Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[UncleSam]

Never played Ice Climbers
those Polar bears seem pretty suave tho. Maybe the polar bear is the Fonz in disguise.

 

[§leepy God]

Current MU:
Pichu wins. What can the IC do to counter Pichu's moveset?

♪ They have wooden hammers to fight against electricity. That's just about it. But I'm sure Pichu can beat them. †

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'm waiting for _clinton here who will deffinatly bring up the dex again...

 

[_clinton]

THe point stays the same. Pikachu's far too strong for Olimar. The dex entries refer to Pikachus from about level 3 to level 30 or something.

This is again my point about how you are trying to make the pokemon sound more powerful than what they really are…leveling up in RPGs is just a game play mech.

And for Pokemon it really doesn’t mean anything…because the difference between pokemon who are trained (EVs) vs. wilds at that level is so large for starters…but also because you can find level 50 or so Pidgey as well if you look right:
http://www.psypokes.com/dex/psydex/016/locations

Again…the concept of level just has this trope go into play if it is played badly (like how Pokemon plays it):
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SortingAlgorithmOfEvil

But considering how you can’t seem to see the difference between a actual game mech. and actually game canon…I’m guessing you think Tidus’ 9999+++ HP in FF 10 makes him seem so much stronger than FF7’s Cloud because he can have issues getting to even just 9999 HP right?

That Pichu in the dex is most likely still 'baby level'.

So you are saying a level 100 Pichu isn’t still a baby? Last I checked as far as the breeding system goes…level 100 Pichu couldn’t make eggs just as much as a level 1 Pichu…

Somewhere around level 1 to 15, when fighting Pidgeys, Caterpies and Rattatas is still considered dangerous for Pichu. A full trained level 100 Pichu could deffinatly kill a normal human pretty easy.

So…the fact that you can find wild pokemon up to the 80+ levels in the game isn’t that much of an issue for you

Besides, what if Olimar got hit by Thunder Wave? 100% gurantee of paralysis. And please explain how Olimar is going to pass through Thunder, Thunderbolt, Surf or Volt Tackle? Hell, even Rain Dance would likely mean trouble for Olimar.

So…did you flat out ignore the 20 or so posts pointing out that Olimar is immune to electric attacks or what?

And DK > Wario btw.

So when has DK made a dimensional teleportation device in like 5 seconds? I’d really like to know

Pikachu used substitute
Olimar used Bitter spray
The attack was ineffective!
Pikachu uses surf!
*OHKO*
****load of pikmins fainted!
Olimar is out of Pikmin! Olimar was whited out!

So…for a bit of fun…the Pokemon Special manga I was talking about seems to be semi realistic in what moves certain pokemon can perform at what time…surf by the Pikachu could only be performed around a body of water…rock slide only worked in caves, ect.
So because the creator of Pokemon himself has accepted the manga as a good representation of Pokemon canon…I must point out that unless Pikachu is around a huge body of water I don’t see him using surf…and sense this is a neutral battlefield…

Oh and about substitute…the thing only creates a clone of Pikachu to trick someone in the manga…the thing is easy to beat up because it can’t go that far from Pikachu w/o help of some sort (like from a psychic pokemon) and attacking the real one beats it up right away…of course…it is because of the properties of substitute in the manga that is the reason for why Pikachu can use surf in the 1st place…

Of course…sense you guys don’t accept Manga/Anime/whatever as canon in this thread no matter what (even if the creator likes it/MADE it…or it ties into the canon from the games) I guess the logical points for how Pikachu can use surf/substitute are still illogical according to the games…

The stats don't change, do they? Actually, they've changed ONCE, from RBY to GSC, but FrLg nulls that.

Actually the concept of nature means that they have changed 2 times…oh and the pokemon have gotten weaker as well…oh and IVs have changed somewhat as well IIRC…shiny pokemon ring a bell?
Oh and bringing up FrLg as a way to null the fact that the games have changed is funny…but whatever I’m not going to get into your bad point with that…what with how FrLg is seen as 3rd gen

Stats haven't changed at all, really, which is what I was talking about...

Except they have…god the pokemon from the 3rd gen and up are weaker than the 2nd gen and up just because of a limit of 510 EVs instead of the ability to max out everything…

The Battle System hasn't completely changed unless you're talking about double battles, which isn't that much of a big deal. The moves have changed dramatically, of course, from 3rd gen to fourth gen.

Actually the moves have been changing the whole time…remember how substitute sucked in the 1st gen?
Or remember how Hyper Beam could sweep in the competitive pokemon environment in the 1st gen. or how the metagame was centralized by psychics…which I guess hasn’t changed that much with a very centralized game (but for different reasons now at least)

Pichu got this.

And like I said before…it’s kind of unfair to slap fighters together with people that don’t have much canon…of course Pichu has it…we can actually talk about the canon of the thing (even if it week as hell)

I personally have absolutely no idea how Surf would even happen when there's no water to be seen.

Well if you don’t look at my earlier points for this post in regards to other comments…I’ll post them here for your convince as well:
Pikachu can only use surf according to the Manga if he is in water…and his substitute is the reason for why he has the surf board

Just like how the image of a Substitute taking hits from the opponent while Pikachu is transported into some parallel dimmension whenver an attack is directed at him is absolutely beyond me.

Pikachu’s able to use his sub. because he can make us of his electricity in more ways than just thunder shock/thunder bolt…it doesn’t steel all of the damage for him in the manga though…it is just a clone of him…the Pikachu is still the one who is attacking though…

Anyways, a mixed army of Pikmin will be eliminated with any of Pikachu's electrical attacks.
Electricity is an insta-kill upon contact for non-Yellows.
An all Yellow is still very much susceptible to water-based attacks and Toxic.

You can save yellow from toxic…because after all…all it is is Pikachu waste…and water isn’t available for this type of battle field…
And like I said before…why would Olimar have a huge mixed army of them for a creature that is pure electric?

I don't see Pikachu eating White Pikmin as they'd be fried and become ghost souls after death
But just to note, White's poison tends to have less to almost unnoticable affect on certain enemies.
The Burrowing Snarget recieves very little damage from eating them wherelse insect-based enemies are damaged more.
Being non-insect seems to add immunity.

My point about Olimar’s poison compared to Pikachu’s poison was just that…Pikachu’s poison isn’t that threatening to Olimar and his Pikmin because he can remove them from it…and the poison from white seem to be needed in numbers unless we go by pokemon game mechs (in which case…1 of them will rip off 1/8 of Pika’s health per turn by game mechs. so…which one is better…game mechs. or canon?)

Still, they'd be dead long before any of this happens

Well if they eventiual get eaten…I don’t see why them being dead would matter…again…realistically…pikmin don’t evaporate into nothing when they die…like the game mechs. show…that is just a way to tell you...the player a message easier IMO…

From hands-on experience, the Pileated Snarget towers over Olimar when you pan out the camera.
The Titan Dweevil is hardly taller, but a very close in height.

It seems Man-at-Legs is bigger than the Pileated Snarget from this picture…but you know what…I’m sick of this debate over the largest foe Olimar has fought…when we seem to be in agreement that Pikachu isn’t anything out of Olimar’s size in the 1st place…

I personally don't see a reason to giving characters motives to fight.
Seems very unneeded and can potentially add some psychological factors that aren't needed.

I disagree with this though already…when we have seen what most of the matches are in the 1st place (to be fair…anything vs. Kirby could be explained by just saying they took his cake)

 

[Diddy Kong]

This is again my point about how you are trying to make the pokemon sound more powerful than what they really are…leveling up in RPGs is just a game play mech.

So we can argue that whatever happened in say... EarthBound and Mother 3 could also be ignored, because if we pass the game mechanics aside, Ness and Lucas are still little boys fighting with bats and sticks.

And for Pokemon it really doesn’t mean anything…because the difference between pokemon who are trained (EVs) vs. wilds at that level is so large for starters…but also because you can find level 50 or so Pidgey as well if you look right:
http://www.psypokes.com/dex/psydex/016/locations

Yes, and your point is?

Again…the concept of level just has this trope go into play if it is played badly (like how Pokemon plays it):
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SortingAlgorithmOfEvil

tl;dr

But considering how you can’t seem to see the difference between a actual game mech. and actually game canon…I’m guessing you think Tidus’ 9999+++ HP in FF 10 makes him seem so much stronger than FF7’s Cloud because he can have issues getting to even just 9999 HP right?

No ofcoarse not. And for your knowlegde, Ness vs Mewtwo's outcome was all decided by game mechanics.

So you are saying a level 100 Pichu isn’t still a baby? Last I checked as far as the breeding system goes…level 100 Pichu couldn’t make eggs just as much as a level 1 Pichu…

Well you know... Kids also cannot have babies.

So…the fact that you can find wild pokemon up to the 80+ levels in the game isn’t that much of an issue for you

Where?

So…did you flat out ignore the 20 or so posts pointing out that Olimar is immune to electric attacks or what?

But he isn't immune to get his *** kicked otherwise. Pikachu uses Slam, and it's over.

So when has DK made a dimensional teleportation device in like 5 seconds? I’d really like to know

I don't know how to reply to this.

So…for a bit of fun…the Pokemon Special manga I was talking about seems to be semi realistic in what moves certain pokemon can perform at what time…surf by the Pikachu could only be performed around a body of water…rock slide only worked in caves, ect.
So because the creator of Pokemon himself has accepted the manga as a good representation of Pokemon canon…I must point out that unless Pikachu is around a huge body of water I don’t see him using surf…and sense this is a neutral battlefield…

That makes sence...

 

[IsmaR]

I'm ready to lol if you say the level 1-100 Magikarps. Its dex entry for Platinum should alone prove there's a difference between levels.

"A Magikarp living for many years can leap a mountain using Splash. The move remains useless, though."

Yet in other dex entries where you can't catch them at such high levels, it states that Magikarp can barely just 7 feet in the air.

 

[Samochan]

Cept clinton, game takes precedence over manga adaptation and any adaptation basically. >_> And adaptations =/= canon source. Surf is an attack move that can be used outside water, even in deserts, but also as means to cross water areas. You can't go and say pika's unable to use surf attack because manga says so lol. Even if Tajiri thinks it's the closest thing to portray how he thinks the pokemon world is, it is certainly not true nor canon. There is for example, no moltreszapdosarticuno fusion possible, nor does mewtwo vield a spoon in games nor does he contain a dna of Blaine the gym leader that causes him much trouble in the manga, etc.

The manga might be a good representation of how the pokemon world works, how pokemon battles are portrayed and such, but in this instance a direct conflict between attack mechanics, it's no brainer which one is the one and only true source we can use here. >_>

And lv 100 pichu is still a baby pokemon lol, that fact doesn't change. Nor does pichu somehow become something completely else to warrant him being on only some hypothethical baby level (which doesn't exist btw, and if it would, it would be lv1, cept non-baby pokemons also hatch at this level). Levels =/= maturity of pokemon, hell pichu doesn't mature to pikachu unless it's happiness is high, levels don't have anything to do with it. Pichu at it's highest potential is lv100, no question about it.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Pichu could still be able to beat Olimar though, no?

Thunder Wave / Toxic
Thunderbolt
Hidden Power [Fire]

Wish should it's HP get low. Let's not forget its ability Static either.

-Terywj

 

[Diddy Kong]

_clinton says that Olimar's suit protects him from electricity. But I'm thinking that if he where hit by say.. Volt Tackle it would still kill him because of it's power.

Pichu already beat Olimar btw. Last matchup vs Olimar was Pikachu lolz.

And yes, Static would be really helpful against the Pikmin. The Chu's almost don't have to do anything against the Pikmin, if they where attacked, 30% would just fall of instantly because of the paralysis.

 

[the king of murder]

Pichu vs IC

Pichu's moveset
@Leftovers/Focus Sash

Thunderbolt/Thunder/Volt Tackle
Thundershock/Flail/Shock Wave
Substitute/Endure
Nasty Plot/Rain Dance/Double Team

and for the lulz: Attract
Because one of them will surely be affected.......not.

Btw having an accuracy of 100% doesn't mean the attack will always hit just saying. It will still miss sometimes. Attacks with an accuracy of -% are safer.

Unless someone proves that the IC can do more stuff than just jumping around and hitting enemys with their hammer I see Pichu as the winner.

 

[_clinton]

So we can argue that whatever happened in say... EarthBound and Mother 3 could also be ignored, because if we pass the game mechanics aside, Ness and Lucas are still little boys fighting with bats and sticks.

That would work if Ness and Lucas didn’t have anything more than just level ups to back up their canon…having the game stating that they are the “link” to the universe and that stuff sort of out weights the idea of the game play mech know as a “level”

But whatever…you clearly need a reminder of what is canon and what is an example of a game mech.
Canon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I85TnoywWc0 (hot spring scene)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umvtjCAJHL8 (the talking rock title says it all)

Game mechs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA3dMF0Ak9Q (getting to level 99)

Again…if you don’t get my point…let me repeat a certain part of my older post that you responded to:

I’m guessing you think Tidus’ 9999+++ HP in FF 10 makes him seem so much stronger than FF7’s Cloud because he can have issues getting to even just 9999 HP right?

Tidus from FF10 having 9999+ HP does not make him canon wise stronger than Cloud…who only has 9999 at best (with some work of course)

In fact…canon wise Cloud has a lot more happening to him for his actual canon strength than what Tidus does (Jenova cells, and mako injection for starters)…but if they are just going by game mechs. alone and what the best has for each of them…Tidus would win of course (even though THAT ISN’T CANON)

The only thing that matters for game mechs. is the stuff that appears in a game’s formula FOR THE GAME ONLY

Granted there are some rare exceptions where game mechs can be used in a canon event to show how a character is getting power:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klRhXm4SIZk

But that only matters for comparison in the EXACT SAME GAME only (not that you can’t use it…for example…Ness’ psychic power rating is 2x of Paula’s on average or so by the end of EB…Paula is considered a GIFTED psychic that is very good at the stuff by her canon)

Yes, and your point is?

Well in case you can’t tell…the level of a pokemon doesn’t matter worth **** to comparison from other canons…I mean…even in the manga where they use level as a measure of pokemon powers there are better ways of showing the things power at a true max (like what the character Yellow can do with hers)

Again…what do things like HP, Heart Containers, Energy tanks, and so on actually mean outside of the things respective canon?

What does Ness having 900+ HP tell us? The only thing it tells us is that he has more HP than his allies (for a good reason though)…it doesn’t say anything about 900+ HP being worth more than 20 heart containers or any of that other stuff…

tl;dr

Oh of course it would be for you…after it proves the “level system” as nothing more than a game mech. (like for example finding underground monkeys is another one)

No ofcoarse not. And for your knowlegde, Ness vs Mewtwo's outcome was all decided by game mechanics.

Which I find to be bad…because Ness can beat the **** out of Mewtwo without looking at game mechs.
But I’m not mad at that…because you keep on trying to say that a level 100 Pichu is canon…pretty much just because “level 100 is a number” You don’t have any real explanation for it IMO (training can be also measured with EVs…and is a far better way to measure it IMO than “level 100”)

Well you know... Kids also cannot have babies.

Yeah…and apparently the Daycare system is only so-so and showing that (just in case for example a Pidgey is the “true” baby form of a Pidgeot for starters)

But…it still points out…that a ton of growth in level…doesn’t mean ANYTHING as far as I’m concerned…

Where?

Well the pokemon god is in that level…and is wild

But he isn't immune to get his *** kicked otherwise. Pikachu uses Slam, and it's over.

Except Olimar’s suit is some durable **** in case you missed my point about it in another post earlier…
I don’t see how Pikachu stepping on Olimar is going to kill him when Olimar brushes off things the same size of Pikachu doing it and there are IRL examples of bugs living from it just fine as well from humans (just saying…Pikachu will hurt the Pikmin by doing it pretty well…but Olimar’s suit is by far more durable than his Pikmin are…and he can restore his health and so on…and according to the dex…Pikachu does have a timer)

I don't know how to reply to this.

You could ask me for my reference for this…in case you don’t believe my point on Wario having better “toy” than Mario and DK put together…and he makes them himself…

That makes sence...

Good…

I'm ready to lol if you say the level 1-100 Magikarps. Its dex entry for Platinum should alone prove there's a difference between levels.

"A Magikarp living for many years can leap a mountain using Splash. The move remains useless, though."

Yet in other dex entries where you can't catch them at such high levels, it states that Magikarp can barely just 7 feet in the air.

So...did you forget something like this little small entry:

In the distant past, it was somewhat stronger than the horribly weak descendants that exist today.

All that does is back the entry on proving that older Magikarp are better than younger ones (because we have no idea how long the thing lives for one thing) they are still worthless though

game takes precedence over manga adaptation and any adaptation basically. >_> And adaptations =/= canon source…

…Even if Tajiri thinks it's the closest thing to portray how he thinks the pokemon world is, it is certainly not true nor canon.

Yeah…Satoshi Tajiri is the guy who MADE Pokemon itself…he has every right to accept things as canon or close to it…we don’t…and he points out that the comic is quite close to the world that he was trying to make…

It’s not like he is saying a line like what Itoi would do and saying: “it’s up to the reader to decide if this is the real pokemon world”…he is saying it pretty much IS the pokemon world…only in printed form…which certainly can do a better job with things than games can do sometimes…

There is for example, no moltreszapdosarticuno fusion possible, nor does mewtwo vield a spoon in games nor does he contain a dna of Blaine the gym leader that causes him much trouble in the manga, etc.

But Mewtwo beating things up with a giant spoon is so awesome though…and unlike the other things…the people in this have somewhat of a personality/story (haven’t read more beyond the Yellow mark though…so I’m not 100% sure yet)

it's no brainer which one is the one and only true source we can use here. >_>

Yes…let us take the source that says 400 some odd things can control the weather by themselves for no reason…even though the games canon makes a big deal out of it when only one or three of them can control the stuff (3rd gen)

I’ve already pointed out that game mechs =/= canon and the move pool in pokemon is quite largely affected by game mechs. such as trying to make something have a use over something else…so…there are some things that wouldn’t make sense

Again Pidgeot learning Heat Wave…despite what learns heat wave naturally…as in all fire pokemon until Platinum…and then after that…whatever can fly…for some reason…

Pichu at it's highest potential is lv100, no question about it.

So…quick question…what are the levels of everything else in the Pokedex then (oh and again…I already gave my opinion on how the Magikarp so called has a higher level than another one)?

Again people…”numbers” only matter for the canon of which it relates to…it is pointless to compare them to other canon…for many good reasons…

And yes, Static would be really helpful against the Pikmin. The Chu's almost don't have to do anything against the Pikmin, if they where attacked, 30% would just fall of instantly because of the paralysis.

Pikachu's static is formed because of his electricity though...it's no different for yellow Pikmin to attack him than it would be to certain electric coated foes from their game...

Pichu's moveset

Why do people still think that Pokemon only being able to remember 4 moves is actual canon still and not just a balancing game mech? I mean...you are aware that the things have a pool to chose from dealing with a range of 50-100 or so right...only being able to use 4 is just to balance things out and make the metagame suck less...

Because one of them will surely be affected.......not.

You only use one of them for the actual canon...the team up thing and so on was made in SSBM like how Falcon's move set came about (and Marth's/Roy's/Ike's for the most part)

Only Falcon has had things after SSB...and the ICs haven't...oh and Falcon's canon was more better developed than the Climbers before his SSB entrance as well...so that helps...

Has anyone ever even played the game? Just wondering

Unless someone proves that the IC can do more stuff than just jumping around and hitting enemys with their hammer I see Pichu as the winner.

The ICs are one of many characters in this thread who don't have enough of a canon to actually be talked about or give any measurements for...the game they are from is a one hp wonder type...it's more of a puzzle based type (because you really can't defend yourself and so on...the hammers are for looks mainly)

They are the same as ROB/G&W...and shouldn't be talked about...because having characters like them around will screw up the so called tier list that is being made...

 

[Samochan]

Lol you keep forgetting clinton, that what Tajiri says and does are different things. He made the games, but someone else made the manga. Obv we go by the games, because that's how tajiri intented them and made them to be and really, the purpose of this thread is to go by the games, no matter how awesome that manga is. Even if I may agree with you that pokemon special manga would be very close to the canon of the whole series, the point of this discussion is solely of the games and that doesn't include anime nor manga. :/ And that's it, there's no arguing about it.

Iirc rain dance and sunny day =/= drizzle and drought. Those moves only last 5 turns, while those 2 abilities found solely on kyogre and groudon last the entire duration of the battle unless they are negated by another weather condition. =) So it's not controlling the weather more than we humans are capable of creating artificial rain and stuff (unless I'm wrong with this).

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Pichu vs IC

Pichu's moveset
@Leftovers/Focus Sash

Thunderbolt/Thunder/Volt Tackle
Thundershock/Flail/Shock Wave
Substitute/Endure
Nasty Plot/Rain Dance/Double Team

and for the lulz: Attract
Because one of them will surely be affected.......not.

Btw having an accuracy of 100% doesn't mean the attack will always hit just saying. It will still miss sometimes. Attacks with an accuracy of -% are safer.

Unless someone proves that the IC can do more stuff than just jumping around and hitting enemys with their hammer I see Pichu as the winner.

Agreed. All Pichu needs to do it Volt Tackle!

Or just spam Nasty Plot + Shock Waves.

-Terywj

 

[IsmaR]

Notice it says descendants, which could mean either a different species or even genus(aka a different Pokemon all together, or a different version of it ala Rotom's transformations/stat increases). Distant past doesn't necessarily mean just year or two back, it could be decades or even centuries for all we know. And I assumed that older ones being better were a given, since all Pokemon supposedly start out as "baby" Pokemon/at Lv 1. Who is to say that a Lv. 14 one isn't older than a Lv. 100 one, since they'd have next to no way to level up in the first place?

Anyway, current MU should be Pichu. Focus Sash would ensure it doesn't get OHKO'd(if it would be in the first place) and ICs only have one form of attack, which could also get them paralyzed.

 

[_clinton]

what Tajiri says and does are different things. He made the games, but someone else made the manga.

I like how you say I’m “forgetting” that the creator of Pokemon didn’t make the manga…good job paying attention to my argument...

I guess you did not notice my original post on this matter stating that my reasons for accepting the manga as canon was because of the creator of pokemon saying it was a good example of the pokemon world in the 1st place? I never said he made it himself at all…only that he said it is pretty much the world HE wanted in the 1st place…

In case you don’t get it…he is saying it is a better representation of the world than the games HE made (You need to see the question though being asked in order to get that amount out of him)

Of course going on…this is what the producer of Pokemon (Tsunekaz Ishihara) has to say about the manga as well:

I want every Pokémon fan to read this comic!

So to me…it’s pretty ****ing clear that the manga should be taken seriously…when the people making the games like it (or they may just be getting money from it...which is nice as well...for different reasons yes...but still nice)

Of course…this goes on with the fact that different media out there can represent things better than games can (and vice versa…because games can do a better job in certain things than other media can)

Obv we go by the games, because that's how tajiri intented them and made them to be and really, the purpose of this thread is to go by the games, no matter how awesome that manga is…

…And that's it, there's no arguing about it.

Did you read Tajiri’s quote on the manga before saying that the games is how “he intended” them?

Anyway for a different but repeated already note…So what happens again when we have manga or anime that says it ties into the games (Metroid’s/F-Zero’s) or an anime made in part by the creator of said canon (Kirby’s)?

Oh and before this goes on any further…I probably should point out that Mewtwo using a spoon for a weapon is perhaps the main thing I like about the manga (I don’t really care for anything else ATM… my interest sort of when downhill a lot when Yellow started surfing on lava…but whatever…maybe I’m overreacting to that stupidity…because the games sure as hell have a lot of dumb things about them as well)

Iirc rain dance and sunny day =/= drizzle and drought. Those moves only last 5 turns, while those 2 abilities found solely on kyogre and groudon last the entire duration of the battle unless they are negated by another weather condition. =) So it's not controlling the weather more than we humans are capable of creating artificial rain and stuff (unless I'm wrong with this).

So…did you forget that the dex doesn’t even agree to that? I mean…remember how it says you need several Pikachu to even get close to something like rain dance?

Oh and what about the other weather conditions you can have in the games? No offense but I don’t see how a sandstorm will last “forever”

And I assumed that older ones being better were a given, since all Pokemon supposedly start out as "baby" Pokemon/at Lv 1.

Are you are saying level 100 pokemon are “grown up fully” pokemon or something like that…so…if pokemon are fully grown up at level 100…why is Pikachu still a Pikachu…or Pichu…and not a Raichu…it’s official “grown up” form?

Though...if level is a representation of growth level 100 would be fully grown...not level 14...level 100 doesn't make sense though for over 1/2 of the pokemon then...

If the members of the Pikachu family are fully grown up…they would be a Raichu…oh and Pichu would be able to make eggs as well…

Oh and growth is clearly not being represented by level for the games...ever notice that special Pichu that just came out...you know...the one "frozen" in time...it sure does a good job with showing that level is nothing more than just a game mech. for the pokemon world if you ask me...

If level is suppose to be a representation of growth...than it shouldn't go up like it does...because that Pichu is trapped in it's current form "forever"...which would suck when you think about it of course...

Oh and not all pokemon start off as baby pokemon at level 1…please find me a legit level 1 Pidgeot if you would be so nice (oh and before you talk about certain pokemon like Palkia...please remember that they are "gods"...and what rules could be applied to them...such as a "permanent form")

Oh and again…this is why I hate the idea of you using level…it isn’t measurable by any sort of means even in the games (as from the Pichu example)…you have no real proof that the Pichu being talked about in the dex are level 1 or level 100…all you have are really just assumptions…that wouldn't fit when you start talking about others in the line (like older pokemon forms or the pokemon gods)

Magikarp is a special case if you ask me…the game has stated that they live pretty much for a long time (I think there is a text stating that one is 100 years old or something in a game…but I can’t remember off hand where it is at)

I mean…think about it for why the older one could just be the ancestor as well:
-Able to live in the worse of environments w/o any issue…somehow…I mean the thing can’t even swim right...
-The Pokedex says they live forever…and the game has ones that are more than just “old”…
-The most common fish pokemon by far...which BTW there is something about breeding that should be brought up and what happens when you get older and what happens to you and your chances at making healthier offspring (at least by pure biological points not factoring in the environment for the thing...which btw in this case is bad for baby Magikarp as well on top of that)

Fun fact...it sucks...things like having higher chances at various FUN abnormalities happening is just for starters...but this could explain the newer magikarp being worse off...because the things live "forever" and never stop having babies...which can be very bad news for the gene pool in the long run...but on top of that...the environment they live in is ****...so it is no wonder why older Magikarp are better off than newer ones

-The thing becomes a Gyarados...a thing similar in appearance to dragons seen in Chinese mythology…that has a history of being rarely seen…I wonder why? After all it is the most extreme transformation in the games still pretty much…

Oh and on another note…Pikachu/Pichu have some of the worse defense stats out of all pokemon and Olimar’s Pikmin have been seen ripping through metal objects w/o much if any effort if used right…Pikmin may die pretty easily to a point…but I don’t think either one of the Pokemon that have been talked about in a fight so far would want them on them…

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Alright, still uber busy, but let's move on to Falcon Vs. Link.

 

[the king of murder]

Why do people still think that Pokemon only being able to remember 4 moves is actual canon still and not just a balancing game mech? I mean...you are aware that the things have a pool to chose from dealing with a range of 50-100 or so right...only being able to use 4 is just to balance things out and make the metagame suck less....

I don't care. You don't have proof for your statement.

You only use one of them for the actual canon...the team up thing and so on was made in SSBM like how Falcon's move set came about (and Marth's/Roy's/Ike's for the most part)

Only Falcon has had things after SSB...and the ICs haven't...oh and Falcon's canon was more better developed than the Climbers before his SSB entrance as well...so that helps...

Has anyone ever even played the game? Just wondering.

I know that.

When playing one player, the player plays as Popo. When playing two player in Ice Climber, player one plays as Popo, while player two plays as Nana

But since Smash made them as one character and it is possible to play the Ice Climbers with both in their game they should be represented that way. Please don't argue with me if the ICs should fight alone or together since it's pointless either way.

The ICs are one of many characters in this thread who don't have enough of a canon to actually be talked about or give any measurements for...the game they are from is a one hp wonder type...it's more of a puzzle based type (because you really can't defend yourself and so on...the hammers are for looks mainly)

They are the same as ROB/G&W...and shouldn't be talked about...because having characters like them around will screw up the so called tier list that is being made...

Agreed. But they are Smash charas so no exception I guess.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dude _clinton whatsup with your logic really? First you said like "Ness has better PSI than Paula, cause he's got more PP meaning Psychic Power" while afterall... it's just a game mechanic, much like Ness realising his uber powahz after his imaginary world, which again... doesn't work if your already overleveled..

And now your insisting Pokemon aren't stronger when they are level 100 than usual, because leveling up is a game mechanic?? Also, in reply to your last wall quote with me: yes Arcues is level 80 in the "wild". But it's not exactly wild as you won't see any swarms of so called 'God Pogeymanz' in the grass.

But yet you say that 20 Heart Containers, and HP shouldn't mean one is better / more durable than the other. I don't understand anything from your posts anymore.

Match up related: Link has Nayru's Love, will that make him win?

 

[the king of murder]

Match up related: Link has Nayru's Love, will that make him win?

I wouldn't say that Link got this one so easily since CF has the Blue Falcon that travels faster than the speed of sound and the Falcon Flyer at his disposal. Of course Link has bunch of options here but can he catch up with Falcon's car?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Hmm, what about Bombchus then? It's good that Link has acces to OoT stuff, because otherwise he'd lose this one badly.

 

[the king of murder]

Bombuchus are too slow to catch up with Falcons car and are easily avoidable. What would the elemantal arrows do to Blue Falcon? If we are allowed to use TP Link than maybe the Ball and Chain would do a good amount of damage if it hits Blue Falcon. Bomb Arrows with Magic Armor would be a good idea too.

 

[_clinton]

I don't care. You don't have proof for your statement.

I like how you just ignore my reasoning for how pokemon makes the game have a 4 move limit (it would break some pokemon for starters…and make many worthless)

Um...right...here is a fun fact for you...Pokemon are smart...
-Many of the things show signs that they can understand human language for starters...
-The things live in packs
-Plus there is proof out there that several pokemon where once human as well (various Kadabra for starters...plus the entire concept of the PMD games…please explain how humans in the pokemon world that have become pokemon can only remember 4 things with that concept in mind?)

Or try arguing when this comic:
http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=242

How can you really think that a 4 move limit isn’t just a game mech. in the game? Really come on…

But since Smash made them as one character and it is possible to play the Ice Climbers with both in their game they should be represented that way.

Funny…I like things like how Pokemon can do more than 4 attacks in smash…or how about the concept of how Ness/Lucas are fast learners is shown in smash with various PSI?

Man…I really like how you guys show double standards in this thread all the time ^_^

Agreed. But they are Smash charas so no exception I guess.

But they don’t have a canon story beyond just gathering veggies…

First you said like "Ness has better PSI than Paula, cause he's got more PP meaning Psychic Power" while afterall... it's just a game mechanic, much like Ness realising his uber powahz after his imaginary world, which again... doesn't work if your already overleveled..

Again…my 3rd point was game mechs. covering something that happens in the game script

You can use game mechs. to represent something that happens in a story…there is nothing saying you can’t for this…in fact it is one of the +s games have over books, movies, and other media…is that you…the viewer…directly feel it

Like for another example look at Bowser in Paper Mario with the star rod…

It is one thing to say your foe is invincible and then for the story you have an auto fail…it will work…but it feels kind of boring if you ask me…especially with games…who give you…the player 1st hand experience for what is going on…

However, it is another thing to say your foe is invincible for the story…and then return control to the player…and then have the player FAIL no matter what they do…in fact…it hits home personally very well in case you can’t tell…

Another example of what I mean is this stuff right here:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitlekgac497y?from=Main.ItsAWonderfulFailure
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NonstandardGameOver

Also…Ness isn’t suppose to be at level 99 in case you didn’t see that by that point of unlocking his powers…because he isn’t at his best for one thing…because he still gets exp. After that…so…if you miss one of the best parts of EB where Ness turns red…it is your fault…because it is suppose to happen for the story…

Please read the game script for EB if you are trying to get my point of how a game mech can show a power difference…for the characters OWN media (as in it is kind of hard to compare outside of it…but looking inside of it you can see what they are like)

'Ness was filled with the Power of Giant Step!
'Ness's Speed increased by 5!
'Ness's Vitality increased by 5!
'Ness was filled with the Power of the Lilliput Steps!
'Ness's Guts increased by 5!
'Ness's Luck increased by 5!
'Ness was filled with the Power of the Milky Well!
'Ness's Speed increased by 5!
'Ness's IQ increased by 5!
'Ness was filled with the Power of Magnet Hill!
'Ness's Vitality increased by 5!
'Ness's Luck increased by 5!
'Ness was filled with the Power of the Rainy Circle!
'Ness's Guts increased by 5!
'Ness's IQ increased by 5!
'Ness was filled with the Power of the Pink Cloud!
'Ness's Speed increased by 5!
'Ness's Guts increased by 5!
'Ness was filled with the Power of the Lumine Hole!
'Ness's Luck increased by 5!
'Ness's IQ increased by 5!
'Ness was filled with the Power of the Fire Spring!
'Ness's Speed increased by 5!
'Ness's Luck increased by 5!
'Instantly, Ness's mind cleared,
'and he realized that he had possessed great power!
'At that moment, Ness's psychic powers radically expanded!
'Ness gained 200,000 experience!

'Ness made all of the hidden powers his own.
'Ness absorbed the power of the land into his heart, and Magicant was no more.

Notice the part that is bolded in that wall? The part about his psychic powers expanding?

That is the part that symbolizes Ness’ psychic points getting that point…PP=psychic power as much as it is equal to psychic points…

Ness’ PP going up by 2x as much is a symbol for him getting more powerful…

And like I said before though…there is nothing to back up the concept of leveling up in Pokemon (in fact…there isn’t really anything to back up the concept of leveling up in EB as well…in some other source…they would just have Ness being said to be more powerful…and have something like him shooting lasers or something)

Again…for things like Magikarp so called leveling up…I’ve already explained what I think it really is (and it certainly makes more sense than an imaginary number like leveling up):
-They live forever (pokedex ref.)
-They live in the worse environments because they can’t compete (pokedex ref.)
-They make TONS of BABIES (as shown by where you can find them…read…everywhere)

It’s clear to me the real reason for why the older ones are better off than the younger ones…the older ones chances are have had a better environment to live in (because they LIVED to be old in the 1st place)…but they keep on making babies…which if you look right…it isn’t a smart thing to do when you are older (for more reasons than one of course)

Naturally…Magikarp wouldn’t have the best pickings for strong environment…so this has an effect on the health of the future Magikarp as well…

So…A piss poor environment combined with slowly becoming more at risk genes because age can truly cause some issues with that IRL = worse off future Magikarp…

I mean…Gyarados itself is proof of that environment having a large effect on them if you check what happens to a Magikarp’s brain when it becomes one (according to the Dex)…

But yet you say that 20 Heart Containers, and HP shouldn't mean one is better / more durable than the other. I don't understand anything from your posts anymore.

Please read the other part of my post talking about the stuff where you can only compare stats into their official media for a real measurement…

Ness has a ton of HP…and his defense can vary in HIS GAME from high to very high…chances are it’s going to be high though…Pikachu has low HP, defense, and so on in his game…hell his base stats are all quite low w/o his “artificial” mascot booster (As in…only put in because of his popularity)

Ness’ game is dealing with an alien encounter that could **** the universe…Pikachu is just part of a pack of possible creatures out there that could do various things in said game’s world…but the main goal of the person who might not even use it is to be the best at something

Which one do you think is better at taking a hit from looking at their official media with this stuff?

Oh and Falcon wins this...Link having old style bombs is hardly a threat to a machine that can handle traveling at the speed of sound but you seem to think orange nades from Diddy would destroy said machine...so I guess you don't know how strong something would have to be to handle moving at those speeds in the 1st place...

BTW...Falcon has more than one said machine...and he has a remote control for them...so whatever...

Bombuchus are too slow to catch up with Falcons car and are easily avoidable. What would the elemantal arrows do to Blue Falcon? If we are allowed to use TP Link than maybe the Ball and Chain would do a good amount of damage if it hits Blue Falcon. Bomb Arrows with Magic Armor would be a good idea too.

K...The fastest arrow that Link has wouldn't even be NEAR as fast as Falcon's car can move...in fact I'm thinking Falcon could possibly dodge it w/o a car...because he clearly has a high enough reaction time to handle speeds moving at beyond/around the speed of sound...but just to show you how out classed in speed Link is:

The best bows in Medieval Archery was only CLOSE to 60 m/s (Not even a full 58 m/s BTW...I'm just being nice and saying it's 60 m/s)

BTW 3.3 feet = 1 m/s
The speed of sound at sea level = 340.29 m/s

Link only at best 18% of the amount of speed to work with that Falcon does...which is again being rounded up...

Link's bow=198 f/s
Falcon's car=1123 f/s

(Samus' stats for the ship are still more ****ing stupid)

 

[the king of murder]

I like how you just ignore my reasoning for how pokemon makes the game have a 4 move limit (it would break some pokemon for starters…and make many worthless)

Um...right...here is a fun fact for you...Pokemon are smart...
-Many of the things show signs that they can understand human language for starters...
-The things live in packs
-Plus there is proof out there that several pokemon where once human as well (various Kadabra for starters...plus the entire concept of the PMD games…please explain how humans in the pokemon world that have become pokemon can only remember 4 things with that concept in mind?)

Or try arguing when this comic:
http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=242

How can you really think that a 4 move limit isn’t just a game mech. in the game? Really come on…

Yeah Pokemon can do various things. They can jump, think, push you like a human ect.. Your point? I'm not saying PKM can't remember more than 4 things. But the attacks they learn are like special attacks. Those attacks are kinda compareable with Smashs B(special moves) attacks. You only have 4 special moves but you can do other neutral things.

Even the Anime shows it like that. Pokemon never learned more than 4 moves as well but they could dodge normally like any other person.

Funny…I like things like how Pokemon can do more than 4 attacks in smash…or how about the concept of how Ness/Lucas are fast learners is shown in smash with various PSI?

Man…I really like how you guys show double standards in this thread all the time ^_^

ICs being together=possible in their canon game who were presented together as one chara in Smash unlike Mario and Luigi. The things you named=not possible in their canon game(well I'm not sure about Ness and Lucas though).

 

[_clinton]

Yeah Pokemon can do various things. They can jump, think, push you like a human ect.. Your point? I'm not saying PKM can't remember more than 4 things. But the attacks they learn are like special attacks.

You should look at the list of moves out there again…

Things like scratching a foe, biting a foe, punching a foe, kicking a foe, and yes…even jumping on a foe (Bounce) or pushing a foe (way too many to list) are all at least according to your post that you are trying to pass them off as…”special attacks”

Really…It is only a way to even out the meta-game…because there are plenty of pokemon that have more than enough moves to the point where you really can’t counter them fully until you actually know what they are packing (Mewtwo, or whatever Uber or so here for starters…but Blissey, Gengar, and so on down the tier list of them have such things)

ICs being together=possible in their canon game who were presented together as one chara in Smash unlike Mario and Luigi. The things you named=not possible in their canon game(well I'm not sure about Ness and Lucas though).

Mario and Luigi: RPG...
Anyway...I'm thinking the bros could easily be presented as a single force of two if Nintendo wanted to...hell the only reason I see Popo and Nana being considered the same these days anyway is because they only had one game...because in case you haven't looked enough...Mario and Luigi are shown as "the same" all the time as well if you care to look at their history for a second (SMB, SMB3, SMW...the fact that Luigi isn't even in a ton of appearances for games that Mario was in is proof enough of my point)

Oh and if you would look at how PK attacks are learned in EB/M3…you would agree with me on how it is only really just a game mech. for evening out the characters as the true reason for Ness not using PK Freeze…because he clearly has more than enough potential to learn it…and the attacks are considered the “same” as far as concept goes under…the only one that has any real conditions to learning is PK Rockin/Love/whatever you name it

 

[Terywj [태리]]

So is Pichu v. Ice Climbers over?

-Terywj

 

[Mewter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U6hxNuzhaY&feature=related

Krabby/Kingler had more than 4 attacks in the anime.
Cookie.

 

[PowerBomb]

So is Pichu v. Ice Climbers over?

-Terywj

As it was said, we really have no complete idea of what Ice Climbers can do

So yes. It can, however, still be debated if you wish to continue with it. I believe Pichu won this.

 

[_clinton]

As it was said, we really have no complete idea of what Ice Climbers can do

So yes. It can, however, still be debated if you wish to continue with it. I believe Pichu won this.

It's pretty easy to say the other one won when the other side doesn't really have much if any real canon info to go on for information...even if the other side does suck...

 

[Diddy Kong]

So you'd say... Ice Climbers could've won then?

 

[_clinton]

So you'd say... Ice Climbers could've won then?

Ah no...again please notice (as in read what I've been saying for 30 posts now...but most recently in my 2nd to last post as in #10184) my comparing them to old Mario and Luigi to get what I'm saying...

The Ice Climbers don't have any real established canon to measure their worth by (like I said before)

They are pretty much like Mario and Luigi before Mario and Luigi got separate traits (like Weegee jumping higher than Mario) and a ton of extra games about them to identify them by...I mean...in case you can't tell...there are a lot of Mario games out there where Luigi is only a "copy" of Mario for the player (New Super Mario Bros are the recent ones) but that doesn't matter for him because there are like 80 Mario games/other forms of media out there saying he isn't a copy of Mario...

If you don't get my point...it's like what if this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Bros.
...was the only other Mario game to come out after Donkey Kong?

You can tell that doesn't really have much if any canon info on the brothers in it...

And that really only is pretty much the amount of info we have on the Climbers...one old 8-bit game...that is simple as hell (it isn't like Pit...who is close to the same issues...but his game is a bit more complex than the Climbers and the old Mario bros.)

So of course they are going to lose matches...we don't really have any info about them...

So...even if Pichu is canon wise weak as hell (and they are)...piss poor canon power still beats no canon power info by comparison...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I'd also have to agree with Falcon.

/Will explain why in a bit.

 

[the king of murder]

It seems like Falcon is winning. I have to agree with that. Falcon Flyer and Blue Falcon are to much for Link to handle even with Nayru's Love. He will eventually run out of magic(or Rupees depends which protection he will use). It's kinda ironic that adult Link is lower on the tier list than his child counterpart.

@clinton
I don't want to deny that there is a possibility for PKM to learn more than 4 moves. It's just that there is no solid proof to back up this claim in Pokegames.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The whole ranking list will remain "ironic" till the tier list is made. The match-ups are inconsistent for each character.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, I don't like it but maybe Diddy vs Falcon has to change as well. But really it'd depend if we allow characters to cross over their abilities. Say with Link, combing TP's bomb arrows with OoT's Nayru's Love. Diddy beat Falcon with Going Bananas and the guitar. Going Banans comes from King of Swing for GBA, the guitar attack from DK64.

 

[the king of murder]

Well yeah. Personally I think YLink and TLink are overall better than ALink because they have better equipments than YLink's adult counterpart.

 

[Diddy Kong]

They're still pretty much the same I think. The younger Link versions might be a bit better than the adult versions so far, but they'll not be beating many things adult Link cannot handle himself. Btw, this isn't the final list.

 

[REL38]

I'd like to think Link wins
More equipment, I suppose.


@Clinton

Pikmin are easily delt with via Pika's arrange of moves.
Logical or not

Olimar can tank hits, but he'll die without any Pikmin.

btw
Man-at-Legs is hardly taller
The camera angle skews true size.
Man-at-Legs is default horizontal/diagonal view.
Pileated Snarget is overhead view

 

[_clinton]

It seems like Falcon is winning. I have to agree with that. Falcon Flyer and Blue Falcon are to much for Link to handle even with Nayru's Love. He will eventually run out of magic(or Rupees depends which protection he will use). It's kinda ironic that adult Link is lower on the tier list than his child counterpart.

Well...the child counterpart is the true Link usually talked about in games...I mean the 1st Zelda clearly has him has a kid...and more of the games seem to have Link being younger than older (lol at older...I hardly see 17 as a good example of older).

Of course...I don't know why OoT Link would be seen as good anyway...

I mean...the master sword sure it picky about it's users...for some reason the thing wouldn't allow a 10 year old boy to wield it...but the thing is ok with an adult using it that realistically still has the mind of a 10 year old boy using it...of course...I guess it's best if you don't think about stuff like that...

So...anyone else want to see the next Zelda game with Link seeming to not have a sword?

I don't want to deny that there is a possibility for PKM to learn more than 4 moves. It's just that there is no solid proof to back up this claim in Pokegames.

You are aware that the only place in the games pretty much that I can think of where NPCs talk about how pokemon can learn only 4 things is at the "school" type locations...as in the places where people tell you how to play the game...

As in breaking the 4th wall...which means the stuff they are talking about shouldn't be taken serious...because they are pretty much admitting that realistic things for their canon are being substitute for dealing with game play reasons/restrictions to the things (because again...games have to do more work compared to other forms of media)

Like only learning 4 moves...or taking the type chart as 100% serious...before you think that stuff is real…how about you look at the move pool and how it has at well beyond 5 different ways of how a pokemon can so called “tackle” a foe...
Double-Edge, Brave Bird, Aqua Jet, Waterfall, Dragon Rush, Giga Impact, Gyro Ball, Rollout, ice ball, quick attack, take down, oh and tackle of course…

^_^

Man you have to love how all of these moves are so different…I mean…they sure don’t sound pretty much the same at all from the descriptions in the game (just changing depending on if it is a "risky" tackle or not...and lol at that)

Oh and you have to love how they have moves like flame wheel and volt tackle around…the idea of mixing it up and coating yourself in an element instead of just being "another boring tackle"

Which btw that is what ice ball isn't for some reason…god all they really did for a lot of moves was just name them different things but they pretty much just do the same things realistically if you bother to read some of the descriptions for these things...

Of course...there is a better way of doing that instead of having 50 tackle attacks programmed for a game…it’s called allowing the player to customize the moves how they want personally…but whatever...I guess they thought this system would be better for some reason…personally I would love to see a customization option in the future games for moves…instead of what they are just doing now...

I'd think that it’s a lot better than having 12+ tackles, scratches, head-butts, throws, beams, and so on...but that is just me...

Well, I don't like it but maybe Diddy vs Falcon has to change as well. But really it'd depend if we allow characters to cross over their abilities. Say with Link, combing TP's bomb arrows with OoT's Nayru's Love. Diddy beat Falcon with Going Bananas and the guitar. Going Banans comes from King of Swing for GBA, the guitar attack from DK64.

Again…Diddy canon wise does not even have Going Bananas…Diddy’s King of Swing mode is like playing as suitless Samus in the 1st Metroid…it is just an extra…

DK’s is the only official story for that game…Diddy did NOTHING to officially get the banana medallions back from K. Rool in that game…Also…

Any form of the word invincibility in games is also most likely BS…the stuff 1st off all falls badly under this meaning with any sort of argument towards other means:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_standard

And…Such a thing logically doesn’t exist in the real canon because in case you didn’t notice…the stuff is for the most part is only a means to help the player or put in for another reason (I mean…look at Wario’s so called permanent- invincibility…the games that have it are pretty much PUZZLE based for how you go about them)

In case you need a reminder of a different sort of why invincibility in games is BS:

What would win: The spear that breaks through everything or the shield that blocks everything? (and can you tell me if they are even real anyway?)

Also…Can you really tell me that for the DK canon…do they focus on how Going Bananas works at all…like do they have some real description?

Last I checked from playing that game…it really only seems to be put in as a tool for the player…there is no canon info on it besides the game telling you how to play

Stuff like that doesn’t count because stuff like that breaks the 4th wall on purpose for the player’s sake of learning about the game (like the various NPCs in M3 that talk about rolling combo system)

Ness’ psychic powers are actually talked about in his canon story…do you notice that? Going Bananas has nothing to do with the story at all...

The closest thing to invincibility in the DK canon is from Strong Kong/ invincibility barrels seen in DK64/DKC2/3…which again are even more proof that they aren’t to be taken seriously…and are even easier to debunk because the game developers:

Limit them to hell and back in use on purpose…which points out that they don’t take them as serious…just as a game play gimmick

Because you only use them when you NEED them for something to complete a side part of the game for the most part (like getting to a secret room after crossing a pool of lava). That is also ANOTHER form of breaking the 4th wall and letting the player notice that they are playing a game if you look at that bit of what goes on anyway when you are using them.

I'd like to think Link wins
More equipment, I suppose.

Yes…because the arrows…which are the fastest things Link has unless I’m forgetting something…are so close to what Falcon has for speed

In case you missed my post earlier when someone asked if they might be able to hit Falcon’s car…they aren’t even a full 18% of the speed Falcon has to work with in regards to his tools…

60 m/s of the best bow from Link’s time isn’t close to 340.29 m/s…which is the speed Falcon has to work with...

In case you just want the base of the facts right now…which btw are only on top of that fact that Falcon can just hit Link going at the speed of sound…

Falcon can also react to said speeds of 340.29 m/s as well if you don’t get that…

I’m thinking he could dodge the arrows outside of a machine even just fine if he wanted to

Oh and I hardly see Link has having better tools when Falcon has a futuristic setting on his side…on top of holding a creation powers belt in his garage somewhere on top of that according to one of the games…

He also has remote controls in his cars...so he can control them w/o being in them if he wants…and is packing a fire arm that he has been seen before using…oh and is perfectly ok with fighting physically if he needs to according to various different media about him…

Oh and Falcon is again...just in case you need to know…the poster boy for a universe packed with superheroes, supervillains, cyborgs, mutants, and aliens.

Said character himself has the reputation of being one of the best bounty hunters in this ****ed up lala land universe…

To the point where his enemies would go to the length of stealing his DNA when he was in a crash just to clone him in mass amounts (Yes...he has survived crashes at the said speed of sound as well in case you want an idea on his durability...so yeah...it's going to take more than an "orange grenade" to kill him or stop that car and ship he has...oh and you really have to love how Diddy's music weapons didn't work on everything in that game anyway on top of that)

Pikmin are easily delt with via Pika's arrange of moves.
Logical or not

-Pika’s range of moves include physically using his body in some way ranging from tail whipping, using his small arms and legs/body in various ways…I could see it shaking pikmin off pretty well...but none of the things he can do...except with his body seem deadly overall IMO…

Which is of course...just running you over with the mass he has…which could be in the way that things like EB would do (he even has roll out lol ^_^)…2nd place is his tail…the thing is a means for using his electricity after all on top of that...

Which again though...if I'm to talk about it's physical parts…there is nothing stating that Pikachu’s are packing "super speed" like stuff canon wise…so I don’t see how he is that fast…it's just as speedy as a rodent would get of course...which is still good...just not insane like you guys have said...

-Discharging off electricity which is the biggest link to the creatures health according to the dex and mainly used in threatening situations…but it can be used for offense and defense in whatever ways…

If the Manga is to be believed with regards to some things on use of it (because there is no other explanation for how it works btw)…making things like a sub only would present a fake double to deal with in regards to defense/offense support…and I don’t see how Olimar will be confused/threatened by it…considering how fake outs like it have been used in the games in case you forgot things like that…if they didn't work on Olimar...why would Pika's?

So going on…this is the best natural stuff Pika has besides his body compared to Olimar…and I don’t see how it would bug Olimar and a bunch of pesky Yellow Pikmin…who said things have been shown to be perfectly capable of ripping through various metal beings if given a chance in a pack…and are able to hold down weakened/tired out foes just fine (which could happen to Pikas again if they run out of juice according to the dex...Pikas/pokemon don't have unlimited energy)

-So going on with some other things...Pikas can be seen also digging underground somehow (how will that help though? I don’t see him moving 50 MPH underground like Onix do...if it was to try and surprise Olimar) and kicking dirt on you (I don’t see how that is much of an issue really...it could scatter them I guess)

Trying to throw its **** on you with “toxic”…again…how is this a large threat issue for Olimar and just claiming the Pikmin down if it gets on them?

He has some BS stuff like fly…but unless he has a ton of balloons tied to him he isn’t using that according to the definition of how it works anyway…and again…canon wise the only way I see surf working for Pika is if you are really around water (because unlike water Pokemon in the 1st place…I don’t see Pikachu having access to something even close to being like “water gun” such as how Squirtle does in VG cats ^_^ Plus if the Manga is to be believed again...Pikachu needs to create a surfboard as well)

And still...I don’t see how the things could control the weather by themselves…when the dex only makes a big deal out of good use of it coming from certain legendaries

Man-at-Legs is hardly taller
The camera angle skews true size.
Man-at-Legs is default horizontal/diagonal view.
Pileated Snarget is overhead view

You know…I’m still waiting for a reply on the sizes of things in that official Pikmin 2 guide you have…you keep on saying the Pileated Snarget is the tallest thing Olimar fights or so…which still seems to be bigger or around the height as Pikachu IIRC…so I don’t see how that is a big deal…when we’ve already agreed on the main reason for why Pikachu’s height was brought up in the 1st place in regards to a possible dodging of bitter spray due to height and size…

Anyway…I really want to see now just pretty much for the heck of it…

Of course…I don’t know why I’m arguing vs. Pikachu…after all it somehow beat Wario who is pretty much a more dangerous and powerful Mario…but Pika won anyway because of its shear power and not just because the thing has got to be the most overrated thing here…

I don’t even see how only one of them by itself even trained could be fatal to a human anyway according to some of the things talked about in the pokedex with them…

Raichu is different of course…that thing you wouldn’t **** with…

 

[Samochan]

Hey clinton.. you know that by advocating manga as a canon source, you're also implying anime as well should be regarded as a canon source of information, right? =) The same creators who are the main board members of gamefreak who develops pokemon games, are also the creators of pokemon anime. Aka Satoshi Tajiri (who Ash is named after in japan lol), Jun'ichi Masuda and Ken Sugimori. Manga has less, much much less weight as canon source, because it's made by random person completely unrelated to the pokemon series, who made his/her own interpretation of the series. It's like fanfiction/doujinshi. Anime tho, has the same persons overseeing the product as the games have, thus if anything, could be used as canon source of information. Neither are completely accurate sources, however as the pokemon anime has progressed to advanced generation and forward, you see it conflicts with the games much less than in the ages when Pika could zap rhydon in the horn. Nowdays it's the opposite, aka lightningrod ability actually works rofl. Just recently Ash got owned by Paul cause his Pika is weaksauce lol and got first burned by Magmortar's flame body due volt tackle and then managed to paralyze Ursaring with static, but failed again because Ursarign has guts lol. The manga is interpretation by a random person, anime is the visualization and extension of what game has.

But as we all very well know, this topic is strictly about the games, game booklets and stuff that com directly from the creators, aka canon source and that's how it stays. Not manga or anime, which have no relations to the actual games. You adhere to thread rules or you don't discuss in it. >_>

 

[_clinton]

Hey Samochan...I like how you still act like I don't know that the manga is made by someone else other than the people that actually made pokemon...even though I said it wasn't made by the creator in my 1st mentioning of it for this thread...

I also like how you can disregard it because of that...even though the creator of pokemon has said + things about it like how it is pretty much the closest thing to the world that he was thinking about in the 1st place...or how the producer of pokemon flat out said pokemon fans should do themselves a favor and read the bloody stuff...

Oh and I also have to lol at the fact that I've mostly been talking about how the moves are being represented in the stuff...and how unlike the games there is more meaning behind them...I'm haven't really talked about the stories presented in the thing at all...of course that mainly could just because the stories suck in both of them overall (only less so in the manga at least IMO...of course...I haven't read anything beyond Yellow and part of G/S/C...so I still don't know for sure on how to judge them...but whatever on that for now)

Which even then still...in regards to surf in the pokemon games themselves...on the open field instead of just a battle (which I've already said to be full of BS to the point of you can question how accurate it really is) surf can't be used unless you are around water in the 1st place...

How about that...I wonder why that is...of course my main problem with surf is because the battlefield implies stupid things like how the pokemon could have control over mass amounts of water naturally...and can flood the area somehow and everything will be fine after that...

Which reminds me on how certain RPGs like to do stupid things like blow up a chunk of the earth or something like that for a super move...but after-wards everything is ok anyway...except the enemy somehow...

Where as on the open field even for the game...it seems more like they are just using the water naturally to their advantage instead in a way...and like I said already...if the logical point on how Surf works is being applied to this...than Pikachu is out a move that would be useful...because there is no large water source in this field to take advantage of according to the thread...