Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[Kewkky]

Hmm, I don't really know how the Aether will hit Sonic. If it's still by chance that Ike gets a power surge and continues with the Aether like it happens in the game, then it gets even harder for Ike to hit Sonic (for example) with it... Since that's how it happens in the game, and this is a "if they are true to their games" thread, then I guess Ike will just have to be lucky if he gets close enough to Sonic.

 

[Ussi]

Chapter 28 in Path of radiance..... That is the ultimate test of luck and patience. If aether doesn't activate.. You lose... And start the ENTIRE chapter over.

At least here Sonic can't hurt Ike

 

[Kewkky]

Chapter 28 in Path of radiance..... That is the ultimate teat of luck and patience. If aether doesn't activate.. You lose...

That was an awesome mission, I love hard games. First play, I went to the highest difficulty. :D

I don't remember how I passed it, but I can assure you that I didn't depend on Aether. In fact (and this is true), I didn't even know I had Aether until I went against Ashnard. And even then, I didn't depend on it (I killed him and used Brom as a shield, Brom always survived Ashnard's attacks) : |

 

[Ussi]

That was an awesome mission, I love hard games. First play, I went to the highest difficulty. :D

I don't remember how I passed it, but I can assure you that I didn't depend on Aether. In fact (and this is true), I didn't even know I had Aether until I went against Ashnard. And even then, I didn't depend on it (I killed him and used Brom as a shield, Brom always survived Ashnard's attacks) : |

You have to teach Ike aether with an Occult O.o...... Well its possible using a upgraded Mist to heal Ike during the chapter 28

Spoiler

fight against the black knight, also you are allowed to run away and if 5 turns pass its a stalemate and the game moves on

 

[Kewkky]

You have to teach Ike aether with an Occult O.o...... Well its possible using a upgraded Mist to heal Ike during the chapter 28

Spoiler

fight against the black knight, also you are allowed to run away and if 5 turns pass its a stalemate and the game moves on

Then that proves my point more! :D I don't even remember when I unlocked what stuff, but I DO remember fighting Ashnard with mages between a bridge, Brom on one side, Ike on the other, Tibarn following Ashnard around, my healer healing everyone who got hit by Ashnard if the vulneraries didn't do the trick), and everyone carrying LOTS of elixirs and vulneraries. None of my units died since it was a pretty cheap strategy, and I lol'd when I told my friends due to how crappy it sounded.

Point is, Aether is based on a luck factor, making it harder to hit invulnerable opponents with it... And even harder if they can weave in and out at supersonic speeds, or if they can attack you from afar, or if they can mind-control you... However, if Ike manages to get a hit in, it's some pretty sexy damage. Sad thing is, it's not an OHKO, so if the opposing character survives, it's back to the luck factor for Ike.

 

[Ussi]

The only thing is Sonic can't hurt Ike, but since Ike can possible hurt Sonic it's only a matter of time

and for perspective.. There is no Ike vs Naesala (fastest unit in game) but there is Ike vs Tibarn (46 speed slower by 4 to Naesala) and Ike has a 78% chance to hit him. Sonic is probably like a 50% chance for Ike to hit.

 

[Kewkky]

Ok, I guess that's all good and I can see Ike having the advantage there.

Still, what about the multiple posts done about Ike not being truly invincible, like this one (the first one which was longer is somewhere else in this thread, and I don't wanna look for it, but I guess this'll do)?

 

[missingnomaster]

The only thing is Sonic can't hurt Ike, but since Ike can possible hurt Sonic it's only a matter of time

and for perspective.. There is no Ike vs Naesala (fastest unit in game) but there is Ike vs Tibarn (46 speed slower by 4 to Naesala) and Ike has a 78% chance to hit him. Sonic is probably like a 50% chance for Ike to hit.

Are you considering just how fast super sonic speeds are? Hyper Sonic may even be able to move at (drumroll) hyper sonic speeds... Though I don't think that's been confirmed.


Still, Sonic would lose if he had to run away constantly.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Are you considering just how fast super sonic speeds are? Hyper Sonic may even be able to move at (drumroll) hyper sonic speeds... Though I don't think that's been confirmed.


Still, Sonic would lose if he had to run away constantly.

lol ike already beat sonic i just brought it up because the reason was sonic can't hurt ike and the only way he could bring about a draw was if he stole ike's weapon but ike has more than 1 so it was an ike victory. I thought the reason should be that ike can hurt sonic though and sonic can't hurt ike, either with aether or by being a chaos entity.

Ok, I guess that's all good and I can see Ike having the advantage there.

Still, what about the multiple posts done about Ike not being truly invincible, like this one (the first one which was longer is somewhere else in this thread, and I don't wanna look for it, but I guess this'll do)?

people like that didn't pay attention in RD http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9001498&postcount=7806

Just to elaborate on the blessing again. To hurt the people blessed by ashera you need a blessed weapon or to be blessed your self. Yune said her blessing was equal and opposite to ashera's which means that the same is needed to hurt you if you are blessed by Yune.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ You have to look at Kirby's size, and look at the size of the other Kirby eneimes in his game, (Whipsy Wood or Dyna Blade for example, they are much much bigger than a little 1-2 feet), and Crash still does at least half or almost half the damage to the bosses. It's too risky for Fox to shoot down Kirby if Kirby uses Mirror because Kirby will reflect the lasers right back at him, even if Fox throw out his Smart Bomb, it's still reflectable, and the Mirror shield will protect Kirby. If Kirby want's to rival Fox in the air, Kirby will uses his Star Ship to fight Fox in the air. Let's not forget, Kirby took down a Galactic Overlord with that ship. Sure Kirby can use his Warp Star to, it goes faster than Fox's Arwing because it can easily go pass the atmosphere with no problem while Fox has to prepare to go to the atmosphere. ☆

☆ So let's see the current battle, if Kirby were to use his Mirror power, he can use his Mirror shield to reflect all of Fox's lasers and his Smart Bomb's, (unless it's Star Fox Command's Smart Bomb's, then Kirby just has to block it or dodge it). Kirby can stoot stars out of his Ship and Warp Star which goes really fast and can perform a good amount of damage, (the same as the Star Rod from Kirby Adventure), Fox's Arwing will be destroyed unless he just tries to hold out and find a weak spot, good luck with that. So with his Arwing limited, and his on foot options are very limited, I'm sure you know where I'm getting at. ☆

☆ Did anyone bother to read this.... or correct the mistakes at least. ._. ☆

☆ Looks like I'm not needed on this current discussion, lol. ☆

 

[warpd]

Is Kirby allowed to use his end-game items? I mean the emeralds for Sonic are considered end game items.

 

[missingnomaster]

If you mean stuff like the Star Rod, and Triple Star, then yes.

 

[BSP]

Invulnerability after getting hit is a simple game mechanic. There are even cases where same character gets it on one game and on another doesn't (samus in 2D games and prime respectively). Nothing about the characters themselves validates invincibility after getting hit either, So what validates SS's ring limit?it's just there for player's benefit. Same for the ring limit It's not explained, Ring limit too it's not part of the characters abilities, it can be abused and glitched... it is simply there to prevent players from getting stuck onto enemy every single frame your hitboxes are tangent, it would create huge problems if this wasn't the case unless every enemy ohkos on hit. It's there to make sure that sonic doesn't just ail through the final boss There are certain mechanics we follow here, but some are just very dumb and poor additions, like mario getting health from surfacing on water (though there's no water here, but it's beside the point) and heck, absolutely true to game mechanics would mean neither sonic nor samus could run at sonic speeds cause they don't do so ingame Actually, he might in unleashed, but the speed thing just says 'speed', no mph or anything, even though their abilities are described. Nor could you ever attack pokemon trainer, for instance and pokemons couldn't ever, ever die on battle. Then RPG turn based mechanics, hit points etc.

SS's ring limit has the same qualities of the things we ignore, why do we apply it then?Why are we ignoring some game mechanics (invulnerability after getting hit, Link's epona invincibility), but applying others? (SS's ring count, same exact status. No official explanation.)

Sorry, when I said no proof, I meant that, you're bringing games that contradict every other game but without explanation why. Oh ok, i see, if you mean an explanation to why they contradict the other gamesLike the Pokedex, if someone came into a thread and said that we shouldn't listen to the pokedex since it breaks canon but he didn't prove it, why should we listen to him? (I know someone did prove it wrong, just an example). If you bring 1 and a half games (since it acts as a ring couter for the PS2/Wii one) into the conversation, you should back it up, you've said that the ring thing breaks canon and nothing can hit him out of it (unless Chaos), yet lets not forget he has been knocked out of Super Sonic in Sonic Advance 2, again that was atmospheric re entry, and in actual gameplay of Sonic Adventure 2, he's fine during atmospheric re entry. do they cancel or something, or gameplay > cutscene? which just contradicts Unleased.

You are right, I can't find an official explanation to why They suddenly changed the ring limit qualities. But, the ring limit is still a silly game mech, just like invulnerability to being hit, and should be ignored.

There can be plenty of reasons he actually gets knocked out. not forgetting that sapping away his life by life, you mean rings, which is still a game mech. If we ignore it, they arent sapping anything. seems like a big thing, I don't think it's like me trying to prove that invulnerability after being hit should be allowed since it has been around in every game, i know, but we ignore it, and SS's ring limit has as much validity as it it more like that I think Knuckles actually being able to knock out Sonic of his invincibilty shouldn't be allowed because it only appeared in one game without any proof at all. Agreed



Well, I think they should count as long as they don't contrdict stuff, like that example I gave. Cutscenes are obviously canon, but when they contridict like that bomb thing, that shouldn't be counted IMO.

But, by this same logic I should then allow other stuff as well. Link riding on Epona, for example. ? No.... It was never explained why he was invulnerable to (almost) everything when he rid it. Or Link shooting his arrow towards the sun and getting back a fire arrow. This is just what GaleKill was trying to bring up.

I really don't think I should allow infinite super sonic now.

No, you don't get what I'm saying. We ignore Link's invincibility on epona because it has no explanation to it. SS's ring limit is the same way. If we apply SS's ring limit, tehn we should apply Link's invincibility, since they have the same amount of validity. I'm trying to say that we are ignoring some things, but we are applying some things with the same amount of validity. If we are ignoring Link's invincibility, we should ignore Sonic's ring count too. On the other side, if you apply SS's ring limit, you should apply epona invincibility, since they are pretty much the same (game mechs wwith no explanation.)

Look at it this way: We ignore Link's invincibility on Epona because it is un-explained. But, we are applying SS's ring limit here because......(there is no official reason). Why are we ignoring one game mechanic (Link) and applying another (SS's ring count) If im a link supporter, i could argue to allow Link's epona invincibility right now since you apply other explanationless game mechs (SS's ring count)

You get me? If you apply SS's ring count, you should apply invulnerability after getting hit and Link's invincibility because you are allowing a game mech. with no explanation. If you dont apply the ring count, Link stays non-invincible and invulnerability after getting hit doesn't apply. Still, my main point is that we are ignoring some things, but applying other game mechanics that have the same amount of validity (none, no official explanation.)

i though it was just chaos entities.. Anyways

Ike's aether has the ability to ignore defense for the 2nd hit.

The only thing is Sonic can't hurt Ike, but since Ike can possible hurt Sonic it's only a matter of time

and for perspective.. There is no Ike vs Naesala (fastest unit in game) but there is Ike vs Tibarn (46 speed slower by 4 to Naesala) and Ike has a 78% chance to hit him. Sonic is probably like a 50% chance for Ike to hit.

Uh, im kinda doubtfull that aether can hurt sonic (we're dealing with power that has control over life and death here). But if ike can hurt sonc, he still loses. That i agree on. But can ike really hurt sonic?

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Look at it this way: We ignore Link's invincibility on Epona because it is un-explained. But, we are applying SS's ring limit here because......(there is no official reason).

There may not be any written explanation, but that is still very well part of the game. If I were to allow infinite super sonic now, then there will be many other people bringing up things that aren't "explained" and telling me to allow this and that. And trust me. There are a lot.

The Chaos Emeralds are seven emeralds (six in the original, eight in Sonic The Fighters, numerous emeralds in Sonic Spinball, and seven in every other game) with mystical powers, and a recurring feature of Sonic games. According to official sources, the emeralds can turn thoughts into power,[39] give energy to all living things, and be used to create nuclear or laser based weaponry.[40]

They are the basis of many of the games' plots, and the player is frequently required to collect them all to fully defeat Doctor Robotnik and achieve the games' "good endings", super forms, or both. The method used to acquire the Emeralds and the result in collecting them differs between titles in the series. Most early games require the player to find the emeralds in Special Stages.[38] In some games, such as Sonic R and the 8-bit versions of Sonic the Hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog 2, the emeralds can be found in hidden locations within the main levels. In most later games, the Chaos Emeralds are acquired by the characters during the course of cut scenes in the games' story modes, and do not need to be collected by the player. The Chaos Emeralds have gone through various redesigns as the series evolved, beginning as hexagons and later being portrayed in the brilliant cut shape.

In Sonic the Hedgehog 2, [[Sonic the Hedgehog 3, Sonic & Knuckles and Sonic 3 & Knuckles, gathering all the Chaos Emeralds allows Sonic to turn into Super Sonic by collecting 50 rings and jumping in midair. Its effects are similar to a combination of the Invincibility and Super Speed power-ups. Whilst transformed, the ring count slowly drains, and when it reaches 0, Sonic reverts to his normal form. In Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Sonic the Hedgehog 2 featuring Knuckles the Echidna Knuckles can also transform into Super Knuckles. In Sonic 3 & Knuckles, players can obtain Super Emeralds that enable the player to transform into Hyper Sonic, Hyper Knuckles and Super Tails forms, which take on character-specific abilities in addition to the properties of Super Sonic.

In Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow the Hedgehog showed that the Chaos Emeralds have the power to control time and space (Chaos Control) and striking foes (Chaos Spear). Also in Shadow the Hedgehog (video game) he shows that the Chaos Emeralds can destroy anything and everything within a 20 yard radius (Chaos Blast). In Sonic the Hedgehog (2006 video game) the Chaos Emeralds show the power to travel through time and to shoot bullet like energy beams (Chaos Lance).

There are various versions of the Chaos Emeralds in different media. In the back-story for Sonic's world featured in most European tie-in publications such as Sonic the Comic, the Chaos Emeralds have the property of absorbing "evil energy", and play a role in the origin of Dr Robotnik. In Sonic Rush, the Sol Emeralds from Blaze the Cat's alternate dimension perform a similar function to the Chaos Emeralds of other games. In Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog, there are four Chaos Emeralds of varying shapes, representing invisibility, invincibility, immortality and the power of life. Chaos Emeralds also appear in Sonic Underground, with an appearance similar to the Master Emerald shards of Sonic Adventure.

Each Chaos Emeralds has a distinct colour, although the exact hues used vary between the games; usually the seven emeralds are red, blue, yellow, green, white, sky blue and purple. The Sol emeralds from Sonic Rush also come in these colors.

Wiki's not a good source, but this did mention that they got this information from the official source

 

[BSP]

There may not be any written explanation that means it is a game mechanic , but that is still very well part of the game. So are the other things i brought upIf I were to allow infinite super sonic now, then there will be many other people bringing up things that aren't "explained" and telling me to allow this and that. And trust me. There are a lot.



Wiki's not a good source, but this did mention that they got this information from the official source

Ok, but that doesn't talk about the ring matter at hand.

So are you saying that SS's ring limit isn't ignored just because it is part of the game? (like mario recovering from re surfacing, link invincibility) So we are ignoring some game mechs but not others now?

I think you have this twisted around, i could be wrong, but here me out. By applying SS's ring limit, you are applying an unexplained game mech, and therefore, you give the people that will argue for un-explained game mechs, an actual arguement. By not applying it and classifying the ring limit as a game mech that shouldn't be counted, you take away their arguement since all the unexplaned game mechs are not applied.

The ring limit is a game mech, not a true limit. Taking out game mechs does not give people arguements.

And btw, you didnt respond to the rest of my post.

 

[Kewkky]

Ok, but that doesn't talk about the ring matter at hand.

So are you saying that SS's ring limit isn't ignored just because it is part of the game? (like mario recovering from re surfacing, link invincibility) So we are ignoring some game mechs but not others now?

I think you have this twisted around, i could be wrong, but here me out. By applying SS's ring limit, you are applying an unexplained game mech, and therefore, you give the people that will argue for un-explained game mechs, an actual arguement. By not applying it and classifying the ring limit as a game mech that shouldn't be counted, you take away their arguement since all the unexplaned game mechs are not applied.

Ok, let's see what i can come up with...

Super Sonic's "rings" can be seen as a way to measure the time you have left in Super/Hyper mode. The fact that it's "rings" are all design: it could very well be tiny watches if they decided it to be back when they created Sonic. The fact you can collect "rings" in the games to maintain your form is so you don't run out of time (in the early Sonic games), or so that you can defeat the boss (in the recent Sonic games). I could very well argue that Sonic Unleashed's no-ring-limit is a game mechanic used to satisfy the story's needs... In fact, during Sonic Adventure 2 (and SA2B), in the fight against Final Hazard, both Super Sonic & Shadow say MID-GAME that they need to look for rings in order to maintain their forms, and you immediately switch to the other character. If in-game, the characters state that they need the rings to maintain their forms, yet in Sonic Unleashed they say nothing about the infinite time limit, then I would argue that the Super and Hyper forms are, indeed, limited.

In some games (like Sonic Advance) Super Sonic is seen returning to the planet 3 days later (I think?) as Super Sonic, but due to the nature of the game having rings floating around in mid-air and even the most random places (underwater sea caves? who puts rings THERE?), I wouldn't doubt that there were rings in space (which in SA2 and SA2B is shown to be true when in Meteor Herd and Rouge's place), and in the atmosphere (in SA2 and SA2B, both Sonic and Shadow "look for rings" mid-fight against Final Hazard while entering the atmosphere... I wouldn't doubt this being true, and I could also argue that there are rings in the atmosphere).

"Rings" are used to measure the time spent while Super or Shadow, and they're also used as Sonic's life gauge in all his games. They are a game mechanic, but when in Super form in the ecent games (minus Unleashed), it seems that they start out with 50 rings (50 seconds). So how can we TRULY measure this? Will we use an arbitrary "infinite ring limit" seen in a game with no explanation as to why it's infinite, or will we use the concrete "non-infinite ring limit" seen in the games, as well as spoken about by the characters transformed in their Super forms? If rings TRULY are a game mechanic, then now the time limit is 50 seconds and Sonic cannot collect any more, therefore he stays 50 seconds (or whatever the highest starting number when Sonic transforms into Super Sonic has been) then transforms back... But then, Sonic will also die in 1 hit, due to rings also being the measurement of his life gauge.


If it were up to me, I'd allow 50 rings for the highest time count allowed for a starting Super Sonic in the battles of this thread, as well as give Sonic 2 hits (removing rings the first hit, then the 2nd hit being the finishing hit [unless Sonic has had another life gauge in his games before, then he can use that other one]) before he dies.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Ok, but that doesn't talk about the ring matter at hand.

So are you saying that SS's ring limit isn't ignored just because it is part of the game? (like mario recovering from re surfacing, link invincibility) So we are ignoring some game mechs but not others now?

I think you have this twisted around, i could be wrong, but here me out. By applying SS's ring limit, you are applying an unexplained game mech, and therefore, you give the people that will argue for un-explained game mechs, an actual arguement. By not applying it and classifying the ring limit as a game mech that shouldn't be counted, you take away their arguement since all the unexplaned game mechs are not applied.

The ring limit is a game mech, not a true limit. Taking out game mechs does not give people arguements.

And btw, you didnt respond to the rest of my post.

Sonic collects rings in his games, and these rings have to run out when he's in super sonic form. There's really nothing I can do about that. There are plenty of other characters in the same position as Sonic too.

 

[BSP]

Ok, let's see what i can come up with...

Super Sonic's "rings" can be seen as a way to measure the time you have left in Super/Hyper mode. The fact that it's "rings" are all design: it could very well be tiny watches if they decided it to be back when they created Sonic. The fact you can collect "rings" in the games to maintain your form is so you don't run out of time (in the early Sonic games), or so that you can defeat the boss (in the recent Sonic games). I could very well argue that Sonic Unleashed's no-ring-limit is a game mechanic used to satisfy the story's needs... In fact, during Sonic Adventure 2 (and SA2B), in the fight against Final Hazard, both Super Sonic & Shadow say MID-GAME that they need to look for rings in order to maintain their forms, and you immediately switch to the other character. They dont say why, but you're rightIf in-game, the characters state that they need the rings to maintain their forms, yet in Sonic Unleashed they say nothing about the infinite time limit, then I would argue that the Super and Hyper forms are, indeed, limited.

In some games (like Sonic Advance) Super Sonic is seen returning to the planet 3 days later (I think?) as Super Sonic, but due to the nature of the game having rings floating around in mid-air and even the most random places (underwater sea caves? who puts rings THERE?), I wouldn't doubt that there were rings in space (which in SA2 and SA2B is shown to be true when in Meteor Herd and Rouge's place), and in the atmosphere (in SA2 and SA2B, both Sonic and Shadow "look for rings" mid-fight against Final Hazard while entering the atmosphere... I wouldn't doubt this being true, and I could also argue that there are rings in the atmosphere).

"Rings" are used to measure the time spent while Super or Shadow, and they're also used as Sonic's life gauge in all his games. They are a game mechanic, but when in Super form in the ecent games (minus Unleashed), it seems that they start out with 50 rings (50 seconds). So how can we TRULY measure this? Will we use an arbitrary "infinite ring limit" seen in a game with no explanation as to why it's infinite, or will we use the concrete "non-infinite ring limit" seen in the games, as well as spoken about by the characters transformed in their Super forms? If rings TRULY are a game mechanic, then now the time limit is 50 seconds and Sonic cannot collect any more, therefore he stays 50 seconds (or whatever the highest starting number when Sonic transforms into Super Sonic has been) then transforms back... But then, Sonic will also die in 1 hit, due to rings also being the measurement of his life gauge.


If it were up to me, I'd allow 50 rings for the highest time count allowed for a starting Super Sonic in the battles of this thread, as well as give Sonic 2 hits (removing rings the first hit, then the 2nd hit being the finishing hit [unless Sonic has had another life gauge in his games before, then he can use that other one]) before he dies.

Good post Kewkky, you have some irrefutable proof, so that's good enough for me. Sonic does say that he needs rings, still unexplained, but he says it, so i guess it's legit. But, the 50 ring highest count is BS, because the characters come to these battles fully prepared, as in, filled pockets, or whatever. We are going true to their games, so 999 is not sonic's ring max. It may have only been changed in unleashed, but, unlike Super sonic, it has no character saying you can only collect 999, only games. (good luck explaning why sonic could only hold 999, and the characters dont say anything about ring max either) I say we keep it as undefined, but my opinion may not matter anyway. Sonic doesnt lose all rings in one hit btw. he loses quite a bit, but not all. the 2 hit death isnt too believable either (but he will most likely become super sonic for most of these fights)

But, what's stopping Sonic from collecting the rings out in space, or wherever? Or are we totally away from any resources? (though with chaos control, sonic can warp to anywhere, or warp rings to the battlefield)

Sonic collects rings in his games, and these rings have to run out when he's in super sonic form. There's really nothing I can do about that. There are plenty of other characters in the same position as Sonic too.

Well, ok then. Your rules, plus kewkky picked out where they said they had to collect rings, so that's good enough for me too.

But still, I don't see how meta vs. Sonic is a draw. Sonic has 2 hours and 46 minutes as super sonic (if we dont allow ring collecting), and time stopping.

Just wondering, can danger mario be used in this thread?

 

[missingnomaster]

With no limit defined, I think the best we can do is give Sonic the highest amount of rings we've seen him to have.

Which I think is currently 1104.

 

[BSP]

With no limit defined, I think the best we can do is give Sonic the highest amount of rings we've seen him to have.

Which I think is currently 1104.

Is unleashed's 5 seconds for one ring engine still valid?

 

[justaway12]

brouser, haven't you played games with time limits? Anyway, not important right now.

@lastest response: I think it is, since it's the characters highest potential.

 

[BSP]

brouser, haven't you played games with time limits? Anyway, not important right now.

@lastest response: I think it is, since it's the characters highest potential.

Ok, ill do the math (but someone should check me lol)

im sorry, it's 10 seconds for one ring, not 5

Allright, sonic's got 3.067 hours of Super/Hyper Sonic.

But what about the collecting rings thing? There are no rings on the battlefield, but what's stopping sonic from warping to any of his levels to get some more? and he has plenty of time to do it. It wouldn't make him infinite though, but it would give him a lot more time as super sonic.

 

[Kewkky]

But, the 50 ring highest count is BS, because the characters come to these battles fully prepared, as in, filled pockets, or whatever. We are going true to their games, so 999 is not sonic's ring max. It may have only been changed in unleashed, but, unlike Super sonic, it has no character saying you can only collect 999, only games. (good luck explaning why sonic could only hold 999) I say we keep it as undefined, but my opinion may not matter anyway. Sonic doesnt lose all rings in one hit btw. he loses quite a bit, but not all. the 2 hit death isnt too believable either (but he will most likely become super sonic for most of these fights)

Nope, they don't go fully prepared. Using SA2B as an example (which also has a 999 ring limit), both Sonic and Shadow start their Final Hazard fight with 50 rings each. Why not start with 999, if they can fill their pockets beforehand? And what about Sonic Advance: there is still the same 999 ring max, yet he doesn't start the Moon battle with 999 rings... Also, I'd like to point to this part of my post:

If rings TRULY are a game mechanic, then now the time limit is 50 seconds and Sonic cannot collect any more, therefore he stays 50 seconds (or whatever the highest starting number when Sonic transforms into Super Sonic has been) then transforms back... But then, Sonic will also die in 1 hit, due to rings also being the measurement of his life gauge.

****I'm not limiting Sonic to 500 seconds, but if there's no other maximum starting ring-count, then Sonic will be forced to start the fights as Super Sonic with a 500 second time limit (which, considering his supersonic speed and power, should be enough to end a match if possible to win as Super Sonic anyway). If you want him to have some more time, you've gotta find some other game where Super Sonic stats out with a higher ring count.

But, what's stopping Sonic from collecting the rings out in space, or wherever? Or are we totally away from any resources? (though with chaos control, sonic can warp to anywhere, or warp rings to the battlefield)

Well, it's supposed to be a neutral battlefield, no nothing except floor... But, there COULD be rings there for his game's sake (since there were rings everywhere for no apparent reason, even in the most desolate places) whenever Sonic's matches started.


****I took too long making this reply, got triple ninja'd. Heh. Changed 50 seconds for 500 seconds due to being 10 secs per ring.

 

[BSP]

Nope, they don't go fully prepared. Using SA2B as an example (which also has a 999 ring limit), both Sonic and Shadow start their Final Hazard fight with 50 rings each. Why not start with 999, if they can fill their pockets beforehand? And what about Sonic Advance: there is still the same 999 ring max, yet he doesn't start the Moon battle with 999 rings... Also, I'd like to point to this part of my post:

Wait, I meant the fights in this thread, not the game fights. (Sonic isn't starting these fights as SS btw) If sonic gets limited like that, shouldn't samus only start the battle with the ammunition she has left over from the final battle? And shouldn't the mario-verse have to start their battles with what they have after deafeating the final boss?

I'm not limiting Sonic to 50 seconds, but if there's no other maximum starting ring-count, then Sonic will be forced to start the fights as Super Sonic with a 50 second time limit (which, considering his supersonic speed and power, should be enough to end a match if possible to win as Super Sonic anyway). If you want him to have some more time, you've gotta find some other game where Super Sonic stats out with a higher ring count.

Well, ok, i can't. But true to normal sonic, he can get his max amount of rings ( 1104 at the time) before the battle, and then transform to Super/Hyper, which, true to Sonic 2, and 3, uses the rings he has before he transforms.

Well, it's supposed to be a neutral battlefield, no nothing except floor... But, there COULD be rings there for his game's sake (since there were rings everywhere for no apparent reason, even in the most desolate places) whenever Sonic's matches started.

Well, I didn't hear a no, and Sonic has the means to get to anywhere. The reason I brought this up was because the MK vs. Sonic matchup is a draw, because once sonic times out, MK might be able to beat him. There's no way MK can stall for.....well, it's a long time, but SS still isnt infinite.

So Raizen, why dont you put something like :

Fully prepared, Sonic can maintain his super form for 3.067 hours. However, since he can use chaos control to warp anywhere, he can collect more. This increases his time by a large margin, but if a character was is able to stall SS for 3 hours (like kirby maybe) the additional time won't matter.

But MK on the other hand.....

 

[Kewkky]

Wait, I meant the fights in this thread, not the game fights. (Sonic isn't starting these fights as SS btw) If sonic gets limited like that, shouldn't samus only start the battle with the ammunition she has left over from the final battle? And shouldn't the mario-verse have to start their battles with what they have after deafeating the final boss?

Yeah, I always had that small irritation, that people could start these matches with their pockets full (I see what you're saying now, I misunderstood).

Every time Samus ends a game, she keeps her powers (except in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, but it's only the armor that she dumps, and it's because it's Luminoth technology and she leaves the Luminoth world, which powers the suits). But then in the next games, she loses them by some weird turn of events... I dunno about Mario, though, but in the Paper Mario's endings where he is able to keep playing after beating the final bosses, he keeps all his items and badges, as well as his ability to walk into shops... But what I meant by the final boss fights, is that whenever Super Sonic starts in a fight, he has 50 rings.

Thanks to the earliest Sonic games though, you could just start as Sonic, then turn into Super Sonic by jumping and whatever else he needs to do... But you run the risk of getting OHKO'd by lightning fast KO options (like Samus's light-speed Imperialist).

 

[PowerBomb]

Yeah, but who knows if the Lumineth own the Dark Suit? Actually, someone might know. I don't. I know Samus keeps most, if not all beam weapons obtained on each game. And most power-ups. The only ones she doesn't usually keep are certain Suit power-ups.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Fully prepared, Sonic can maintain his super form for 3.067 hours. However, since he can use chaos control to warp anywhere, he can collect more. This increases his time by a large margin, but if a character was is able to stall SS for 3 hours (like kirby maybe) the additional time won't matter.

Warping out of the neutral zoned map isn't allowed. I'll put the first part up in a bit.

Match-up: Ike wins/New MU soon.

 

[REL38]

Yeah, but who knows if the Lumineth own the Dark Suit? Actually, someone might know. I don't. I know Samus keeps most, if not all beam weapons obtained on each game. And most power-ups. The only ones she doesn't usually keep are certain Suit power-ups.

The Light Suit stacks on top of the Dark Suit which I'm pretty sure Samus keeps it.

@Mariobrouser

Wait, how is Sonic replenishing his Ring Count?

 

[missingnomaster]

Warping out of the neutral zoned map isn't allowed. I'll put the first part up in a bit.

Match-up: Ike wins/New MU soon.

A couple questions about that:

Can a character force another character into an area outside of the map (example: Ganondorf has the ability to banish someone to the space between dimensions)

Can a character hide temporarily by going into another dimension? (Ganondorf could use twilight portals for mindgames and evasive maneuvers)

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Vs.

Current Match-Up:
THE WARRIOR Vs. THE CHOSEN ONE

Marth Vs. Link

Vs.

Round 4, Match 9.

Who will win? YOU decide!

Overall Results

Wins +4:

, ,

Wins +3:

, ,

Wins +2:

:mewtwo:,

Wins +1:

, , , , ,

Neutral:

, , , , , , , , , , ,

Loss -1:

, ,

Loss -2:

, , , , ichu:, ,

Loss -3:

,

Loss -4:

,

 

[Kewkky]

Geez, I'm almost convinced Ganondorf will beat Samus. Everytime I read some Ganondorf posts, he has some new crazy power (banishing people to other dimensions? Which game is this? O_O).

 

[missingnomaster]

Wow, this will be interesting (as long as someone doesn't start bringing up Galekill's points, in which case it will only be annoying)

I think Link has the strength advantage, while Marth is much more agile. Though Link has several ranged attacks.


In OoT, when you defeat Phantom Ganon, Ganondorf speaks to you and says that he banishes Phantom Ganon to the space between dimensions.
I don't think it would be very practical though.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The match-ups will start to get a lot more interesting now. I could see Ganon Vs. Bowser, Samus Vs. Ike, Ness Vs. Mario, Mewtwo Vs. Sonic, and a mixture of those all coming up.

@Kewkky: Ganon can also go inside his enemies and control them. Pretty broken, eh? He'd win all his matches even without invulnerability.

 

[Kewkky]

@Kewkky: Ganon can also go inside his enemies and control them. Pretty broken, eh? He'd win all his matches even without invulnerability.

Lucky for me, Samus can't be possessed. The Ing try to possess her for example, and just end up leaving her body since it doesn't work.

 

[missingnomaster]

Lucky for me, Samus can't be possessed. The Ing try to possess her for example, and just end up leaving her body since it doesn't work.

Though the entire argument for Samus having a chance at beating Ganondorf is based on the idea that Light Beam is evil repelling.

Why should the Light Beam be better than the Light Arrows, which have only ever stunned Ganondorf?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Well, that was just one thing I was pointing out. I'm really looking forward with debating Samus Vs. Ganon with you guys once it comes up, especially Dryn. Samus Vs. Ganon will most likely be the final battle. Unless Ike could squeeze himself there.

 

[missingnomaster]

I'm sure Dryn will be really disappointed if he misses out on that matchup...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

There are plenty of other match-ups to go, so I'm quite sure he won't.

 

[GenoGar]

I'm confused... Ragnell is blessed by Ashera... but it gets re-blessed by Yune so that it may hurt enemies whose armor were blessed by Ashera...

So really... even if you take/steal Ragnell... it won't work since you need opposite blessing to do damage.

-

And Ike is pretty much a super human with godlike strength, speed, and is pretty much an indestructible tank of a man. Even if a building fell on him he would live since canonically a similar event occurred with a certain person with blessed armor and he lived.

I'm not sure if Psychic attacks would damage Ike either since magical Tomes must be blessed in order to do damage. I'm guessing Ashera's magic or Tomes blessed by Ashera is the only type of "indirect" attack that can hurt Ike.

Basically anything Sonic throws at Ike will do NOTHING. Ike on the otherhand can nullify any sort of defense with Aether (as well as heal himself...). If we take Murphy's Law into account... Sonic will get hit... eventually...

The problem here is if invincibility trumps nullifiers or if nullifiers trump invincibility.

But LOL the Black Knight can OHKO Ashera (the god) if he activates Eclispe (Aether counter part). If the Black Knight can take out a god, I'm going to assume Ike can as well... (well... he does...)

The thing is... anything involving MAGIC is pure BS because there's no logical way of explaining it. Ike could get sniped in the face by Snake but it technically won't kill him since in Fire Emblem, it would register as a meer scratch on the paint... (no forget that... it wouldn't even do a single FRECKLE of damage to the paint.) Ike isn't immortal, but he can probably have a piknic on the battle field while an army of 20 archers rain arrows on him... and still be undamaged.

I haven't played any Sonic games recently but I'm assuming you can lose as Super Sonic. What exactly happens? Can you DIE as Super Sonic in his games? If he can DIE, then all this Sonic can't die is pretty much BS. If he can't then... LOL he's as broken as Ike. (How the hell do you lose the final level of a Sonic game then???)

-

In conclusion, if the fight is a stand still... if the character facing Ike can live 80 years without taking damage from Ike... I'll consider it a win LOL.

-

And for the rest of the roster... it's pretty much Ganondorf, Bowser, Sonic, and Ike dominating.

Ganondorf: He can fly, truly invincible because of the Triforce of Power, and he can BEND THE MINDS OF HIS ENEMIES. He basically only has 2 bad match ups with Link and Toon Link... and even then it's an even match up.

Bowser: Star Rod BS makes him untouchable... and he's like the size of a football stadium. He can "chase" anyone with a flying ship.

Sonic: Super Sonic is instant win apparantly.

Ike: Blessed Armor seems to beat bullets to the face.

I'm surprised that Mario and Luigi aren't dominating because of their Starman hax. I mean... even Metal Mario can't die.

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol ike already beat sonic i just brought it up because the reason was sonic can't hurt ike and the only way he could bring about a draw was if he stole ike's weapon but ike has more than 1 so it was an ike victory. I thought the reason should be that ike can hurt sonic though and sonic can't hurt ike, either with aether or by being a chaos entity.

woah back up a second.

Why is it that super sonic, whose energy is capable of bending time, the fabric of reality itself incapable of harming Ike?
A being whose power is EQUAL to the god of chaos (Sonic adventure 1, yes Chaos IS a god) is incapable of defeating a mortal?
Let alone last I saw, Ike only has ONE ragnell and I dont believe his other weapons are enchanted the same way.

Hat to ruin things in between matchups but I have not been around and this made me go "!"