Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[SamuraiPanda]

Ness/For those of you who don't know, the Smash Back Room is a private room that allows entry only to the intelligent few in the community who have proven their skill, dedication, and/or knowledge in Smash over the years. The SBR is most notorious for the creation of the official tier lists every year that are still the subject of alot of debate. But the SBR is actually much more than just a room that creates tier lists. We discuss all sorts of things varying from items/smashballs, tournament legality of stages, what rules to use as the standard for the largest tournaments, and of course, which characters are the best.

In the SBR the most active thread was entitled "Brawl Tiers". Yes, we're discussing tiers already. Does that mean a tier list is coming out soon? Absolutely not. Wait a year before asking when it will come out. But having a single thread to discuss 35 characters seemed like a bit much, so a few people in the SBR had a great idea.

The SBR is going to run a bit of an experiment. We will create a new thread every week to discuss a single character. The order is simply whoever we feel like talking about that week (although its usually Overswarm picking what character we talk about every week). And to expand on the idea, we decided to include all of you out there too. Roughly every week we will move that thread into the respective character's board so you all can see our thoughts and continue our discussions for us. And every time we move a thread, this thread will be updated with a summary of our thoughts, as well as a link to the thread. Keep in mind that this is just an experiment for now, we have no idea how it will evolve if it continues down the line.

Please Note: This is NOT in any particular order, and especially not a tier list.


Note that this thread is NOT used to discuss specific characters, please post your opinions and analysis of them into the threads linked below their names. The purpose for this thread is for discussion of this idea in general, as well as guesses for next week's character.


Update #1: Metaknight

3/30/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=159785

Here's the general recap:

Metaknight:

Metaknight has a good aerial game, and while his ground game is fairly limited in comparison as far as variety is concerned, it too is effective. Metaknight's aerials all have little to no landing lag out of a short hop; he can even short hop double aerial at times.

His B moves are incredibly good as well, especially the tornado. It is very difficult to DI out of it, but DIing down (double stick works well) seems to sometimes work. Floaty characters work even better. The tornado goes stale quickly, so it cannot be spammed for utmost effectiveness. It can also be interrupted by a plethora of moves.

His biggest issue seems to be getting KOs, but this can be remedied by using his up+b aggressively or by simply d-smashing out of shield at opportune moments. Most good MK players don't seem to have a big problem with getting a KO, and I would expect this trend to continue.

Characters with strong vertical KO moves seem to fare well offensively against Metaknight due to his light size; high priority attacks also give MK trouble. While MK has no projectile, projectile spam doesn't work as well as against other non-projectile characters due to MK's speed.

MK also, due to the length of most of his approaching attacks, can become vulnerable if he misses. This includes his B moves. The Metaknight player, through good spacing, can nearly completely erase this disadvantage.

Metaknight's small size and speed make him difficult to approach and nigh impossible to combo effectively, so powerful throws are a wonderful way to KO him.

All in all, MK seems to have more strengths than weaknesses, and is only held back by the player controlling him.

Update #2: Wolf

4/9/08
Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162112

Synopsis....

Wolf is a character that has a lot of excellent attributes, but they don't tend to mesh as well as a Wolf main would like. The obvious and most effective strategies found so far with Wolf have been very one-dimensional, as good qualities such as range, a nice projectile, and speed, are all used in the simple strategy of "blaster until they approach".

However, Wolf does have the ability to throw out his forward air and his back air with zero lag. This gives him the ability to approach an opponent and, if he makes contact, follow it up quickly. We've already seen a few Wolf players going through shields and hitting with a back air then landing behind their opponent, so Wolf's playstyle may change in the future. An increased emphasis on aerials being used effectively would also solve the problem of Wolf not having a reliable KO move, since his f-smash and d-smash are currently used as damage dealers by most Wolf players.

Wolf's recovery also seems to be holding him back. His up+b is nigh useless, and through smash DI you can DI out of the final kick at the end; it also frequently fails to grab the edge even if you are close. His over-b is excellent for distance when it is canceled, but is still very predictable. As such, Wolf can be easily punished upon recovery and often gimped.

Wolf is very much a fun character to play, but it seems that at this point in the metagame his weaknesses outweigh his strengths. It will take a lot of patience to play Wolf well.

Update #3: Game & Watch

4/15/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4352268

Synopsis.... -
G&W has very few weaknesses, most of which are minor. He can be grabbed out of his up+b and then, like snake, will fall to his doom if you do not throw him. Unfortunately, his up+b auto sweetspots and is an attack, so this will rarely, if ever, happen. His smash attacks have a delay before coming out, but due to their insane strength and excellent IASA frames, that delay isn't really easily punished. G&W is very light, but with good DI and smart play he can often survive until 160% with ease.

He has an excellent d-throw that can be used to tech chase with another grab or smash, and even crazier is that his down+b prevents people from using projectiles aggressively against him. Three projectiles hitting that bucket make G&W have a very powerful attack, so powerful that it is never worth it to shoot a projectile if he has two in his bucket already.

G&W is an excellent character when used with proper spacing; he is so powerful he doesn't even really need to "mix it up" as much as one would expect. He just needs to space himself properly and get off one of his ridiculously powerful smashes when his opponents are at high percent.

Also, his neutral air autocancels, his dair is a spike and has a landing hitbox, his forward air can be used as a KO move, his u-air can be used to stall until the opponent gets off the stage or air dodges, both of which set them up for disaster, and his backair shield pokes and has a final hitbox at the end that prevents the attack from being punishable.

Did I mention that his d-smash is both a vertical kill move AND can send an opponent out at a downward angle away from the stage? It makes it near impossible for a tether recovery to return if they are hit by that d-smash near the edge.

Update #4: Snake

4/22/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164582

Synopsis:

Snake lives forever and his most commonly used move does over 20% when it is fresh. He has an auto-jab that can activated by simply holding A, he has a remote mine that can be placed on the edge, his neutral air can do approximately a zillion damage and can be auto-canceled, his u-air can be auto-canceled, his bair can be auto-canceled, his fair helps his recovery, his c4 helps his recovery, and his up+b has super armor. He also has one of the best approaches in the game due to his dash attack to u-smash combo, and at the same time has one of the best defensive options in the game due to being able to simply drop a grenade. On top of all of this, his u-tilt could possibly be the best move in game as far as KO power to speed ratio. On top of all of that, his f-smash grants him the ability to give an almost for-sure KO against any opponent that manages to have their shield broken.

Snake is good.

That said, Snake suffers against projectile spam and his recovery, if done poorly, can be easily gimped. Not only can he be spiked, but if someone grabs him and doesn't hit or throw him, he will not get his up+b back and then is forced to use C4 to recover; at high percents this could kill him. His C4, while useful, cannot actively be used on the stage if he hopes to recover with it later. His down-smash, a proximity mine, can be actively used against him, and while all of Snake's moves are excellent, you are practically forced to save your u-tilt, his f-tilt becomes increasingly weaker as it is the most commonly used move, and his dash attack to u-smash combo is very hard to space properly. Almost all of Snake's moves are situational, meaning that if Snake is on the defense it can put him in a sticky situation. All of his aerials have a ton of lag if they are not auto-canceled, so Snake is practically forced to air dodge when he is in the air; this makes him predictable, and thus punishable.

While Snake's game seems fairly straightforward, a smart player can get around most of his weaknesses. Snake will undoubtedly stay one of the top competitiors for a long period of time; to beat Snake you have to play patiently and aggressively, and you can't miss an opportunity to hit him out of his recovery.

Update #5: Diddy Kong

4/28/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165744

Diddy is a creative and fast opponent with multiple options for approach and recovery. His main weakness is that he can't get KOs, but with his wonderful approach it may be that he doesn't need them! Seeing as how KOs appear quite quickly against the lighter characters in the game, we may see Diddy taking out the really light and floaty characters with relative ease in the near future!

Pressure is the name of the game with this chimp. If he's giving it all he's got, you're hard pressed to find a way to slip inside his banana fortress. On the flipside, if you manage to gain control of his bananas or can stop his "flow", Diddy has a hard time getting started again. He is definitely a momentum player, so it is likely we will only see high level Diddy's do any damage at the tournament scene.

Update #6: R.O.B.

5/06/08

Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167390

ROB is awesome. He has practically everything you could ever want in a character. Unfortunately for ROB, what he has is rarely the BEST of what you could want with the exception of his recovery. So, ROB has to work a bit harder than other characters; but just because he isn't easy to play doesn't mean he isn't awesome! ROB has several weak spots, including beneath him, behind him, and anything at a 9 o'clock position (if ROB is the center of the clock) is totally safe from ROB. That means platforms really hurt him! ROB also has several good and bad matchups, and it seems that he is one of the few characters that is showing true one-sided matchups (for good or worse) already. Expect to see more ROB mainers out there in the next few months!

Update #7: Falco

5/12/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=168808

Falco is a strange character. Many of the top smashers believe he belongs in the top tier, but many others fail to see his potential. His strengths lie in his lasers, his attacks, and his amazing chaingrab.

Lasers can be used to supplement attack strategies or they can be spammed to bring the opponent to you. Although you can fire lasers from a jump, the rate of fire is greatly increased by simply firing while standing still.

Falco has a large range of power and quick attacks to choose from. His forward smash hits slightly behind and far in front, his dash cancels into an up smash, his bair is an amazing kill move, and his dair is a spike that can easily gimp other players. Utilizing these attacks along with his amazingly quick side B and lasers can make for a great offense or defense.

Falco's chaingrab is simply amazing. 30-50% on nearly every character followed by a free running up smash or dair. This chaingrab can bring even Snake and Metaknight to their knees.

Falco's mediocre range and recovery keep him from reaching the top. Characters such as Donkey Kong and G&W can out-space Falco while characters such as ROB and Pit have no troubles with Falco's laser spam or gimpy dair.

Though he has his weaknesses, a smart Falco player can overcome them easily. Falco is one of the few characters with a strong offensive and defensive game and the ability to adjust according to your opponent's style. Although his placings are only a blip on the tournament scene radar right now, he definitely has the potential to take the position as a top tier character.

Update #8: Ganondorf!

5/20/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170448

Ganon is a beast. When Brawl was first released he was considered by most to be one of the worst characters in the game. Shortly after release, however, several people discovered that a few aerials could be auto canceled with perfect timing and some of his ground moves had IASA frames. This helped Ganon's speed, but he still shines strongest in one category: power.

Ganon hits like a freakin bus full of fat people. Nearly every move is a capable killer and it only takes a few hits to get your opponent to the point of imminent doom. If you can land an auto canceled d-air and follow with an aerial you can get your opponent up to over 40% before they even touch you. Even Ganon's dash attack is a powerful kill move, destroying lighter opponents at around 80% fresh. His power combined with his far reach can catch quicker opponents off guard and send them flying. There's nothing quite like kicking Snake in the chest with a stretched out f-tilt and quietly whispering, "this is sparta" to yourself.

Although we all harp on Ganon's quickness, he isn't as slow as you'd think. His n-air comes out very fast and can catch aerial attackers off guard. His neutral jab, d-tilt, and f-tilt are all surprisingly quick and powerful. His up smash has IASA frames and can quickly cancel into a jab or a d-tilt. His real weakness lies in his running speed and the wind down on several moves. That is why only an expert can effectively wield Ganon. If you completely whiff an f-smash, a d-smash, or you fail to auto-cancel a move - you're screwed.

All in all, I'd say Ganon rules. That may sound a bit general for a summary, but we're talking about Old Man Winter here. He's certainly not top tier, but who cares? He's a badass.

Update #9: Link

5/27/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=171859

Link is a character with great strengths and some massive weaknesses. His attacks are strong and quick, he has great range, and he can build up damage quickly. He sounds like the perfect character. Unfortunately his recovery is close to, if not the worst recovery in the game.

Link's forward smash can do a full 35% with both hits. It can kill light character around 90% with ease. Down smash is very quick as well and fresh it can kill many characters before 100%. His quick neutral jab combo is great for building up damage and keeping the opponent spaced. His aerials are powerful, quick, and 3 of the 5 have hardly any or no landing lag. His zair is the second best in the game and it comes out instantly with great range and 0 landing lag.

Link's dair is an amazing move. It seems to have the highest possible priority, it can kill lighter characters around 60%, and it stays out for a long time. It can be used as a meaty attack to destroy opponent hopping from the ledge, jumping from the ledge, rolling onto the ledge, etc. It can be used to keep tether users from reaching the stage. You can even jump off the stage with a flying dair to keep them from coming back (don't try it against ROB!).

Although his projectile game isn't as great as it used to be, it's still good. The boomerang has unique characteristics now that allow it to be used as an offensive projectile, a defensive projectile, or an edgeguarding technique. The bombs can be thrown far and quick, allowing you to edgeguard opponents, keep offensive players at bay, or guarantee your safe recovery. Link is able to cancel the beginning animation of the arrow shot by jumping and shooting just before you land.

Unfortunately, Link has a massive, glaring weakness: his recovery. He is one of the fastest fallers in the Smash series and this works for him and against him. It allows him to execute quick aerials, but it also causes him to fall extremely fast and often to a quick death. Characters like ROB are very very tough matchups for Link because even though Link is fairly heavy, ROB can knock Link off the stage at a mid range percentage and finish him off with an easy edgeguard. His recovery is helped slightly by his tether, throwing projectiles at the edgeguarding opponent, and his high priority up B, but he's still too easy to pick off for space animals.

You have to wonder if Sakurai has some kind of burning hatred for Link. He gives him some of the best characteristics in the game, then severely gimps him with a horrible recovery. There aren't many Link players right now due to the high amount of technical skill required and his recovery, but maybe there will be a Link fever in a few years similar to the one in the Melee years.

Update #10: King DeDeDe

6/5/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174024

Dedede is a character that demonstrates the significance of match ups in Brawl. He can do so well against many of the top tier characters, but you can find counters for him all across the tier list.

DDD's physics are part of what makes him so great. He is very heavy and hard to kill with good DI. He is also one of the fastest fallers in the game, which combined with his multiple jumps makes for an amazing ability to edgeguard.

His throws make up a strong part of his game. Down throw is an amazing chaingrab on over half the cast and an infinite on five characters. Down throw will also set DDD up for a follow up, often an f-tilt or an unexpected dash attack. His back throw does a massive 16% damage as well.

DDD has a strange combination of moves. His smashes are so slow that they seem impossible to use at first. You quickly learn, however, that they have deceiving range and are quite hard to punish. Long range moves like his f-tilt, dair, and uair are great for racking up damage. Others like his bair, fair, dtilt, are surprisingly quick and very powerful. His utilt can kill light characters very easily and it is quicker than his up smash.

His recovery has its ups and downs (no pun intended). It is quick and travels far, allowing DDD to make it back from nearly any hit. On the other hand, it has a set trajectory until you cancel it and it is punishable by many characters.

To paraphrase G-reg:

"DDD is strong, he has great kill moves, he lives forever, he has great aerials, he has ridiculous throws and chaingrabs, and a good recovery.

Considering that some characters don't even have a single one of those qualities, I'd put DDD at top tier along with Snake and MK."

And one more thing: Carlos Mencia is a terrible comedian.

Update #11: Toon Link

6/15/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176308

Toon Link is a character that can be played either offensively or defensively at high level play. This is unique, as most characters tend to do better playing one way or the other. Despite this ability, Toon Link is generally best played defensively in that he shouldn't approach without an opening. Fortunately for TLink, he can create openings; this, too, is something rare.

Toon Link's projectile spam is some of the best in the game and, once started, is very difficult to get through. This allows him to keep the pressure on the opponent while not putting himself in danger! Because you are forcing your opponent to approach you can decide when and where and how your opponent will attack and, because of this ability, can know in advance what your opponent will do. This allows you attack strategically and safely.

Unfortuantely for Toon Link, despite his strong aerial game, good smashes, and good specials and recovery, he has difficulty KOing and creating setups. Most of his best techniques, such as bomb to aerial combos, bair to dair combos, repeated bair combos, etc., etc. are not only hard to pull off, but are generally only for damage! The most common KOing combo you hear about is the bair to dair, and this is incredibly dangerous. Toon Link's KO potential isn't held back by the strength of his moves, but by his in ability to set them up as well. It is night impossible to combo into Toon Link's u-air, u-smash, or f-smash, and these are 3 of his best kill moves. This often leaves Toon Link frustrated as he has to drastically change his playstyle to get a KO by abandoning his projectile game.

Most good Toon Link players simply solve this problem by continually racking up damage until you can combo into a forward air or catch them out of an air dodge or laggy aerial with a u-air or u-smash/f-smash, but this strategy simply exacerbates Toon Link's light weight. It's bad enough when you have to deal an extra 30-80% to KO your opponent simply because you are light and they are heavy, but when you are light, unable to combo into KO moves, and have to patiently wait for the opportunity rather than create it to play safely.... this puts Toon Link in a bad position.

Toon Link's potential is very high, the surface of which has barely been scratched. It is inevitable that a smart player will pick up Toon Link and overcome his very basic inherent weaknesses and simply use his strengths in such a way that Toon Link will become a very big threat.

Update #12: Zelda

6/30/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179238

Zelda has a plethora of useful knockout moves, many of which that deal good damage. Add to this an incredible projectile and a decent reflector and you've got a pretty good character in terms of offense. Because of Din's Fire, she doesn't even really need to approach very often or take risks to edgeguard. She can just sit back and spam her fireball all day until she approves of the distance between her and her opponent.

Unfortunately for Zelda, landing the moves are a bit of a different story. All of her aerials are telegraphed way in advance; if Zelda is below you, expect u-air. If she is to the side, expect a fair or bair. If you are below, expect a nair or dair. All of them require precise spacing, making it very difficult to land on smaller characters controlled by smart opponents. Her smashes don't require as much spacing or timing to pull off, but while she can use her f-smash and u-smash in many situations, the ability to DI out of the final "hit" of these attacks makes them considerably less useful than her d-smash. Her d-smash sends opponents out at a crazy angle, comes out quickly and hits all around her making this arguably her best knockout move. Her tilts, while effective and powerful, come out at about the same speed as her smashes; this makes them less useful.

Zelda's recovery also limits her survivability. While there is a small hitbox when she lands, the inability to recover at odd angles makes her easy to edgeguard if she is put in a bad position. The lag afterwards, while slight, is enough to allow an opponent to attack you; since Zelda's aerials are difficult to land effectively in situations where Zelda isn't controlling her spacing, this makes it difficult for Zelda to get back to the stage from above.

Zelda is a powerful character, but a precise one; because she requires so much in her favor, it is difficult to keep yourself in a good position the entire time. Through patience and smart aggression, Zelda's opponents can keep her in trouble long enough, and it is unlikely that any but the best Zelda's will be able to deal with this pressure.

Update #13: Samus

7/08/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181286

Summary:


Samus is a unique character with a lot of depth. She is much more difficult to use than the majority of characters in this game, and as such has a much harder time in tournament play. Consistency troubles aside, she is a solid character that is held above water by her natural strengths: a heavy weight, good air mobility, a strong aerial game, a strong combo game, an excellent recovery, and a good projectile game.

While Samus excels in many areas, she lacks in killing power. Many of her kill moves are slow to come out, require charging, or are very easy to see coming; it isn't often that you see a Samus player hop towards you with her back facing you, and when she does you know a bair is coming.

It is likely that Samus' issue of killing power will become less prominent over time; her aerials all auto-cancel, allowing her to short hop an aerial into an opponent, land, and then immediately f-smash or d-tilt to attempt a KO. She also has a great setup from her grab release to do large amounts of damage or potentially get off a KO move.

Samus also has the ability to turn into Zamus mid-game by using the d-pad; while this will more than likely not be a prominent feature to her gameplay, it is possible that Samus could switch into ZSS to use the items as KO capable attacks late in the game.

Update #14: Captain Falcon

7/14/08
Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182495
Summary:

Click the picture


Update #15: Pikachu

7/21/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183942

Pikachu is a highly mobile character with a near infalliable approach due to his low lag aerials and Quick Attack Cancel. This makes him one of the best "anti-camp" characters in the game. Even his neutral B follows the edge, preventing any form of ledge camping! His TWO chain throws give him the ability to add a lot of damage to characters like Snake and Fox, and his ability to gimp with Thunder off of a simple mistake is amazingly effective. His recovery is unmatched in speed and saftey, and all of his smashes are useful.

Pikachu is a well rounded character with several good matchups and very few bad matchups; the only disadvantage this character has is that he is more difficult to pick up than some of the more straight-forward characters. However, this also acts as a boon to the rodent because very few opponents will have serious pikachu practice.

Update #16: Marth

7/29/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185489

Synopsis:

Marth has a similar feel to Melee, but almost a completely different flow. His moves are all powerful, especially when tippered, and it seems that Marth has an answer in most situations. Despite this, Marth's poor recovery and lack of range when compared to most of the other characters at tournament level play can often lead to him having to work twice as hard as other high level characters. This puts him at a disadvantage at low level play. However, his strengths are all solid and his weaknesses are fairly shallow, which leads him to being a strong character choice for veteran smashers. With the ability to get absurdly low % KOs with tippered attacks, several attacks and setups out of shield, and his over-b combo attack giving him an easy and safe damage dealer, Marth is not a character to be taken lightly.

Update #17: Bowser

8/04/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186769

Bowser is a character of extremes. He basically runs hot and cold. His advantages, such as his heavy weight, excellent out of shield options, grab release options, and his multitude of KO moves, are all very prominent. Unfortunately, his weaknesses, his large size (making him easy to combo and hit), laggy attacks, lack of options in many circumstances, and poor vertical recovery are just as obvious.

Bowser will never be the powerhouse that a player can simply pick up and destroy the opposition with, but if a player dedicates himself to this character and gets around his weaknesses it is highly likely that they can make significant marks on the tournament scene. The fact that Bowser has so many obvious weaknesses may actually be a boon to him; there are few serious Bowser mains in existence, so if you happen to run up against one you are unlikely to have experience fighting them... while they will almost certainly have experience fighting your character.

Update #18: Kirby

8/11/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188142

Kirby's moveset works well for him in practically every way save for approaching the opponent. When approaching, Kirby can become predictable and vulnerable as a result. On defense though, Kirby's well spaced aerials and grabs he can actually combo out of (!!!!) make him a danger to approach. Kirby's recovery is boosted tremendously by his over-b and his down+b can be used from time to time to allow him quick and safe passage to the stage.

Kirby has a few weaknesses, such as his limited approach and light weight, but these weaknesses are all supressed at high level play and as such leave Kirby many options open. Kirby will undoubtedly be a dangerous character to play against and a hard character to play as, making him one of the few characters that will be consistently surprising their opponents.

Update #19: Mewtwo

8/20/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190076

Synopsis:

Lucario is a character with all the answers. Under a strong player, his blatant weaknesses can be seen as obstacles to overcome rather than obstacles that prevent him from succeeding. With his great range, priority, speed and (when at high %) power, this character can go toe to toe with any character in the game as long as he can prevent himself from dying early. Lucario is the very definition of "clutch"; when you are down 3 stocks to 1, it is very possible to make a comeback if you just land a few good hits. Add to that a spammable and chargeable projectile with the possibility to KO and you've got yourself a good character. His learning curve will prevent him from flooding the tournament scene, but he will always be a force to be wary of.

Update #21: Pit

8/26/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191006

With a few glaring weaknesses and nothing incredibly power to compensate, Pit becomes a character of averages. His recovery is great distance-wise, but when put into actual gameplay it is nothing especially of note; he can generally get back just as well as other characters in the game. His attacks, while good, aren't especially impressive. His specials, while annoying and unique, don't send him to the top. He doesn't even have that many matchups that seem to be incredibly in his favor!

It is true that Pit has a few things slightly above average, like the damage of his relatively quick forward-smash, the power of his bair, the excellent positioning created by all his throws, his edgeguarding tricks with his down+b, or the power and priority of his glide attack. However, these things have yet to be used effectively enough by a Pit player to show that Pit can be as dangerous as other characters.

It is extremely possible that a Pit player could learn to use arrows to position his opponent into a certain area when recovering so that Pit can edgeguard for the KO with his down+b or a gutsy Pit player could start getting his KOs by glide attacking while his opponent is attempting to recover, but for now Pit's game has become stagnant and filled primarily with gimmicky ATs such as arrow looping or wingdashing that have yet to really propel Pit's metagame. A push back to basics is primarily what this character needs to compete with the other characters that are filling the upper echelons.

Update #22: Yoshi

9/01/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192005

At first look he's awful, then he's great, and then he's just mediocre.

Yoshi has a few things in several matchups that make him not worthless. He has a few strengths that can REALLY surprise you. How many people have played against a Yoshi only to find themselves take an easy 40% from them spamming eggs? How many have been pivot grabbed by a Yoshi when they dashed to prevent them from throwing eggs? How many have been killed by a uair at surprisingly low %?

Unfortunately for Yoshi, these strengths don't make up for his weaknesses. His shield is ridiculously bad; while it can't be shield poked... you can just wait the moment Yoshi shields and then capitalize. Yoshi's recovery, while good as far as distance is concerned, can be less than adequate; turning off tap jump and using eggs first slightly alleviates this problem, but Yoshi is one of those characters that ends up getting tossed off the side of the stage a lot.

One of Yoshi's biggest issues is that there is rarely a time where he is at an advantage. On the ground? In the air? Recovering? Edgeguarding? He is just sub-par in all these areas when the opponent is on equal footing.

Yoshi will be a great surprise character and a smart player can get some early KOs with him to make him viable... but on the whole, he won't be too amazing.

Update #23: Ice Climbers

9/08/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193142

Synopsis:

One of the most exciting characters in the game, people often look to the future rather than the present with this character. The Ice Climbers are dripping with such potential that it is almost inevitable that someone is going to appear out of thin air and rock the tournament scene. The Ice Climbers have a lot of issues, most of them nana related, but their high damaging attacks, high priority smashes, and their wonderful, wonderful grab game really sets them at a unique position in any matchup. Ice Climbers change the rules of the game in a way no other character does. Even though they have such a good grab game, their best advantage yet may be that no one ever plays them! Matchup inexperience + 0-death grabs = ICs being terrifying.

infzy sucks for figuring out the hint way too fast :/


Update #24: Sheik

9/15/08
Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=194295

Synopsis:

Sheik's weaknesses and strengths are as clear as day, especially when you realize that they are practically the opposite of Zelda's. She is a combo machine at low % and can get some crazy gimps too, making her very frustrating to play against at low %. Unfortuantely for Sheik, her only realible KO move is her upsmash and that is difficult to land! Sheik's down+b solves this problem to a certain extent, but the fact that Sheik can't make it on her own means this is a problem for her for sure!

Sheik's needles are an interesting projectile and can be used as a great damage builder, and with her over-b glitch she can get some crazy good priority with her chain (although it isn't entirely practical in most cases). Her recovery isn't spectacular, but it isn't awful either.

Sheik, as a solo character, isn't that great. Depending on the user's ability to switch effectively and then get a KO, she can be a well-rounded character that can have an excellent balance of offense and defense.

Update #25: Donkey Kong

9/22/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195386

Synopsis:

DK has a great shield pressure game, a great combo game, great pressure game, great power, and can punish a single mistake severely. He's also insanely heavy.

Unfortunately, DK has a bad shield, can be comboed well, has trouble keeping up with pressure, can be gimped by several characters, and a lot of stronger attacks have lag that can get him punished severely.

DK is a character that runs hot and cold; he's either on fire and destroying, or he's getting tossed around like a ragdoll. Even the worst DK players can even the score with an f-smash or u-smash thrown out at the right times, so we know that DK players have potential... but the potential lies in being able to keep the momentum in DKs favor. If you can keep DK's opponent on edge until you find an opportunity to d-smash OOS or get a neutral-B in (if you can read their approach, just do it through their attack!), DK is a great choice for you.

DK has some nigh unwinnable matchups though, so he is almost completely limited to players that are willing to play more than one character. D3's ability to infinite grab him, Marth's ability to edgeguard with his dair (heck, anyone with a spike, really), MKs ability to keep the pressure up and edgeguard.... all make playing DK an uphill battle. Fortunately for DK, he can still dish it out against these characters; if you can read your opponent well and find that one mistake, DK can punish it better than anyone else in the game.

Update #26: Olimar

9/29/08
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196520

Synopsis

Olimar is a character that is rare enough and strong enough to be a wild card in any tournament. Unfortunately for Olimar, his recovery is such a glaring weakness that everyone knows it right from the getgo whether they play against Olimar or not!

Despite this, Olimar can do incredibly well in certain matchups. He also gets destroyed just as easily in other matchups. This makes Olimar a poor choice for a solo character, but an EXCELLENT choice with a pair. Olimar's fluidity and ability to make the opponent approach makes Olimar an easy character to pick up but, due to Olimar's glaring weaknesses and incredible amount of variables, he is a difficult character to master.

Olimar's super armor from his down+b helps him tremendously upon returning to the stage, and Olimar's ability to kill with a plethora of moves in a variety of directions means Olimar is dangerous at all times. No worrying about stale moves with this guy!

Last but not least, Olimar is difficult to observe. His forward smash, down-smash, and grab, can all look eerily similar. This makes it difficult for an opponetn to consistently avoid Olimar's attacks! It becomes even more difficult when the timing and range changes depending on the pikmin available. Oli players will be able to use this to their advantage for quite some time, and it is a real advantage indeed.

Update #27: Luigi

10/06/08
Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5558327

Synopsis:


Luigi, like a few other rare characters, runs hot and cold. When he's doing well, he's doing WELL. Incredibly amazing KO potential with his crazy up+b (so much better than rest) that can be done out of a jab combo if your opponent doesn't DI, great combo potential, the ability to approach with one aerial and retreat with another all in the same jump, the ability to shield an attack then slide far away to prevent shield pressure... these all help him. On the flipside, his poor recovery (edgeguarding-wise, not distance-wise), his poor OOS options, and his predictability all hurt him.

Luigi is a character that can be "mastered" very easily in terms of offensive capability. Defensively is a whole other matter and is what will really set apart the good Luigi's from the bad. Even the worst Luigi's will get a jab to up+b off from time to him, or perhaps edgeguard with a series of bairs. Simple things like finding out how strong his f-smash is can make the worst Luigi player dangerous... but unfortunately, this merely clouds the waters. The best Luigi players will be the ones that always get back to the stage and have found ways to reliably approach and to create openings rather than capitalize on enemy mistakes.

Update #28: Zero Suit Samus

10/13/08
Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199064

Synopsis:


ZSS is a character with a horrible and predictable aerial approach, a horrible grab, and very poor OOS options. Despite this, ZSS does very well when she has her opponent in a poor position; ZSS takes a lot of thinking to play, but if you can get your opponent where you want them it all pays off. Her most common kill move, her over-b, is also one of her safer and most commonly used attacking moves. This is bad, as it continually is diminished. The good news is that this attack often puts your opponent in a poor position! If you can capitalize on this, theoretically the over-b should never go stale.

It's also important to note that ZSS recovery, while tether-based, isn't that bad. She can be gimped incredibly easy if her player doesn't know what they are doing, but in the hands of a ZSS veteran she has enough options to continually be one step ahead of the opposition.

Her jab also comes out ridiculously fast. This makes it the best "OMG OMG OMG OMG GO AWAY" move in the world. When in doubt, jab once or twice then run away.

Update #29: Peach

10/20/08

Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200587

Synopsis:

Lame, then scary, then mediocre.

Peach is a decent character that will be forever one-upped by the higher tiers. Most of her good stuff is only good if your opponent doesn't SDI properly or is just plain not used to what you do. This said, the number of Peach players is low; it is likely this will generally be in your favor as a Peach player. Peach plays vastly different than most other characters in the game, but appears to be similar; she often is as confusing as playing the Ice Climbers, though your opponent won't think of it that way.

Peach is an excellent pocket character for those that have fallen in love with her. She is a wild card of the utmost degree whose gameplay focuses on using the tried-and-true tactics of good spacing, feints, and shield pressure that can be a frustrating experience for an opponent that just wants to rush in blindly.

Update #30: Sonic the Hedgehog

10/27/08
Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202190

Synopsis:

While Sonic counters Inui, past that he does little else that someone doesn't do better. Sonic is a very fun character to play and has many unique attributes that certainly change the matchup, but these do not overcome his blatant weaknesses. As fast as Sonic's dash may be, his aerial mobility is not up to par and as such his moves are often telegraphed far in advance. This makes it difficult to land aerials on an opponent for a KO, forcing you to use his f-smash as his main KO move. While Sonic is a lot of fun, he isn't that great; he will more than likely be a character that will bring about the occasional surprise in tournaments but will rarely reach the upper levels.

Update #31: Mario

11/4/08
Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5805725

Synopsis:

Mario is a character with a ton of potential. Where this potential will lead, no one is quite sure; what is for certain is that he has a unique gimping game when you combine his bair, fair, cape, and FLUDD. Mario definitely has a good matchup against several of the characters in the cast, but unfortunately most of his strengths are outshined by other characters. Mario is a character that will more than likely be obscure in the smash tournament scene for quite some time because whenever anyone has a problem, Mario will be a second best solution. Despite this, Mario's rarity will allow those who have fallen in love with the portly plumber to do better in tournament simply due to the matchup inexperience their opponents have.

Past his gimping game, Mario doesn't have much save for a few combos out of throws (good!) that can be easily DI'ed out of if the player uses his jumps and air dodge correctly (bad!). Mario will more than likely stay middle tier at highest, but if a few Mario mains out there can show that he will do amazing against certain top tiers via his edgeguarding game it is almost certain that Mario numbers will increase.

Update #32: Ike

11/17/08
Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205781

Synopsis:

Ike has more than enough going for him to allow a good player to use him well, and most of his weaknesses can be removed by simply picking the correct stage, so he'll always be a good counterpick character.

Unfortunately, Ike has a few really hard matchups and really has difficulty with recovering against the majority of the cast on even the neutrals. This really makes it difficult for Ike to win a set on his own... so remember, Ike fights for his friends. He doesn't go it alone. Pick up Ike along with someone else and you'll have a unique pocket character that you can throw out from time to time.

His excellent KO potential and decent damage racking abilities really allow a good player to capitalize well, and he has several tricks (such as using neutral B by the ledge, reverse up+bing to recover, tech chasing with over+b, using up+B to hit someone after they are knocked in the air, etc., etc.) that good players can throw out against the unsuspecting opponent. But as fun as he is, Ike isn't good enough to do it alone.

Update #33: Pokemon Trainer

11/25/08
Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207163

Synopsis:

Pokémon trainer is cooooooooooool. He's also fun!!!.... and not very good competitively. The lackluster recovery of all three pokémon make their stocks disappear incredibly fast against a watchful opponent. PT's damage racking potential is through the roof, and he DOES have some good KO options, but many of them (especially with Ivysaur!) are situational. PT was originally thought to be a character that had no counterpicks because you could switch to a different character throughout the match, but we have seen that there are a number of characters that do well against all three... and more importantly, even if one of the pokémon can do well against a character it doesn't mean that will make up for the poor performance of the other two!

Despite all his drawbacks, PT would be considered a decent character. He has enough mix-ups and options in his gameplay that a smart player can really take him to a new level. For what he lacks, he makes up for in other areas for each of the pokémon. Squirtle can't take much abuse and can be gimped if he's not careful, but he's got a great in-and-out style of attack that is similar to Wario and Jiggs. Ivysaur has one of the worst recoveries in the game, but has bullet seed that adds enough damage in one or two volleys to make his opponent's life as short as Ivysaur's. Charizard is a big target and moves slow in the air, but he moves incredibly fast on the ground and has a great grab game.

What really holds them back is the time limit. The longer PT is out, the weaker the PT's pokémon of choice gets. That means if I'm facing a squirtle and I'm at high %, I can easily camp him out on the ledge or by simply hitting him away and running. Once he gets tired, his once powerful u-smash KO is no longer worth how difficult it is to land. The worst part is once you hit down+b, the opponent gets a free hit on you.... often a fully charged smash!

If a PT player comes along that is really innovative and uses all the options and is able to solve the crisis of fatigue, we could see PT doing some damage. Until then, it's not going to just be the top tiers that are going to hurt him.

Update #34: Fox

12/16/08
Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211021

Synopsis:

Fox can dish it out, but he can't take it. Fox is a character that is very certainly a threat, but his defensive options are poor when compared to other characters. The ability to be edgeguarded easily is a bad thing, and when you edgeguard him exactly like you've done in Melee for the past decade you've already got all the practice in the world so it is unlikely you'll have difficulty adapting.

His combos, while not guaranteed, are excellent, powerful, and can be used often. His shine can be used to stall for timing purposes, greatly hurting an opponent's chance at any sort of juggling game. Fox can force approaches with his laser, even on other projectile characters due to his shine, and because of this has a natural advantage that many characters do not have.

Despite his horrible matchups, this character's offensive potential makes him a viable character. The ability to use his u-smash, an easy smash to land in comparison to many KO moves in this game, to get KOs at early % against even the strongest in this game is a boon that not many can argue against.

Update #35: Wario

4/03/08
Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228681
Summary:

Summary Pending

Update #36: Jigglypuff

4/27/08
Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231769
Summary:

Summary Pending

Update #37/38: Ness/Lucas

4/27/08

Ness Thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=232808

Lucas Thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=232809

Too lazy to do summaries.

 

[RDK]

Very important to remember. And yes, this is a Panda edit :D

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Hmmmm, I think the only thing that keeps Metaknight TOP is his bad matchups, notably versus characters with lots of range and power. Marth, Ike, Zamus... they all seem to be able to play a good game of keep away with superior range.

However, I'd still place him in the high tier, just because he wrecks so much of the cast. He's amongst the few who can approach in a defensive game, has excellent options to punish plays, and is very mobile. I expect to see a TON of Metaknights in the next few months.

 

[MyRevenge.]

Great idea by the SBR, can't wait for some of my characters to show up :D

 

[S2]

I think your supposed to post character thoughts in the linked thread, since this one will be changing each week as the character changes.

Anyway, great idea SamuraiPanda.

This is a good way for intelligent non-SBR members to see what you guys are talking about. Maybe comment or ask questions where better players can help explain something.

Since the original topics come from the SBR and not the character board itself, the discussion is probably going to be a little more open. My impression is that most character boards are a little jaded towards their given character (obviously). So this should be a good insight into the thoughts about each characters advantages/disadvantages from players who don't all have the same main.

 

[Chrono Centaur]

Meta Knight is a very good character, but his problem is really range. Any Snake player can easily keep him out of range, using a combination of grenades/c4/rockets, and if he gets close they can just use tilts to knock him back. Also, I think you need to control the battle with him; on a defensive game, he can't play to the same level as Dedede or Bowser or, again, Snake can.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Metaknight's problems seem to be his range, lack of good KO options, and no projectile. His benefits seem to more than make up for that, giving him way more good matchups than bad ones.

 

[mugwhump]

Awesome thread idea, always thought it would be nice for everyone to see what's in the SBR even if they can't post there.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

obviously no real disagreements here. So I suppose that might reinforce that metaknight plays much the same at a mid-high level of competence as he does for a a professional level.

comments:
-he's good but not broken.
-he clearly has some counters. I'd say link due to having both longer reach AND projectiles, but link vs. metaknight off the edge just ends BAD for link.

 

[behemoth]

Just want to throw in there:

I don't really use MK too much, but from my forays into maining the random button, I have to say, his vanish cape move is a great mixup for dash approaches, as it can stop a shield-grabber in their tracks.

And I think that approach mixups are a hugely important strength in a brawl character.

Just my .02

 

[barnes]

i really like how he can fly and has range, also him being very fast with his slshes makes him a prooty good char

 

[Atmapalazzo]

I'd say that hits MK on the spot, but one weakness I've noticed is his inability to get near some characters who either have a lot of super armor or fairly quick and powerful tilts (like Snake or Ike perhaps?)

Maybe it's just me.

 

[M.K]

Meta-Knight can control an opponent through Mach Tornado, and less through Drill Rush. Like it has been stated before, his lack of killing power makes up for his recovery/rack up damage/aerial game.

 

[aids514]

Mk is destined for top tier. Despite the lack of killing power, how can you deny his amazing reocvery and near unbeatable air game? His speed assures that no one will be able to (effectively) projectile camp as well.

Further, he is the owner of the unduisputable best taunt it the game. "Fight me!" Epic.

 

[Andrew Ott]

From my experience I'd say Meta's range is one of his main obstacles; it's short yet his attacks are like lightning. Given that Brawl's combo system is less effective, it looks like his game will focus on more of a rushdown (kind of like a constant tech chase?) kind of gameplay. This'll take some time to develop though, I think it will hinge on learning how to move from attack to attack as quickly as possible, with accuracy and prediction to make up for range. Killing potential seems to lie with low-angle, off the edge moves. Downsmash, bair and dair edgeguards. His recovery is awkward because it's kind of predictable and floaty, but he can use his large amount of airtime and lightning aerials to keep most people off. May have trouble with people like Ike because they come in fast from directly below, sword first.

He definitely needs to keep moving constantly, grab on about 30% of approaches, SH fair, dash attack on others. D-tilt as poker and retreating defense, up-B out of shield (at low percents can pressure, not combo, into glide attack, which is fairly strong and almost instant. Mindgames), nair to dash upsmash at low %, dimension cape as lag punisher, projectile avoider (not sure about this, it has lots of ending lag, small hitbox...)? I don't personally like his specials too much as they rush you headlong into stuff without an option out, and do weak hit damage that deteriorates like... alot. Roll kills them really. F-tilt is better than neutral A I think, uptilt better than upsmash MOST of the time, unless opponent is right in front of you rather than above. Upsmash is a combo move at low %, combo starter (up air into up-b?) at higher.

He's kinda flimsy feeling, haha.

 

[Uncle Fitzy]

Great idea guys. Anyways I would argue against his weakness to vertical attacks. Specifically in the case of spikes if the MK user sees it coming his UpB can not only get you out of the sticky situation but can backfire their KO and kill them instead.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I find this profile spot on.


Meta's gonna be Top of the High Tier or Bottom of the Top. He has so many strengths that the weaknesses seem miniscule.

 

[Chrono Centaur]

I find this profile spot on.


Meta's gonna be Top of the High Tier or Bottom of the Top. He has so many strengths that the weaknesses seem miniscule.

I don't think that's the right way to put it. His range is a big problem, and again, he's too focused on offense to provide a good defense. Matched up with a lot of characters (Wolf/Lucas/TL) who have good moves plus a projectile, he just doesn't stand up.

Top (maybe?) of the middle-high tier, or middle of middle-high tier, is more like it.

 

[Blackadder]

Hmmmm.


*subs without a word*

 

[KevinM]

I don't think Meta's range is to big of a problem, his Tilts give him more then enough good options for poking an opponent. Spacing is actually extremely easy with Metaknight.

 

[Ulevo]

This may sound redundant, but Meta Knight shines best in the hands of a good player, despite him being very spammable. The main weakness he carries is the decay to his KO moves, which consist of (to my knowledge) Nair, Up B, FSmash, and DSmash. There may be some I'm missing. He also has a disadvantage against opponents with effective projectiles.

However this is off set with his small size and fast movements. Decay is also no issue if the player knows how to play Meta well, and save his KO moves. Meta Knights game is all about staying on top of and in close range to your opponent as much as possible, keeping the distance close. This would require good tech chase game and prediction of DI. If the player can't keep close distances, particularly if the opposing side has longer reach, Meta Knight will have troubles.

Overall, Meta Knight is a fantastic contender. You just need to think 'white on rice' while fighting with him, and you're good to go.

On another note, I think this is a great idea SamuraiPanda. This will give some insight to how the Tier list may be coming along, and more ideas are usually a good thing.

 

[Bobesco]

metaknight vs snake... no chance for metaknight, the projectil of snake is too good vs metaknight, and he kills very fast metaknight.

 

[lismore]

Nice idea SamuraiPanda, I've always been interested in the tier discussion that goes on in the BR.

I reckon MK, whether considered just mid-high tier right now, will end up being one of the best characters in the game (in the right hands of course). This is based more on observation of others as I barely play him but my doubles partner's looking to main him atm and I'm certainly not discouraging him

I'm looking forward to some of my own mains and secondaries coming up in this thread so I can contribute more usefully to the discussion and see whether I'd be advised to make some changes (but with Marth, Olimar and Sheik as my mains, that's looking unlikely)!

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

metaknight vs snake... no chance for metaknight, the projectil of snake is too good vs metaknight, and he kills very fast metaknight.

I'm gonna have to disagree with that.


Sure the Landmines's C4 is gonna limit MK's Movement, but Nades are not hard to dodge/shield. The Problem may be the Nikita if MK's knocked off the stage.

Sure Snake would have an advantage, but MK can still win, easily.

 

[Card]

Meta Knight may have some flaws, but his range is definitely not one of them. Right out of the box it was easy to see and safe to assume how Meta Knight was clearly one of the better characters in the game. At times you start to wonder if Sakurai was a little biased when it came to coming up with a design for Meta Knight, since after all this might be his last Smash title, and Meta Knight is his creation.

Putting thoughts aside, one of Meta Knights major positive points is the insane speed at which nearly all his attacks share. Most of his attacks come out on the first few frames, and end with nearly no lag what so ever. This includes almost all of his major killing moves! Another obvious advantage to this is that, combining speed with the range of his tilts, Meta Knight is one of the few characters in the game who can actually "Poke" in this game. What's strange about this is that Poking has never really been a incredibly viable strategy to perform in the Smash Bros series... since it has become so easy to counter most poke attempts. Yet with all the defensive options which have been made available for the person who is Shielding, Meta Knight is the few characters who can literally poke an opponents shield with a repeated series of tilts and cannot be punished for it. This alone makes Meta Knights ground game extremely efficient. Conveniently Meta Knights F-Tilt actually pops the opponent up into the air, which is Meta Knights domain.

Another really strong point about Meta Knight is his short stature. While this may contribute towards Meta Knight being put into the light weight category, you cannot help but notice how this benefits him as well. Approaching a grounded Meta Knight from the air becomes a much more difficult task, simply because of the lack of Auto-Canceling on certain moves. What it really comes down to in terms of an actual weakness for Meta Knight though is his light weight, which contributes to his weakness to Vertical K.O moves. On the up side to this though, this allows him to DI away safely towards almost all "Combo Attempts" because of his light weight, and since he has arguably one of the best recoveries in the game, Meta Knight laughs at any attempt to knock him off the stage.

I also fail to see what people are talking about when they say "Metaknight has a lack of K.O moves" when I really just don't see it. Meta Knight's down-smash is by far one of the fastest Smash attacks in the game. It comes out incredibly quick, has almost no lag, and is powerful, making it a very effective killing move. His Up+B has a very 'useful' trajectory, in that it's a very easy move to land. It often can be used after his series up U-airs, to punish any aerial attacks, or after throwing. His N-air is also a very effective killing aerial, which is seemingly unpunishable. While his F-air will never actually be an effective killing move, it's so easy to land that once his opponent is knocked off the stage, certain characters just stand no chance at returning. As long as Meta Knight saves his killing moves for the higher percents, he really shouldn't have any problems landing those necessary kills.

Aside from this, like Overswarm said, Metaknight definitely has more strengths than weaknesses, and there is bound to be Metaknight players at almost every tournament.

To top it all off... He is definitely the most badass-looking walking head with mittens around. Just how do you top that?

 

[Bobesco]

I'm gonna have to disagree with that.


Sure the Landmines's C4 is gonna limit MK's Movement, but Nades are not hard to dodge/shield. The Problem may be the Nikita if MK's knocked off the stage.

Sure Snake would have an advantage, but MK can still win, easily.

Nice! Consume the shield or use air dodge to take a Uptilt/dash atack and Ftilt. Granades limit the MK's movement too.

EDIT: Dsmash is good and quickly, and have no lag, but is not powerfull, if your oponent use DI, he survives easily. And if use more Dsmash, he loses the power and %.
OBS: The 3º hit of Ftilt have a minimal lag, if you is fast, you can take him in this time

 

[Jewdo]

Whoops - put my reply in the wrong place. Moved it to here.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Card makes a good point.

MetaKnight players seem to be able to overcome his weaknesses, including that fact that most of MetKnight's attacks do subpar damage when compared to others, particually the tilts.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm gonna have to disagree with that.


Sure the Landmines's C4 is gonna limit MK's Movement, but Nades are not hard to dodge/shield. The Problem may be the Nikita if MK's knocked off the stage.

Sure Snake would have an advantage, but MK can still win, easily.

I'm not trying to be snippy when I say this, but you haven't played a good Snake yet have you?

The C4/Landmines aren't really the issue when it comes to the matchup---it's the fact that Snake can rack up damage with insane ease otherwise due to his regular A moves, nevermind the explosives in his arsenal. A good Snake player will sometimes try to bait you into close range by lobbing a couple of 'nades or planting a bomb here and there so that he can pummel you with some of his amazing ground tilts/neutral A combo---nearly all of which that kill, btw, and they have a surprising amount of range and priority.

Plus, Snake can cover a lot of ground quickly with his patented mortar slide. Some good Snake players will pop you up into the air and allow you to try and come at them from on high. Nine times out of ten they have an uptilt waiting for you, an assortment of mines/C4, a Nikita missile, or even another mortar.

Of course, I'm not saying that this is an impossible match-up for Metaknight. It's just difficult.

Smooth Criminal

 

[mrk]

Sure the Landmines's C4 is gonna limit MK's Movement, but Nades are not hard to dodge/shield. The Problem may be the Nikita if MK's knocked off the stage.

C4's not been a problem, at least in my experience. If MK is running over it, he's too fast to be hit by it. Mach Tornado is also too fast/versatile to be bothered. The Nikita is annoying because of its damage and power, but MT makes it pass straight through him, at which point it's possible to run the Tornado into the helpless Snake, as Meta Knight can cover any reasonable distance with MT before Snake's Nikita-Cancel finishes. The problem, in my experience, is the grenade. Easy, fast, good damage, great knockback, and MT-proof. You can't keep close to Snake if he spams them, either, because Snake is obviously quite a bit more heavy-weight than Meta is.

 

[Bobesco]

I'm not trying to be snippy when I say this, but you haven't played a good Snake yet have you?

The C4/Landmines aren't really the issue when it comes to the matchup---it's the fact that Snake can rack up damage with insane ease otherwise due to his regular A moves, nevermind the explosives in his arsenal. A good Snake player will sometimes try to bait you into close range by lobbing a couple of 'nades or planting a bomb here and there so that he can pummel you with some of his amazing ground tilts/neutral A combo---nearly all of which that kill, btw, and they have a surprising amount of range and priority.

Plus, Snake can cover a lot of ground quickly with his patented mortar slide. Some good Snake players will pop you up into the air and allow you to try and come at them from on high. Nine times out of ten they have an uptilt waiting for you, an assortment of mines/C4, a Nikita missile, or even another mortar.

Of course, I'm not saying that this is an impossible match-up for Metaknight. It's just difficult.

Smooth Criminal

Good coment.

 

[Card]

I'm not trying to be snippy when I say this, but you haven't played a good Snake yet have you?

The C4/Landmines aren't really the issue when it comes to the matchup---it's the fact that Snake can rack up damage with insane ease otherwise due to his regular A moves, nevermind the explosives in his arsenal. A good Snake player will sometimes try to bait you into close range by lobbing a couple of 'nades or planting a bomb here and there so that he can pummel you with some of his amazing ground tilts/neutral A combo---nearly all of which that kill, btw, and they have a surprising amount of range and priority.

Plus, Snake can cover a lot of ground quickly with his patented mortar slide. Some good Snake players will pop you up into the air and allow you to try and come at them from on high. Nine times out of ten they have an uptilt waiting for you, an assortment of mines/C4, a Nikita missile, or even another mortar.

Of course, I'm not saying that this is an impossible match-up for Metaknight. It's just difficult.

Smooth Criminal

Don't forget that Snakes U-Tilt says Hello to Meta Knight

 

[mrk]

MT says hello to U-Tilt.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Don't forget that Snakes U-Tilt says Hello to Meta Knight

OH, LORD YES. AHHHHHHHHHH!

Smooth Criminal

 

[ShadowLink84]

Would it be safe to say then that Snake would be an effective character against characters like MK.
Where they have limited options on the ground and so would have problems with Snake?

 

[Griffard]

my guess is olimar or lucario... idk tho, very vague

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

i would say olimar also.

and on that note: OMFG OLIMAR'S SMASHES ARE SO OP.

 

[Rampage]

I'm leaning towards olimar or falco lol

The MK summary was right on the dot. Looks like MK is going to be winning most tourneys and taking up the spot in High/Top tier :[

 

[Eaode]

# 2 definitely Olimar


I would write a meaningful response, but pretty much all of my words have been said already ^.^;;

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

So, I didn't read everything what people said before me because it's three pages, but I'll throw in my input and it will probably support everyone else's opinions.

I will examine what I think on metaknight in three categories: Physics (weight, speed), Playing ability (combos, gimps, recovery), and match-ups

Metaknight's Physics
Metaknight is obviously extremely fast in almost all aspects. His "run" speed is fast, his dash grab is insane fast, his jumps are somewhat medium speed but his up-b is an immediate loop that starts up crazy fast. All of his standard moves, except mainly the fsmash, are incredibly fast as well. His dtilt poke has great range, is almost identical to marths in speed, moves him forward and trips the opponent sometimes. His other tilts are also very swift, and his ftilt is almost like his natural combo since his jab is a series of (very quick) sword slashes. His down smash is unbelievable swift and hits on both sides almost immediately. With bad DI, this move will destroy an opponent. His up smash is three very quick slashes, and although weak for KOs, is good for hitting above becuase it has a very wide range. All of his aerials have very little landing lag and are very quick. I will discuss the aerials more in the comboing area. Metaknights only physical weakness is his weight. He is among the lighter characters but probably the heaviest of the puffballs (not sure on that though). Although he can be KO'd at fairly low percentages, finding a hole in his speed, priority, and correct use of spacing still makes it difficult to KO metaknight.

Playing-Ability
Metaknight seems to be one of the best characters for 'combos' in Brawl. Certain aerials have low knockback and can be chained together. His dthrow leads into multiple fairs, or a dash attack into an usmash, and many other options. His uair can be chained together with autojumps by holding up, and although it can be DI'd out of easily, it is so quick that the Metaknight player will get a few hits in quick succession. His nair is fairly powerful as well. Metaknight has great options with his glide. I've seen a metaknight player glide attack cancel my shield into a jab (the multiple slashes) and he immediately dsmashed which hit below my shield and knocked me off the stage for a KO. His jab has no lag afterwards, and can go into any smash or tilt after it finishes. In some instances, Metaknight can up-b to glide attack off the ground. His glide attack KO's at decent percentages and is sometimes hard to get around when you're trying to edgeguard him. I also think that Metaknight is one of the best gimpers in the game, which is limited due to Brawl's physics. His dair to me is the new shinespike of melee. Metaknight can dair you near the edge, catch you after your midair jump with another dair, and if necessary dair you again to keep you from up-bing. This is easy for metaknight since he has 6 or 7 jumps and the best recovery in the game (which I will go into soon). His up-b is also one of his best moves. It can gimp if it hits you at the right angle launching you behind him, and it can be used out of shield and has surprisingly large knockback, and he goes into a glide after the up-b which aids in his recovery. His recovery to me is the best in the game. Some say Pit has the best recovery, but they are defining 'recovery' as 'vertical height' because although Pit can go higher than any other character in the game with his up-b (which isn't necessary since killzones below stages don't need someone to go that high), he is incredibly gimpable during his Wings of Icarus state. When Pit starts the move, he kind of drops down a little and then slowly accelerates upwards. During the beginning, it's easy to hit Pit out of his up b causing him not to be able to use it again. Even a projectile like a Pit arrow can KO Pit due to his up-b. Metaknight on the other hand is the only character who can glide THREE TIMES. He can jump jump glide, jump out of the glide and glide agian, then up-b and glide (correct me if I'm wrong on that since I do not play as Metaknight.) His up-b is renewable unlike Pit's as well. He can also recover in three other ways, mach tornado, the side B spin thing, and his dimentia cape(i think that's what it is called.) These moves have high priority, and can catch you off guard and either get you stuck in them for free damage or knock you away. These moves are not invincible though, since they can be countered by certain characters.

Match-Ups
Coming soon...