Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[ZoroCarlos]

Damn, RIP Vergeben. ZeRo out here telling us EVERYTHING before Ultimate comes out.

M2K's reaction pretty much sums up how I feel about all of Ultimate's speculation in general.

 

[osby]

Dixie Kong should be mentioned way more often here. Really important character with no role at the moment. Just think about how important she is!

She had so many appereances in dk games and is still relevant. Her past history and her present time are too big and too important!

Just my opinion but if chrom and dark samus are echo fighters, dixie kong HAS to get in at least as an echo fighter. Either base or dlc. She has to! No excuses!

Nah, we got the DKC rep for this game, we don't need Dixie, who cares if she's relevant and popular?

 

[Llort A. Ton]

Which Smash character would you give a hug to?

bcuz they cute
bcuz they good dogs
to piss him off

 

[Deleted member]

One last thing I'll add before dropping this (it just popped into my head): Trying to claim what is and isn't popular is pointless and is an argument that I could easily flip right back onto any character in this game. Also, there is no such thing as a "deserving" character. Concepts such as these are subjective, vary from person to person, and are taken way too seriously and as fact when they really shouldn't be.

I like Bandana Dee. Is he important to Kirby as a whole? No, not really. If Bandana Dee is suddenly important because he's playable, then I guess every Kirby friend is now possible for the roster, as they're playable throughout the franchise as well. This argument goes both ways. This is all I have to say on this subject, as I'm not really a fan of talking in circles nor do I feel the need to make anyone agree with me. Let's all agree to disagree and like what we like.

 

[Iridium]

.....is this a prank?

I remember this from yesterday. Yes, it's a joke.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

Damn, RIP Vergeben. ZeRo out here telling us EVERYTHING before Ultimate comes out.

Damn, Goku fans utterly BTFO

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Now that we have over 100 stages, we can ban all but Lylat Cruise and Smashville.

A real nightmare

 

[Deleted member]

Nah, we got the DKC rep for this game

No we didn't. We got K. Rool. DK Rep's assist trophy hasn't been seen yet, so his chances are still pretty good.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

No we didn't. We got K. Rool. DK Rep's assist trophy hasn't been seen yet, so his chances are still pretty good.

We got Klaptrap

 

[Deleted member]

We got Klaptrap

Klaptrap and DK Rep are two completely different characters.

This is DK Rep. He's been teased on the website ever since E3.

 

[Dee Dude]

Weren’t people just fine with DK, Diddy, and K.Rool during the Smash 4 spec days?

I often see these 3 only on a lot of prediction rosters, pretty strange that people are now advocating for all four.

 

[Deoxys911]

I certainly understand the comparison between Rosalina and Skull Kid. If we look at the timing of development planning, Rosalina had only made one major appearance in a core series Mario game at the time, yes. Looking at her moveset especially, it becomes clear that she was added not entirely because of who she was, but also because of where she came from. Rosalina represents one of the best games in one of the most successful series of all time, one that was very important to Nintendo in the years between Brawl's initial development and SSB for Nintendo 3DS/Wii U's. Skull Kid is similar in that he appeared in one core series Zelda title and would work well as a representative of that game if for no other reason than how iconic his mask is.

That said, there are definitely differences to be accounted for. Skull Kid's only other appearance in his Majora's Mask incarnation was Hyrule Warriors, which certainly counts for something, but that still pales in comparison to Rosalina's multiple appearances in the Mario spin-offs in addition to SMG. I know a lot of us don't hold the Mario sports games in as high regard as Hyrule Warriors, but one of those two are undoubtedly more important to Nintendo both historically and at present. Also, Rosalina has had further core series appearances, whereas Skull Kid is still waiting (and likely will keep waiting for quite a while unless you want to count MM 3D as a separate entry in the core series). Oh yeah, and Majora's Mask was a hit upon release, but took quite a few years to be recognized as the great game that many see it as today, around the time of its release being overshadowed by both OoT and the SpaceWorld tech demo. Galaxy, on the other hand? It was a hyped, successful, extremely popular game right from the get-go. For the similarities that they share, there is still a lot that separates Rosalina and Skull Kid—they really are on two different levels—and that's probably why Sakurai chose to add one and only make the other an Assist Trophy, and why Skull Kid has probably missed out on being playable once again this time, honestly.

There's always hope for the future, though, so if you really want to see Skull Kid as a playable fighter in Smash, come together and work to make him the next Ridley or K. Rool. No one can say for sure if it will work, but hey, it's the best chance he's got at this rate, and you've truly got everything to gain and nothing to lose, so I wish you all good luck.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Weren’t people just fine with DK, Diddy, and K.Rool during the Smash 4 spec days?

I often see these 3 only on a lot of prediction rosters, pretty strange that people are now advocating for all four.

Dixie wants some love...but K Roll won’t allow it

 

[ZephyrZ]

It's a shame FE Warriors didn't have the variety of characters and history like Hyrule Warriors does. I wanted to play as people who weren't just Awakening and Fates and even having Camilla, Lyn, the usual suspects, and a few fun characters in it didn't entice me to pick it up. Hyrule Warriors had Marin of all people. Way cool.

Also the idea of a developer adding someone as a "waifu" doesn't...seem right. Same with the bias argument. Idk. Doesn't hold a lot of water with me.

Marin was added really late into DLC. I think the main issue is that Fire Emblem has way, way more characters than Zelda did. It was way easier for LoZ to cover their bases so they could get to the wacky obscure stuff then it is for FEWs, which has a lot more characters to add before it's fully satisfactory. And it's DLC life span wasn't a long as well.

Warrior's roster is still a mess for a number of reasons, but I don't think it's fair at all to compare it to HW.

 

[mynameisBlade]

K. Rool fans are Dixie fans and vice-versa. We've wanted both for as long as I can remember. Fortunately, we received the one of them. Of course we still want the other..

 

[Nekoo]

Lmao, Fire Emblem Warrior's development was a mess, and the producer/ Tecmo Koei is faulty for that and there rumor that the dev team themselves though the roster was ****. I still refuse to believe I breath the same air as people thinking "Nah dude, Ike? Roy? Hector? You mean the characters we could ride of their off-shore popularity and sell mucho thanks to them? Lmao **** that, we keep them for a never ever sequel however, please, add more Fates charcters, tnx love."
And that game was also the time Lyn got pushed forward, and it all went to hell as she basically started to get pushed to hell in Cipher and Heroes after getting into Warriors

 

[osby]

K. Rool fans are Dixie fans and vice-versa. We've wanted both for as long as I can remember. Fortunately, we received the one of them. Of course we still want the other..

I don't think this is the case for everyone. I wanted Dixie but have no desire for K.Rool. Similarly, I know quite a lot people who can't care less about her but want the Kremlin King after Ridley.

Also if every K.Rool fan was also a Dixie fan, we'd still see a huge push for her.

 

[ZephyrZ]

And that game was also the time Lyn got pushed forward, and it all went to hell as she basically started to get pushed to hell in Cipher and Heroes after getting into Warriors

I blame that on CYL and also probably gacha money, not on Warriors itself.

 

[Dee Dude]

People don’t have to want to both.

If K.Rool fans aren’t interested in Dixie, that’s fine and so is vice-versa.

 

[ErenJager]

To be fair Hyrule Warriors is a deluxe version of the Wii U and 3DS game. Its had far more development time and resources poured into it.

Where as FE Warriors is the first in its series.

I own both, FE Warriors is better then the first Hyrule Warriors imo.

Also I hope Koei Tecmo get in Smash... Hayabusa & Impa DLC pack would be very nice.

 

[Blargg888]

Probably the first 2-frame I've seen happen at this point.

I think there was a 2 frame in this video too.

I dunno, it looks like Ryu grabs the ledge, but I'm not sure.

 

[Impa4Smash]

I feel like Dixie was always stuck as the most wanted DK Rep after K Rool. And now because of all the support he’s in (and I’m happy) but I fear that Dixie may have missed the boat being 2nd banana when it came to wanted DK newcomers

 

[Lynn Eslie]

Weren’t people just fine with DK, Diddy, and K.Rool during the Smash 4 spec days?

I often see these 3 only on a lot of prediction rosters, pretty strange that people are now advocating for all four.

Think of it as "The Law of Transient Satisfaction." Where "Satisfaction" can be seen as a phantom variable in that its value dwindles quickly over time, before inevitably reaching a null factor. Thus, "Want" will invariably return to its natural, ravenous state.


More seriously, it's something you'll see a fair bit in the speculation scene. Fanbases will self-manage in order to ascertain the most likely candidate to secure a victory. Doesn't have to be their favorite, often doesn't have to be a character they are personally fond of, it's more about solidarity in love of a franchise. That said, once said character is added, the community will inevitably repeat the process to discover who is "next in line" so to speak.

 

[Gyrom8]

Did I miss most of the debate on Skull Kid/Zelda one offs?

I think with Zelda, it's best not to see it purely as numbers. Yeah, I'm admittedly salty that FE has more, but I'd rather the series add characters because they're worth it rather than hitting a certain quota. Zelda certainly doesn't need anymore clones until it gets an original fighter. Skull Kid would honest be a great character for several reasons, but one of the most important I think is design. He honestly is one of the best designed characters in the Zelda series, as is Midna. Both of them would also add something much needed to the Zelda roster: visual diversity. Visual diversity is one of the most important things in Smash, and I can't stress that enough. Part of the game's core appeal is the crossover element, and that's really strengthened by characters who look visually distinct - contrast, say, Mr. Game and Watch with Snake. I'm not going to go ahead and say something Like Link or Zelda shouldn't be in Smash, but it's a little boring to look at when we have four blonde-haired, pointy eared people (Sheik looks different enough). Why not add a scarecrow boy with a freaky mask? Why not an imp with a strange helmet and weird hand hair? Visual diversity is one of the things that the Pokemon roster has been good at (excluding Pikachu and Pichu, every fighter is distinct) and another series isn't so good at (not trying to start beef with FE fans or anything).

Skull Kid would also be good in his own right, not just because he fulfills some kind of aesthetic purpose. Majora's Mask is all about cursing stuff (the four parts of Termina, Link, Kafei etc.), so a moveset based around debuffing your opponent could be really fun and unique.

He also has one other thing going for him. People tend to depict Skull Kid as an edgelord or as creepy, but tbh, he just cute:

Spoiler

\

Quack quack quack.

 

[Funktastic]

I feel like Dixie was always stuck as the most wanted DK Rep after K Rool. And now because of all the support he’s in (and I’m happy) but I fear that Dixie may have missed the boat being 2nd banana when it came to wanted DK newcomers

Heh. 2nd Banana.

 

[kylexv]

That Ryu vs Pokemon Trainer footage reminded me of something.

There's a lot of questions I have about Ryu (and presumably Ken) always facing the opponent in 1v1s. I notices Ryu turned around at some points so idk.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Probably the first 2-frame I've seen happen at this point.

That was definitely not a two-framer. Eruption legit hit Marth underneath the ledge as he was recovering.

Ohhhhhhh man, the jank is still real, lol

Smooth Criminal

 

[Frostwraith]

Lmao, Fire Emblem Warrior's development was a mess, and the producer/ Tecmo Koei is faulty for that and there rumor that the dev team themselves though the roster was ****. I still refuse to believe I breath the same air as people thinking "Nah dude, Ike? Roy? Hector? You mean the characters we could ride of their off-shore popularity and sell mucho thanks to them? Lmao **** that, we keep them for a never ever sequel however, please, add more Fates charcters, tnx love."
And that game was also the time Lyn got pushed forward, and it all went to hell as she basically started to get pushed to hell in Cipher and Heroes after getting into Warriors

Still an Assist Trophy in Smash. lol

Anyway, in regards to Fire Emblem, and discounting echoes, I think that it generally does a good job in representing the various "sagas" or "eras" of FE:
1. Marth: Represents the NES era and early SNES era set in Archanea and its neighboring continent of Valentia. All these three games got remakes for DS/3DS. The OG Fire Emblem protagonist and storyline.
2. Roy: Represents the GBA era, when Fire Emblem turned international.
3. Ike: Represents the series' return to home consoles and first jump into 3D.
4. Robin (+ Lucina and Chrom as echoes): Represents the 3DS era that began with Awakening and what made Fire Emblem break out of its niche by drawing new audiences and making it a bigger IP for Nintendo, saving it from cancellation or a very long hiatus.
5. Corrin: This is one I feel it's an outlier since Fates still aligns well with the 3DS era, and he was added primarily for promotional reasons as a DLC character. Outside of him, all characters debut in FE games that were the first of their "era", which has a good logic to it. Still, Corrin's ability to transform into a dragon adds some variety to the FE roster.

Only the Jugdral games released later on the SNES tend to be less references, and there does seem to be a tendency for Nintendo to not reference these games as much as any other FE game. My guess might be due to some very questionable story elements in those games and being overall much darker than any other FE game that came before or after them.

Of course, it goes without saying that the primary reason behind any of these characters lies within gameplay and timing over anything else, but it's interesting how it turned out to be.

 

[Llort A. Ton]

I dunno, Ive wanted both but Ive been of the mind that K Rool should come first, so I guess I put all my support eggs in the K Rool basket. But I think that if Dark Smaus made it, I think Dixie also has enough fan support to make it even if it means shes an echo.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

People don’t have to want to both.

If K.Rool fans aren’t interested in Dixie, that’s fine and so is vice-versa.

I wanted both, even before K. Rool's reveal happened. Sadly, people like me are probably a minority on this front, in regards to the Smash scene.

 

[ZephyrZ]

*Snip*

Although I agree with these points when it come to Smash, the post you were responding to was criticizing FE: Warrior's character roster, not Smash's.

 

[Frostwraith]

Although I agree with these points when it come to Smash, the post you were responding to was criticizing FE: Warrior's character roster, not Smash's.

I know, but I just wanted to talk about FE in Smash Bros., which by the way is still a better roster than FE Warriors in terms of capturing the series' history. lol

 

[Noipoi]

My only small issue with the Fire Emblem characters is that they mostly use swords. I've played awakening, there are several awesome types of warriors they could be using.

 

[Idon]

FEW's 2 flaws was primarily a Shadow Dragon, Awakening, and Fates crossover and its clones, namely Lyn and Celica because they're from entirely different games yet still just copy another.

HW got over the first issue by having DLC to expand the roster into MM, ST, and WW snd got over the 2nd by just not including them.

Reading interviews, you can see that the internal development team weren't happy about this focus either, but the director was pretty adamant about "saving the big guns" so to speak for the possible sequel.

Side note: God, I wish Lyn was in Smash.
Has nothing to do with the flow of conversation, but GOD she's so COOL. How has it been so long without another iaijutsu use?

 

[Deoxys911]

Also I hope Koei Tecmo get in Smash... Hayabusa & Impa DLC pack would be very nice.

I agree, they really are one of the companies that most deserve a character in Smash based on the historic trend of Japanese developers with very successful games and ties to Nintendo getting characters in.

The other big companies that have earned their place in Smash (in rough order of how much I estimate they deserve representation):

• Atlus (Megami Tensei/Persona)
• Arc System Works [Double Dragon/Kunio-kun (Dodgeball/River City)]
• Level-5 (Professor Layton/Yo-kai Watch)
• Microsoft (Banjo & Kazooie/Minecraft)
• WB Interactive Entertainment (Mortal Kombat/Scribblenauts)

I'd also give shout-outs to the defunct Hudson and Enix, who really deserve to be represented even though the companies they are now part of already have representation. If there are any other big companies I've missed, feel free to throw their name in the ring!

I feel like Dixie was always stuck as the most wanted DK Rep after K Rool. And now because of all the support he’s in (and I’m happy) but I fear that Dixie may have missed the boat being 2nd banana when it came to wanted DK newcomers

I see what you did there, and I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate it.

 

[domriver]

So no news as of now from the Big House event?

 

[kylexv]

To those who are expecting some sort of announcement (or an announcement of an announcement) at Big House, well...

I just don't see it happening.

 

[amazonevan19]

So no news as of now from the Big House event?

Nope, and probably not going to be anything from Big House. If there is, it'll likely be on Sunday.

 

[Opossum]

The one complaint I'll give on FE Warriors' roster, before it veers too off topic, is that the base game should have cut three Fates characters and added three for Shadow Dragon, so the three headlining games would all have six characters. Because yikes, there is no good reason to have every single Hoshidan and Nohrian royal when someone like Minerva can't even make it to the base game...to say nothing of folks like Merric, Ogma, Jagen, Cain, Camus, or Hardin who didn't even get into the game at all...


To bring it back to Smash, even if Celica doesn't make it in, I'm glad that Smash has historically given some love to Gaiden in the music department (it got new songs in Brawl and 4 without any sort of major reason). It gives me hope for a lot of songs from Shadows of Valentia if nothing else.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

So... do you guys think we'll get an entire direct, or just a trailer ala Robin and Lucina?