Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[IsmaR]

I skimmed and stopped skimming at Pichu can pack a Light Ball.

 

[_clinton]

Oh well...everyone makes mistakes...

 

[Diddy Kong]

It's not about how big Pikachu is, it's what he can do. Honestly, Pikachu just destroys Olimar. Light Ball gives Pika power which is strong as hell. So strong I found he actually should've won against Falco.

Pikachu's Thunder/ Tbolt are the strongest in the game. Olimar is having difficulties against things the size of Pika, let alone Pikachu's power. Light Ball doesn't only increase Special attack, but also physical attacks. One Volt Tackle would easily be enough to bring Olimar to hell and back again.

 

[the king of murder]

TM's have been allowed for a while back. In PMD games pokes can fully utilize tm's without trainer assistance. Trainer school npc on the main games even makes a remark how pokemon are smart enough to use items on their own. Personally I haven't used tutor moves for these pokes tho, as the only way to have tutor moves is to have human tutor a pokemon while tm's are found from the wild in both main and pmd games.

Alright then.

While seismic toss might be a contact move shur, Toxic is not and 85% accuracy is not too bad, only misses occasionally. Below 80% is where it gets iffy. Besides it can be boosted with wide lens to 95%, which is sure to hit dedede. Distance doesn't have much to do with it tho, unless ddd goes out of bounds like airborne as he's not agile enough to dodge things (and jiggs being the same size can spray toxic quite far in ddd's measurements and ddd is not too much of a jumper, least not a fast one).

He is a good jupmper. Not as good as others but yeah. He clearly does jump high and does multiple jumps in Kirby games. Gravity might be a problem though.

Distance does much more than you think. If you keep a good distance, you have more time to react to an attack. It is a lot harder to hit a target that is far away from you than a target that stands right in front of you. Also D3 has ranged weapons so Jiggs will be busy blocking those attacks for a while.

And Jiggs is no speed monster either. In fact she is not faster than D3. Distance is an important issue here.

While steel-typing is immune to poison, the pokemon itself is of a steel type, meaning it's made of steel and/or has steel qualities in it's whole body. A simple mask or hammer certainly won't protect ddd against spray of poison. >_> Pokes are immune because they are not affected by the toxins like poison types or immunity-pokes aren't, not because they can block it. It even says "it does not affect the pokemon", it says nothing about blocking and with jiggs spraying over ddd's size of poisonous substance on top of him, he can't seriously manage to block all of it. And I doubt the poison just disappears if it hits his hammer or mask.

But his hammer and mask are made of steel. If D3 swings his hammer at Toxic than his hammer wont get affected by toxic at all. THATS what I meant with blocking.

You cannot prove that Toxic is that big. And you cannot prove that Jiggs is at the same size as D3. Viper got it right.

And what makes you assume ddd even deals much, if at all damage to jiggs just cause jiggs doesn't have much defences? Jiggs takes blows from much much stronger opponents of much bigger size and survives, for example jiggs can take a stone edge from adamant tyranitar and survive with 1/4 of health left. That's 403 attack + stab from 100 base power attack there , stone edge is when you get stabbed by a sharpened stone which I imagine would be super painful coming from a 134 base attack, over 200kg and 2metres tall stone lizard pokemon that also gets stab boost and said to bring down mountains with it's arms. >_> DDD's hammer has nothing on tyranitar lol. If kirby is about 20cm tall and ddd's a bit larger and puff is 50cm... that makes the hammer around 1/3-1/4 of jiggs size? Really, jiggs shrugs off aqua tail from gyarados (the very same poke that destroys cities on a rampage and caused the lake of rage incident) with one third of health left and survives an Outrage from adamant Salamence. That's 120 base power attack with stab from 405 attack stat. DDD's hammer starts to seem very puny in comparison. <_<

Jiggs only manages to take those attacks if she has full (special)defense EVs(252)+KP EVs, 31 DVs and a positive nature for defense (which means another state has to suffer) and then she will survive with a very low health. But we are talking about her full potential so this shoulnt be a problem

And is D3 strong?
I can prove it indirectly.
There are plenty of things.

1. If Kirby gets the hammer ability (which is very rare) than you can see that Kirby holds the same hammer that D3 is always holding. And in most cases you get your hammer ability from D3 anyway. This hammer gives you an instant KO if you use it on all the normal enemys and it does heavy damage to bosses.

2. In the Snake Codec it is said that one swing of that hammer can level an entire building. And Snake himself stated how heavy it looks. He couldnt even imagine to swing that hammer all by himself. Of course you can say that Smash is not canon. But this case is special. Sakurai is the creator of both Kirby and Smash. That means Sakurai has to know what power D3 has in his game. He is the creator of him and Smash after all.

3. D3 can create a liitle earthquake if he is hitting the ground.

You can still assume that D3 is weak. I didnt prove it directly and I stated my opinion. It should give you an idea how strong he is.

Seriously you underestimate D3 way too much. He has more abilitys than just swinging his hammer around.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Hmm yeah it sounds pretty powerful, but Jigglypuff as a Pokemon has an enourmous movepool which will help her a lot. It TMs and other moves weren't allowed, DeDeDe would likely win.

But now Jiggz has Toxic, Sub, and other overpowered moves.. the match up is pretty difficult to estimate. It's basically a weak *** with a lot of options (Jigglypuff) vs a strong guy with rather limited options (King DeDeDe). Both are slow so that's already ruled out.

However, I think some characters really need to be looked at realisitcally here. Most of us are just favoring our favorites here. I know that if I wasn't here, DK and Diddy would've lost a lot of matches. Because nobody knows **** about them apperantly. I'm seeing that Wario and King DeDeDe lose a lot of matches, but they might be better than we all think.

 

[the king of murder]

Hmm yeah it sounds pretty powerful, but Jigglypuff as a Pokemon has an enourmous movepool which will help her a lot. If TMs and other moves weren't allowed, DeDeDe would likely win.

But now Jiggz has Toxic, Sub, and other overpowered moves.. the match up is pretty difficult to estimate. It's basically a weak *** with a lot of options (Jigglypuff) vs a strong guy with rather limited options (King DeDeDe). Both are slow so that's already ruled out.

However, I think some characters really need to be looked at realisitcally here. Most of us are just favoring our favorites here. I know that if I wasn't here, DK and Diddy would've lost a lot of matches. Because nobody knows **** about them apperantly. I'm seeing that Wario and King DeDeDe lose a lot of matches, but they might be better than we all think.

Jiggs only learns Substitute through Move Tutor, right?

But I agree with you.

The ZSS vs D3 match-up is a good example that D3 is way too underestimated. There were a a lot of pro-ZSS people who didnt know D3s abilitys and only one person was supporting D3 but non of those people listened to him/her.The match-up was decided too fast and nobody thought what D3 could possibly do. And there are other charas as well that are way too underestimated.

 

[REL38]

@Clinton

Well, the Emperor Bulblax is largest in Pikmin 1, but its girth only makes it appear so.

The Pileated Snarget towers over Olimar and is hands down the tallest enemy in the Pikmin games.

I've played through Pikmin 2 many times over and I've seen very few enemies reach a foot in height.
Only a select few bosses reach a foot or near it.
I'd say Pika would be a bit taller than most all bosses in Pikmin 2.


iirc the Empress Bulblax can only be affected by Bitter Spray when it is in its sleeping state. Where it curls up and allows for the entire body to be exposed to the spray.
When awake, it's body is spread out enough that it's not fully covered by the spray and thusly not affected.
I say the same will apply to Pika.
The girth Pika has mixed with its height will prevent the spray from covering his entire body and take affect.
Given, Pika's girth isn't that of the Bulblax, it would still be enough to prevent immobilization.


The manner Pikmin n' Olimar defeat enemies usually revolves around baiting, counter-attacks and retreating (if you wanna keep your Pikmin total intact)
This won't work here as Pika is hardly slow, more than likely takes no hefty cool-down from physical attacks and can shake/roll the Pikmin away the moment any latch on.
He can even run off a good distance and shake off the latched on Pikmin and dispose of these strays with ease as they are too far away for Olimar to command anymore.

Going by how Samo does, give Pika Leftovers and he can do this to widfle away at Olimar's Pikmin and regain the damage.
Giving Pika Toxic and Surf would also allow for more options to kill Pikmin


I'd say Pika's range is decent, nut then again, I'm talking a lot more about physical assaults.
This is no problem as Pika can dash, strike and get out of the range Olimar has quick enough that Olimar and his Pikmin won't do much any damage.
Olimar's Pikmin army is essentially a sitting duck, defending against a large foe that's far too quick to dodge against.


To address a point I forgot to point out, Olimar's rocket punch is nigh useless.
It takes well over 3 minutes to take out a Bulbear (not even a boss) with punches.
Pika sure won't be standing still.
Olimar's punches won't do much of anything to Pika.


@D3

I don't see why D3 can't spam rockets and keep distance that way.

 

[YesNoMaybeSo]

Olimar and D3 suck

 

[Mr. Game and Pichu]

Pikachu doesn't have to do much. As stated already, Pika can just maneuver fast around ad dodge the pikmin and can electrocute all his non yellow pikmin in one shot. Olimar isn't affected, providing he has the Dream Material. The only thing effective for Olimar against Pika is the Ultra Bitter Spray, which only lasts for so long. Even then, if Pika has alot of Health EVs and IVs, it would be hard to take em down. Even for the non-yellow pikmin and Olimar, Pika has a huge arsenal of attacks. Surf. Done. Too bad... Olimar and his games rock.

Pikachu +1, Olimar -1.

 

[_clinton]

Pikachu's Thunder/ Tbolt are the strongest in the game. Olimar is having difficulties against things the size of Pika, let alone Pikachu's power. Light Ball doesn't only increase Special attack, but also physical attacks. One Volt Tackle would easily be enough to bring Olimar to hell and back again.

Again...you are factoring in what Pikachu's game mechs. allow it to do compared to what the canon info like the pokedex says about the bloody thing...oh…and Olimar can get flattened by things around the Pikachu and recover it off in given time if given a chance…

A. There is no way Pikachu is better with electricity canon wise then plenty of other certain electric pokemon out there...if you compare the entries…It’s adult form Raichu can knock out things that can be 11 ft tall and weigh in at 2.7 and 4.5 tonnes (5952-9921 pounds) according to the dex…just that thing right there clearly beats any example of power its younger form Pikachu has…but going on…

B. You need an unknown amount of Pikachu in a group together just to get a lightning storm out of them...while some pokemon ARE pretty much making storms just by themselves...
Zapdos-Has free control over said storms, and can produce them
Raikou-It enbodies the stuff itself that I'm talking about...

There is a lack of electric legendary pokes...but maybe I should talk about others for a bit…

Pikachu’s pouches are the things weapon for defense huh? And the tail is a mini sort of lightning rod?
Well something like Jolteon has its whole ****ing body as a weapon by comparison with what it can do with its electric power…

C. You think Pikachu pokemon have the strongest Thunder/Tbolt in the game?
Did you forget to factor in the other boosts that other pokemon can get as well or what? You know it is sort of unfair to give only Pikachu an item when you are comparing it to other pokemon in regards to things like damage output…

For example Magnezone for starters if packing a modest nature with 31 IVs and 252 EVs in special attack and packing only a 10% boost to the special attack stat is only truly 3 points off from Pikachu's (holding the light ball with the same set up) highest possible amount…

Of course...Magnezone is good at things such as defying gravity, being attracted to machines, screws up radio waves/said machines and a whole bunch of other things dealing with human life that pretty much forces a trainer to keep it in a pokeball while in town (I wonder if that will be true with HG/SS?)

On another note…I really wish Raichu could use the light ball…don’t you?
Raichu>Pika in awesome points...although even with the light ball in Pika's meta-game (Which it really only has Because it is the mascot of the pokemon world in the 1st place...so it has special attention for attempting to us it...unlike Jigglypuff for some reason) I still think Raichu is a lot better than Pikachu...although sweeping with that thing is awesome (but not as awesome as a Magikarp vs. God sweep...or a Pidgeot sweep)

The Pileated Snarget towers over Olimar and is hands down the tallest enemy in the Pikmin games.

I've played through Pikmin 2 many times over and I've seen very few enemies reach a foot in height.
Only a select few bosses reach a foot or near it.
I'd say Pika would be a bit taller than most all bosses in Pikmin 2.

Pikachu is a mouse pokemon…that is slightly comparable in size to various small dog breeds…as in bigger than a Chihuahua completely (4-6 lbs, 6-10 inches)
In height they on average with their 16 inches slightly beat a Bull Terrier…but weigh less (24-36 lbs, 14 to 16 inches)

Anyway…did you see this?
http://www.pawfectchihuahuas.com/ChihuahuaSize.html

Some of the treasure’s Olimar finds can easily be compared to the size of a can of soda/larger than that…and some of the foes Olimar fights have clearly eaten things around the size of a 12 oz can…ROB’s head for example…

However, if your guide is right…and the Pileated Snarget is the tallest foe Olimar fights (yeah no…plenty of other foes are a lot bigger than it even in height…you can’t tell me certain spider foes that you fight are smaller than it)…you are aware that it can be harmed by bitter spray very easily despite it’s height pretty much being equal to a Pikachu’s?

When awake, it's body is spread out enough that it's not fully covered by the spray and thusly not affected.

[/QUOTE]

Yeah…according to this:
http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Empress_Bulblax

Although risky, the Bulblax can be petrified if the spray is released on the middle of its elongated torso.

It says nothing about it having to be sleeping only…
As in…you have plenty of room to work with if talking about spray now…I do of course see Pikachu as fatter than a Pileated Snarget…but…I don’t see how that would matter much…Olimar’s spray after all covers a range of things by 20x20 inches is my guess…of course…what other foes can’t be harmed by bitter spray if you don’t mind my asking?

This won't work here as Pika is hardly slow, more than likely takes no hefty cool-down from physical attacks and can shake/roll the Pikmin away the moment any latch on.

You are aware that when the creatures are tired…your pokemon sort of hold them down right?
Oh and Pikachu’s can become tired quite easily:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pikachu_(Pokémon)

It occasionally uses an electric shock to recharge a fellow Pikachu that is in a weakened state.

Their electric build up is = to their current health…
They can lose that health as well of course:

It has small electric sacs on both its cheeks. If threatened, it looses electric charges from the sacs.

Kind of funny how the Pika family of pokemon have to maintain a balance in their electric energy (too little=tired, too much=danger to even their own kin) I wonder why that makes sense?

Oh and again…pokemon stats vary…there is no 100% true set example yet…I mean look at this:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pokéthlon

Pikachu is actually FASTER in the speed stat for this thing than Raichu is on average in that thing (oh and Pichu is as well)…that clearly contradicts what the RPG part of the mechs. says about them…in the same game

And again…other games like PMD don’t even have a speed stat it seems…but this is a different set of stats in a canon game…so don’t try and blow this off like how some people have tried to do with PMD

Going by how Samo does, give Pika Leftovers and he can do this to widfle away at Olimar's Pikmin and regain the damage.
Giving Pika Toxic and Surf would also allow for more options to kill Pikmin

Again on the moves and how a good chunk of them don’t make any sense for why they have them (Heat Wave Pidgeot/flying pokemon in general having it again is one of those things that doesn’t make sense other than clearly being put in to counter a common counter for them…steel pokemon that is}

(And Pikachu clearly having surf doesn’t make sense IMO…other than to be a big **** you to potential ground type switch ins in regards to the metagame...oh and Pikachu gets to be on a surf board when doing the move as well…I do think that has to count for something ^_^)

Oh and sense we are talking about other options and you seem to think Olimar will have other pikmin types out even though Pikachu is a pure electric…what is stopping Olimar from poisoning Pikachu with a force feeding from a white Pikmin or something like that?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Pikachu might get poisioned or whatever, but the thing remains that Olimar dies much, much, much quicker. A simple Quick Attack only would be enough to kill Olimar I'm guessing. Pikachu isn't a sitting duck, waiting to get attacked like most of Olimar's enemies. Instead, it's supposed to be really fast. There's no way Olimar can simply beat Pikachu.

 

[Crystanium]

Pikachu might get poisioned or whatever, but the thing remains that Olimar dies much, much, much quicker. A simple Quick Attack only would be enough to kill Olimar I'm guessing. Pikachu isn't a sitting duck, waiting to get attacked like most of Olimar's enemies. Instead, it's supposed to be really fast. There's no way Olimar can simply beat Pikachu.

Olimar has a total of 200 Pikmin with him. Also, if Pikachu was going to attack Olimar instead (which I doubt would happen, as the offenders are the Pikmin), he could just use his Rush Boots to get out of the way. Olimar could bring like 150 Yellow Pikmin with him, 25 White Pikmin to poison Pikachu and 25 Purple Pikmin, which can lift objects 10 times their own weight. They also can stun or gravely injure small creatures, due to their heavy weight. Or, Olimar could just bring 200 Yellow Pikmin, and Pikachu won't be able to harm them with electricity when they start latching onto Pikachu. Again, I think you're undermining a character like Olimar, simply because of his size. See Prejudice For Pecs for details.

Mario vs. Bowser
Link vs. Ganondorf
Samus vs. Kraid
Ness vs. Giygas
Lucas vs. Mageto
Kirby vs. King Dedede

 

[BSP]

Personally, unless there are specifically 200 possible pikmin in the game, I say oli should be able to go beyond that number.

 

[PowerBomb]

Do you know how hard it would be to command 999 Pikmin? Too many, too much. Unless of course, Olimar CAN do it without losing too many Pikmin, that would be a great boost.

Pikachu can just use Slam on the Pikmin. Slam, Surf (non-blue), Discharge (non-yellow), Double Team. Perhaps that would work? Don't non-yellow Pikmin automatically die when hit with electricity?

 

[Mr. Game and Pichu]

... Olimar can only have 100 Pikmin at a time

 

[IsmaR]

It's not so much the size that makes Olimar lose this solely. Pika just has the advantage in speed and power, could repeatedly destroy waves of Pikmen, and could avoid and attack from long distance. Add that he's a mini-generator with the Light Ball, has a priority attack, and has a more than suitable move set for this case, and you have dozens of fried/drowned/squished Pikmen.

 

[Pokemon Z RPG]

Here's the thing. You all make the yellow Pikmin sound like superman, when really they are just as easy to kill as a fire ant in real life. It's called Pikachu stepping on them, easy as that. If they tried getting in the air by Olimar's ship, simply volt tackle (if it is well-trained) and that should take them down; Olimar, Pikmin and all. Even if all 100 of the Pikmin managed to leech onto Pikachu, Pikachu could shake them off with a simple quick attack. Olimar & Pikmin stand no chance.

 

[REL38]

I played Pikmin 2 again and found out that the Bitter Spray does work on the Empress Bulblax (the largest overall enemy) despite my doubts.
(yeah, i doubt certain specific wiki's)

Given this, I'm 100% positive Pika would be immobilized by the Bitter Spray.
If Pika goes physical at all, then Olimar can potentially dead-lock Pika to his death.
The Bitter Spray lasts around 5-7 seconds.
Olimar hypes up Pikmin offense with Spicy Spray and has them swarm Pika's immobile body.
Olimar sprays on another dose of Bitter Spray every 5 seconds (rinse, repeat) to keep Pika in his immobile state almost indefinitely (until he uses up all 99 Bitter Sprays)
Mix this with the continual doses of Spicy Spray and I have no doubts Pika will die before all Bitter Sprays are used.
Physical combat is extremely dangerous as Olimar can dead-lock Pika.
(DK vs D3 lol)


So on the flipside, Pika should rely exclusively on ranged attacks.
Discharge for non-Yellows (electricity is auto-death)
Toxic, Surf for Yellows
Once all Pikmin are gone, Olimar can't do anything other than stall with his Bitter Sprays, but that's really just dragging out the inevitable.

idunno what you guys have to say about how many Pikmin Olimar can command here.
In-game, it's always been 100 max Pikmin.
I've been going off that many.

I don't see why Pika would even consider eating any of the Pikmin.
Force feeding the Whites just sounds silly.

I don't see how Olimar can outrun a Pika.
With the speed upgrade, he doesn't go much faster than a cockroach, if that.
Pikmin run much slower than that. Whites are a bit faster and Purple pretty slow.


Also, to answer your questions, Clinton, the Bulblax was the only enemy that I recalled that couldn't be affected by the Bitter Spray.
I was more so using the Pileated Snarget to compare height with Pika and the Bulblax with Pika's girth.
But that's moot as I was mistaken with the Bitter Spray.

I have no intention of arguing what makes sense in the Pokemon move pool.
That's not really my arguement.
I'm just relaying what TM's/HM's/whatever else Pika's being allowed here.

Titan Dweevil and Raging Long Legs come very close to Pileated Snarget, but I still see it as being the tallest of the enemies in Pikmin 2.

 

[Samochan]

Imo, pikachu with sub/discharge or shock wave/surf/filler move with light ball/lefties equipped could would just **** olimar. The pikmins would have hard time breaking the sub in one go as you need to deal certain amount of damage to break a sub normally, unless ofc spicy spray is used, letting pikachu get attacks even at close range (like tank a hit, hit back and getaway) and too many for olimar to stand and would also protect against bitter spray. =) Discharge or shock wave would attack all the non-yellow pikmins for nice damage and surf would take out the yellows. Pikachu never even needs to get close to olimar, both shock wave and surf have enough range and when he does, he has a sub on so pikmins can only try to beat that sub in vain or beat it but deal no damage to pika himself (leeching doesn't work against sub either, note sub is immune to leech seed).

Sub is so broken, even outside pokeworld lol.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Wouldn't Surf just flush Olimar away? Even if he would survive it, there's just too much water for such a little man to handle. He wouldn't even be able to find Pikachu again.

 

[REL38]

Wouldn't Surf just flush Olimar away? Even if he would survive it, there's just too much water for such a little man to handle. He wouldn't even be able to find Pikachu again.

It'll just knock him over.

His suit is a dual scuba suit.
Going underwater is no problem.​

Except he just sinks and walks on the underwater ground in-game
dunno what to say about that though.

 

[PowerBomb]

@_clinton: Why should we accept statistical system differences from Pokemon when the non-main ones are seen usually once or twice and then thrown away, while the main statistical system has been there, unchanged, since Gen I?

Pokeathlon is just in HGSS; it's going to be gone next game. The contests were changed in DPPt, and removed in HGSS (with Pokeathlon being its replacement, using a different stat system). The subsets are usually just there once or twice, then removed or somewhat changed. They don't even have an impact on regular battling gameplay.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Pikachu use Iron Tail.... the captain is out. ._. ☆

 

[Diddy Kong]

^ Exactly. Why is this still a discussion? Olimar vs Jigglypuff, maybe... But vs Pikachu, Olimar stands no chance.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Still can't edit the OP yet, but here's the next MU.

Current Match-Up:
PICHU Vs. THE ICE DUO

Pichu Vs. Ice Climbers

ichu:, Vs.

Loser's Round 5, Match 12.

Overall Results

Wins +5:



Wins +4:

, , ,

Wins +3:



Wins +2:

, , , , , ,

Wins +1:

, :mewtwo:, , ,

Neutral:

, ,, ,

Loss -1:

, ichu:, , , , ,

Loss -2:

, , ,

Loss -3:

,

Loss -4:

,

Loss -5:

,

Loss -6:

 

[Pokemon Z RPG]

Pichu would win. If you ever watched the Pokemon TV show, you will see that every single time they try something Team Rocket are blown away by Pikachu's thunderbolt, thew Ice Climbers are human also, so Pichu could most likely do the same to them, even with their freezing powers, and hammers. I mean really.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

defiantly pichu, it may be a baby pokemon, but they can be trained indefinitely, all the way up to lvl 100, way over any humans possible strength level.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Pichu with Double Team, Thunder Wave / Quick Attack / Thunderbolt or Thunder would win over the Ice Climbers.

Volt Tackle for the lolz.

-Terywj

 

[_clinton]

Pikachu might get poisioned or whatever, but the thing remains that Olimar dies much, much, much quicker. A simple Quick Attack only would be enough to kill Olimar I'm guessing.

A. Olimar is by far more durable than his Pikmin...his suit for one thing is made out of “a metal that is so dense it defies the laws of physics” which isn’t that bad for a toy that reminds me of only a rockem sockem robot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j4RrxXztUU&feature=related

So…Him being “stomped or gnawed on only produces minimal pain” to him…plus his suit has a recovery system in it as well…

Oh and if you are wondering why a toy is made out of a material so dense it defies the laws of physics…I take it you haven’t looked at this yet:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale

Only…instead of them producing BS things like the Metroid series does with its stuff…Pikmin 2 does it on common things like rubber ducks (Olimar confused one for a giant space monster) that clearly are normal to us…which is sort of funny when you think about it…because overall…Olimar’s species of people clearly seem more advanced than we are if you 1st look at them…

What with them having space travel and such down to the point where normal people like Olimar (Not completely normal…he is worth something to the company he works for according to the cut scene…of course Louie has a value as well…of around 10% of the president’s yearly salary) can take vacations off their planet and visit other worlds…

So with that in mind…the 2nd game of the Pikmin series is clearly poking fun at the whole ”Sci-Fi Writers have no sense of scale thing” when you really look at it…I mean…stuff that is trash is worth money…

Still…Olimar only going through a minimal amount pain when crushed by rocks/creatures 100x his size is clearly not fake…the only thing that is fake is just the line with the material that is making up his suit being so dense it defies the laws of physics (it just clearly doesn’t defy the law of physics in case you don’t get the point that I’m saying)

I still want to know why you think Olimar will die in one quick attack when I’ve already pointed out before this that there are plenty of things around Pikachu’s size in the Pikmin games and they hardly OHKO Olimar...plus he clearly handles a lot of other things…like crash landing on a planet filled with high levels of toxic oxygen (which makes me wonder what the series is implying with the Pikmin Universe’s Earth…because Olimar does find a bunch of things that are familiar with the player…but you never see any humans)

B. Olimar's foes again aren't "sitting ducks" as you put it...the point of how you fight the foes in Olimar's game in the 1st place is to lure them into wasting their energy...as in screwing up their idea of eating you for lunch...

They are hardly just lying around defenseless...a lot of the foes also will hunt you down if given a chance when you enter their territory...and a lot of them have a large territory and do run through it…hell a certain amount of them that seem like they are just lying around are really just lying in wait for food to enter the area in order to jump it (Pileated Snagret for example)

Plus of course...I will admit that a lot of them are nocturnal as seen in Pikmin 1...however that didn't help those things in the end that much in case you have never seen the ending for Pikmin 1...where they come out to eat…but the Pikmin drive them away w/o Olimar’s help using the things they learned from him (They mimic Olimar in case you can’t tell…so it is only fair to assume they would learn from him)

That fact with the ending makes me feel…Olimar's presence screwed with the natural order of things on the Pikmin Earth in the end...because it is clear as day that Pikmin were the lowest on the food chain at the start of the 1st game...or at least pretty close to being completely ****ed as far as species go if you look at how the onion works…

BTW...it is shown that Pikmin can carry things that are at least 10x their weight...because Blue Pikmin can throw Purple Pikmin if needed...of course I don't know why I'm saying this...because we seem to be in agreement with comparing them to ants in the 1st place (at least in behavior). What with how they can learn and all that other stuff…

However, Purple can carry 10x the amount that the other ones can already carry and on top of that they are 10x stronger than Red Pikmin…so…what does that say about them?

... Olimar can only have 100 Pikmin at a time

What he said…although I also do feel that number of on screen pikmin is just a game mech. (for more than one reason…for one thing…limits in the amount of data that can be on at one time is just one issue…another reason is so the game isn’t too easy)

I personally don’t see why Olimar couldn’t command more than that number (or get more if they start to die)
I mean…commanding numbers isn’t that big of a deal…the pikmin and Olimar can’t speak with each other for starters (and the Pikmin language itself seems to be an example of a primitive language) already and he can command them just fine because of how they respond to him in the 1st place…

Here's the thing. You all make the yellow Pikmin sound like superman, when really they are just as easy to kill as a fire ant in real life.

Ah no…I’m not making them sound like superman…I’m just more realistic in my view of what a Pikachu can really do when looking at the pokedex…if anything…you guys are making a Pikachu sound stronger than it really is based off a bunch of game mechs. that clearly don’t agree with what the in game canon is saying about it

A. I mean…as far as the Pika family of pokemon go…Raichu is by far more powerful…you need a large group of Pikachu in order for anything impressive to happen…but we have Raichu busting up things 8x his size and 200x his weight if given a chance…

Only…they are considered pretty much EVEN by the tier list for the game because going by game mechs. because of Pikachu clearly being made to be better than it really is…because of the things popularity…

B. Again…the phrase “Magikarp sweep” that I’ve been writing means something people…as in…do you really think a Magikarp could beat a bunch of “god” pokemon if this was based off it’s real canon for the thing? I mean…things like Pichu can cause a respectable dent in the god pokemon as well based off the mechs if the thing is used right…

Anyway… how can you think the battle system is accurate to the real canon when things like those two examples I talked about have a possibility of happening/have happened?

Oh…and Olimar’s ship collided with a “meteor” in the 1st game and Olimar survived the fall to the planet itself with only a dazed look on his face…and the ship could be repaired after that…he is hardly wearing weak armor…and his ship is hardly made out of paper considering these facts (although Pikmin 2 has a different ship that is clearly not as good as Olimar’s personal ship…what with it being very old and such)

Although I still want to know why you think Olimar’s ship wouldn’t be an effective weapon when the thing has a tool in it that can blow up stars (Olimar only got hit by that meteor because of him zoning off or something like that)

http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Nova_Blaster

Naturally…looking earlier my point was of how Pikmin 2 is making fun of something like this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale

What with how a single C Duracell Battery is pretty much going to changed the future of Olimar’s home world with how much energy it has according to the 2nd game…they are clearly not serious with it…

But, I do feel Pikmin 1 was actually guilty of the trope…because there is a large list of parts Olimar has on his ship that are a bit “off” (although I don’t think they are nearly as crazy as the Nova Blaster…well…no…some of the are as much BS as the Nova Blaster)
http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Positron_Generator
http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Chronos_Reactor

So…how are we advanced again compared to his race of people in the 2nd game? ^_^
However, of course…they don’t seem 100% serious with the parts…like for example look at this:
http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Extraordinary_Bolt

Oh…and for another comparison on an older match with Olimar that he lost…Pichu can’t even hurt US with the energy it can build up…only at best surprise us…how did it win vs. Olimar again?

Again…the fact that you need a unknown amount of Pikachu to do anything impressive at all by the canon definition sort of also makes me think that a lone Pikachu couldn’t even hurt us that much as well…

I mean…going by the stats for the RPG part as in using the stuff you guys are trying to pass off as canon despite it not being a reliable part…there is a 14% difference between what a Pichu can do with its attack compared to Pikachu’s…not factoring in the Light Ball…because like I said before…that thing being in doesn’t make any sense when comparing Pikachu’s dex to Raichu’s…

…Given this, I'm 100% positive Pika would be immobilized by the Bitter Spray…
…Olimar sprays on another dose of Bitter Spray every 5 seconds (rinse, repeat) to keep Pika in his immobile state almost indefinitely (until he uses up all 99 Bitter Sprays)
Mix this with the continual doses of Spicy Spray and I have no doubts Pika will die before all Bitter Sprays are used.
Physical combat is extremely dangerous as Olimar can dead-lock Pika.
(DK vs D3 lol)

Well…I don’t think Olimar will have 99 sprays each again going back to my item comment with things that are dealing with stuff like invincibility items/time stopping items being in full use…but whatever…at least we are no longer arguing about the spray not working…

So on the flipside, Pika should rely exclusively on ranged attacks.
Discharge for non-Yellows (electricity is auto-death)
Toxic, Surf for Yellows
Once all Pikmin are gone, Olimar can't do anything other than stall with his Bitter Sprays, but that's really just dragging out the inevitable.

Again on the moves not making sense…Surf’s description implies for the games point out that the users have control over massive amounts of water…where in the Pokedex says Pikachu comes close to something of that power?

Oh and again…why would Olimar put out anything other than mostly yellow pikmin for this…with maybe a few exceptions?

Oh and I hardly see toxic as a major threat…considering how you can rescue Pikmin from hazards and stuff like that…what makes you think Pikmin will die right away from being covered in Pikachu product?

I don't see why Pika would even consider eating any of the Pikmin.
Force feeding the Whites just sounds silly.

The games canon clearly shows that the Pikmin are willing to die for Olimar for chances are because they see him as a “Pikmin of some sort” (IMO) but you are right…force feeding yourself to a “giant monster” does sound silly somewhat…even though the idea of killing yourself for a “cause” like for example the safety of your other kin is the idea behind it…and Pikmin do have proof that they will do it if they need to (If Ai no Uta’s translation is to be believed)

Oh and when I speak of cause…I’m serious about it…Pikachu has been seen to be a herbivore IMO (Pokedex talks about eating berries…plus it’s a mouse) and the Pikmin if anything are by far more plant-like than bug-like if you ask me for my personal opinion on them…and considering how the Pokemon world is full of living plants anyway for a source of food…I don’t see why a Pikachu would think it is strange to eat Pikmin if given a chance…although I’ll admit the dex entry does say that Pikachu likes to shock his food before eating it…so…at least the white Pikmin wouldn’t have to be digested while alive unlike some other creatures that kill them while whole ^_^

(Plus…I certainly don’t see why it is such a bad thing to actually give characters a reason to fight in this when you think about it…don’t you?)

I don't see how Olimar can outrun a Pika.
With the speed upgrade, he doesn't go much faster than a cockroach, if that.
Pikmin run much slower than that. Whites are a bit faster and Purple pretty slow.

Actually it has been shown in game that all of the pikmin are able to match the flowered white Pikmin in speed if they need to for some reason:
http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Napsack

Oh and about Pikachu’s speed…sure the games say he is fast by stats…but I have never seen anything insane being talked about with a Pikachu’s speed…unlike certain pokemon like Pidgeot, Rapidash, and Garchomp…as far as I'm can see...the thing chances are has the same speed that an oversize mouse would have...which I still see as fast...just not anything insane like you are making it sound...

I was more so using the Pileated Snarget to compare height with Pika and the Bulblax with Pika's girth.
But that's moot as I was mistaken with the Bitter Spray.

Well...the fact that the wiki says you need a "clear shot" to stun EB does show that the spray at least wouldn't chances are work on anything much bigger than them...so for anyone to try that argument with other characters gets shot down before it starts due to this info...

But still...no way is Pikachu close to EB's girth...the size comparison between your 10 year or so old trainer says a lot about Pikachu's girth...and it really is only his height that seems to be the main factor for Olimar...

I have no intention of arguing what makes sense in the Pokemon move pool.
That's not really my arguement.
I'm just relaying what TM's/HM's/whatever else Pika's being allowed here.

And I’m saying those moves dealing with TMs/HMs/whatever else Pika could learn are ok ONLY if there is no contradiction to the thing…I mean…something like Flash makes sense when you think about it (Raichu glows in the dark is a way on how you could back it up)

Titan Dweevil and Raging Long Legs come very close to Pileated Snarget, but I still see it as being the tallest of the enemies in Pikmin 2.

How again? (going to get pictures from the game and post them later if I have to to show you what I mean)

Why should we accept statistical system differences from Pokemon when the non-main ones are seen usually once or twice and then thrown away, while the main statistical system has been there, unchanged, since Gen I?

Yeah…the main statistical system has changed a lot sense gen 1…
The special split, new types, changes in moves, natures, the stats themselves because of the new EV system, items, the attack split…god I could go on more and more with this

But whatever…You know…I find this debate funny for a number of reasons…one of those reasons is because you guys refuse to accept things like the Pokemon Special (Manga) as canon just because it isn’t a game…

Which btw the creator of pokemon has this to say about it just so you know where you stand in refusing to accept it as canon just because it isn’t a game for this thread:

http://web.archive.org/web/20000622095516/www.vizkids.com/pokemon/adventures/characters.html

"This is the comic that most resembles the world I was trying to convey."
Satoshi Tajiri

This is sort of like how other things like Kirby have an anime made with a lot of input from Sakurai himself (Kirby not talking for starters) but people count it separate for whatever reason…

So…why haven’t we changed the original rules about this thread yet when I can clearly mention 2 non game sources as being more canon if anything than even their games are…if this thing is going to be true to their canon…you have to accept them…I mean…it’s not like the rule has to be ALL media about the stuff is canon…just examples that have proof from someone important accepting them (of course…guess what this would say about F-Zero as well…oh my…3 non game examples now…how about that?)

☆ Pikachu use Iron Tail.... the captain is out. ._. ☆

Congrats on proving my point again that Olimar is being underestimated by far…

Pokeathlon is just in HGSS; it's going to be gone next game. The contests were changed in DPPt, and removed in HGSS (with Pokeathlon being its replacement, using a different stat system). The subsets are usually just there once or twice, then removed or somewhat changed. They don't even have an impact on regular battling gameplay.

So…what about the fact where other games have had their systems still in it? PMD is going on to its 3rd generation now…the main series is going on to the 5th generation…

Oh and of course the side stuff could change with the games…oh and you complaining about the contests being changed is kind of funny…because it’s pretty much the same idea with the battle system (of course I’ll admit I haven’t played the 3rd gen games and I’ve never touched the contest stuff in the games…so I don’t really know if they are changed more or less than the game mechs.)

I’m sure you are aware that the pokemon world is very big now right? Of course not every area is going to have the same things I mean…do you see the Safari Zone in each area of the pokemon world?

Although TBH…the Pokeathlon actually looks kind of interesting to me…only because compared to older things like the contests…they looked so boring/stupid to me…so…a certain part of me wants to try them if I ever get a chance…of course I don’t really know enough about them yet…so who knows how they’ll last?

defiantly pichu, it may be a baby pokemon, but they can be trained indefinitely, all the way up to lvl 100, way over any humans possible strength level.

Except the Pokedex stats that the thing can't even cause real harm to a human...anyway this thread I really think needs to stop using characters like the ICs and such…because they really don’t have much/if any canon background to go on…so by default anyone vs. them seems to win with these things because of not knowing what they can do…

Wario’s is still worse as far as examples go…the bloody guy has a canon showing him to be faster/stronger than Mario…and having better power-ups/items at his disposal…but because no one in this thread knows anything about him it seems…he has lost matches to things like Pikachu and DK…

Of course Captain Falcon is the same way that the ICs are if you only go by game and none of his other canon info…which is just more proof that the “games only” rule really needs to be thrown out to let in for other media already As long as there is proof from someone who made the original stuff is accepting with it

I mean…I could think of 3 things that are seen as being made with input from the original (Kirby’s Anime), has an original creator approval rating sticker (Pokemon’s Manga), or links with the story from another source other than games (F-Zero)

Oh and when I say 3 things for this…I’m still lying…there are 4 things really that I can think of off the top of my head (Metroid has more than a few things out there that tie into the games which aren’t the games…as in…it is in the block F-Zero is in…I haven’t read any of the other media for the Mother games though…so I have no opinion on that yet)

 

[Diddy Kong]

THe point stays the same. Pikachu's far too strong for Olimar. The dex entries refer to Pikachus from about level 3 to level 30 or something. It's not too hard to assume a level 100 Pikachu will be a lot harder to beat. Olimar would be able to defeat a wild Pikachu maybe, but not a full trained one.

Just like how Pichu wouldn't be able to harm a normal human... That Pichu in the dex is most likely still 'baby level'. Somewhere around level 1 to 15, when fighting Pidgeys, Caterpies and Rattatas is still considered dangerous for Pichu. A full trained level 100 Pichu could deffinatly kill a normal human pretty easy.

Besides, what if Olimar got hit by Thunder Wave? 100% gurantee of paralysis. And please explain how Olimar is going to pass through Thunder, Thunderbolt, Surf or Volt Tackle? Hell, even Rain Dance would likely mean trouble for Olimar.

And DK > Wario btw.

 

[Samochan]

Pikachu used substitute
Olimar used Bitter spray
The attack was ineffective!
Pikachu uses surf!
*OHKO*
****load of pikmins fainted!
Olimar is out of Pikmin! Olimar was whited out!

 

[PowerBomb]

_clinton, I was stating my opinion. I don't see how that's complaining. >_>

The stats don't change, do they? Actually, they've changed ONCE, from RBY to GSC, but FrLg nulls that. The Battle System hasn't completely changed unless you're talking about double battles, which isn't that much of a big deal. The moves have changed dramatically, of course, from 3rd gen to fourth gen.

Stats haven't changed at all, really, which is what I was talking about...

My eyes are hurting really bad right now, since I just woke up... -_-

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I don't know much about Pichu.

Ice Climbers don't have much of a background. There's not much to know about them.

 

[REL38]

Pichu got this.

@Clinton

I personally have absolutely no idea how Surf would even happen when there's no water to be seen.
Just like how the image of a Substitute taking hits from the opponent while Pikachu is transported into some parallel dimmension whenver an attack is directed at him is absolutely beyond me.
It really makes no sense.

It makes no sense just like Marth dodging a time stop.
Kinda makes me wonder where and how the fine line of "added realism" applies here . . . .


Anyways, a mixed army of Pikmin will be eliminated with any of Pikachu's electrical attacks.
Electricity is an insta-kill upon contact for non-Yellows.
An all Yellow is still very much susceptible to water-based attacks and Toxic.

Toxic isn't very useful and only stated it as an option.
Surf is great. The force would knock em' all over the place leavin' many dead before Olimar can reach em'.
Rain Dance is meh. Rain drops don't seem threatening.


I don't see Pikachu eating White Pikmin as they'd be fried and become ghost souls after death
But just to note, White's poison tends to have less to almost unnoticable affect on certain enemies.
The Burrowing Snarget recieves very little damage from eating them wherelse insect-based enemies are damaged more.
Being non-insect seems to add immunity.

Snarget is a bird/snake hybrid.
Pikachu is a mammal.

Still, they'd be dead long before any of this happens


From hands-on experience, the Pileated Snarget towers over Olimar when you pan out the camera.
The Titan Dweevil is hardly taller, but a very close in height.

I personally don't see a reason to giving characters motives to fight.
Seems very unneeded and can potentially add some psychological factors that aren't needed.


@Diddy

Dream Materal protects from all electrical attacks.
Shock Wave is electrical.
No paralysis

Thunder and Thunderbolt also falll into this catergory for both Olimar and Yellows.

Rain drops won't do squat.
Surf would knock him away, but that's it.


@Samo
I chuckle'd

 

[UncleSam]

Pikachu used substitute
Olimar used Bitter spray
The attack was ineffective!
Pikachu uses surf!
*OHKO*
****load of pikmins fainted!
Olimar is out of Pikmin! Olimar was whited out!

Olimar would still have Blue Pikmin.
...
just sayin, still kind of funny tho

 

[§leepy God]

Pikachu used substitute
Olimar used Bitter spray
The attack was ineffective!
Pikachu uses surf!
*OHKO*
****load of pikmins fainted!
Olimar is out of Pikmin! Olimar was whited out!

♪ LMAO, that's one way to finish Olimar. †

♪ Also, yay Jigglypuff won, though I didn't think she would. ^_^; †

 

[Diddy Kong]

I wish more matchups would be discussed like this. At least we now have a better idea of what Olimar can do. Maybe he'll win more often now? I have an idea that he might be able to beat Yoshi.

 

[the king of murder]

I can't believe D3 lost to Jigglypuff after I listed all his abilitys and the possibilitys to go equal with her. But I have to accept defeat like a man and stop whining. My arguments were probably not good enough so I will think of better arguments next time I support a character. And besides I know which characters will land at the top of the list and I'm very happy about that.

Some charas are still underrated though.

Current MU:
Pichu wins. What can the IC do to counter Pichu's moveset?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, jump & smash with their hammers I guess? But since we're discussing things more deeply now... What exactly are the things the Ice Climbers fight against in the game? Can they actually win?

 

[PowerBomb]

Yeah, what do the Ice Climbers actually face? It might give us an idea of what they can do.

Other than that, I say Pichu wins this because Thunder Wave has 100% accuracy in the version games.