: Take it with a grain of salt (how many times has that been said :troll:)

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/434225095#q434225095

It's Geno, another anonymous user in the replies claims it's from his reveal.

May be fake, but since it's yet another zoomed in pic it's hard to tell, so I guess we may as well assume fake until proven otherwise, though I find it interesting. Someone shared this on the Geno thread.

The background seems to be an updated version of the playroom in the Smash 64 intro.

 

[LetterO]

alright we got a new leak from the land of 4chan:

Spoiler: Take it with a grain of salt (how many times has that been said :troll:)

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/434225095#q434225095

It's Geno, another anonymous user in the replies claims it's from his reveal.

May be fake, but since it's yet another zoomed in pic it's hard to tell, so I guess we may as well assume fake until proven otherwise, though I find it interesting. Someone shared this on the Geno thread.

The background seems to be an updated version of the playroom in the Smash 64 intro.

It's a zoomed in pic, so it's fake. Nothing to see here, move along.

 

[osby]

The cold irony how Dr. Mario is treated like an individual character while the Koopalings/Alph and the Echoes are pretty much alternate costumes... what the heck?

He isn't treated like an individual character, he's treated as an individual fighter.

Also, I can't see what good will come from comparing those characters, Mario doesn't fight like Bowser Jr. or Olimar.

 

[AugustusB]

alright we got a new leak from the land of 4chan:

Spoiler: Take it with a grain of salt (how many times has that been said :troll:)

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/434225095#q434225095

It's Geno, another anonymous user in the replies claims it's from his reveal.

May be fake, but since it's yet another zoomed in pic it's hard to tell, so I guess we may as well assume fake until proven otherwise, though I find it interesting. Someone shared this on the Geno thread.

The background seems to be an updated version of the playroom in the Smash 64 intro.

Tried to bring that here a bit ago. Sadly no one wants to debunk this...

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

alright we got a new leak from the land of 4chan:

Spoiler: Take it with a grain of salt (how many times has that been said :troll:)

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/434225095#q434225095

It's Geno, another anonymous user in the replies claims it's from his reveal.

May be fake, but since it's yet another zoomed in pic it's hard to tell, so I guess we may as well assume fake until proven otherwise, though I find it interesting. Someone shared this on the Geno thread.

The background seems to be an updated version of the playroom in the Smash 64 intro.

And... Fake
Geno looks off...
Also, pretty sure the that one reply is from the same guy. Anonymous for a reason

 

[TheCJBrine]

Well I hope that turns out real.

Geno's spirit possessing the doll and bringing it to life in more ways than just simply "possessed doll," along with an HD Smash 64 intro playroom would be awesome.

 

[Shadowwolflink]

It's a zoomed in pic, so it's fake. Nothing to see here, move along.

That logic is so flawed, I can't even.

 

[Buzzwole]

If there was a MH character they would've revealed Rathalos and the stage with it. It's common sense.

While I agree with you, to play devils advocate, they showed off the Punch-Out stage in Smash 4 before they revealed Little Mac.

 

[Starbound]

I guess like --- said, All star is subjective because for me, All-Stars are Characters who had influence in their media and even beyond had cultural influence.
Which a lot of Nintendo Characters and most third parties (beside Bayonetta) are. (And I'll argue Phoenix-Wright , Lara Croft and Dante are worthy of that title imo)

Then there is Characters that are gaming icons. They're big and famous, but they're not "All-star" since their influence don't go back the video game circle. (Sora, Banjo-Kazoie, Ammy, and others are here like most third-parties not in smash yet. But there is in my opinion no Nintendo Characters left in that category)

Then just Nintendo Icons, who are knows by Nintendo fans like Ashley, Lip, The FE cast etc. Who are famous too! But their influence rarely go beyond the Nintendo/Fan fandom

I agree with pretty much all of this and I'll add an unpopular opinion to it as well:

There are no Nintendo characters left who really have that "All-Star" level of significance. The talent pool has basically drained.

and I'd also argue that only the following characters are actually Nintendo icons: Waluigi, Skull Kid, Dixie Kong and maybe Excitebiker. Those are the only Nintendo characters left that I feel have actually left a mark on gaming culture. But the nice thing for every other character (who I would argue are all just Nintendo characters) is that being an icon is not a prerequisite for joining Smash.

For these reasons, I'm expecting the DLC for this game to be mostly third parties because that's where all the hype currently is.

 

[AugustusB]

Well I hope that turns out real.

Geno's spirit possessing the doll and bringing it to life in more ways than just simply "possessed doll," along with an HD Smash 64 intro playroom would be awesome.

As I pointed out in the Geno thread, this looks like a still from an animation.
We did have a reveal with an animation instead of a video game made one (Palutena).
Would love to see this true, but who knows.