Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[ForteEscape]

Ness or Link

 

[Godhand_Soup]

It's Jigglypuff.

I'm disappointed with the Ganon review. " Not top tier, but who cares"? I thought we were being objective about character analysis.

 

[acv]

its ness or lucas.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I'm disappointed with the Ganon review. " Not top tier, but who cares"? I thought we were being objective about character analysis.

That's being objective and subjective at the same time. They're admitting that he is not top tier, but at the same time catering to people that love him as a character.

 

[BigRick]

Well thats why you mix up the missiles a bit. The slower speed of the seeker missiles makes them easier to avoid, but they disrupt the gameflow more making it harder for characters that rely on the momentum of a fight a lot.

Mixing up the missiles wont do a thing, he runs under them.

I did. And Wario doesn't fit the hints seeing as none of his B-moves are really spammable with any amount of success. The bike is too important for his recovery and the others speak for themselves.

No. The bike is commonly used to approach a projectile user. Cross your opponent up with the bike and get off of it right next to the edge so that it falls off the stage.

Some characters can punish it though if they jump high enough.

As for this week... I guess it might be Samus. Underplayed, lots of glaring weaknesses, can spam well enough, and needs spacing to use missile cancels and zairs effectively.

I agree with you... but so far I dont see a thing that would make samus a better guess then link. Maybe the better Zair that allows her to better deal with campers.

 

[Doctor X]

No. The bike is commonly used to approach a projectile user. Cross your opponent up with the bike and get off of it right next to the edge so that it falls off the stage.

Some characters can punish it though if they jump high enough.

If you haven't, try playing Wario in tournament, especially against a good Rob or Snake. A lot of projectiles go through the bike and knock him off, opening him up for punishment and potentially getting the bike left on the stage. Even if you get it to fall off it still takes a bit of time before you can use it again, which can lead to a lot of bad situations if you spam it. Plus... Wario has other ground options. His smashes are all very fast and his fsmash is one of the strongest in the game.

Maybe he was a better guess than some others (sonic... lul) but he didn't fit the clues in more ways than one.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Update #9: ????

This character has a difficult learning curve as spacing is essential. This character can stop most campy characters from camping, spams all over slow characters, but is still too slow to do anything to a fast character. There is no doubt this underplayed character can become amazing in the future, but a few glaring weaknesses will probably prevent this character from ever reaching some of the higher tiers.

Sounds like Olimar to me. Spacing is essential and difficult with him. He wins most camp battles since he could do over 100% with projectiles in the amount of time it takes them to do 30%, and against big fat slow characters, can just run around all day and spam. Faster characters could just pressure him instead of camping, and he's still too slow to get away to keep him from doing it. As for the "glaring weakness" a ****ty recovery sounds like one to me, which'll mean he probably will never be the best character in the game but he has enough potential that he can be amazing.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Sounds like Olimar, I must admit!

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Oli. I'm fairly confident of that. I'd say I'm thinking 90% Oli with 10% Link.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

It's Jigglypuff.

I'm disappointed with the Ganon review. " Not top tier, but who cares"? I thought we were being objective about character analysis.

You're right. We shouldn't be allowed to have some fun along with a mountain of objective analysis already done.

And think of those summaries as less of a review of the character and more of a summary of the thread you should be reading.

 

[bacun]

It's Lucas or Olimar. Lucas obviously hardcounters many/most campers with magnet, making short work of Zelda, Lucario, Falco, Wolf, etc. by taking their power and converting it to delicious health. His glaring weaknesses, while less than Ness's, include being light without the amazing speed that most light characters have to make up for it, an unorthodox dsmash which can make spacing extremely difficult, and a falcon punch equivalent for his upsmash. This completely ignoring the fact that Marth has an infinite on him, which is simply HORRIBLE since Marth is one of the more commonly played characters out there. But PK fire definitely wrecks slow characters while being hardly annoying against fast ones. Play Lucas one round against Diddy and one round against Ike and see what I mean.

Olimar for reasons that have been listed.

 

[Talek]

Edit: Nvm i'm going with Link all the way.

 

[Ban3]

i think its dk he has learning curve, he sorta slow he can spam ftilt and dtilt he needs to be spaced well and he is sorta underplayed but he is big and heavy and no projectile.

 

[cultofrubik]

i think its dk he has learning curve, he sorta slow he can spam ftilt and dtilt he needs to be spaced well and he is sorta underplayed but he is big and heavy and no projectile.

But he doesn't spam all over other slow characters... I mean we're looking for a slow character that has a good jab and or projectile that limits camping opponents. I see what you're saying, but it doesn't seem as convincing as another character - say Olimar.

And lol. <3 SamuraiPanda

 

[wasabicheese]

definately Tlink or Olimar next

 

[Talek]

definately Tlink or Olimar next

Hmm i don't think it would be Tlink because he can keep up with the fast characters considering he's very fast and has quick attacks that can disrupt a faster characters attack flow. But you never know though.

 

[Pieisthebest]

Lulz I think its either:

1. Olimar
2.Wario
3.Link
4. Samus
or 5. DK
For reasons llisted before

 

[RizardoLawless]

Pit
l. kjuio

 

[JJR.O.B.]

ive changed my mind from D3 to Link

 

[betterthanbonds9]

my first guesses are always wrong so today i think I'll actually look at the hint and attempt a breakdown...

This character has a difficult learning curve as spacing is essential. This character can stop most campy characters from camping, spams all over slow characters, but is still too slow to do anything to a fast character. There is no doubt this underplayed character can become amazing in the future, but a few glaring weaknesses will probably prevent this character from ever reaching some of the higher tiers.

-it's not that the character requires spacing, it means the spacing is difficult
-needs a projectile
-needs a spammable projectile
-slow attacks that fast characters pounce on
-underplayed
-middle tier potential

spammable projectiles are probably the easiest to narrow down by:

mario
link
samus
fox
pikachu
luigi
zelda fast attacks
shiek
pit
falco
pokemon trainer squirtle is the main reason why this doesn't work
snake
peach would mention something about the air
yoshi
IC
DDD
Wolf
Lucario
Ness
Toon link
ROB
Olimar fast attacks
lucas

slash means it doesn't fit some criteria or has already been showcased

so...by my (probably faulty) logic, ness and link are the most likely.

problem is that ness doesn't have a great future because of the automatic attack you get on him any time you grab him, and who knows? link might just have some great middle tier power!

 

[thisismatt]

First guess: Wario
Second guess: Link

 

[surrepGuy]

I have to agree on it being link. Reading the hint made him pop right out in my mind. Narrowing down betterthanbonds9 post with the fact that Ness does have multiple fast attacks while many of links are pretty slow. When fast chars get in close on link its usually him that takes most of the beating.

 

[surrepGuy]

Keep seeing people say wario and that just makes me think WTF?? Wario can't spam as he doesn't even have projectiles. He is also far from slow and doesn't get rolled by the fastest characers.

 

[Kitamerby]

This character has a difficult learning curve as spacing is essential. This character can stop most campy characters from camping, spams all over slow characters, but is still too slow to do anything to a fast character. There is no doubt this underplayed character can become amazing in the future, but a few glaring weaknesses will probably prevent this character from ever reaching some of the higher tiers.

...I can't help but feel that we're missing something. Although a portion of this was taken from a description according to the original post, the fact that they use the word "spam" rather than "projectile" gives an impression that they may not exactly be talking about a projectile character, but rather a character with a move which is extremely effective to spam, possibly a physical move. For example, it's extremely easy to spam Toon Link's Bair or Marth's Fair or Dancing Blade. They also are very cryptic when they state that they can "stop campy characters from camping." This can mean multiple things. It could mean that they can stop campers via counterspam with a projectile (Such as Samus), that they can close the gap fast enough that they cannot be effectively spammed (such as Sonic), that they can reflect projectiles effectively with little vulnerable points (such as Fox's Reflector, which can be held indefinitely), or maybe even that they have an ability to AVOID spammers altogether, possibly by crawling or ducking or floating or something.

The "amazing but with glaring weaknesses" description seems like it might be one of the most important tips in the description, as well.


Honestly, I'm still going with Link, but this is just some food for thought. After all, the last one was very very deceiving.

 

[Metro Knight]

1 problem with it being Link. His Fsmash is a 2 hit combo, and if its charged up, it can do 44% dmg. In the hint, they say 5 hits can do 40% dmg. Link does have a zair->bomb-> sliding upsmash combo that can do 35% dmg though. Link does take a severe amount of spacing to compete versus good characters though. You really have to learn each opponent in order to have a chance. Like versus Wolf, I have to use a completely different moveset, than what I use against Ness or Lucas, and Ness and Lucas, I have play completely differently, because 1 of them im constantly dodging, and the other I am constantly blocking due to Ness's grab game and Lucas's smashes that are hard to dodge, because of their duration. I think Link is a very very good character, but you really have to have a lot of experience playing against high tier characters in order to compete, and going against MK, Wolf, etc are really hard, but it is not impossible.


About the quote that is above my post. Well, considering Link's recovery is garbage, and if you **** up and fast fall or airdodge at the wrong time, you get killed. You have to learn how to properly space all of his aerials and projectiles, or you will just miss and get punished. You really have to double jump and charge the first arrow in order to hit someone from very far away that is spamming you, and always use the fast arrows w/e you can, they are so fast. Link doesn't have a traditional spamming game, and if you just try and out spam the B button, you will lose versus Faloc/Fox/Wolf/etc.

 

[adumbrodeus]

''spacing is essential'' is not objective at all... no matter what char you play you will always get ***** if you cant space properly

yes Link fit the characteristics but I wonder why ppl simply put Samus or Peach out of the equation... bias?

Certain characters are more spacing reliant then others however. Projectile characters (at least those that are reliant on spamming projectiles for most of their metagame) are especially spacing reliant. Marth is also particularly spacing reliant because you have make sure that you hit with the correct portion of the blade.

Sure, everyone requires spacing, but few are so completely reliant on spacing as projectile spammers (keeping distance so you can function effectively), and Marth (making sure every move hits with the proper blade portion).


Now then, we can safely count out marth, even though he is spacing reliant, he just kills almost everyone, Snake being one of his few disadvantages.


Samus and Peach are both possibilities... but neither really has the glaring weakness that Link has in that he has such an easily gimped recovery. They certainly have weaknesses, that definitely not to that degree.

Furthermore, Samus is not quite as vulnerable to fast characters, Samus has an advantage verus Sonic while Link has a disadvantage against sonic, that alone should tell you something. Peach is neutral btw.

Certainly, samus can spam, she's got plenty of projectiles, but she's too good against fast characters (relative to what the hint says at least, she certainly can do SOMETHING against them).

Peach really doesn't have any spammy moves except the turnips, and they're not really match-dominating projectiles if the character is slower. They're more disruption tools. Beyond that she lacks anything that can be spammed.

1 problem with it being Link. His Fsmash is a 2 hit combo, and if its charged up, it can do 44% dmg. In the hint, they say 5 hits can do 40% dmg. Link does have a zair->bomb-> sliding upsmash combo that can do 35% dmg though. Link does take a severe amount of spacing to compete versus good characters though. You really have to learn each opponent in order to have a chance. Like versus Wolf, I have to use a completely different moveset, than what I use against Ness or Lucas, and Ness and Lucas, I have play completely differently, because 1 of them im constantly dodging, and the other I am constantly blocking due to Ness's grab game and Lucas's smashes that are hard to dodge, because of their duration. I think Link is a very very good character, but you really have to have a lot of experience playing against high tier characters in order to compete, and going against MK, Wolf, etc are really hard, but it is not impossible.

*Bolding added



And where did they say that in the hint?

Somebody mentioned that in an analysis of sonic as a candidate, but it wasn't in the hint.

 

[Metro Knight]

Sonic!
[x] Difficult learning curve (so say most people)
[x] Spacing is essential to avoid priority issues
[x] Makes it pointless for a campy Pit to spam arrows, among others. Camping doesn't usually last long against a Sonic, so it forces them to rely on more defensive melee moves.
[x] (CAN) spam attacks (in combos) on slow characters
[x] "Too slow" ... people say his attacks start too slow. Smashes, special attacks (at least, charging moves), among others.
[x] Has problems against fast attacking characters due to their attacks coming out and outprioritizing his moves
[x] Underplayed, definitely xD

[x] Has the potential for a 5+ hit 40+ damage combo (would be amazing if it could be mastered xD), has a major punishment game to take advantage of, and an amazing recovery that, if he had better damage and priority, would make him broken...

must be Sonic xD

You are right, I thought that was for Link, I guess I missed the SONIC.

 

[Izzhov]

It is so obviously Olimar. I may just be saying that because I main Olimar, but I'm right.

 

[Nelo Vergil]

This is a pretty tough one, I'd guess Link, Olimar or possibly even Charizard

 

[PiSToLZ]

everyone is saying link olimar wario. last time everyone said wario and it was a totaly unexpected character ganondorf. Ok since everyone is saying these characters i am going to use logic and make my guess mario. Yep . spammable projectile(lol) .

 

[UnSaxon51]

Well, I've been totally wrong every time so far, so I'm not placing a lot of stock in my own guess this time.

Personally, I think it fits Lucario pretty well, but the more I read about Link, the more I agree that it fits him just as well or better.

 

[Popertop]

nah, it can't be Lucario.
he doesn't have that much trouble against fast characters.
Link does, and has more "glaring weaknesses."

 

[adumbrodeus]

everyone is saying link olimar wario. last time everyone said wario and it was a totaly unexpected character ganondorf. Ok since everyone is saying these characters i am going to use logic and make my guess mario. Yep . spammable projectile(lol) .

Where's his glaring weakness though?

Plus, he doesn't have the massive vulnerability to fast characters based on speed (though a lot of fast characters do beat him out because of other things).

Sure, he can spam, but that's just not enough.

 

[WITH]

totally zelda

 

[LeeHarris]

Actually, it is the magical gypsy wizard-lumberjack. You guys were way off!

 

[BigRick]

Certain characters are more spacing reliant then others however. Projectile characters (at least those that are reliant on spamming projectiles for most of their metagame) are especially spacing reliant. Marth is also particularly spacing reliant because you have make sure that you hit with the correct portion of the blade.

Sure, everyone requires spacing, but few are so completely reliant on spacing as projectile spammers (keeping distance so you can function effectively), and Marth (making sure every move hits with the proper blade portion).


Now then, we can safely count out marth, even though he is spacing reliant, he just kills almost everyone, Snake being one of his few disadvantages.


Samus and Peach are both possibilities... but neither really has the glaring weakness that Link has in that he has such an easily gimped recovery. They certainly have weaknesses, that definitely not to that degree.

Furthermore, Samus is not quite as vulnerable to fast characters, Samus has an advantage verus Sonic while Link has a disadvantage against sonic, that alone should tell you something. Peach is neutral btw.

Certainly, samus can spam, she's got plenty of projectiles, but she's too good against fast characters (relative to what the hint says at least, she certainly can do SOMETHING against them).

Peach really doesn't have any spammy moves except the turnips, and they're not really match-dominating projectiles if the character is slower. They're more disruption tools. Beyond that she lacks anything that can be spammed.

The traditional term used in fighting games for correctly using ranged attacks is zoning, not spacing. But I guess that the term spacing could also be used... that's the first degree of ambiguity right there.

Don't say that Marth requires more spacing than say Mario. If Marth doesn't space well, he loses his very important range advantage while a Mario that doesn't space well will never land a single hit on Marth. Spacing is useful for EVERYONE so it's even more ambiguity right there.

Also both Samus/Peach have one glaring weakness, low KO power. Their floatiness and lack of flexibility in their projectiles don't make thm so great against fast chars, especially when some of them can just run under them.

And Peach's turnips do work against slower chars. Like you said it disrupts them.

Anyways, I think that the most important characteristic to look at is: ''can prevent ppl from camping''

But even that sentence is kinda ambiguous because we can't really tell what kind of camping it is. Some ppl only consider camping as runaway projectile spamming, while some others think about the whole non-agressive wait for opening kind of playstyle.

EDIT: Come to think of it, Panda's objective is to make it harder for us. So I guess that he did a great job.

 

[matthewmilad]

It's Zelda, Jigglypuff, or Wolf. I can't see it being anyone else.

Edit: Meh maybe it is Link I dunno.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The traditional term used in fighting games for correctly using ranged attacks is zoning, not spacing. But I guess that the term spacing could also be used... that's the first degree of ambiguity right there.

The term "zoning" has never really been used in smash, the reason is, imo, because there's so much mobility that ranged spacing and melee spacing are pretty much indistinguishable.

Don't say that Marth requires more spacing than say Mario. If Marth doesn't space well, he loses his very important range advantage while a Mario that doesn't space well will never land a single hit on Marth. Spacing is useful for EVERYONE so it's even more ambiguity right there.

Marth's melee is more spacing-DEPENDANT however. While Mario needs to space to land hits period, he has significantly more freedom in that zone of hitting, whereas if marth isn't significantly more precise then mario the result is that his opponent has completely the wrong knockback, so whatever marth planned is spoiled. The difference in knockback between different spacing in mario just isn't this pronounced (with a few notable exceptions), so a marth player has to space significantly more precisely whereas a mario player can dependent on "general area".

Also both Samus/Peach have one glaring weakness, low KO power. Their floatiness and lack of flexibility in their projectiles don't make thm so great against fast chars, especially when some of them can just run under them.

As for weaknesses, they do both have that issue, but in neither case is it anywhere near as glaring as Link's legendarily poor recovery.

They both have some strong KO moves as well, Peach's up-smash kills at 80 when it's sweetspotted. Samus, does less well with kills, but still has for example, her bair. I grant you it's an issue, but it's not as bad as Link's recovery issue.

Not SO great (well at least in Peach's case), but notice the hint "can't do anything". Both of them have effective options to disrupt fast characters. Peach has a couple of fast effective attacks she can use (such as her nair), whereas certain Samus projectiles are extremely effective at disrupting a fast character's game, specifically morph ball bombs and home missiles. Granted this doesn't work against all fast characters, but speed isn't the deciding factor there.

Again, I point to the fact that neither is at a match-up disadvantage against sonic (and samus is at an advantage).

And Peach's turnips do work against slower chars. Like you said it disrupts them.

I never said it didn't work against slower characters. I said it's not as effective a camping projectile as say, what Samus has. It's more a disruption tool once they show something, to be used at opportune times as opposed to something you can continuously use with no repercussions, because they're slow and easy to catch.

Anyways, I think that the most important characteristic to look at is: ''can prevent ppl from camping''

But even that sentence is kinda ambiguous because we can't really tell what kind of camping it is. Some ppl only consider camping as runaway projectile spamming, while some others think about the whole non-agressive wait for opening kind of playstyle.

It's not a question of "which do they mean", they're both camping, so you need a character that stops both, in other words, out projectiles most projectile users or has some strong defense against them, and forces a non-aggressive opponent to approach.

 

[Talek]

It's Zelda, Jigglypuff, or Wolf. I can't see it being anyone else.

Edit: Meh maybe it is Link I dunno.

Wolf was already one of the characters that they discussed so it can't be him.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Sounds like Ice Climbers.