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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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KirbyWorshipper2465

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Yes, I agree because taking a keen eye to TP, Zant as a weird bumbling chicken man clashes super hard wit his first appearance and the tone of the game.

I guess being quirky isn't bad because it can be intimating (ie look at many other evil 'clown' characters in media) but what we got is odd.
I personally think Kirby Star Allies handled that type of character better with Hyness. As the leader of a cult, it's natural for him to be completely insane and having the loosest grasp on reality, and still manages to be unsettling in spite of his goofy behavior in a Kirby game. And he didn't have his role hijacked at the last minute, he focused entirely on reviving his master.

The issue with Zant is that they used the wrong game to have Ganondorf yank away the assumed villain's focus from.
 
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SlickWylde

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Again games typically goes gold around 4-5weeks out from release. If Smash is in fact dropping Dec 7th. A rough estimate of when the game will go gold is about early Nov. So having a blow out Direct a week out from completion doesn't sound too crazy to me.
Yeah I don't disagree with your points. It's just weird to think about a Smash game where we (by intention) know the whole roster more than a month before release. But considering the leaks and Sakurai's attempt to fight them, I think you could be right.
 

DaybreakHorizon

The guy who predicted Sora as Fighter 11
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Hot Take: The Legend of Zelda is perfectly fine in terms of playable characters.

The only important characters in most games are Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. Any other character is just the antagonist of the week.

And before you say "well Fire Emblem and Pokémon have one off characters!1!" those series have rotating casts, and most characters aren't consistent throughout the series and therefore popular. Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are consistent throughout the Legend of Zelda series, and any other character is a side-liner. They're all that's needed to represent the series in playable form.

Also, "we're long overdue for a unique Zelda newcomer" isn't an argument but an opinion. There are many series and franchises "overdue" for representation in Smash Bros., and I could make that argument for most popularly speculated characters.

Also I doubt the iconic nature of Majora's Mask in memes and merchandising is enough to get Skull Kid in.
 
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Pakky

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I personally think Kirby Star Allies handled that type of character better with Hyness. As the leader of a cult, it's natural for him to be completely insane and having the loosest grasp on reality, and still manages to be unsettling in spite of his goofy behavior in a Kirby game. And he didn't have his role hijacked at the last minute, he focused entirely on reviving his master.

The issue with Zant is that they used the wrong game to have Ganondorf yank away the assumed villain's focus from.
I agree with this exactly.
 

P.Kat

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While I'd love Sora to be in base, Sora based off of his KH3 incarnation would be absolutely crazy, especially if they incorporate Keyblade Transformations and swapping Keyblades alongside the Command Gauge into his moveset. Like, he's based off of combos, and if he pulls enough off he can use strong magic finishers, or enter into a Keyblade Transformation (give him Kingdom Key, Star Seeker, and Master Keeper(?)/another original Keyblade to avoid copyright ****). I could see him being released alongside KH3 Switch, and maybe there'd be some cross promotion where if you register KH3 on MyNintendo you get Sora for free or something.
I know I'd go crazy if they added in KH3 Sora with Keyblade transformation, and magical finishers, but admittedly, a part of me would be sad that we wouldn't get the drive form system again if that was the case:(...

Till I'd remember oh yeah, I'M PLAYING WITH SORA IN SMASH! :), and get back to cracking skulls with my Keyblade.
 

TheCJBrine

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I really don't see why Sakurai would be against one-offs as long as they're popular. He probably just sees the triforce-holders as enough, because if he just couldn't pick from different one-offs but focused on reoccurring characters than we'd have Impa by now.

edit: I mean, she's only young in 3 games, but she's usually a major character isn't she (I haven't played Skyward Sword nor Warriors)? We could get her, Tingle, and Skull Kid. Make Toon Link more unique, and make Sheik an alt. of Impa like Alph is to Olimar (I actually read this idea in another thread).
 
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D

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Hot Take: The Legend of Zelda is perfectly fine in terms of playable characters.

The only important characters in any given game are Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. Any other character is just the antagonist of the week.

And before you say "well Fire Emblem and Pokémon have one off characters!1!" those series have rotating casts, and most characters aren't consistent throughout the series and therefore popular. Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are consistent throughout the Legend of Zelda series, and any other character is a side-liner. They're all that's needed to represent the series in playable form.

Also, "we're long overdue for a unique Zelda newcomer" isn't an argument but an opinion. There are many series and franchises "overdue" for representation in Smash Bros., and I could make that argument for most popularly speculated characters.
The same could be said for Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Mario, DK, Metroid, or just about any franchise in Smash. No FE character is consistent in their series either except for Marth, who is already in the game. Ike, Robin, Corrin, Roy, Chrom, and the others are one offs, just like Zelda characters. Those same Zelda characters have followings just as big if not a little bigger than those FE characters. Midna, Tingle, Skull Kid, and lots of others are all contenders for new Zelda reps and are easily recognizable. Saying one series gets to have one offs while the others don't is cherry picking. By this logic, Sheik should have never made it in.
 

DarthEnderX

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Cloud barely has relation to Nintendo and is mostly seen as a PlayStation character along with Snake.
Anyone that sees Snake as a PlayStation character is dumb because he was on Nintendo consoles over a decade before he showed up on PlayStation.
 

Xgears

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Anyone that sees Snake as a PlayStation character is dumb because he was on Nintendo consoles over a decade before he showed up on PlayStation.
Sure, but did people care about Snake before his PS1 game? That's the game people liked and the ports to his games before that were terrible.
 

Potato_

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I'd love it if Tetra made it to Smash as our new Zelda newcomer, give her, her flintlock pistol with water bullets, a cutlass for swashbuckling close combat, cannon, and bombs for long range attacks, and have her use her ship's catapult for her throws. She'd make a wonderful semi clone.
She's also a recurring character, if you want to make that argument. I would love her tbh.

Hot Take: The Legend of Zelda is perfectly fine in terms of playable characters.

The only important characters in most games are Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. Any other character is just the antagonist of the week.

And before you say "well Fire Emblem and Pokémon have one off characters!1!" those series have rotating casts, and most characters aren't consistent throughout the series and therefore popular. Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are consistent throughout the Legend of Zelda series, and any other character is a side-liner. They're all that's needed to represent the series in playable form.

Also, "we're long overdue for a unique Zelda newcomer" isn't an argument but an opinion. There are many series and franchises "overdue" for representation in Smash Bros., and I could make that argument for most popularly speculated characters.

Also I doubt the iconic nature of Majora's Mask in memes and merchandising is enough to get Skull Kid in.
Hotter take: At this point? Every series is basically represented well enough. I think Dixie and Bandana Dee are the only outliers that really need to be in IMO (other than Rex but we all agree he's dlc regardless pretty much.) The rest is just extra.

Honestly, name me a character that you think should be in purely in terms of merit alone from a first party other than those two/three. Medusa or Hades maybe?

We're getting into the range of characters that people want just because they like them, not because they NEED to represent the series. Waluigi, Geno, Skull Kid/Any Zelda rep. And that's fine.
 

Idon

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I really don't see why Sakurai would be against one-offs as long as they're popular. He probably just sees the triforce-holders as enough, because if he just couldn't pick from different one-offs but focused on reoccurring characters than we'd have Impa by now.

edit: I mean, she's only young in 3 games, but she's usually a major character isn't she (I haven't played Skyward Sword nor Warriors)? We could get her, Tingle, and Skull Kid. Make Toon Link more unique, and make Sheik an alt. of Impa like Alph is to Olimar (I actually read this idea in another thread).
Relatively major but my no means ever a focus.

Unless you're talking about Hyrule Warriors, in which ERRBODY important.
 

Idon

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The same could be said for Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Mario, DK, Metroid, or just about any franchise in Smash. No FE character is consistent in their series either except for Marth, who is already in the game. Ike, Robin, Corrin, Roy, Chrom, and the others are one offs, just like Zelda characters. Those same Zelda characters have followings just as big if not a little bigger than those FE characters. Midna, Tingle, Skull Kid, and lots of others are all contenders for new Zelda reps and are easily recognizable. Saying one series gets to have one offs while the others don't is cherry picking. By this logic, Sheik should have never made it in.
Side note: Ike is a protagonist in 2 FE games actually.
Side side note: sheik most likely got in primarily due to it being OoT Zelda's gimmick. Had it been ALttP Zelda or TP Zelda, Sheik probably never would've made it. Sheik and Roy are probably the luckiest in terms of timing.
 
D

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I will say though that there isn't a "need" for any character in Smash. That is a subjective opinion, and as such people will feel differently. Some people think the FE characters are fine and want more, some are sick of them and and more variety. Some people would like more Zelda and some think it's fine where it is, same with Kirby.

IMO it would be nice to see more Zelda and Kirby. They are huge franchises for Nintendo that in my opinion could give the game a lot in terms of variety, moveset potential, and overall fun. I disliked seeing the amount of FE we got simply because it lacks variety in my eyes. IMO FE has it just as bad as Zelda does: Zelda has three Links and is missing popular and very unique side characters, while FE has four characters that are extremely similar to each other and is filled with nothing but swords when the franchise has an abundance of weapons to choose from. I would like to see better done for both franchises, but that is simply my preferences and opinion, which is by no means fact. Some are perfectly happy with the way things currently are, and that's fine. There really isn't a right or wrong in this, it comes down to what character each person wants, which of course is gonna vary from person to person.
 
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MasterOfKnees

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Zelda's representation certainly isn't bad, but at this point no series is poorly represented in terms of playable characters, there are absolutely no pressing needs left. Like, at worst there are some series that could warrant a newcomer, like Kirby and Xenoblade, but it's nothing like Metroid and DKC's situations going into Ultimate, they are still fine as is.

The same can be said of Zelda, there's nothing wrong with what it has, but when you look at the potential newcomers for it it's also a bit of a shame it's being overlooked, because there are a lot of cool options there, and it's been a long time since we got a unique newcomer too.
 

Flyboy

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Well, characters are the biggest way to promote a series. I haven't seen anyone claim FE has been treated poorly for having only three stages and a fewer number of ATs and items than KI, AC, and (surprisingly) EarthBound.
This is probably what irritates me about FE rep in Smash. I love that we get the characters we do because I love FE but like...why do we only have Lyn as the assist trophy? This is the perfect way to add fan favorite characters like Hector, Tharja, Anna, Camilla - characters I'd love to play as but understand that there's a lot of FE characters already. It'd give them a cool role and pop fans of the series.

I guess I'm also of the opinion that being an assist trophy isn't a bad thing, even if some of them I'd prefer playable. I'd love a Phoenix Wright assist trophy for example even if he's my number one want.

I dunno, the double standard is strange to me.
 

amazonevan19

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I would argue Bandana Dee is really the only main fighter that HAS to be in based on merit and series representation needs. The main Kirby four should be in smash no question.

Apart from that, though, in terms of necessity, I agree with y'all in that we're starting to get into the "they'd be cool to see in smash" territory as opposed to "it's criminal they're not in smash" territory.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Honestly, I kinda get why people seem to act like characters are the only/best way to represent things.

That doesn’t mean it’s true.

As Frostwraith Frostwraith said, characters have to start at a base. This is a video game that has to function. Randomly throwing things from a game into a fighting moveset just really doesn’t speak to game design with Smash, or actively ignores it. The moves have to make sense, they have to be cohesive and serve a sort of purpose.

Characters themselves represent the games they come from. That’s kinda the point of adding characters from all these popular games. However, I still truly believe that the idea of “reps” is silly and out of context.

Characters, in my humble opinion, should represent themselves first. They should do things they’re known for, but that also flow into one cohesive moveset. This probably shouldn’t change too drastically between titles, as you want players who like the play style to not be all that deterred from playing that character. This is why I always play Mario, no matter the Smash i’m playing.

When you have options of stages, music, assist trophies, regular trophies, and items, I think it’s silly to put all the weight of representation of games themselves on characters when really, there’s so much more to those games than the characters.

Zelda is nothing without Hyrule, everyone knows that. Sure, the characters are the focus, but Zelda is also a game with several different art styles and settings. Smash should honor that rather than making moves themselves reflect games they come from.

Otherwise, we’re looking at a Link that can also use the Ocarina, a Toon Link with a Leaf Glide, or any character with Z targeting, which may sound good in theory, but may not translate well or balance well in Smash.

Just something to think about. Just because a character CAN do something or represent something doesn’t mean it would work well or make sense in the context of Super Smash Bros.
 

culumon

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There is no "mainstays only" rule for series with rotating casts. At the time of Smash 4's project plan, Rosalina was a major character in ONE main series Mario title. Just one. She made a cameo in Galaxy 2, paid her dues in some of the sports games, and that was it. And that was enough for Sakurai to say "I want to include this character in Smash Bros as a unique fighter". Despite the fact that at the time there was zero reason to believe she'd ever be prominent again. The fact she made a playable appearance in a main series game a mere year before Sm4sh's release was nothing more than serendipity.

I love Rosalina, and I'm super glad she's in. She's an important part of modern Mario's identity and I think it's great that part of the series' history has character representation a in Smash. But she wasn't a mainstay at the time, and if you wanna talk pure iconography, Skull Kid handily beats her, to my mind.
 

DaybreakHorizon

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The same could be said for Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Mario, DK, Metroid, or just about any franchise in Smash. No FE character is consistent in their series either except for Marth, who is already in the game. Ike, Robin, Corrin, Roy, Chrom, and the others are one offs, just like Zelda characters. Those same Zelda characters have followings just as big if not a little bigger than those FE characters. Midna, Tingle, Skull Kid, and lots of others are all contenders for new Zelda reps and are easily recognizable. Saying one series gets to have one offs while the others don't is cherry picking. By this logic, Sheik should have never made it in.
Not necessarily. I already explained Pokémon and Fire Emblem in my original post, but here are the rest:
  • Mario is an iconic series and to be honest, all of the characters outside of maybe Rosalina warrant inclusion. Even then, Rosalina has made appearances in other Mario games besides Galaxy, such as 3D World.
  • DK is perfectly fine. Donkey Kong is iconic in general, Diddy represents DKC, and K. Rool has raw fan demand on his side.
  • Metroid is also perfectly fine. Samus is iconic in general, Zero Suit Samus could maybe be seen as a one off, but I think she got lucky more than anything. Ridley has raw fan demand, and Dark Samus was both easy to make and represents Prime.
  • The Smash Fire Emblem bunch are highly popular, and have been playable and/or referenced in many games outside of their original ones. The entire Outrealms in Fire Emblem Awakening, Outrealms Encounters specifically for the Smash Bunch in Fates, and the Illusions in Shadows of Valentia. Additionally, they're pretty popular in Fire Emblem Heroes as well, with all of them having many alts (though the same could be said about characters like Lyn, Celica, Hector, etc.).
It's not cherrypicking, it's different circumstances for different series. The fact is that Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are the only important characters in the Legend of Zelda franchise, and anyone else is scraping the bottom of the barrel.
She's also a recurring character, if you want to make that argument. I would love her tbh.

Hotter take: At this point? Every series is basically represented well enough. I think Dixie and Bandana Dee are the only outliers that really need to be in IMO (other than Rex but we all agree he's dlc regardless pretty much.) The rest is just extra.

Honestly, name me a character that you think should be in purely in terms of merit alone from a first party other than those two/three. Medusa or Hades maybe?

We're getting into the range of characters that people want just because they like them, not because they NEED to represent the series. Waluigi, Geno, Skull Kid/Any Zelda rep. And that's fine.
I would agree that Toon Zelda/Tetra warrants inclusion. But that's it really. I also agree on your hotter take. All of the "Nintendo All-Stars" are already in, and we don't necessarily need any more.
Lucario because I want to die
Why act so emo all of a sudden (not saying you are emo, so no offense)?
Whoosh.
 
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D

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Honestly, if moving forward we're gonna start barring characters that are one offs, then who's left to add? Everyone who has a major recurring role is already in Smash and has been for a long time. Half of the roster are all one offs or niche characters. By this logic, Geno, Rex and Pyra, Skull Kid, Bandana Dee, and many more should never get in. The argument that one-offs are fine for certain franchises only really doesn't make sense to me, and needlessly limits who you could ever add.
 

DarthEnderX

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Sure, but did people care about Snake before his PS1 game? That's the game people liked and the ports to his games before that were terrible.
Yes people cared about Metal Gear before Solid. Just like people cared about Final Fantasy before 7. Granted, those games achieved new heights of popularity for those franchises, but they were both still liked before.

And saying Metal Gear on NES was terrible is some bull**** revisionist history. It only SEEMS terrible now because people have actually seen the original MSX version. At the time, Metal Gear was a GREAT NES game. It was so popular they made a NA-only sequel. Which is what made Kojima decide to continue the franchise when he found out it existed.
 

TheCJBrine

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If Rosalina is fine, there's no reason mai boi Skull Kid can't be in.

Rosalina was in spinoffs and served as a cameo in Galaxy 2 after her one major role in Galaxy, with her playable appearance in 3D World being unknown to the player until they beat the true final levels after you beat the maingame.
 
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