Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[justaway12]

To be fair, we never did that "he doesn't know" thing, why should we change it now? It's always been that "oh he has this and he has this so he can defend from this, even though he has never seen it before."

We always just assumed they both know what they are getting into or else it'll just be that type of match where it's like, nobody knows what to do next.

 

[missingnomaster]

With 3 hours time, I'm pretty sure Metaknight would be caught vulnerable sooner or later.

 

[BSP]

To be fair, we never did that "he doesn't know" thing, why should we change it now? It's always been that "oh he has this and he has this so he can defend from this, even though he has never seen it before."

We always just assumed they both know what they are getting into or else it'll just be that type of match where it's like, nobody knows what to do next.

yeah, you're right. I probably shouldn't have brought that up.

My question still stands, is Dimmensional cape infinite? All it takes is a second of screw up, and meta is stuck in time for SS to finish. SS has three hours, so MK has to perfectly run away for three hours to avoid losing...can he do that with SS's speed and time stops?

 

[Kewkky]

Don't worry about it, missingno. Reply however you want, as long as I can read what you reply to, I'm fine.

I hate to be the antagonist here, but what bad guys were shown to survive?

Werent there some Pig Masks around? And wasn't Pokey inside his capsule thing? I might be remembering wrong, though. Still, it's not in Lucas's conscience to kill, as seen in the game while the storyline develops (all the enemies that can talk and can reason in the game end up 'becoming tame' and not dying. The robots and chimeras, on the other hand, don't).

How would that be different from Ganondorf's invulnerability then?

Well, medieval or not, if a building falls on you or you get stabbed in the face, you're pretty much done for. And Ganondorf keeps coming back after receiving a beating (even by the Master Sword and Light Arrows, so not even those can completely stop him).

How exactly could Kirby put someone in space with the Warpstar?

Fly to Ike at high speeds, inhale, fly out to space, exhale. Victory! Ike was never harmed in the making of this movie.

Well, good luck with that. If you think Ganondorf is going to succumb to mundane assault, then you haven't seen in TP where he pulls a sacred sword out of his chest while laughing, after he suddenly receives the Triforce of Power.

No, I mean "find a way to bring him into submission" as in "find a way to put Ganon in a position where he can't do anything but live". In the LoZ games, he is banished, turned to stone, and who knows what else (in the end he somehow comes back, but this is still defeating him). So, if they can send Ganondorf into a similar position where he can't do anything but wait for the next installment of "If smash characters were true to their games", then it's pretty much over for Ganon.

The difference is that in OoT Ganondorf had the ToP, but in WW, he didn't at the final battle.

Ah, okay, well that answers my question.

I don't really see the logic behind that statement, but don't have anything to say against it right now.

Well, whenever Ganon gets shot with a light arrow, he eventually shugs the hit off and goes back to being his normal ****** self. Unless a character can find a way to take advantage of his stun to "banish" him (or bring him into submission), it's still a loss for that guy, since Ganon will eventually be able to move again and kick the guy's ***.

I'm against this based on the way the thread works, because characters are allowed to come to the match fully prepared already.

But characters who can come fully prepared to battles/stages in their own games have a way of prepaing themselves before battles/stages (shops, banks, item collecting...)... Sonic doesn't have one of these. Whenever he appears in his next stage/boss fight, he has 0 rings unless he's Super Sonic, and there's no way you can start a stage, no way at all, with any amount of rings (unless the newer Sonic games aren't like this, then I'm wrong here). Since this is "If smash characters were true to their games", then Sonic should be true to his game and start out with either 0 rings, or as Super Sonic with 50 rings. We're just being nice and allowing Sonic to carry 1104 rings to make it so that he has a fighting chance. Mixing both (Super Sonic and 1104 ring limit) would be against his games, as well as against Super Sonic's appearance when stages/battles start (he has 50 rings)... So, either Sonic starts as Super Sonic with 50 rings, or for the handicapped approach, he starts as normal Sonic with 1104 rings and the ability to jump and turn to Super Sonic in mid-air (like in his earliest games), but runs the risk of getting OHKO'd by lightning-fast OHKO;ing attacks like Samus's imperialist.

 

[justaway12]

My question still stands, is Dimmensional cape infinite? All it takes is a second of screw up, and meta is stuck in time for SS to finish. SS has three hours, so MK has to perfectly run away for three hours to avoid losing...can he do that with SS's speed and time stops?

It think the best person to ask would be ★Viper

 

[ShadowLink84]

-

And LOL you can't throw Ike into space. You know how much he weighs? They don't call him a human tank for nothing. Besides, how the hell you gonna actually grab him. He'll just blast your face off if you get too close.

Should the "controlled" setting that everyone fights in have a ceiling? I'm pretty sure you can kill almost anyone by just throwing them into space. But I'm guessing Mario defies the laws of space in Mario Galaxy.

Ugh Sonic and Mario defy space. Don't know how they just do.
As for throwing Ike, thre is no need. Sonic is stupidly fast evenin his regular form so it isn't an issue at all for him to simply rush up to Ike and warp him into the sun, or space.


The isseue though is that your argument is that Ike's "universe" state him as incapable of harm, while Sonic's would allow him to bypass that by tearing apart reality and space.

So its like the perfect sword vs the perfect shield. Ike really has no hope of hitting Sonic either

 

[BSP]

Kewkky, Sonic can teleport too. He won't stand still and let you hit him while he transforms (less than a second btw). He starts all of his matches as normal sonic, and if the opponent can hit him in less than a second (maybe samus only?), he runs/warps away, transforms, then warps back.

@ ShadowLink

I never thought about that, but I thought Raizen said warping out of the nuetral battlefield isn't allowed. I'm starting to think it should be allowed, so characters that have abilities like warping can use them to their fullest potential (not to allow stalling though). I don't know how mario can get ike to space or anywhere though.

@ Justaway

Well if anyone sees Viper, we should ask.

 

[PowerBomb]

I don't even think Samus has that great reflexes. The Imperialist obviously can go faster than he can, but does Samus have enough reflex speed to hit Sonic?

I could use Serris as an argument, but it probably is null.

EDIT: @ Current MU:

It's hard to say. I mean, Link can use most of his items to a great extent here, but Marth can counter and use various orbs and stuff. Although, some orbs are off-limits due to them being needed to make Falcion (or however you spell it).

 

[Kewkky]

I don't even think Samus has that great reflexes. The Imperialist obviously can go faster than he can, but does Samus have enough reflex speed to hit Sonic?

Samus has been trained by the Chozo, as well as infused with Chozo technology and DNA. She's been said to be superhuman/superathlete, so it wouldn't surprise me. Normal human reflexes would be 1/6th of a second (10 frames in the Brawlese language), so a super human would be faster than that... And I think that a fast reflex, plus lifting an arm and shooting a lightspeed projectile that kills in one hit, is definitely less than a second... WAY less than a second.

 

[missingnomaster]

yeah, you're right. I probably shouldn't have brought that up.

My question still stands, is Dimmensional cape infinite? All it takes is a second of screw up, and meta is stuck in time for SS to finish. SS has three hours, so MK has to perfectly run away for three hours to avoid losing...can he do that with SS's speed and time stops?

Sorry, but this post made me laugh. I believe that's one of the first times a tactic straight out of SSBB, even with the same principles for success, was applied to a matchup here.

Don't worry about it, missingno. Reply however you want, as long as I can read what you reply to, I'm fine.

Werent there some Pig Masks around? And wasn't Pokey inside his capsule thing? I might be remembering wrong, though. Still, it's not in Lucas's conscience to kill, as seen in the game while the storyline develops (all the enemies that can talk and can reason in the game end up 'becoming tame' and not dying. The robots and chimeras, on the other hand, don't).I don't recall any of them talking like Pig Masks, but you couldn't see them anyway. Pokey is supposed to be "absolutely safe",but the recreation of the world by a seemingly omnipotent force is a bit different from normal assault...

Well, medieval or not, if a building falls on you or you get stabbed in the face, you're pretty much done for. And Ganondorf keeps coming back after receiving a beating (even by the Master Sword and Light Arrows, so not even those can completely stop him).
I don't think Ganon should be coming back here. If he's defeated, the match is over. It usually takes a long time for him to come back anyway.
Fly to Ike at high speeds, inhale, fly out to space, exhale. Victory! Ike was never harmed in the making of this movie. I don't think Kirby could even inhale a foe as large as Ike. I guess that could actually work though, but I can't help but feel there's some sort of problem with it...

No, I mean "find a way to bring him into submission" as in "find a way to put Ganon in a position where he can't do anything but live". In the LoZ games, he is banished, turned to stone, and who knows what else (in the end he somehow comes back, but this is still defeating him). So, if they can send Ganondorf into a similar position where he can't do anything but wait for the next installment of "If smash characters were true to their games", then it's pretty much over for Ganon. That seems like it would be nearly impossible to do anyway.

Ah, okay, well that answers my question.

Well, whenever Ganon gets shot with a light arrow, he eventually shugs the hit off and goes back to being his normal ****** self. Unless a character can find a way to take advantage of his stun to "banish" him (or bring him into submission), it's still a loss for that guy, since Ganon will eventually be able to move again and kick the guy's ***. I meant I don't see why all light weaponry and magic should be treated like the Light Arrow, but after thinking about it, I'm not sure there would be any other comparison.

But characters who can come fully prepared to battles/stages in their own games have a way of prepaing themselves before battles/stages (shops, banks, item collecting...)... Sonic doesn't have one of these. Whenever he appears in his next stage/boss fight, he has 0 rings unless he's Super Sonic, and there's no way you can start a stage, no way at all, with any amount of rings (unless the newer Sonic games aren't like this, then I'm wrong here). Since this is "If smash characters were true to their games", then Sonic should be true to his game and start out with either 0 rings, or as Super Sonic with 50 rings. We're just being nice and allowing Sonic to carry 1104 rings to make it so that he has a fighting chance. Mixing both (Super Sonic and 1104 ring limit) would be against his games, as well as against Super Sonic's appearance when stages/battles start (he has 50 rings)... So, either Sonic starts as Super Sonic with 50 rings, or for the handicapped approach, he starts as normal Sonic with 1104 rings and the ability to jump and turn to Super Sonic in mid-air (like in his earliest games), but runs the risk of getting OHKO'd by lightning-fast OHKO;ing attacks like Samus's imperialist.

To be fair, Sonic losing rings at the start of each level is shockingly similar to Samus losing equipment for no reason in between games...

 

[BSP]

Samus has been trained by the Chozo, as well as infused with Chozo technology and DNA. She's been said to be superhuman/superathlete, so it wouldn't surprise me. Normal human reflexes would be 1/6th of a second (10 frames in the Brawlese language), so a super human would be faster than that... And I think that a fast reflex, plus lifting an arm and shooting a lightspeed projectile that kills in one hit, is definitely less than a second... WAY less than a second.

So can't samus beat everybody in a second if she can hit sonic before he can react?

Sorry, but this post made me laugh. I believe that's one of the first times a tactic straight out of SSBB, even with the same principles for success, was applied to a matchup here.

To be fair, Sonic losing rings at the start of each level is shockingly similar to Samus losing equipment for no reason in between games...

So the dimmensional cape from brawl works exactly the same as the one from MK's games? I thought we didnt consider brawl canon here.

 

[warpd]

I thought Ike's armor and weapons where blessed not himself specifically or did I miss that plot point? Even if space doesn't kill Ike it would prevent him from fighting.

 

[randyman400]

Regarding Ike, I don't remember anything about him being magically protected against regular weapons. Could someone tell me when this happened exactly?

 

[missingnomaster]

So can't samus beat everybody in a second if she can hit sonic before he can react?



So the dimmensional cape from brawl works exactly the same as the one from MK's games? I thought we didnt consider brawl canon here.

I meant that you way you worded the post made it look like the way Metaknight would be using the Dimensional Cape would be the same way that it is used for the Infinite Dimensional Cape glitch in Brawl.

Nothing serious intended, just some humor.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

@Mario: I'm not sure if I should allow 'space' here.

I'm not against it, just not sure.

 

[Samochan]

I thought Ike's armor and weapons where blessed not himself specifically or did I miss that plot point? Even if space doesn't kill Ike it would prevent him from fighting.

Well this would be serious fact.

Someone give us game script asap.

 

[warpd]

Make a big enough hole and Ike can't get out. Like those traps you'll find occasionally in his game.

 

[Kewkky]

To be fair, Sonic losing rings at the start of each level is shockingly similar to Samus losing equipment for no reason in between games...

Yes, Samus loses her equipment in the next game, but she gets it back during said game, and more (newer equipment and powers). Plus, she keeps her equipment when moving from planet to planet, destination to destination... Sonic loses all of his rings as soon as he finishes a level and starts another one, he doesn't have the ability to stock up on things before going to his next destination. Samus can in her games, though: just go kill some random enemies, stock up on missiles/health/power bombs/ammo, and you're ready for that next destination... The difference between both characters' losing-their-items thing? Samus keeps hers when she starts her next destination, loads a game, moves from planet to planet, while Sonic doesn't.

That seems like it would be nearly impossible to do anyway.

The point I was trying to make was that people shouldn't just give up when they see they gotta go up against Ganon. If they can somehow find a way to disable him, then they can win.

So can't samus beat everybody in a second if she can hit sonic before he can react?

Actually, she can't. people who can start invincible (like some Mario universe people, Ganondorf and Ike, as well as if you guys decide to start as Super Sonic) can't be harmed by her until their invincibility runs out. She has to find another way to beat them if she hopes to win... Which is why I said before that I'm really starting to doubt Samus could ever beat Ganon, since he'll always come back, and nothing that i can think off the top of my head at this moment could do anything to him.

 

[Samochan]

Wouldn't darkburst suck in ganondorf to random dimension rift, regardless if he's invincible or not? You can seal him to another dimension, he's not impervious to those things. =) He's not big enough to not get sucked in either.

Ganondorf doesn't get damaged by most attacks... but you can move him around (liek midna throwing him around in pig form). Wouldn't that mean Ice spreader could freeze him solid, even if he doesn't get damage then? And attacks with destructive force to blast him away?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon can do the exact same thing to Samus.

 

[warpd]

In the case of Ganon the only way to beat him is to neutralize him since he can't be killed.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

and that would be considered stalling.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

New MU soon.

 

[warpd]

Does the opponent have to be killed for there to be a victory?

 

[BSP]

I meant that you way you worded the post made it look like the way Metaknight would be using the Dimensional Cape would be the same way that it is used for the Infinite Dimensional Cape glitch in Brawl.

Nothing serious intended, just some humor.

Hard to detect humor over the internet sometimes, or im just stiff as a board

@Mario: I'm not sure if I should allow 'space' here.

I'm not against it, just not sure.

ok, tell us when you make a decision

 

[missingnomaster]

Wouldn't darkburst suck in ganondorf to random dimension rift, regardless if he's invincible or not? You can seal him to another dimension, he's not impervious to those things. =) He's not big enough to not get sucked in either.

Ganondorf doesn't get damaged by most attacks... but you can move him around (liek midna throwing him around in pig form). Wouldn't that mean Ice spreader could freeze him solid, even if he doesn't get damage then? And attacks with destructive force to blast him away?

I recall from the previous thread that the argument against that was that he could use Twilight Portals to escape since DarkBurst essentially sends foes to another dimension, but I'm sure if that would really work or not...

Yes, Samus loses her equipment in the next game, but she gets it back during said game, and more (newer equipment and powers). Plus, she keeps her equipment when moving from planet to planet, destination to destination... Sonic loses all of his rings as soon as he finishes a level and starts another one, he doesn't have the ability to stock up on things before going to his next destination. Samus can in her games, though: just go kill some random enemies, stock up on missiles/health/power bombs/ammo, and you're ready for that next destination... The difference between both characters' losing-their-items thing? Samus keeps hers when she starts her next destination, loads a game, moves from planet to planet, while Sonic doesn't.


The point I was trying to make was that people shouldn't just give up when they see they gotta go up against Ganon. If they can somehow find a way to disable him, then they can win.

But the fact remains the same that Samus loses her equipment from game to game and Sonic loses rings from stage to stage based on game mechanics. Why should Sonic lose his rings? what would cause that to happen? He has no reason to get hit for no reason between stages, and even then one of the games gave him an item that prevents him from losing all of his rings when being hit.

Having hope against Ganon doesn't really make the fight any less one sided.

Raizen: How can there be a new matchup soon when there's been very little discussion on the current one? I think the only person who really gave a definite call was Incurable Necrophile.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Before I go on, everyone agrees that Link wins, right?

 

[Kewkky]

Well missingno, if you were to consider stuff like how Samus' weapons mysteriously disappear when she starts a game, then the Mario people's items would disappear as well, since whenever you start the next game, he has none of the items/badges/equipment he had in the previous games. Link would also suffer here, as well as any other character who earns equipment in each game. The difference between Sonic and all these characters, is that Sonic starts different levels in the same game with 0 rings, no matter how much you try to change that fact. It's part of his game to start stages and bosses with 0 rings, but it's not part of anyone else's game to start missions/chapters/whatever else with no items, only games.

If it were up to me, I'd handicap Sonic to start out his matches with 1104 rings for the sake of not making it one-sided or anything.


Yep, Raizen, Link wins. Link could use Nayru's love, then camp it out with his bow for example (or just run in with sword+shield). Marth has no answer to Links' Nayru's love.

 

[IsmaR]

I recall from the previous thread that the argument against that was that he could use Twilight Portals to escape since DarkBurst essentially sends foes to another dimension, but I'm sure if that would really work or not...

Ganondorf needed assistance, or for the seal to get weaker/older/time to pass/something to escape other dimensions. Shouldn't be any different here.

 

[BSP]

If it were up to me, I'd handicap Sonic to start out his matches with 1104 rings for the sake of not making it one-sided or anything

I thought we said we were doing this.

 

[missingnomaster]

Well missingno, if you were to consider stuff like how Samus' weapons mysteriously disappear when she starts a game, then the Mario people's items would disappear as well, since whenever you start the next game, he has none of the items/badges/equipment he had in the previous games. Link would also suffer here, as well as any other character who earns equipment in each game. The difference between Sonic and all these characters, is that Sonic starts different levels in the same game with 0 rings, no matter how much you try to change that fact. It's part of his game to start stages and bosses with 0 rings, but it's not part of anyone else's game to start missions/chapters/whatever else with no items, only games.

If it were up to me, I'd handicap Sonic to start out his matches with 1104 rings for the sake of not making it one-sided or anything.

But why should we allow Sonic's game mechanic when it is just as illogical? New game or not, there's still nothing explain why he has to lose his rings at the start of each level. I'm going to pretend you didn't make that final sentence, because it makes the entire argument about Sonic being limited to 50 rings completely irrelevant.

Ganondorf needed assistance, or for the seal to get weaker/older/time to pass/something to escape other dimensions. Shouldn't be any different here.

I'm not familiar with the LoZ timeline, but isn't TP one of the newer ones? None of the other games deal with Twilight, so it's quite possible that Ganondorf didn't learn how to use Twilight portals until TP. Though I don't quite remember how Ganondorf got out of Twilight in the first place after the sages trapped him there...

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Vs.

Current Match-Up:
THE PRINCESS Vs. THE PSYCHIC CHILD

Peach Vs. Ness

Vs.

Round 4, Match 10.

 

[Samochan]

Ganondorf needed assistance, or for the seal to get weaker/older/time to pass/something to escape other dimensions. Shouldn't be any different here.

Not forgetting Ganondorf had conquered the twilight dimension already and the twilight portals work by porting him to the twilight equivalent of that same world, but the normal and twilight world in zelda are much more connected than the battlefield and then a random rift in space. He used Zant to gain power again and things like that, then used him to escape twilight. He couldn't do so on his own. On OoT, he couldn't escape sacred realm on his own, neither on other games (I believe one was the oracle games).

The rift in space could send him anywhere, perhaps even non-existance for all we know. But essentially it would erase him from the battlefield and render him completely unable to fight or recover.

Basically samus could charge up light beam to stun him (well light arrows are magical... but light is still light <_<) and then switch weapons, charge up and shoot a darkburst at him. Someone did make a point that light beam should affect ganondorf, even though I opposed it, but I guess it's acceptable. <_>

 

[justaway12]

IDK much about Ness, but it would seem like he wins since he has the mind powers.

But we need an Earthbound guy.

 

[IsmaR]

I'm not familiar with the LoZ timeline, but isn't TP one of the newer ones? None of the other games deal with Twilight, so it's quite possible that Ganondorf didn't learn how to use Twilight portals until TP. Though I don't quite remember how Ganondorf got out of Twilight in the first place after the sages trapped him there...

Spoiler

Ganondorf used Zant, who was stuck in there too, to break himself by giving Zant his power.

Samochan pretty much said everything else. The Darkburst hurls things even in dark dimensions to another.

 

[Kewkky]

Guess I poorly worded that last statement. I mean that if it were to be a "true to their games" thing, Sonic would be forced to start out with 0 rings, because that's how his game works: he doesn't lose his rings (in the GBA versions of Sonic, as well as the Sonic Adventures, the rings that Sonic saves up after finishing stages are used as currency for the Chao World), he just starts with 0 rings. They don't magically disappear, they are still used. In the earliest Sonic games, the rings are all used up to increase your score when you end a stage. He doesn't lose them, they are used. So, Sonic starts his stages with 0 rings.

What I meant by the "handicap Sonic" was that, if it is proven to be true that Sonic would have to start his matches with no rings, and this thread would say that Sonic has to start the fight with 0 rings just like he starts the stages with 0 rings in his games, then we should still let him carry 1104 rings for the sake of these fights. It's already stated that he will start with 1104 rings, but if the general consensus agrees that it is true to Sonic's games to start stuff with 0 rings, we should still let him carry 1104 rings.

 

[missingnomaster]

Guess I poorly worded that last statement. I mean that if it were to be a "true to their games" thing, Sonic would be forced to start out with 0 rings, because that's how his game works: he doesn't lose his rings (in the GBA versions of Sonic, as well as the Sonic Adventures, the rings that Sonic saves up after finishing stages are used as currency for the Chao World), he just starts with 0 rings. They don't magically disappear, they are still used. In the earliest Sonic games, the rings are all used up to increase your score when you end a stage. He doesn't lose them, they are used. So, Sonic starts his stages with 0 rings.

What I meant by the "handicap Sonic" was that, if it is proven to be true that Sonic would have to start his matches with no rings, and this thread would say that Sonic has to start the fight with 0 rings just like he starts the stages with 0 rings in his games, then we should still let him carry 1104 rings for the sake of these fights. It's already stated that he will start with 1104 rings, but if the general consensus agrees that it is true to Sonic's games to start stuff with 0 rings, we should still let him carry 1104 rings.

If Sonic gets to start with 1104 rings either way, what's the point in arguing about it?

Not forgetting Ganondorf had conquered the twilight dimension already and the twilight portals work by porting him to the twilight equivalent of that same world, but the normal and twilight world in zelda are much more connected than the battlefield and then a random rift in space. He used Zant to gain power again and things like that, then used him to escape twilight. He couldn't do so on his own. On OoT, he couldn't escape sacred realm on his own, neither on other games (I believe one was the oracle games).

The rift in space could send him anywhere, perhaps even non-existance for all we know. But essentially it would erase him from the battlefield and render him completely unable to fight or recover.

Basically samus could charge up light beam to stun him (well light arrows are magical... but light is still light <_<) and then switch weapons, charge up and shoot a darkburst at him. Someone did make a point that light beam should affect ganondorf, even though I opposed it, but I guess it's acceptable. <_>

So, Samus may actually have the most dangerous weapon in the entire thread since it could even defeat foes who are completely invincible...

 

[Samochan]

Well, I believe rings should be out of the question because they are not collectable items Sonic can carry through stages, but items he needs to obtain from the stage itself. It's the exact same scenario as Mario's caps or Boo hat, for example. Or coins or healt... Sonic doesn't even have inventory and he must collect all rings throughout the stage, but never retains his rings. Heck, one contact with the enemy makes him lose each and every ring he carries. <_>

Super sonic with 50 rings is possible though. After that he loses super sonicness and is forced to fight as normal sonic.

Not quite missignomaster... ****ing bowser is too heavy and big to be sucked into darkburst. And even if it ohkos every enemy regardless (not bosses), I doubt it would do so against Bowser, esp not invulnerable one. But maybe it would suck his star rod from him. =D Or Samus could charge up and shoot before Bowser finishes invincibility (takes 8 seconds). Or she could use her grapple beam to steal it, she can grab missile recharges and healt from afar if you use grapple. This is only for recharges though, so it's only plausible theory. She can grab shields on the other hand, which are not recharges... D:

 

[justaway12]

Bowser uses Teleport.

 

[Kewkky]

If Sonic gets to start with 1104 rings either way, what's the point in arguing about it?

Knowledge, for knowledge's sake.