Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Xgears]

Never thought I'd have to use this meme for a character that wasn't Incineroar...

And Phoenix Wright is a cool character. He could bring many things with him, such as his great music, a court stage, and not to mention his famous Objection.

And just because some people (ie YOU), did not like him in MvC, does not mean the Smash fanbase would not appreciate him. Dante and Zero are not characters that would be actually interesting or would play better to ME . Phoenix Wright would hype me up over those characters any day.

Seems you have bad taste then. A guy that can transform into a demon and shoot lighting seems better to me, but what can I say?

Found the guy who never played the series.
Or know what other things he could do.

Smh

Why would I play series I don't find interesting? Capcom has better games I'd rather play.

 

[ganondorf_22]

I said it before and I'll say it again: Sonic Team probably sidelined Tails as a playable character when they realised just how broken he becomes in the 3D plane when given all his capabilities.

Tails' playable options became increasingly limited as time went on: fully playable in Sonic Adventure, forced into a mech in Sonic Adventure 2 (at least outside the Chao Garden), tied to Sonic and Knuckles in Sonic Heroes (a game that is very linear and corridor-y), limited to certain stage segments in Sonic '06, fully an NPC in Unleased.

It's because he can fly, which runs counter to the purpose of a platformer, in the 2D games this has limited use, but in a 3D game, you can just bypass huge chunks of level (see: Windy Valley in Sonic Adventure), unless Tails is hugely nerfed or the level is specifically designed with him in mind.

Waiting for New Super Tails U to come out on the Swítch.

 

[CosmicQuark]

I said it before and I'll say it again: Sonic Team probably sidelined Tails as a playable character when they realised just how broken he becomes in the 3D plane when given all his capabilities.

Tails' playable options became increasingly limited as time went on: fully playable in Sonic Adventure, forced into a mech in Sonic Adventure 2 (at least outside the Chao Garden), tied to Sonic and Knuckles in Sonic Heroes (a game that is very linear and corridor-y), limited to certain stage segments in Sonic '06, fully an NPC in Unleased.

It's because he can fly, which runs counter to the purpose of a platformer, in the 2D games this has limited use, but in a 3D game, you can just bypass huge chunks of level (see: Windy Valley in Sonic Adventure), unless Tails is hugely nerfed or the level is specifically designed with him in mind.

And it's such a shame because, for those reasons, Tails was so much fun to play in Sonic Adventure. Less so in Sonic Adventure 2. And... well, let's not speak of '06.

Sonic Team has got to stop listening to the fans who criticized Sonic characters and just wanted Sonic. A Sonic game with just Sonic would be 2 hours. The compromises they've come up with (Werehog, short games, Modern/classic) isn't as fun as playing with a multitude of interesting characters for replayability.

 

[Luigifan18]

I said it before and I'll say it again: Sonic Team probably sidelined Tails as a playable character when they realised just how broken he becomes in the 3D plane when given all his capabilities.

Tails' playable options became increasingly limited as time went on: fully playable in Sonic Adventure, forced into a mech in Sonic Adventure 2 (at least outside the Chao Garden), tied to Sonic and Knuckles in Sonic Heroes (a game that is very linear and corridor-y), limited to certain stage segments in Sonic '06, fully an NPC in Unleased.

It's because he can fly, which runs counter to the purpose of a platformer, in the 2D games this has limited use, but in a 3D game, you can just bypass huge chunks of level (see: Windy Valley in Sonic Adventure), unless Tails is hugely nerfed or the level is specifically designed with him in mind.

Yeah... that's also probably why Knuckles is sent on treasure hunts across the map instead of just going from point A to point B.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

Batman in Smash would break the internet!
Like how Bane broke Batman's back

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Remember bill recently said “72 hours remaining”

Well.....

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Take with grain of salt though

 

[Luigifan18]

Remember bill recently said “72 hours remaining”

Well.....

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Take with grain of salt though

Wait. I'm gonna be in New York today... darn it!

 

[Blue7113]

I haven’t been active on here in a while, so what characters are we all predicting? I’m guessing we’re still hung up on Ken and Inceneroar?

 

[Xgears]

Remember bill recently said “72 hours remaining”

Well.....

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Take with grain of salt though

Yeah we're getting something next week.

 

[KMDP]

And it's such a shame because, for those reasons, Tails was so much fun to play in Sonic Adventure. Less so in Sonic Adventure 2. And... well, let's not speak of '06.

Sonic Team has got to stop listening to the fans who criticized Sonic characters and just wanted Sonic. A Sonic game with just Sonic would be 2 hours. The compromises they've come up with (Werehog, short games, Modern/classic) isn't as fun as playing with a multitude of interesting characters for replayability.

Yeah... that's also probably why Knuckles is sent on treasure hunts across the map instead of just going from point A to point B.

There's also the fact that Tails being playable is sort of a lose-lose in terms of Sonic as a game as it is now (the Boost Formula specifically), Knuckles also has a similar issue.

The level geometry is incredibly horizontal now, a character with the ability to move vertically is... well... pointless, and since Tails and Knuckles can float horizontally, they'd negate any and all challenge in the levels.

Obviously, the solution to this would be to make the level as vertical as it is horizontal (so that Tails and Knuckles actually have something to challenge them), but that would require dropping the Boost Formula and coming up with something entirely new.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

Remember bill recently said “72 hours remaining”

Well.....

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Take with grain of salt though

They'll probably discuss about the first indie character to make it in Smash as a playable character...

 

[P.Kat]

The fact that Lance/Red's theme doesn't have a remix is a crime.

That fact that Champion Iris doesn't have a remix, and that Cynthia's theme is lacking in that dynamic flair that her game had are additional crimes.

 

[lightdrago]

Seems you have bad taste then. A guy that can transform into a demon and shoot lighting seems better to me, but what can I say?

Why would I play series I don't find interesting? Capcom has better games I'd rather play.

I'd say I have a different taste, not a bad one. I won't crap on people who like Dante, nor will I say people who want him have "bad taste," because he too would bring an interesting gameplay to Smash. Phoenix Wright, however, would bring a much more unique and amusing one, especially from what we've seen in MvC 3. Especially in the hands of Sakurai. We'd definitely have a playstyle we have not seen before. Look at Villager or Wii Fit Trainer. Sakurai has worked with less.

So...

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

Remember bill recently said “72 hours remaining”

Well.....

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Take with grain of salt though

We talked about that earlier, it's likely unrelated and just a private demo event for the press. They've happened before without any significance.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

I haven’t been active on here in a while, so what characters are we all predicting? I’m guessing we’re still hung up on Ken and Inceneroar?

Yes among other continuing theories that won't end until more confirmed information is shown.

 

[Squirtle/Mario guy]

I know right? with so many cool Capcom characters people want a silly lawyer. What is he going to do? Sue me? He wasn't even good in MvC people always preferred Zero, Dante, and other characters that are actually interesting and play better.

Well He was in Marvel v Capcom so he can get moves from there

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

We talked about that earlier, it's likely unrelated and just a private demo event for the press. They've happened before without any significance.

Still likely to get something next week regardless

It just fits too well with what bill tweeted

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I know right? with so many cool Capcom characters people want a silly lawyer. What is he going to do? Sue me? He wasn't even good in MvC people always preferred Zero, Dante, and other characters that are actually interesting and play better.

"Good" =/= interesting, in fact a lot of the top tiers in UMvC3 were pretty one note. Morri/Doom shell, Vergil, and Zero were the biggest offenders here, especially from an educated spectator's standpoint.

...but I don't think that's what you're getting at here. Probably something about Capcom badasses floats your boat, which is all well and good, but like...Phoenix was actually a pretty ingenious character in execution that stayed true to the essence of his games. Unconventional normals (dude doesn't even throw a punch), unique mechanics in collecting evidence to utilize or stockpile to soup up his specials/assists...all of it was executed extremely well and with an obvious eye to detail. I dunno why his series sucking to you has anything to do with that.

(And I say all this as someone who is only passively familiar with the series at best, mind. Adventure games are not exactly my forté. But I've done my homework.)

Also, I'd refrain from telling people they have lousy taste if I were you, or at the very least give more substantive reasoning as to why.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Xgears]

I'd say I have a different taste, not a bad one. I won't crap on people who like Dante, nor will I say people who want him have "bad taste," because he too would bring an interesting gameplay to Smash. Phoenix Wright, however, would bring a much more unique and amusing one, especially from what we've seen in MvC 3. Especially in the hands of Sakurai. We'd definitely have a playstyle we have not seen before. Look at Villager or Wii Fit Trainer. Sakurai has worked with less.

So...

We already have characters that can't fight be fighters in smash like Isabelle, why do we need another gimmicky fighter that uses random wacky stuff to fight. At least Dante has far more material.

Also using silly memes doesn't help your argument.

 

[MainJPW]

I said it before and I'll say it again: Sonic Team probably sidelined Tails as a playable character when they realised just how broken he becomes in the 3D plane when given all his capabilities.

Tails' playable options became increasingly limited as time went on: fully playable in Sonic Adventure, forced into a mech in Sonic Adventure 2 (at least outside the Chao Garden), tied to Sonic and Knuckles in Sonic Heroes (a game that is very linear and corridor-y), limited to certain stage segments in Sonic '06, fully an NPC in Unleased.

It's because he can fly, which runs counter to the purpose of a platformer, in the 2D games this has limited use, but in a 3D game, you can just bypass huge chunks of level (see: Windy Valley in Sonic Adventure), unless Tails is hugely nerfed or the level is specifically designed with him in mind.

Sonic Adventure 2 probably needed Tails to be a clone of Eggman due to the whole Hero/Dark dynamic. It’s speculated that Eggman was added first due to Sonic, Knuckles and Eggman being featured in the E3 2000 trailers without Tails or whatever. Even when you hack mechless Tails into a level (his actions and animations are based on an early version of Sonic) his flight is indefinite...

Have you seen that Generations Tails mod? This is exactly how he WOULD play:

And Sonic Team could easily just do this, but even with this nerfed Boost Flight he can still just skip some segments of the level. Though, is that any different then Sonic Boost flying over a chunk of that sunset level in Forces? Lol.

 

[Xgears]

"Good" =/= interesting, in fact a lot of the top tiers in UMvC3 were pretty one note. Morri/Doom shell, Vergil, and Zero were the biggest offenders here, especially from an educated spectator's standpoint.

...but I don't think that's what you're getting at here. Probably something about Capcom badasses floats your boat, which is all well and good, but like...Phoenix was actually a pretty ingenious character in execution that stayed true to the essence of his games. Unconventional normals (dude doesn't even throw a punch), unique mechanics in collecting evidence to utilize or stockpile to soup up his specials/assists...all of it was executed extremely well and with an obvious eye to detail. I dunno why his series sucking to you has anything to do with that.

(And I say all this as someone who is only passively familiar with the series at best, mind. Adventure games are not exactly my forté. But I've done my homework.)

Also, I'd refrain from telling people they have lousy taste if I were you, or at the very least give more substantive reasoning.

Smooth Criminal

Did you just put your name like a signature at the bottom? That's really funny!

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

There's also the fact that Tails being playable is sort of a lose-lose in terms of Sonic as a game as it is now (the Boost Formula specifically), Knuckles also has a similar issue.

The level geometry is incredibly horizontal now, a character with the ability to move vertically is... well... pointless, and since Tails and Knuckles can float horizontally, they'd negate any and all challenge in the levels.

Obviously, the solution to this would be to make the level as vertical as it is horizontal (so that Tails and Knuckles actually have something to challenge them), but that would require dropping the Boost Formula and coming up with something entirely new.

Yeah Tails and Knuckles always have been somewhat game breaking and it's not a good thing when the titler character is usually considered the worst character to use.
This was also a huge problem in Advance 3 when all the other characters had more advantages over him on the level designs in that game.

There needs to be some kind of balance regarding other playable characters that don't overwhelm Sonic's playability.

 

[lightdrago]

We already have characters that can't fight be fighters in smash like Isabelle, why do we need another gimmicky fighter that uses random wacky stuff to fight. At least Dante has far more material.

Also using silly memes doesn't help your argument.

You literally have nothing that substantiates your argument. All you're saying is is that "Ace Attorney sucks and doesn't interest me, so Phoenix Wright would be a boring fighter." Like what? He'd be unconventional. That's what I've been saying. Sakurai can incorporate collecting evidence, "Take That!", "Objection", the Magatama, and other parts from his game into his moveset. And who say we don't need more "gimmicky" characters in Smash? You? You gotta realize that Phoenix Wright would be just as unique as any of Capcom's other available fighters.

And no, I won't stop using memes, images, and gifs. They are more useful to me as you provide nothing that helps your arguments.

 

[Danpal65]

Remember bill recently said “72 hours remaining”

Well.....

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Take with grain of salt though

This shouldn’t need to be said again. The “72 Hours Remaining” Tweet from Bill means absolutely nothing. For goodness sake look at the context the Tweet was made in. It was in response to another Tweet comparing a Skull-like asteroid to the Moon from Majora’s Mask. Bill made a fun quip in response. End of story. Roll credits. Can we please stop reading into things that have literally nothing to do with Smash and proclaiming it does!

 

[Flyboy]

Ah, okay, it's bait. That makes sense. I'll stop getting mad now.

Phoenix being in is 50% a character and series thing for me. To me, he along with Layton and Neku (and lower-key Style Savvy & the Elite Beat Agents) were the unsung heroes of the DS. High quality and original Nintendo-exclusive titles all with unique styles and memorable presentation and characters. All three should be repped. Phoenix is just my number one because I've loved the series for over a decade and I've played or experienced every single game.

Phoenix isn't even my favorite protagonist, that'd be Athena, but he's undoubtedly the most iconic and the one people know the most so a Phoenix moveset that uses Apollo and Athena (and Maya for the original trilogy fans) in it somehow is the dream.

 

[AugustusB]

Remember bill recently said “72 hours remaining”

Well.....

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Take with grain of salt though

You know who was revealed during a private event last time... Pac-Man.
I forgot that was how he was revealed.
I think this might happen again...or an announcement.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I said it before and I'll say it again: Sonic Team probably sidelined Tails as a playable character when they realised just how broken he becomes in the 3D plane when given all his capabilities.

Tails' playable options became increasingly limited as time went on: fully playable in Sonic Adventure, forced into a mech in Sonic Adventure 2 (at least outside the Chao Garden), tied to Sonic and Knuckles in Sonic Heroes (a game that is very linear and corridor-y), limited to certain stage segments in Sonic '06, fully an NPC in Unleased.

It's because he can fly, which runs counter to the purpose of a platformer, in the 2D games this has limited use, but in a 3D game, you can just bypass huge chunks of level (see: Windy Valley in Sonic Adventure), unless Tails is hugely nerfed or the level is specifically designed with him in mind.

Good point. Not a fan of these **** reasons, but that's a hit at the devs, not you.

Honestly, it'd be easy enough to nerf a flier to get them to work in a platformer. Just have him capped at floating three feet off the ground for a limited time or something, or make it basically like Peach's floating ability. I'd rather a Tails with a bad flying game than no Tails at all.

Then again, I don't really know Sonic that much. My knowledge of the series begins and ends with Sonic 2, so I'm running purely on nostalgia for this one.

Still, I'd love Tails for the awesome matchup possibilities (

vs. . Or vs. as in the EGM hoax)

 

[Wyoming]

Seems you have bad taste then. A guy that can transform into a demon and shoot lighting seems better to me, but what can I say?

Why would I play series I don't find interesting? Capcom has better games I'd rather play.

Ah in that case refrain from speaking nonsense then.

Easy peasy.

I don't care about Devil May Cry at all but I get why people want Dante. Not a hard concept!

 

[dezeray112]

...Because people like him?

Also Marvel VS Capcom proved he could work as a playable character (even if he ends up incredibly unorthodox).

Pretty much this. I was one of those people who wanted to see Phoenix Wright as a playable fighter (ever since he was one of the considered characters for Tatsunoko Vs Capcom: Ultimate All Stars) and they (Capcom) were able to produce a working move set for him for Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3.

 

[Aurane]

Also using silly memes doesn't help your argument.

You know nothing about the power of memes. I suggest you educate yourself before you eradicate yourself, kiddo.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Don’t know if it would be incorporated into his move set if he was in, but in the Ace Attorney anime lawyers are airbenders.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I know this was a ton of pages ago, but I find that people using the term “all-star” just have been using that to say why their character should be in another shouldn’t.

Like Rex and Pyra aren’t all-stars. Nope. No way. Yet, by sales number that people USUALLY like to throw around, their game dominated.

You know, Greninja was definitely an all-star when he was added. It’s not like he was a character nobody wanted right? Mewtwo? Who needs Mewtwo over Greninja.

Guys, the same tired arguments get used to the point that nobody even knows what they’re arguing anymore. We place importance upon things we THINK are important, without actually grounding them in anything.

Few of them, mind you, have to do with playing the game and being fun. I mean really, it’s staggering to me that all that matters to this board is a few specific things, and that if the character you like is a particular character you may be told, “Uh, no. They’re not an all star.”

It sucks too, because if Smash only ever stuck to All-Stars, a good chunk of the characters wouldn’t be there.

 

[AugustusB]

Quick! Someone disprove this. Call it fake!

Spoiler: Leak thing maybe

It was found here http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/434225095#q434225095 but wasn't up for more than an hour.

 

[Aurane]

Quick! Someone disprove this. Call it fake!

Spoiler: Leak thing maybe

View attachment 168429

It was found here http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/434225095#q434225095 but wasn't up for more than an hour.

>4chan

Fake. That was quick.

 

[Curious Villager]

Quick! Someone disprove this. Call it fake!

Spoiler: Leak thing maybe

View attachment 168429

It was found here http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/434225095#q434225095 but wasn't up for more than an hour.

Wasn't that the one with a golden Geno posing like a Mii Gunner?

 

[AugustusB]

Wasn't that the one with a golden Geno posing like a Mii Gunner?

Not quite, though I am certain this is an anime style animation of sorts. Just curious for those that are 'experts' in the field of debunking stuff like this.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Poor Wendy. No one ever remembers she exists when talking about female villains.

Alt costumes aren't considered separate characters in Smash, especially since they're given far less love within the franchise that someone like Dr. Mario.

 

[MainJPW]

There needs to be some kind of balance regarding other playable characters that don't overwhelm Sonic's playability.

The best solution would be to just need their abilities and give them new options. A member over at SSMB came up with some good solutions I think: This post specifically.

Also, the other characters would probably work better outside of Boost style of gameplay due to said abilities. Time to throw Boost as we know it in the bin.

 

[Deleted member]

Alt costumes aren't considered separate characters in Smash, especially since they're given far less love within the franchise that someone like Dr. Mario.

alph.png

This is true. Wendy is technically the first female villain in the series, but also doesn’t really count.

 

[Darkraid]

I know right? with so many cool Capcom characters people want a silly lawyer. What is he going to do? Sue me? He wasn't even good in MvC people always preferred Zero, Dante, and other characters that are actually interesting and play better.

The silly lawyer is a great character.