Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[HailCrest]

Just making sure, Metaknight wins cause Lucas has no way of reaching the Halberd, right?

What? What? That's a stupid reason. All characters who have vehicles automatically win against characters who have lackluster mobility just because they can't get on?

By the way, would Rope Snake count as an ally or an item? He's a key item in the game, but he's kind of alive so meh. Lucas can use that to get on the halberd.

 

[FrznSaber]

In FE PoR trial maps, Ike is a monster that takes on any unit on his own. Enemy archers miss more than half the time. And when arrows do connect they tend to do no damage. Perhaps he may recieve some damage.

As for Pit, he's an archer with magic arrows so all he has to do is perch himself at a high point. Ike can't evade all the arrows

 

[REL38]

What? What? That's a stupid reason. All characters who have vehicles automatically win against characters who have lackluster mobility just because they can't get on?

By the way, would Rope Snake count as an ally or an item? He's a key item in the game, but he's kind of alive so meh. Lucas can use that to get on the halberd.

The Halberd is waaay up in the sky.
Lucas can't actually reach the Halberd in any way or fashion wherelse the Halberd is shooting at Lucas. PSI powers only work on foes at a fighting distance.
Several hundred or thousands of feet in the air is already out of range.

Rope Snake can't stretch anywhere near close enough to latch onto the Halberd.
Thusly, none of Lucas' attacks damage the Halberd. Out of range.
Heck, he needs to board it to even damage it.

Thusly, Metaknight wins.


btw
Does it say that only weapons blessed by Yuna or Ashera can hurt Ike?

 

[Alondite]

Incorrect.

I don't wanna type that all up again. So here it is:

If it ain't blessed by Ashera or Yuna, it ain't hurting him physically. End of discussion. The only people that can hurt him in this contest are Ness, Lucas, and Mewtwo. A few others like Ganondorf can tie him due to the whole "Only the chosen can hurt me!" thing, but thats it.

Ike wins. Pit can't do anything but escape.

I'd like canonical proof. Yune's blessing is nowhere near as strong as Ashera's because it was given to more people. Look at the golden knights, they are blessed by Ashera and you can still hurt them without being blessed. You could argue that they aren't, but I would imagine that would be very difficult to do.

 

[Ussi]

Doesn't Pit die in one hit in his game? Or what?

How do Pit's arrow work? Straight line only? Or controllable?

Ike is as strong enough to be a boss in the end game oh his own game. Pit comes from one of those games where you have to dodge everything to just live, then throw a bunch of weak attacks until the boss dies.

I think Ike wins without even needing the blessing. Or I'm ignorant


Edit: How the hell are you blessed but not blessed?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Physically... that equals swords, physical blows an the likes? Or does it just make him invulnerable against attacks that are not mental? PSI rockin and psychic, while psionics, still harm him physically and do not attack his brain or something. I also doubt Yune would bless Ike against things like lasers or energy beams, those are hard to find in the medieval era. But blessing is a blessing.

So is it against physical attacks, like sword, contact moves and likes, or is his body invulnerable to damage?

Theres light magic in FE. so what makes light and lasers different?

I'd like canonical proof. Yune's blessing is nowhere near as strong as Ashera's because it was given to more people. Look at the golden knights, they are blessed by Ashera and you can still hurt them without being blessed. You could argue that they aren't, but I would imagine that would be very difficult to do.

Play the game again then, yune said her blessing was equal and opposite to ashera's. Yune also explained that they weren't blessed there's no "you can argue that they weren't bless" the game told you that. It was similar to the blessing ashera had given to the 4 heroes but more like she just powered them up.

And even if you want to continue along that line of thinking it only contradicts your statement about Yune's blessing being weaker because it was used on more people.


I'm wondering something though, on Ike's last match up against sonic someone said super sonic could be hurt by other chaos beings. Which would include ike and his weapons since they do have a blessing of chaos. I know ike won anyway but his invincibility isn't the only reason he's winning.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Pit's arrows deffinatly will hurt Ike, blessing or not. Pit's bow could be classified as blessed, and it would likely hurt Ganondorf as well.

Ike's a monster in Fire Emblem. By far the best lord in all western released Fire Emblems. Ragnell's +5 Defence is also really nice, as is Aether. If Pit gets hit by Aether, it's over. And for the lulz, Ike restores all his damage.

I'm thinking Ike will indeed win this as well. Though Pit has a sort of stalling advantage, cause he could fly out of Ike's range. Unlike, Pegasus and Wyvern Knights who don't do this in Fire Emblem... they always come in range to attack close ranged fighters.

But if Pit wants to hit Ike, he'll have to be low enough to ensure his hit. Ike's ranged sword wave would likely counter Pit, and if Ike's faster he'll double attack, likely killing Pit. Aether can only be used up close though, however... Cutscenes with the Black Knight show Ike is pretty **** agile and he could probably do a jumping attack to reach Pit.

But with all these things aside, Ike still has the advantage of being able to heal damage of with Elixers. Dunno if Pit can heal... but if he can't, he's got a problem.

 

[BSP]

I still think that infinite Super Sonic can be beaten. In the same game that he was considered "Infinite" Robotnik was able to defeat Super Sonic. How did he do this and can it be done again?

Unless someone has a machine to drain the emeralds, no.

I’ll admit…PK has a rule…the rule is simple really…it happens to be that it refers “to the direct influence of mind on a physical system that cannot be entirely accounted for by the mediation of any known physical energy”…or if you look into that meaning further…it is control over chaos…it’s a pretty clear rule if you ask me for what something like that means…







Yeah…M2 is a bit better than him…sorry about that Actually, only certain people can use the chaos emeralds' energy for themselves. Sonic, Silver, Shadow and Knuckles are the only ones who have been able to use the emeralds power to go into a super form. Silver can use the emeralds, regardless of his psychic power, so how does that makes M2 able to mess with them? And actually, the emeralds are on a totally different level than the psychic users here. The emeralds have brought dead back to life. Ness, Lucas, and Mewtwo have not. If you can prove me wrong, do it by showing actual evidence.



So…Silver’s TK is different than Ness’ TK…even though they have the same definition reference behind them?
Funny…So…how did Sonic win the Bowser vs. Sonic match by stealing the star rod again when it’s never been shown that Sonic can hold a rod? HE DIDNT STEAL THE ROD. He can hit bowser before he has a chance to use anything, that's how sonic wins, not stealing the rod!

These made up rules about such and such not being the same are just cope outs for allowing fake wins…someone who shows that they have control over chaos in their “universe” should still be controlling chaos in said neutral battleground that we appear to be still putting this match into…because I don’t see how the definition would fix into them not just being able to just because the name isn’t the same …

Mother 2 to 3 pretty much shows that name doesn’t matter…it gives enough hints to show that they are the same with many things (King’s gear, Psychic power types, ect.)



How is he going to have infinite super sonic again when I can think of two canon instances that showed Sonic/someone Sonic =\= Shadow, again, just because shadow lost his power, doesnt mean sonic will. Sonic is ok after the fight even. losing his super form because of him being stressed out? Atmospheric reentry caused the wipeout in advance right? wlell in andventure 2's gameplay, in the final boss, you start re entering the atmosphere, and nothing happens, contradiction. do they cancel each other or something?

God…there is more canon proof showing Super Sonic has limits to his power than just some theory about it being unlimited… Theory? I've given Chronicles, Unleashed, and Sonic Advance ending (unless cutscenes dont count ) explanation. The only 'limits' he gets in actual gameplay is the stupid ring count, which is still a game mech. It doesnt matter if it's been around for a while, but it still has yet to recieve an explanation.
It’s being powered by a unlimited energy source yes…but still…that said energy source has a charge!

my bad, forgot, tails can use the hyper emeralds.

@ Justaway

But since the ring count has yet to recieve an explanation, it's just as doubtable as infinite super sonic, which i have explained. By what you said, invulnerability after being hit should be allowed since it has been around in every game. It recieved no explanation, so we declared it a game mech. SS ring limit is the same exact way. If you can find an explanation of why SS has the ring count, that changes things. And what do you mean with no proof?

Ok, do cutscenes count or not?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dunno, couldn't Embargo stop Sonic from using the Chaos Emeralds? Mewtwo might have a chance then. Me First is also an option... Quick Claw maybe?

 

[missingnomaster]

Turning into Super Sonic takes less time than using Embargo.

A Quick Claw has a relatively low chance of working, and does not decrease the amount of time it takes a move to work.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Bah. Infinitive Super Sonic sounds so.. cheap. >_> I don't want Sonic to win that way.

 

[missingnomaster]

Well, he's got no reason to not go Super Sonic.

I don't have any arguments against the infinite super sonic stuff; it makes sense to me.

 

[Ekul]

Mewtwo potentially has Substitute, which presumably would be able to buy Mewtwo enough time to Embargo Super Sonic. Plus, during the substitution, if it is necessary to aim Embargo he could use Aura Sphere instead which always hits.

Using three moves, Mewtwo can recover, hide and always hit for as long as he has PP: Also, he presumably has enough Max Elixers to hold him over.
Substitute
Recover
Aura sphere

 

[BSP]

Mewtwo potentially has Substitute, which presumably would be able to buy Mewtwo enough time to Embargo Super Sonic. Plus, during the substitution, if it is necessary to aim Embargo he could use Aura Sphere instead which always hits.

Using three moves, Mewtwo can recover, hide and always hit for as long as he has PP: Also, he presumably has enough Max Elixers to hold him over.
Substitute
Recover
Aura sphere

Sonic can probably still hit mewtwo before the substitute comes out anyway. if not, Sonic just stops time once he sees the substitute, he rips it apart, then hits mewtwo.

Has M2 vs Sonic been done?

Back to infinite SS:

The ring limit is the only limit he experiences during gameplay. As i have said, it has yet to recieve an explanation, and is as valid as invulnerability after getting hit. (aka game mech,., not valid). Just becasue it has been around for a while (like the invulnerability) doesnt mean we should accept it as fact without an explanation. Do all cutscenes count or not? Also, remember that the emeralds are on a whole didfferent level than any of the psychics here. The emeralds have brought the dead back to life, something the psychics haven't done. That alone shows that they have more power than the psychics. If cutscenes don't count, then there aren't any arguements agaisnt infinite, since the GAMEPLAY SS has yet to show limits, besides the ring count (game mech)

That brings another question: Are we going off of gameplay only, or are the cutscenes included?

 

[Ekul]

Sonic can probably still hit mewtwo before the substitute comes out anyway. if not, Sonic just stops time once he sees the substitute, he rips it apart, then hits mewtwo.

I assume that it would be instant, there's no description regarding substitute.

After he breaks the substitute, Mewtwo would not be able to be attacked until he resumed time. If the Time Stop is a status effect rather than an actual stasis, then it would not affect him anyway since the substitute prevents statuses on the user of substitute.

 

[BSP]

I assume that it would be instant, there's no description regarding substitute.

After he breaks the substitute, Mewtwo would not be able to be attacked until he resumed time. If the Time Stop is a status effect rather than an actual stasis, then it would not affect him anyway since the substitute prevents statuses on the user of substitute.

oh, sorry. Sonic breaks the substitute, waits for time to move on, then hits mewtwo when he can. Sonic could actually time stop again here, since his ring max is still undefined.

 

[PowerBomb]

Mewtwo potentially has Substitute, which presumably would be able to buy Mewtwo enough time to Embargo Super Sonic. Plus, during the substitution, if it is necessary to aim Embargo he could use Aura Sphere instead which always hits.

Using three moves, Mewtwo can recover, hide and always hit for as long as he has PP: Also, he presumably has enough Max Elixers to hold him over.
Substitute
Recover
Aura sphere

Why the hell would Mewtwo have Max Elixers? He isn't a trainer...

Unless you're using the lame PMD Mewtwo, in which case he gets extremely jacked up with his damage formula and becomes extremely restricted for certain moves.

Embargo affects held items. Is Super Sonic holding an item?

 

[Ekul]

Okay then, how about this: Mewtwo uses teleport and then Aura Sphere, then teleport, then Aura Sphere. Aura sphere always hits, and Mewtwo can't be tracked.

EDIT: Mewtwo can presumably carry and use objects, since they exist in his game. Is there evidence to the contrary I am unaware of?

 

[missingnomaster]

Aura Sphere will be doing no damage. Teleport will barely be able to keep Mewtwo safe from Super Sonic

 

[PowerBomb]

Mewtwo doesn't learn Teleport.

If you guys want to use teleport, then use the Gen 1/2 Mewtwo.

 

[BSP]

K, if you're still against infinite Super Sonic, answer this :

Invulnerability after getting hit has been around in every sonic game. It has yet to recieve an explanation, and therefore, we consider it a game mechanic and dont pay attention to it in this thread. SS ring limit is the EXACT same thing. It has been around in most of the sonic games up to date. It has also failed to recieve an official explanation as to why it exists. Therefore, by the same rules we ignore invulnerability after getting hit with, we should also ignore SS ring limit. Remember that Sonic's only limit in gameplay is the ring count. Since SS ring count is a game mechanic, He has no limits. Therefore, he has no limit to his super power, it becomes infinite, since the only limit has been removed. So, if Sonic's ring limit is allowed, so should invulnerability after getting hit, and as we know, that's illogical and not allowed. SS's ring limit has every single quality of invulnerability after getting hit (no explanation, only presence in the games), so why is it a limit here when the other isn't allowed?

I really don't have to prove the infinite cases in Unleashed and Chronicles now. If ring count is removed, they dont matter, since Super Sonic becomes truly infinite.

Basically, if you think invulnerability after getting hit is stupid and shouldn't be allowed, you are being hypocritical if you think SS ring limit should be allowed. They have the same exact qualities.

So if SS ring limit stands, invulnerability after getting hit exists as well. You can't say that these two things are different either. The answer to the question : 'Why is invulnerability after hit not allowed?" is simple : it has no explanation, and has only been in a large number of games. Sonic's ring count is the exact same. It has no explanation, and there is no way to prove (as in, find an official explanation) that it is a true limit.

Another way to look at it: Sonic's ring limit applies because it has been shown in numerous games, regardless of no explanation. Therefore, invulnerability after getting hit also applies since it has been shown in numerous games, without explanation. (same thing) Do we support this? no. therefore....

Infinite Super Sonic ftw.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mewtwo doesn't learn Teleport.

If you guys want to use teleport, then use the Gen 1/2 Mewtwo.

Gen 1 Mewtwo is a ****ing beast with Amnesia. We can really use that one? He of coarse has no Embargo like that, but still it'd help him a lot in matches where he doesn't need it. Like.. vs Ike or Pit.

Is it not like.. if we the supporters formed the character, it'll stay like that or something?

And no, Mewtwo shouldn't get Max Elixers and stuff. TMs are good enough seeing as he's wild. Level 100 and EVs are also very generous. That Mewtwo is this good this far, is because of that.

Anyways, Super Sonic will be high on the list then I guess. Guess Sonic vs everyone is at least a draw now? But still, I think because this power is so broken, anything ever shown to break through it should be breaking through it.

Like, if some curse would turn Sonic back, and X character could do a similar curse, it should be allowed.

Spoiler

Can't word it better now cause I'm baked as hell.

Uhm. Yeah that's it. Said my thing on this matchup a page ago so I'm done.

EDIT: By looking back, I think Peach should've won from Zelda. What can Zelda really do? Light Arrows would probably bounce of with the parasol.

 

[PowerBomb]

And her precognition isn't exactly AMAZING.

Peach also has a vast array of items. Zelda can't possibly predict EVERYTHING, her precognition isn't shown to be extremely versatile, is it?

 

[BSP]

Yes, Raizen changed it! Finally, infinite Super Sonic. But that's probably not the best post to link raizen, you should link post #7821, it's better (and irefutable)

Sonic vs. Ike is a draw now. They can't hurt each other
Sonic vs. MK is a win for sonic. MK can't hurt Sonic at all.

Ike back to +2, Sonic to +3, MK to nuetral.

 

[Ussi]

K, if you're still against infinite Super Sonic, answer this :

Invulnerability after getting hit has been around in every sonic game. It has yet to recieve an explanation, and therefore, we consider it a game mechanic and dont pay attention to it in this thread. SS ring limit is the EXACT same thing. It has been around in most of the sonic games up to date. It has also failed to recieve an official explanation as to why it exists. Therefore, by the same rules we ignore invulnerability after getting hit with, we should also ignore SS ring limit. Remember that Sonic's only limit in gameplay is the ring count. Since SS ring count is a game mechanic, He has no limits. Therefore, he has no limit to his super power, it becomes infinite, since the only limit has been removed. So, if Sonic's ring limit is allowed, so should invulnerability after getting hit, and as we know, that's illogical and not allowed. SS's ring limit has every single quality of invulnerability after getting hit (no explanation, only presence in the games), so why is it a limit here when the other isn't allowed?

I really don't have to prove the infinite cases in Unleashed and Chronicles now. If ring count is removed, they dont matter, since Super Sonic becomes truly infinite.

Basically, if you think invulnerability after getting hit is stupid and shouldn't be allowed, you are being hypocritical if you think SS ring limit should be allowed. They have the same exact qualities.

So if SS ring limit stands, invulnerability after getting hit exists as well. You can't say that these two things are different either. The answer to the question : 'Why is invulnerability after hit not allowed?" is simple : it has no explanation, and has only been in a large number of games. Sonic's ring count is the exact same. It has no explanation, and there is no way to prove (as in, find an official explanation) that it is a true limit.

Another way to look at it: Sonic's ring limit applies because it has been shown in numerous games, regardless of no explanation. Therefore, invulnerability after getting hit also applies since it has been shown in numerous games, without explanation. (same thing) Do we support this? no. therefore....

Infinite Super Sonic ftw.

Why was invulnerability after hit not allowed in the first place? o.o.... i thought this thread was not supposed to make sense of anything and bring in realism...

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Just be aware, Wii/PS2 Unleashed has a ring counter, PS3/360 just have a meter. Doesn't matter either way, Super Sonic's rings still drain if he get's damaged by a godlike strong attack. †

 

[Samochan]

Infinite super sonicness is very bad game designing if he's completely invulnerable to damage and has no timer whatsoever, so it's doubtful this is the case. >_> One should be able to hurt super sonic or knock his ring count/meter down at least if infinite super sonicness is used. How is a game gonna be even least bit enjoyable if you can just breeze through as super sonic without doing anything? Undefined amount of rings doesn't make it unlimited amount though. Ring limiter is there because Sonic's super mode was only temporary for as long as you got rings. It's the same as Samus hyper mode mechanics. I need to research more, but to me it kinda seems like this infinite super sonic is done by combining some undefined amount of rings from another game to another super sonic whom doesn't even drain his rings for some reason. But thing is, if super sonic's mechanics work differently from game to game, you have to choose what mechanics you wanna use. If one sonic has a infinite one but meter that lowers when you get hit, while other is invincible but has ring count, you can't go and just combine them as it makes zero sense and Sonic can't be both fully invincible but then get his meter & ring count lowered by strong hits. It's like combining RBY Mewtwo with 4th Gen one. It's very iffy too, because combining those both game mechanics which do not work but for the one game's super sonic due to how he was built in that game, makes for ridiculous super sonic mechanics. However, sonic has never been shown to be completely infinite, be it ring count or meter. 999 rings seems like a good amount of invulnerability time in contrast to meter whom you can still knock around, some of these chars have really strong attacks in their arsenal.

Temporary invincibility after each hit though is a full game mechanic and should be ignored. It's on every game anyway and for the players benefit so they can hit an enemy and actually get away before they gain massive damage cause their hitbox stays in tangent with the enemy. You could imagine that without it, you'd get multiple hit on every frame you touch enemy. Samus actually gets a good boost out of every enemy she comes in contact with on Super.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I agree with that, everything that CAN hurt Super Sonic, should hurt him.

Sleepy, can you post a vid of Super Sonic getting hurt or losing his rings? What exactly is a godlike strong attack like that? Would say... Aether and Mach Tornado count as suck an attack??

 

[DUB]

If Aeither is a "godlike" attack then I give the win to Ike. Show me someone who will survive that.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Mario, can you bring up that post where you showed how Super Sonic remains super infinite?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ike might win without Aether even... Nihil is another skill of Ike, it'll prevent using special skills. Turning into Super Sonic might be something like that. Aether is monsterous if it hits, but can Ike hit Sonic with it?

 

[BSP]

♪ Just be aware, Wii/PS2 Unleashed has a ring counter, PS3/360 just have a meter. Doesn't matter either way, Super Sonic's rings still drain if he get's damaged by a godlike strong attack. †

The ring counter in Unleasshed is just as susceptible to the thing i said above. For PS3/360, i have explained why dark gaia can hurt sonic. Only attacks from Chaos emerald influenced enemies have been shown to hurt Super Sonic, the force doesn't matter. (Dark Gaia and Super Ix from Chronicles)

Infinite super sonicness is very bad game designing if he's completely invulnerable to damage and has no timer whatsoever, so it's doubtful this is the case. >_> One should be able to hurt super sonic (no one can, since only attacks from chaos emerald influenced enemies have been shown to hurt SS)or knock his ring count/meter down at least if infinite super sonicness is used. How is a game gonna be even least bit enjoyable if you can just breeze through as super sonic without doing anything? Isn't this beside the point?Undefined amount of rings doesn't make it unlimited amount though. Ring limiter is there because Sonic's super mode was only temporary for as long as you got rings. It's the same as Samus hyper mode mechanics. I need to research more, but to me it kinda seems like this infinite super sonic is done by combining some undefined amount of rings from another game to another super sonic whom doesn't even drain his rings for some reason. But thing is, if super sonic's mechanics work differently from game to game, you have to choose what mechanics you wanna use. If one sonic has a infinite one but meter that lowers when you get hit, while other is invincible but has ring count, you can't go and just combine them as it makes zero sense and Sonic can't be both fully invincible but then get his meter & ring count lowered by strong hits. It's like combining RBY Mewtwo with 4th Gen one. It's very iffy too, because combining those both game mechanics which do not work but for the one game's super sonic due to how he was built in that game, makes for ridiculous super sonic mechanics. However, sonic has never been shown to be completely infinite, be it ring count or meter. 999 rings seems like a good amount of invulnerability time in contrast to meter whom you can still knock around, some of these chars have really strong attacks in their arsenal.


I'll get back to the italicized stuff about Unleashed SS in a second, but my current arguement is the one about 'if invulnerability after getting hit is ignored, SS's ring limit should be too. But just so you know, I chose to go with only unleashed mechanics, aand then explained why Dark gaia could hurt him, and the others here couldn't


Temporary invincibility after each hit though is a full game mechanic and should be ignored. Tell me why? What invalidates invulnerability after getting hit in this thread? It's on every game anyway and for the players benefit so they can hit an enemy and actually get away before they gain massive damage cause their hitbox stays in tangent with the enemy. And i could say SS's ring limit is only there so the final boss isn't too easy, so the gamer can enjoy their game moreYou could imagine that without it, you'd get multiple hit on every frame you touch enemy. And SS without his ring limit would make the final boss insanely easy. Reasons why they are in the game dont matter, the reasons that invalidates invulnerability after getting hit here are what im looking at, since i's the same for SS's ring count Samus actually gets a good boost out of every enemy she comes in contact with on Super.

I agree with that, everything that CAN hurt Super Sonic, should hurt him.

Sleepy, can you post a vid of Super Sonic getting hurt or losing his rings? What exactly is a godlike strong attack like that? Would say... Aether and Mach Tornado count as suck an attack??

Only chaos emerald influenced entities have been shown to be able to hurt SS. Aether and Mach Tornado wouldn't. Actually, no attack here would work. The force of the attack does not matter.

Replies in red.

Raizen, it's number 7821 I'll quote it next time i post, but i dont want to double post.

I gotta go, ill finish this later

 

[Samochan]

Invulnerability after getting hit is a simple game mechanic. There are even cases where same character gets it on one game and on another doesn't (samus in 2D games and prime respectively). Nothing about the characters themselves validates invincibility after getting hit either, it's just there for player's benefit. It's not explained, it's not part of the characters abilities, it can be abused and glitched... it is simply there to prevent players from getting stuck onto enemy every single frame your hitboxes are tangent, it would create huge problems if this wasn't the case unless every enemy ohkos on hit. There are certain mechanics we follow here, but some are just very dumb and poor additions, like mario getting health from surfacing on water (though there's no water here, but it's beside the point) and heck, absolutely true to game mechanics would mean neither sonic nor samus could run at sonic speeds cause they don't do so ingame, even though their abilities are described. Nor could you ever attack pokemon trainer, for instance and pokemons couldn't ever, ever die on battle. Then RPG turn based mechanics, hit points etc.

 

[justaway12]

@ Justaway

But since the ring count has yet to recieve an explanation, it's just as doubtable as infinite super sonic, which i have explained. By what you said, invulnerability after being hit should be allowed since it has been around in every game. It recieved no explanation, so we declared it a game mech. SS ring limit is the same exact way. If you can find an explanation of why SS has the ring count, that changes things. And what do you mean with no proof?

Sorry, when I said no proof, I meant that, you're bringing games that contradict every other game but without explanation why. Like the Pokedex, if someone came into a thread and said that we shouldn't listen to the pokedex since it breaks canon but he didn't prove it, why should we listen to him? (I know someone did prove it wrong, just an example). If you bring 1 and a half games (since it acts as a ring couter for the PS2/Wii one) into the conversation, you should back it up, you've said that the ring thing breaks canon and nothing can hit him out of it (unless Chaos), yet lets not forget he has been knocked out of Super Sonic in Sonic Advance 2, which just contradicts Unleased.

There can be plenty of reasons he actually gets knocked out. not forgetting that sapping away his life seems like a big thing, I don't think it's like me trying to prove that invulnerability after being hit should be allowed since it has been around in every game, it more like that I think Knuckles actually being able to knock out Sonic of his invincibilty shouldn't be allowed because it only appeared in one game without any proof at all.

Ok, do cutscenes count or not?

Well, I think they should count as long as they don't contrdict stuff, like that example I gave. Cutscenes are obviously canon, but when they contridict like that bomb thing, that shouldn't be counted IMO.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

K, if you're still against infinite Super Sonic, answer this :

Invulnerability after getting hit has been around in every sonic game. It has yet to recieve an explanation, and therefore, we consider it a game mechanic and dont pay attention to it in this thread. SS ring limit is the EXACT same thing. It has been around in most of the sonic games up to date. It has also failed to recieve an official explanation as to why it exists. Therefore, by the same rules we ignore invulnerability after getting hit with, we should also ignore SS ring limit. Remember that Sonic's only limit in gameplay is the ring count. Since SS ring count is a game mechanic, He has no limits. Therefore, he has no limit to his super power, it becomes infinite, since the only limit has been removed. So, if Sonic's ring limit is allowed, so should invulnerability after getting hit, and as we know, that's illogical and not allowed. SS's ring limit has every single quality of invulnerability after getting hit (no explanation, only presence in the games), so why is it a limit here when the other isn't allowed?

I really don't have to prove the infinite cases in Unleashed and Chronicles now. If ring count is removed, they dont matter, since Super Sonic becomes truly infinite.

Basically, if you think invulnerability after getting hit is stupid and shouldn't be allowed, you are being hypocritical if you think SS ring limit should be allowed. They have the same exact qualities.

So if SS ring limit stands, invulnerability after getting hit exists as well. You can't say that these two things are different either. The answer to the question : 'Why is invulnerability after hit not allowed?" is simple : it has no explanation, and has only been in a large number of games. Sonic's ring count is the exact same. It has no explanation, and there is no way to prove (as in, find an official explanation) that it is a true limit.

Another way to look at it: Sonic's ring limit applies because it has been shown in numerous games, regardless of no explanation. Therefore, invulnerability after getting hit also applies since it has been shown in numerous games, without explanation. (same thing) Do we support this? no. therefore.....

But, by this same logic I should then allow other stuff as well. Link riding on Epona, for example. It was never explained why he was invulnerable to (almost) everything when he rid it. Or Link shooting his arrow towards the sun and getting back a fire arrow. This is just what GaleKill was trying to bring up.

I really don't think I should allow infinite super sonic now.

 

[Ussi]

Only chaos emerald influenced entities have been shown to be able to hurt SS. Aether and Mach Tornado wouldn't. Actually, no attack here would work. The force of the attack does not matter.

Replies in red.

Raizen, it's number 7821 I'll quote it next time i post, but i dont want to double post.

I gotta go, ill finish this later

i though it was just chaos entities.. Anyways

Ike's aether has the ability to ignore defense for the 2nd hit.

 

[Kewkky]

i though it was just chaos entities.. Anyways

Ike's aether has the ability to ignore defense for the 2nd hit.

Hmm... I wonder how that would work. Does it just pierce armor (making it ignore all armor defenses), or does it simply inflict direct damage? What if the enemy's defense is built into itself; does the Aether's 2nd hit do the same damage to all the enemies, or does it do more damage to some and less to others?

 

[Ussi]

Hmm... I wonder how that would work. Does it just pierce armor (making it ignore all armor defenses), or does it simply inflict direct damage? What if the enemy's defense is built into itself; does the Aether's 2nd hit do the same damage to all the enemies, or does it do more damage to some and less to others?

Same damage to everyone. ike's maximum damage. Rangell doesn't have Armor priecing on it's own (if you mean like "Armorslayers" which deal double damage to armor units)

by defense built on themselves, Laguz can be seen like that as they don't wear armor. They Are affected the same way.

 

[Kewkky]

Same damage to everyone. ike's maximum damage. Rangell doesn't have Armor priecing on it's own (if you mean like "Armorslayers" which deal double damage to armor units)

by defense built on themselves, Laguz can be seen like that as they don't wear armor. They Are affected the same way.

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. Answered it perfectly.

Well, that's pretty bad for invulnerable opponents. Now, all Ike has to do is close in on his opponents and he gets a hit on them... Which is the hard part, since all the "invulnerable" opponents in this thread are either very fast, or have some long-range abilities which might make it so Aether is hard to pull off.

 

[Ussi]

in Fire Emblem it goes by % to be hit. If Murphy's law can be considered a game mechanic (lol) Sonic gets hit right away otherwise Sonic can keep dodging but eventually Ike will hit. Besides Ike is the 2nd fastest human unit.