Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Don't have much time atm, so I'll quickly move on.

Pikachu Vs. Olimar

I'll edit the OP when I get back.

 

[DoonKoon]

Pikachu, next mu please

 

[Diddy Kong]

Pikachu.

Oh, and I want a poll. Will make this thread more lively I think. Also, we'll be seeing what the general public thinks.

 

[IsmaR]

I still say Jiggs has more options to win than for Dedede to beat her.

Current MU is basically Olimar vs Pichu, except twice as one-sided.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Has DeDeDe any healing options? Dunno if Jigglypuff is better offensively... I'm thinking because of her horrible defences, DeDeDe would do more damage than Jigglypuff would.

Anyways, I still want a poll.

 

[the king of murder]

No, Jiggs has no options to KO D3 without being KOed herself. It should be tie. Personally I think D3 would win this match up due to his superior weaponery. I dont agree with a tie but its the best options for this match up.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Anyways, I still want a poll.

A poll on what? And, I don't think I can make a poll in the Opening Page.

 

[Samochan]

No, Jiggs has no options to KO D3 without being KOed herself. It should be tie. Personally I think D3 would win this match up due to his superior weaponery. I dont agree with a tie but its the best options for this match up.

And those "superior" weapon damages can be countered right back at him, his attack reduced and special attack damage halved and wished away. =)

 

[the king of murder]

If she uses Reflect or Light Screen near D3 he already hit her once and that does a good amount of damage. I still think its a tie.

 

[Pokemon Z RPG]

Don't have much time atm, so I'll quickly move on.

Pikachu Vs. Olimar

I'll edit the OP when I get back.

Pikachu, of course, Olimar is a few centimeters tall, so a good stomping should kill him, even.

 

[Samochan]

If she uses Reflect or Light Screen near D3 he already hit her once and that does a good amount of damage. I still think its a tie.

Why would jiggs need to use either near ddd when they don't work like that? >_> Reflect and screen affect jiggs, basically surround it with wall of light that reduces damage from physical and special attacks respectively for duration of 5 turns, unless extended with light clay. It's not a contact move and the effect extends to allies on the field, you do not attack enemy with those moves lol. DDD hasn't shown he can break any such barriers/walls of light either, so it's definitely going to work. And jiggs is not really slower than ddd either, so with the distance they can start with, should be plenty of time to use either one.

On another note, I just played platinum and some npc on trainer school made a remark how pokemon are smart enough to use items on their own, but they do not understand what to do with man made items like potions or pokeballs. Makes sense tho.

 

[Lucario1337]

Pika wins. Olimar is just a inch tall. Pika would be taller then king kong to them. and all but his yellow pikmin would die from the eletricity.

 

[Diddy Kong]

A poll on what? And, I don't think I can make a poll in the Opening Page.

Why not? Just make a simple poll like :

Who should win?
[

Spoiler

X

] Pikachu
[

Spoiler

.

] Olimar

I'm sure we'll be getting more people in here. Of coarse we don't always have to agree with the poll if someone else points out something which changes the whole thing, but at least we get to know what people generally expect. Thus the list posted in the end will be more true on how most people see it...

Anyways, it's your thread. Do with it what you want.

 

[Lord Viper]

If she uses Reflect or Light Screen near D3 he already hit her once and that does a good amount of damage. I still think its a tie.

☆ She better have a Reflect 10x to not take a lot of damage against King Dedede, especially against possessed Dedede. =P ☆

 

[BSP]

Olimar is too small to even harm Pika

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Why not? Just make a simple poll like :

Who should win?
[

Spoiler

X

] Pikachu
[

Spoiler

.

] Olimar

I'm sure we'll be getting more people in here. Of coarse we don't always have to agree with the poll if someone else points out something which changes the whole thing, but at least we get to know what people generally expect. Thus the list posted in the end will be more true on how most people see it...

Anyways, it's your thread. Do with it what you want.

I'll see what I can do.

 

[Crystanium]

Pika wins. Olimar is just a inch tall. Pika would be taller then king kong to them. and all but his yellow pikmin would die from the eletricity.

Prejudice For Pecs

Size is irrelevant, or else Mario shouldn't be able to defeat Bowser, nor Young Link defeat King Dodongo, nor should Samus defeat Kraid. Ness should not be able to defeat Giygas, and hey, Kirby shouldn't win any matches, either.

Olimar is too small to even harm Pika

Who said Olimar was fighting? His Pikmin are great in number. Olimar is about an inch tall, and his Pikmin are a bit taller, like an inch and a half. Even fire ants can fell a human, as can bees. Besides, I doubt the first thing that would come to Pikachu's mind is, "Hey, I'll just stomp on Olimar."

 

[BSP]

Great in number yes, but how durable are they? Oli is the size of a quarter correct? His pikmin are smaller than that. The beasts that they take down must be about the size of a coke can i guess. Do they even stand a chance vs. Pika?

 

[PowerBomb]

Pikmin are half Oli's size, and the beasts they fight might be around the size of a Chihuahua.

 

[REL38]

Olimar is the size of a quarter iirc
Pikmin are a tad bit smaller

Olimar has been able to tank falling rocks and bullet shells
Pikmin have been able to tank smaller scale explosions

Olimar has the Ultra Bitter Spray which can immobilize enemies in a rocky mold, but it won't work on enemies that are too big.
I'd count Pika being too big, due to girth and height.

Due to his size, Olimar won't be dodging any of Pika's attacks.
I just don't see it happening when Pika is on the faster side when it comes to speed.


Any of Pika's electrical based attacks will kill off anything that isn't Olimar or Yellow Pikmin.
A Yellow Pikmin army wouldn't pose much of a problem if Pika aims for Olimar.

Quick Attack, Agility, Thundershock (or w/e), something


Olimar can't win this in any way, shape or form.

 

[_clinton]

No, I meant that when HGSS/Platinum came out, the new move tutors allowed Scizor to shine and tear up the metagame. He really counters many Pokemon, including some Ubers.

So...do you agree with my point on how the move set doesn't always = 100% accurate canon then? Or am I mistaken with this reply you are talking about?

For the record, Heat Wave is blowing a gust of hot air/breath, not shooting fire.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Heat_Wave_(move)
"The user exhales a heated breath on the foe to attack. It may also leave the target with a burn."

It's fire breath...which is what I was saying doesn't make sense when talking about things like Pidgeot...because how can a bird breath fire? (Adding on to that…how can something like a normal rat control the weather when the dex clearly points out that such a thing is limited to various legends?)

I still say Jiggs has more options to win than for Dedede to beat her.

Jiggs doesn't have **** according to the actual canon info from the Dex:
-The best it can do is put D3 to sleep (maybe it has other types of sound based moves though due to how JP putting things to sleep works in the 1st place)
-Build body mass to attack...which requires a lot of time for both...

JP can’t just start singing and make D3 zone out…she has to find the pitch that he is most venerable to for starters according to the Dex.

Current MU is basically Olimar vs Pichu, except twice as one-sided.

Olimar vs. Pichu was BS IMO (not as much BS as Wario vs. Pikachu though at least)…for these reasons:

-Olimar fights things that seem to look around the size of Pikachu and Pichu with his Pikmin for starters...

Pikachu=40.64 cm (13.2 pounds) (average)
Pichu=30.48 cm (4.4 pounds) (average)
Olimar=3.9 cm (with his suit on)

Pikachu is 10.4x the size of Olimar though…while Pichu is 7.8x bigger if you want more numbers…

Which doesn’t make sense when looking at Pichu’s size part…how on earth do female Pikachu/Raichu handle a certain important part of reproduction when Pichu is considered just an average sized baby (I would think the sizes they gave were an average...don't you?) of their species according to the game's canon info????

I mean...no wonder Pikachu's are somewhat rare in the games...anyway going on...

TBH looking at those numbers…Pikachu and Pichu seem like they are the size of some of the normal foes Olimar fights in his game…IMO…or at least only a tiny bit bigger…my point is...their size isn't anything Olimar isn't use to seeing...

-He has Pikmin that are resistant to electricity (yellow of course…who may or may not have access to bomb rocks…it depends on the size of them)
-He himself is protection from electric attacks as well...because of one of his suit upgrades:
http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-Electrifier

-I wonder if we have talked about Olimar’s weapons?
Sprays-Including something like a “Pepper Spray” (at least in the fact that it stuns things…by “turning them to stone”) which won't work on the rodents I guess according to another post...

Maybe...I don't know for sure though...it does work on some large foes IIRC like the Waterwraith or Spotty Bulbear...oh and the final boss of the game as well...although I'll admit it doesn't help much when dealing with the Waterwraith (the thing is made out of what it says it is)

Oh...and again about the speed stat with Pokemon and how things like stats aren't set in stone...but whatever...

However, Olimar also has another spray that makes the Pikmin go bat**** insane for a while in offense (spicy spray)

Rocket Punch-Enough force to kill certain things about 3x Olimar’s size in one hit…I’m pretty sure it won’t work on that level on these two of course…but come on…I’m sure they would at least feel it if hit by it…

Great in number yes, but how durable are they? Oli is the size of a quarter correct? His pikmin are smaller than that. The beasts that they take down must be about the size of a coke can i guess. Do they even stand a chance vs. Pika?

Actually the beasts they fight eat things like a lot bigger than coke cans somehow…but here is an example of a WTF situation:
http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Remembered_Old_Buddy

Lol at that treasure…

Anyway I’m pretty sure ROB’s head is at least close to the size of a 12 oz can of soda…although one has to question why it takes 30 Pikmin to carry ROBs head when things that are clearly bigger than it take less?

Of course this game has a lot of issues with size IMO in more ways then one:
http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Doomsday_Apparatus
It weighs in at 2.2 pounds…if you look at the history for that and some other things about that…it doesn’t makes sense for how many Purple Pikmin it takes to carry it (Like the example in the link says…AA batteries weigh in as much as 25 grams…but you only need 6 normal pikmin to carry the one in Pikmin 2…or one purple…of course…I guess it could be hollow on the inside or something like that…maybe…however, the C battery they find certainly isn’t lacking in space)

Pikmin are half Oli's size, and the beasts they fight might be around the size of a Chihuahua.

I disagree with that size comparison…guess how large an average Pikachu is compared to a Chihuahua? (Fun fact…that is one BIG ****ing mouse on average)
BTW I find this neat:
http://www.pawfectchihuahuas.com/ChihuahuaSize.html

 

[Samochan]

Imo, light ball pikachu would ohko all of olimar's pikmins with one shock wave, as it covers a very large area, gets stab and 2x boost from light ball. Pikmins die when enemies simply chomp on em and pika does more than just chomp. And those chomps are from bugs lol, which in comparison are huge. Olimar is soo small flowers are humongous. Not to mention being bigger and very much faster, olimar cannot hope to catch pika while pika can attack out of his range.

Oh wait, don't all pikmin die if they drown? (cept some water pikmins maybe) If so, surfing pika all the way. xp You can find surfing pikachus from the yellow forest in pokewalker that comes with hgss. It hits both enemies, aka wide range, so it would be quite an ohko.

And clinton, it doesn't say fire breath, but heated. I could exhale heated breath, but I don't spew fire lol. Besides we already have flamethrower for that. You don't get burns from fire alone you know.

Kinda like how meta ridley exhales super-heated plasma instead of fire like normal ridley does lol. Don't assume it means fire because it's has a fire typing. Mega kick is a kick, but it's not fightning type move like hi-jump kick. =)

But yea, it's kinda game mechanic again that a poke can do this and that, like breath heated air/stuff not fire so intense it can burn you. But that's pokemon for you, their powers don't make logical sense.

HOWEVER, what moves gamefreak gives to the pokemons is definitely canon. It's the games, not anime and everything found within the main games is and should be canon information, as it's directly from the source of pokemon creators.

 

[IsmaR]

What Samo said. I think of it like Charizard's F-air in Brawl, he breathes hot/heated air(the STAB boost could come from him actually being able to breathe fire on top of being a fire type) and blows it forward with his wings.

As for not canon because of the Dex, why exactly is that so? They don't exactly cancel each other out, nor do they clearly contradict(save for some things like Pidgeot being faster than Mewtwo, etc., but that pertains to their individual abilities, not their stats. Pidgeot could fly where in a blink, maybe Mewtwo can teleport over a short distance faster than it). Whether you accept it or not, Jiggs and every other pokemon has more than one or a few moves that are mentioned in the Dex. Even if we go by the Sing needs start-up bit mentioned in the Dex, she could set up some protection, Reflect, Light Screen, Substitute, etc., then take the time to land a Sing/attack/w.e.

Lastly, I'm neutral to whether Pichu vs Olimar was fair or not, but Pikachu is more than twice as strong(stronger than Raichu even if it has a Light Ball), and has more attacks to kill than Pichu. That article still says that Oli gets knocked back by certain electrical blasts, and even then, none of these things pack the power Pika does, even without a Light Ball. Shock Wave/Thunderbolt/Volt Tackle to get rid of most of the Pikmen, Quick Attack/Brick Break/Iron Tail to get the stragglers, then whatever attack to KO Olimar. I'd even argue that Pika's electricity would more than overload Oli's suit and kill him instantly.

 

[Samochan]

Pidgeot certainly isn't implied to be able to fly at mach 2 in a blink of an eye and anyplace and everywhere. In fact, it is said that at FULL FLIGHT and being CAPABLE of reaching that speed. Even rapidash needs least 10 steps to reach top speed of 150mph and pidgeot needs to get it's wings open and flap for some speed. It's only said to do so when it can accelerate to full flight speed and there's really no room for pidgeot to go at mach 2 on a battlefield without lol leaving it, thus it's way less agile than say, swellow which is also smaller and build for agile turns and graceful flight at high speeds (like swallows fly in the air. compare pigeon and swallow when they fly around lol). With pidgeot's bigger wingspan and bigger built, it's more clumsier, even it's secondary ability tangled feet reflects this. Note that pidgeot cannot use it's max speed in battle effectively while swellow can and swellow's base speed is 125, only 5 lower than mewtwo's.

So how could or why should pidgeot fly at mach 2 on pokemon battles if it isn't ever said to do so? That's not a contradiction here. =)

So far, the only real "contradictions" that would warrant a ban on CERTAIN DEX ENTRIES would be gyarados, charizard, tyranitar and dusclops. Out of those 496 something pokemon or so lol. Tell me why dex should be banned then when it holds so much other information lik height, weight, classification, typing and 3 of the 4 of these can be explained/proven. As if other games don't have small stuff in them either, but certainly doesn't warrant a ban.

Oh and btw, I again played platinum and I read one trainer tip, that would give some ground to my theory why pokemon can utilize different types of attacks, like rain dance and everything even if such things seems illogical and have no founding within the pokemon's abilities, built, typing or otherwise. The trainer tips said pokemon use energy that's called power points. Basically as long as you have that energy, you can still make moves. Stronger move require more energy to use. Pokemon are also not your regular animals, but creatures that resemble animals that are also way smarter and have different powers, but as pokemons the energy they use is of the same nature.

The energy they use to make attacks is the same, yet utilization is different. It would be akin to us human living the same life and eating the same food, yet we are all different from each other and use our skills differently. If I ate a tomato and went running, someone else could eat a tomato and go running as well, though differently. Or he could do something completely different like go fix his car or something, a special skillset I do not have (while most people are capable of running unless handicapped).

TM's and HM's support this, as certain pokemon can only learn certain tm's, but the tm's are the same for every pokemon and the way tm's are taught is more akin to unlocking pokemon's potential rather than teaching a new move, they absorb the information found inside the disc tm/hm as seen on fr/lg

 

[Diddy Kong]

Wow then Mewtwo seems pretty **** fast...

 

[Samochan]

Wow then Mewtwo seems pretty **** fast...

Well you know, he can levitate, which doesn't require wings nor flapping or anything so he can move more fluidly than any flyer. Plus he can teleport too. >_> It's also said that mewtwo stays unmobile to conserve it's energy so it can unleash it's full potential in battle, so I'd assume he'd rather fly than try to walk, run or dodge around which would prolly need much, much more exertion than simply using his enhanced brain lol. Mewtwo has powerful legs it seems yea, but I cannot see he has too much balance on ground with that huge tail of his, without anything in front to balance the weight issue (he weights over 269lbs aka 122kg), nor I can't see that mass of body weight moving around quicker than a swallow in air with that body build lol.

Heck, even samus uses thrusters to dash around quickly and they basically lift her into the air.

Funnily enough, the only flying pokes able to match mewtwo's speed are aerodactyl (a prehistoric pokemon) and crobat (a bat). Only flying pokemon capable of outspeeding mewtwo is ninjask (a flying bug), who is said to fly at such high speeds it seems to become invinsible. :o

 

[the king of murder]

Why would jiggs need to use either near ddd when they don't work like that? >_> Reflect and screen affect jiggs, basically surround it with wall of light that reduces damage from physical and special attacks respectively for duration of 5 turns, unless extended with light clay. It's not a contact move and the effect extends to allies on the field, you do not attack enemy with those moves lol. DDD hasn't shown he can break any such barriers/walls of light either, so it's definitely going to work. And jiggs is not really slower than ddd either, so with the distance they can start with, should be plenty of time to use either one.

There is a big ,,IF,, in my sentence. I didnt say she would be necessary near him.

If Jiggs uses Reflect and Light Screen she is still able to get KOed or get harmed. It just reduces damage for 5 turns. Nothing more, nothing less. D3 can just wait and defend himself till Jiggs PPs are out.

She doesnt **** this match up. This match up is a tie because of Perish Song.

 

[REL38]

I couldn't find any sizes in the Pikipedia, so I used the ones given in the Pikmin 2 strategy guide (Nintendo Power)

The Pileated Snarget is the tallest enemy, at 400 mm (about 15 in)

The Empress Bulblax is the longest enemy, at 480 mm (about 18 in)

Pikachu is as large as the biggest enemies in Pikmin 2, at about 15 in

Ultra Bitter Spray which immobilizes enemies won't work cuz his girth is similar to that of the Empress Bulblax. Empress Bulblax is not affected by the Bitter Spray due to girth.

Ultra Spicy Spray is the equivalent of steroids.
It ups the attack and speed of all Pikmin.
I don't see it having much any use due to Pika's speed.
With moves like Quick Attack and Agility, Pikmin won't even be able to latch onto Pikachu cuz it'll be wizzing by.

There are no electrical attacks that harm or knock Olimar over in Pikmin 2. He has an upgrade that prevents that.

Yellow Pikmin can only procure bomb rocks on site. I doubt there are any on this nuetral battle field.


An all Yellow (or even mixed) army wouldn't necessarily die from surf.
Olimar can use his whistle to knock Pikmin out of drowning when hit my water based attacks.
But the force would throw them everywhere so repeatitive use would kill most all of them.


Pika can just attack from afar and win that way.
Or just Quick Attack with other big physical attacks.

 

[Samochan]

There is a big ,,IF,, in my sentence. I didnt say she would be necessary near him.

If Jiggs uses Reflect and Light Screen she is still able to get KOed or get harmed. It just reduces damage for 5 turns. Nothing more, nothing less. D3 can just wait and defend himself till Jiggs PPs are out.

She doesnt **** this match up. This match up is a tie because of Perish Song.

With counter, dedede really needs to beware of hitting jiggs with physical attacks at all, unless he wants to get owned back. With wish, stalling or defending won't work against jiggs and jiggs also has long ranged moves so ddd can't camp and defend himself forever cause he himself lacks healing moves, nor does he have the speed to evade each and every jiggs attack. Add in the fact that jiggs can also get a lucky burn/frozen solid if jiggs uses flamethrower/ice beam, and never forget toxicstall that'll destroy dedede no matter how he tries to defend. Even if jiggs defences are weak, due to that huge amount of hp, jiggs can take lots of punishment and I really find it doubtful dedede has the actual strenght to ohko jiggs in one go, considering he's only the same relative size as jiggs is. Add in reflect that halves physical damage and possibly even defence boost in the form of defence curl and attack lowering (charm criples physical attackers, no matter which one and ddd is no powerhouse. heck, -1 intimidate makes every physical sweeper weep, but charm is -2), ddd won't be ohkoing anyone, much less hurting.

Wish/reflect/protect/toxic and leftovers to recover 1/16th of that massive hp every turn keke. And basically protect enables double lefties recovery and double poison damage. =) And if you wanna be picky, wide lens to boost accuracy by 10%.

And besides, if you're hell bent on jiggs getting ohkoed for some reason, then focus sash jiggs + counter should do the trick well. >_>

Max ev's on hp and def and +nature on defence helps quite a lot on this matchup too. =)

 

[the king of murder]

With counter, dedede really needs to beware of hitting jiggs with physical attacks at all, unless he wants to get owned back. With wish, stalling or defending won't work against jiggs and jiggs also has long ranged moves so ddd can't camp and defend himself forever cause he himself lacks healing moves, nor does he have the speed to evade each and every jiggs attack. Add in the fact that jiggs can also get a lucky burn/frozen solid if jiggs uses flamethrower/ice beam, and never forget toxicstall that'll destroy dedede no matter how he tries to defend. Even if jiggs defences are weak, due to that huge amount of hp, jiggs can take lots of punishment and I really find it doubtful dedede has the actual strenght to ohko jiggs in one go, considering he's only the same relative size as jiggs is. Add in reflect that halves physical damage and possibly even defence boost in the form of defence curl and attack lowering (charm criples physical attackers, no matter which one and ddd is no powerhouse. heck, -1 intimidate makes every physical sweeper weep, but charm is -2), ddd won't be ohkoing anyone, much less hurting.

Wish/reflect/protect/toxic and leftovers to recover 1/16th of that massive hp every turn keke. And basically protect enables double lefties recovery and double poison damage. =) And if you wanna be picky, wide lens to boost accuracy by 10%.

And besides, if you're hell bent on jiggs getting ohkoed for some reason, then focus sash jiggs + counter should do the trick well. >_>

Max ev's on hp and def and +nature on defence helps quite a lot on this matchup too. =)

Jiggs has weak states. How is she able to inflict real damage to him? Flamethrower and the like wont do much against D3. He is more durable than you think. Counter only works on physical moves. D3 has special attacks that do a good amount of damage. D3 is slow, yes but Jiggs is definitively not faster. He can float, he can jump and if he keeps a good distance than D3 can avoid almost all of her attacks. Also D3 stole the Star Rod in Kirby´s Adventure so he can use it in this fight which would be a little helpful.

Now dont get me wrong, I dont think D3 has the options to KO Jiggs so easily and that is why I was leaning on a tie.

Jiggs cannot KO D3 either for the same reason.

 

[REL38]

@Murder

Did D3 actually use the Star Rod?

 

[Samochan]

Now dont get me wrong, I dont think D3 has the options to KO Jiggs so easily and that is why I was leaning on a tie.

Jiggs cannot KO D3 either for the same reason.

Toxicstall ;> Jiggs doesn't need direct attacking method to ko ddd.

Jiggs also learns gravity. :>

And seismic toss all the way too lol, no need for attack. Since ddd has somewhat over 400hp, he dies from 5 hits (lv100 jiggs does 100 hp damage worth with toss).

 

[IsmaR]

Murder, you're contradicting yourself like crazy. And you're ignoring half the points pointed out(lol) about this. Even if Jiggs defense was that bad, Focus Sash + Counter or Substitute/Wish/Leftovers/etc. stalling would make her endure longer.

And no, he only stole the rod, I do thinks.

 

[the king of murder]

@Murder

Did D3 actually use the Star Rod?

Oh, Im sorry. I think I didnt remembered it clearly. D3 actually broke the Star Rod into 7 parts and he only kept one of them....Still Jiggs is not able to KO him.

And another question here: Why are the wild pokemons allowed to learn TMs or Tutor Move? They were never capable of doing so in their games(well without a Trainer). I dont know if you guys talked about it already.

@Samochan
Yeah, Seismic Toss and Toxic. I have already said those attacks are effective. What else? She has to approach D3 since Seismic Toss is a physical fight attack and Toxic has bad accuracy(85) and it wont hit if D3 keeps a good distance. Also steel is immune against poison in PKM, right? Masked D3 has a steel hammer and a steel mask so he can easily block this. And the danger that she would get hit if Jiggs approachs is great.

<_< Really I dont think Jiggs should win. No matter what you tell me I am not going to change my opinion.

@IsmaR
I did agree that D3 is not able to KO Jiggs. You should read my post again. But Jiggs wont do much against D3 either.
You guys give D3 no credits at all.

 

[IsmaR]

I'd rather Dee win this. I said that since I started arguing. I'm fully aware of all his abilities, but they aren't as overpoweredgood as some people have been making them out to be. And you've been saying that Dedede could KO Jiggs like nothing and keep shooting down legit things Jiggs can do according to the games.
lol@MaskDededebeingsteeltype

 

[the king of murder]

Well that was in the beginning of the match up. I didnt had much time so I replied fast. Yes I admit that I put her down. Now that I see more potential in her I am leaning on a tie. But then you guys put down D3 how he is not able to even touch Jiggs and how much she ***** him. Jiggs powers are not worse than D3s but also not better.

 

[Samochan]

Oh, Im sorry. I think I didnt remembered it clearly. D3 actually broke the Star Rod into 7 parts and he only kept one of them....Still Jiggs is not able to KO him.

And another question here: Why are the wild pokemons allowed to learn TMs or Tutor Move? They were never capable of doing so in their games(well without a Trainer). I dont know if you guys talked about it already.

@Samochan
Yeah, Seismic Toss and Toxic. I have already said those attacks are effective. What else? She has to approach D3 since Seismic Toss is a physical fight attack and Toxic has bad accuracy(85) and it wont hit if D3 keeps a good distance. Also steel is immune against poison in PKM, right? Masked D3 has a steel hammer and a steel mask so he can easily block this. And the danger that she would get hit if Jiggs approachs is great.

<_< Really I dont think Jiggs should win. No matter what you tell me I am not going to change my opinion.

@IsmaR
I did agree that D3 is not able to KO Jiggs. You should read my post again. But Jiggs wont do much against D3 either.
You guys give D3 no credits at all.

TM's have been allowed for a while back. In PMD games pokes can fully utilize tm's without trainer assistance. Trainer school npc on the main games even makes a remark how pokemon are smart enough to use items on their own. Personally I haven't used tutor moves for these pokes tho, as the only way to have tutor moves is to have human tutor a pokemon while tm's are found from the wild in both main and pmd games.

While seismic toss might be a contact move shur, Toxic is not and 85% accuracy is not too bad, only misses occasionally. Below 80% is where it gets iffy. Besides it can be boosted with wide lens to 95%, which is sure to hit dedede. Distance doesn't have much to do with it tho, unless ddd goes out of bounds like airborne as he's not agile enough to dodge things (and jiggs being the same size can spray toxic quite far in ddd's measurements and ddd is not too much of a jumper, least not a fast one).

While steel-typing is immune to poison, the pokemon itself is of a steel type, meaning it's made of steel and/or has steel qualities in it's whole body. A simple mask or hammer certainly won't protect ddd against spray of poison. >_> Pokes are immune because they are not affected by the toxins like poison types or immunity-pokes aren't, not because they can block it. It even says "it does not affect the pokemon", it says nothing about blocking and with jiggs spraying over ddd's size of poisonous substance on top of him, he can't seriously manage to block all of it. And I doubt the poison just disappears if it hits his hammer or mask.

There's a fact tho that ddd can't keep from getting poisoned forever and he has no healing moves, while jiggs has leftovers + wish, which are both significantly boosted with protect. Then jiggs can charm, reflect and screen to reduce damage a fair lot, halved damage is nothing to sneeze at.

And what makes you assume ddd even deals much, if at all damage to jiggs just cause jiggs doesn't have much defences? Jiggs takes blows from much much stronger opponents of much bigger size and survives, for example jiggs can take a stone edge from adamant tyranitar and survive with 1/4 of health left. That's 403 attack + stab from 100 base power attack there , stone edge is when you get stabbed by a sharpened stone which I imagine would be super painful coming from a 134 base attack, over 200kg and 2metres tall stone lizard pokemon that also gets stab boost and said to bring down mountains with it's arms. >_> DDD's hammer has nothing on tyranitar lol. If kirby is about 20cm tall and ddd's a bit larger and puff is 50cm... that makes the hammer around 1/3-1/4 of jiggs size? Really, jiggs shrugs off aqua tail from gyarados (the very same poke that destroys cities on a rampage and caused the lake of rage incident) with one third of health left and survives an Outrage from adamant Salamence. That's 120 base power attack with stab from 405 attack stat. DDD's hammer starts to seem very puny in comparison. <_<

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ King Dedede's size is very debatable, some games he look like he's two feet compare to Kirby, (Kirby Dreamland, Dreamland 2), some games he looks just about five feet compare to Kirby, (Kirby Super Star/Ultra, Kirby Squeak Squad), and Kirby Air Ride... well does VS King Dedede count? You know, him being too big while riding a bike. =P ☆

 

[PowerBomb]

Samochan, the Gyarados bit makes me look forward to HGSS. One more month...

Anyway, I can confirm that Jigglypuff does indeed lose 3/4 of its HP against Max Att (252 Attack Evs, Adamant nature) Tyranitar using Stone Edge. However, Jigglypuff must have 252 HP and Defense EVs, and a Bold Nature. In fact, if Jigglypuff lacks Defense EVs, it gets mauled.

 

[_clinton]

Man...it is a pain to make these posts...

Imo, light ball pikachu would ohko all of olimar's pikmins with one shock wave, as it covers a very large area, gets stab and 2x boost from light ball. Pikmins die when enemies simply chomp on em and pika does more than just chomp. And those chomps are from bugs lol, which in comparison are huge. Olimar is soo small flowers are humongous. Not to mention being bigger and very much faster, olimar cannot hope to catch pika while pika can attack out of his range.

No offense…but I think you are comparing the “earth” that Olimar visits way too much to ours…It may be “our” earth…according to the games…but Pokemon/Mother/and some other things are set in “our” earth as well…

However, last I checked our earth doesn’t have things like metal spiders packing heat…oh and the bugs are a lot bigger as well by comparison…in case you can’t see it…of course…the bugs and everything else are a lot bigger in other games as well…but whatever

But I like how you didn’t catch my point about 100 purple pikmin being needed to carry 2.2 pounds and they are 10x stronger than Reds for starters…but a AA battery only needs 6 pikmin…even though AA batteries weigh in at 25 grams
Pikmin is clearly guilty of this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale

I mean…Olimar’s ship in the games has enough power to blow up stars…
(but at least nothing will beat Metroid’s record with that trope)

Oh wait, don't all pikmin die if they drown? (cept some water pikmins maybe) If so, surfing pika all the way. xp You can find surfing pikachus from the yellow forest in pokewalker that comes with hgss. It hits both enemies, aka wide range, so it would be quite an ohko.

I already gave my opinion about moves which have no hint at all of being talked about in the dex…but you seem to think they should count because they are talked about in game according to your statement here…

Oh and btw, I again played platinum and I read one trainer tip, that would give some ground to my theory why pokemon can utilize different types of attacks, like rain dance and everything even if such things seems illogical and have no founding within the pokemon's abilities, built, typing or otherwise. The trainer tips said pokemon use energy that's called power points. Basically as long as you have that energy, you can still make moves. Stronger move require more energy to use. Pokemon are also not your regular animals, but creatures that resemble animals that are also way smarter and have different powers, but as pokemons the energy they use is of the same nature.

I guess I should give my view on why they would do this…
Pokemon is an RPG for starters…RPGs are a bit more complex than many other game types such as platformers…so of course they are going to give a longer talk about things in it that may only be part of the game mechs. for the player in game…

Which btw…if you want to go by those rules thinking they are canon proof for you…you’d better do it with everything else that does it…because Pokemon isn’t the only game out there that in game explains how the game mechs. work:
The Mother series does it as well with its game mechs. for example it explains stuff like Rolling HP, stats, the combo system for 3, and even saving…are talked through with various things like birds, moles, and bugs…and they even have fun breaking the 4th wall/rules while doing it (Telepathy for one thing has been called a psychic power sense the 1st game…but the game doesn’t mind breaking its own rules for certain exceptions such as game play in case you can’t tell by Jeff, Flint, and Duster being able to do it)

So…We’ve already talked about why something like Rolling HP isn’t 100% accurate to the true canon and for good reason…why isn’t Pokemon’s part about explaining in the way the mother games do for pretty much doing the same thing being counted as fact?

it doesn't say fire breath, but heated. I could exhale heated breath, but I don't spew fire lol. Besides we already have flamethrower for that. You don't get burns from fire alone you know.

So…did you not notice the difference between flamethrower and heat wave? You are aware heat wave is stronger by a small amount, and hits both foes if in a double battle…but is a bit less accurate…

Of course…why don’t you look and see just what learns Heat wave?
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/heatwave.shtml

The only things that are learning it are:
-Fire pokemon of course
-Dragon pokemon (with an exception with Kingdra…for a good reason of course)
-Pretty much every Flying pokemon that clearly has no business learning it if looking at the things that naturally learn it by level up

How can you tell me it wasn’t put in as a counter when before…pretty much every steel walled flying pokemon…it is clearly put in as a chance for certain pokemon to counter steel pokemon

Of course…I also want to know why you think it isn’t “fire” in the same way “flamethrower” is just because it comes up with the phrase “heated breath” (which is pretty much clear as day a fire breath when looking at the attack animation…unless you want to factor something like Bowser’s fire breath as different)

But yea, it's kinda game mechanic again that a poke can do this and that, like breath heated air/stuff not fire so intense it can burn you. But that's pokemon for you, their powers don't make logical sense.

Only if you take everything said in the pokedex as 100% fact and completely not facture in things like:
-The people of the pokemon world don’t know everything about pokemon
-The people who made the dex have canon proof in game stating that the thing is sort of exaggerated for what the things do…
The dex is by far a better measure for the pokemon than their bloody move pool is (in fact…maybe you haven’t noticed…but the move pool is bulked up a lot by coping one move and just changing the type on it…Roll out…meet Ice Ball if you don’t get my point)

(like swallows fly in the air. compare pigeon and swallow when they fly around lol). With pidgeot's bigger wingspan and bigger built, it's more clumsier, even it's secondary ability tangled feet reflects this. Note that pidgeot cannot use it's max speed in battle effectively while swellow can and swellow's base speed is 125, only 5 lower than mewtwo's.

Tangled Feet=Tottering Steps
And as the definition of the term shows along with how Pokemon is using it…walking unsteadily or shakily…only when confused

So...Pidgeot’s said skill doesn’t activate unless something causes it confusion somehow…so I’m in disagreement about it being clumsy 100% of the time…Just only when it is in a very difficult situation (because the dex does point out that by the time Pidgeot is heard…it is well gone…and the thing hunts as well)

But yeah…I do of course agree with you on the issue of Pidgeot not being able to go at Mach 2 right away of course…

However, do keep in mind that the size of it isn’t meant to be clumsy…it’s more or less to be ironically a symbol for power if what the dex says is true about Pidgeot…which is kind of annoying because it certainly isn't the best pokemon out there...

So far, the only real "contradictions" that would warrant a ban on CERTAIN DEX ENTRIES would be gyarados, charizard, tyranitar and dusclops.

Wait…how is Gyarados’ entry a bad one if you don’t mind my asking for this?
Things like G/S/C’s Lake of Rage do show off what Gyarados are capable of if pissed off…it can leave “ruins” in its wake if in a group…
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Lake_of_rage

And as for the other ones…it’s because they can destroy/take hits from anything right? As in…we are in agreement that “invincibility of some sort” is BS in the pokemon world (so…why aren’t we doing that applying that same idea to things like the Metroid, Mario, and Zelda games as well already instead of letting it fly?)

Out of those 496 something pokemon or so lol. Tell me why dex should be banned then when it holds so much other information lik height, weight, classification, typing and 3 of the 4 of these can be explained/proven. As if other games don't have small stuff in them either, but certainly doesn't warrant a ban.

Well…at least we can agree on the fact that the Dex being banned is a bad idea…

Whether you accept it or not, Jiggs and every other pokemon has more than one or a few moves that are mentioned in the Dex. Even if we go by the Sing needs start-up bit mentioned in the Dex, she could set up some protection, Reflect, Light Screen, Substitute, etc., then take the time to land a Sing/attack/w.e.

Jiggs and every other pokemon have more than a few moves not talked about in the dex directly…I’m ok with that…but what I’m not ok with is 400 some odd pokemon having control over the weather when the dex clearly points out how that is wrong…and a bunch of other moves that have no logical explanation for how they work when looking at what the dex says about them

Heat Wave is only one move with Pidgeot that doesn’t make sense…looking at things like secret power…hidden power…are just another batch of moves that many pokemon have that don’t make sense (I could go on with this list if I want to)…oh and the idea of how pokemon are born still creeps the **** out of me…do you really think the day care system works that way?

Lastly, I'm neutral to whether Pichu vs Olimar was fair or not, but Pikachu is more than twice as strong(stronger than Raichu even if it has a Light Ball), and has more attacks to kill than Pichu. That article still says that Oli gets knocked back by certain electrical blasts, and even then, none of these things pack the power Pika does, even without a Light Ball. Shock Wave/Thunderbolt/Volt Tackle to get rid of most of the Pikmen, Quick Attack/Brick Break/Iron Tail to get the stragglers, then whatever attack to KO Olimar. I'd even argue that Pika's electricity would more than overload Oli's suit and kill him instantly.

K 1st off…canon wise you need a large pack of Pikachu to generate lightning storms if you want a comparison...although we don't know how large they are or how many are needed…but it certainly is more than one...
2nd off Pichu’s shock isn’t that much to a normal human as well (it can shock us by comparison at least) but Pichu can pack the light ball as well…and you’ve brought up some other things with stats that don’t make sense already as well…but whatever…they aren’t the only ones (again…the stats differ depending on the type of the game being played…just look at PMD)

Do you see why the stats in the pokemon world don’t make sense with Pichu barely being able to harm a human…I mean...they would feel it...but I hardly think they would be hurt from it...but can cause a respectable dent in the games GODS going by the game mechs?

Oh and Olimar gets knocked back by certain electric attacks…they don’t do any damage...just making sure you know that…and even then...I really have to wonder just how deadly they would be to him when comparing some of the other electrical outlets he can experience...

I couldn't find any sizes in the Pikipedia, so I used the ones given in the Pikmin 2 strategy guide (Nintendo Power)

I disagree with that guide’s size info in saying the Snarget is the tallest foe...there are plenty of foes in Pikmin 1&2 that seem a lot larger than the Snarget in height from looking at the various bosses in the games...such as this thing for starters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB_yDmxhtVc&feature=related

But…what makes you think Pika’s girth is around Empress Bulblax’s?

I don't see how Pikachu is anywhere near as much of a fatty as that thing...

Who BTW EB can be stoned…The EB can be petrified if the spray is released on the middle of its torso…according to the Pikmin wiki…

Also...the spray still work on things like the final boss of that game…which seems larger than a Pikachu if you ask me…so if they can work on that…why wouldn’t they work on Pika?

I don't see it having much any use due to Pika's speed.
With moves like Quick Attack and Agility, Pikmin won't even be able to latch onto Pikachu cuz it'll be wizzing by.

Again…stats vary depending on the pokemon game in question…
But I do think Pika is faster of course…what with being a mouse…of course…pretty much everything is faster than the Pikmin total…that isn’t how they win though…the usual strategy seems to be “tire the foe out somehow…then attack” when it comes to these games…

Pika can just attack from afar and win that way.
Or just Quick Attack with other big physical attacks.

Just wondering…how much of a range advantage do you think Pikachu has?
Certain games clearly have different values for how much range the moves have (for example in PMD…Quick attack has 2x the range of the "normal attack" working for it)

And what makes you assume ddd even deals much, if at all damage to jiggs just cause jiggs doesn't have much defences? Jiggs takes blows from much much stronger opponents of much bigger size and survives, for example jiggs can take a stone edge from adamant tyranitar and survive with 1/4 of health left. That's 403 attack + stab from 100 base power attack there , stone edge is when you get stabbed by a sharpened stone which I imagine would be super painful coming from a 134 base attack, over 200kg and 2metres tall stone lizard pokemon that also gets stab boost and said to bring down mountains with it's arms. >_> DDD's hammer has nothing on tyranitar lol. If kirby is about 20cm tall and ddd's a bit larger and puff is 50cm... that makes the hammer around 1/3-1/4 of jiggs size? Really, jiggs shrugs off aqua tail from gyarados (the very same poke that destroys cities on a rampage and caused the lake of rage incident) with one third of health left and survives an Outrage from adamant Salamence. That's 120 base power attack with stab from 405 attack stat. DDD's hammer starts to seem very puny in comparison. <_<

You’re thing right there and saying Jiggs can take that stuff lets me again remind you that the only reason she can is because of the game mechs. for the pokemon games…according to the canon info on her being considered pretty much the same as a balloon/ball of some sort…

Again…it seems I must post this video of a Magikarp doing an awesome sweep to a bunch of Uber pokes…how come you think the game mechs. that allow something like this to happen are an example of true canon in the pokemon games? If this fight was based off what the true canon says about these types…there is no way this would happen…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye7b3bOQ6lY

It certainly is neat to watch though…