Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[null]

Lucas can be sort of annoying all around. His PKT can bring in a free 20%+, his PK Fire can slow DDD's approach (unless there are Waddle Dees and dos in the way), and DDD is a huge target for all of Lucas's attacks. But he still can be killed easily.

R.O.B. dominates DDD. His lasers go through DDD's minions, he's got fast, hard to punish attacks, and he's decently heavy.

DDD vs Zelda is my least favorite match up, for reasons stated by Vaul. DDD is huge and floaty, making him a huge target for her aerials, and making it hard for him to DI out of her smashes.

Zelda is, indeed, a simple character, and I've yet to see another person (other than myself) who attempts to use her any differently.

 

[Gamekidadv]

Zelda is, indeed, a simple character, and I've yet to see another person (other than myself) who attempts to use her any differently.

As a Zelda main, I agree that she's one of the easier characters to use. I'm curious though, how do you use her "differently?" I've tried being more aggressive with her, but she lacks approaching options and attempts I make to approach are often predicted and punished.

And Vaul, I enjoy playing as Zelda. So your accusing me of having a lack of integrity, lack of technical skill, and a sad life. Well I would like to inform you that neither do I lack integrity nor do I lack technical skill.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Zelda is, indeed, a simple character, and I've yet to see another person (other than myself) who attempts to use her any differently.

I would disagree actually, she's got a surprising amount of depth to those simple looking moves.

People are just starting to exploit it now that the simple stuff doesn't work anymore.

As a Zelda main, I agree that she's one of the easier characters to use. I'm curious though, how do you use her "differently?" I've tried being more aggressive with her, but she lacks approaching options and attempts I make to approach are often predicted and punished.

Try her ^b, among other things, it's actually a rather safe approach, especially since it's nearly lagless, but you do have to pay attention to spacing. Din's fire can also be a great cover for an approach, as can short-hopped neutral b against projectile spammers.

And Vaul, I enjoy playing as Zelda. So your accusing me of having a lack of integrity, lack of technical skill, and a sad life. Well I would like to inform you that I lack neither integrity nor technical skill.

No, he's saying Zelda is a simple character to play, not accusing you of anything.

 

[full_95]

next week is ike, no doubt

 

[MiraiGen]

Here's all I heard:

Of course these are generalizations (and I am purposely trying to be controversial to actually get some interesting discussion going),

Um, yeah, go do it in Zelda discussion. This really isn't your thread and you're kind of de-railing it anyway. So knock it off. I won't even bother to disagree because even though I think you're completely wrong this really isn't the right place (I mean, that is unless Samurai Panda came in and told you to make up some outlandish bull **** to start a debate, in which case please continue).

No, he's saying Zelda is a simple character to play, not accusing you of anything.

I think when he said "Sad life" he kind of threw treating Zelda players like crap right in the middle of his post.

 

[Vaul]

Yea...I used harsh syntax (holy **** I used that word on SWF) only to be provocative and to instigate some semi-intelligent discussion here. Definitely don't take it personally haha. My views are really aimed at the character itself.

EDIT: Jesus christ, why is this such a big issue? If you're honestly that offended I can take these posts elsewhere and you can stick to the three worded 'its defintly ike' posts which, for me, have absolutely no value whatsoever and don't encourage experienced players from posting here (90% 2008/07 join dates). What exactly am I derailing? Why am I such a threat to you? This thread has virtually no momentum at all; the next page will be completely void of anything referenced here and will go back to the innocent guessing game. Its a god**** video game discussion forum; if you take offense that easily I don't recommend the Internet.

 

[Gamekidadv]

Yea...I used harsh syntax (holy **** I used that word on SWF) only to be provocative and to instigate some semi-intelligent discussion here. Definitely don't take it personally haha. My views are really aimed at the character itself.

EDIT: Jesus christ, why is this such a big issue? If you're honestly that offended I can take these posts elsewhere and you can stick to the three worded 'its defintly ike' posts which, for me, have absolutely no value whatsoever and don't encourage experienced players from posting here (90% 2008/07 join dates). What exactly am I derailing? Why am I such a threat to you? This thread has virtually no momentum at all; the next page will be completely void of anything referenced here and will go back to the innocent guessing game. Its a god**** video game discussion forum; if you take offense that easily I don't recommend the Internet.

Relax, it was just a joke. Maybe it was poorly told though, I corrected you on the idea that I lacked integrity and technical skill, but said nothing to correct you on the "sad life" part. Sorry if I sounded upset, I'm not at all. It was just a stupid joke.

 

[Kitamerby]

Ike. It's Ike.

Recovery refers to Quick Draw, which was awesome until people figured out how to gimp it. A whiffed move or slowed reaction against Ike means death.

 

[Vaul]

Relax, it was just a joke. Maybe it was poorly told though, I corrected you on the idea that I lacked integrity and technical skill, but said nothing to correct you on the "sad life" part. Sorry if I sounded upset, I'm not at all. It was just a stupid joke.

The edit part was not directed to you at all, it was directed to MiraiGen who posted shortly after I posted the first half. Yea no worries, definitely wasn't pissed or defensive over what you said haha. Apparently Mirai just takes interactions on SWF too seriously. Which would make sense, since he pays to be here.

 

[Gamekidadv]

I see, I thought you were referring to my comment. Thanks for clearing that up.

Try her ^b, among other things, it's actually a rather safe approach, especially since it's nearly lagless, but you do have to pay attention to spacing. Din's fire can also be a great cover for an approach, as can short-hopped neutral b against projectile spammers.

Believe me, I have tried the first one, and it can get predictable. Her ^b approaches can all just be stopped by shielding it, whether you ram it into the opponent, behind them, or in front. The move does have some ending lag, and your opponent can just drop the shield and attack you before the lag ends.

Din's also not hard to punish if used to approach. Its easy to block or out prioritize it, and Zelda is venerable during the move and shortly after it.

The third works, assuming your opponent is just an idiot spammer who doesn't see his projectile are hurting him more than me. Most people would just stop spamming projectile if Zelda's reflecting them effectively.

Not to say that any of these approaches are bad, but they aren't enough to make Zelda agressive.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I see, I thought you were referring to my comment. Thanks for clearing that up.



Believe me, I have tried the first one, and it can get predictable. Her ^b approaches can all just be stopped by shielding it, whether you ram it into the opponent, behind them, or in front. The move does have some ending lag, and your opponent can just drop the shield and attack you before the lag ends.

Din's also not hard to punish if used to approach. Its easy to block or out prioritize it, and Zelda is venerable during the move and shortly after it.

The third works, assuming your opponent is just an idiot spammer who doesn't see his projectile are hurting him more than me. Most people would just stop spamming projectile if Zelda's reflecting them effectively.

Not to say that any of these approaches are bad, but they aren't enough to make Zelda agressive.

See this is where you need to change your aproach, Dins fire shouldnt leave you open, if it does think about "why" then come back and say Dins fire isnt a good aproach (if you still can!!!¿)

 

[Airgemini]

It could be Ike.
The only thing that makes me doubt it is the recovery part. But otherwise the hint fits him perfectly.

 

[null]

The fast character part is what throws me off the most from it being Ike. I personally don't find fast characters to be much of a problem (maybe an exception or two, but in general...). And to take care of projectiles, quick draw or a SH quick draw with proper spacing can remedy the problem, but not completely cure it.

And of course, the level of fun can't be judged.

 

[Nestec]

Hmm...I can't think of any other character besides Ike and Dedede that sound close...

Pit seems to fit, but I don't know if he has any trouble with faster characters. And if you consider his reflecting properties, he shouldn't have too much trouble with spammers.

I've also been thinking about Jigglypuff. She's a little on the slow side, and has bad match-ups against most (if not all) of the fast characters of the game:

Sonic - I'm actually not too sure about this match-up...
Fox- Bad for Jiggs
G&W- Bad for Jiggs
MK- Bad for Jiggs
Diddy Kong- Bad for Jiggs
Pikachu- And also pretty bad for Jiggs
(I might be missing some other match-ups against fast characters, but you get the point)

Jigglypuff doesn't have too much skill against projectile spamming either. Spamming raises her damage quickly; all Jigglypuff users know that this is bad, since she already has very low (lowest in the game?) weight.

Jigglypuff's Rest isn't powerful anymore, but it CAN turn the match around if you get too close, which you're likely to do if you're winning.

As far as recovery goes, Jigglypuff can get back to the stage from amazing situations, and this has been well known. This the only part of the hint that throws me off though, because Jigglypuff's recovery isn't really easily punished...

Now I'm not saying I think it's Jigglypuff, but I think she should be considered. As well as Wario, but I don't feel like discussing him right now...>__<

 

[goodkid]

Zelda, because Triforce FTW.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

GUYS
I THINK IT MIGHT BE CAPT. FALCON.
FALCONE PAWNCH.

mull it over for a bit.
let it sink in.

 

[Bowserlick]

King DeDeDe. Everything fits. Although Ike is close, his recovery was not intimidating when the game came out. Everyone thought it sucked, it might of actually seemed more useful than initially expected. The penguin, however, seems to have a great recovery, but it does have enough disadvantages to make it fair.

 

[KratosAurion]

King DeDeDe. Everything fits. Although Ike is close, his recovery was not intimidating when the game came out. Everyone thought it sucked, it might of actually seemed more useful than initially expected. The penguin, however, seems to have a great recovery, but it does have enough disadvantages to make it fair.

So are you basing this only on recovery? Dedede might fit well there, but Ike fits much better in pretty much everything else including the problems with projectile spam/slow characters.

I wouldn't exactly call DDD's ftilt as his all mighty savior, completely nullifying Samus's projectile game. Sure DDD can cancel a missle, but how about two using Missle Canceling? Or three homing missles at once? Three homing missles followed by three more with MC? Or MC followed by zair? Or constant zairing with SJR? Or spamed charge shots? Or MC to zair to full charge shot? Yes, that does work well with medium to heavy characters at certain percents.

But you get my point.

Just because DDD can respond to a single missle with ftilts means close to nothing. Waddledees, although good for some protection, cannot overcome all the stated above; a good Samus will not give you a second to breathe without having to evade or shield. DDD's MASSIVE frame just screams zair pwnage, more missle hits, and a superb punching bag for SJR'd aerial attacks. The only thing I see DDD having over Samus (besides his heaviness and her lack of KO moves; gimpings the way to go) is his chaingrab. But as the Brawl community has learned over the past few months, his CG is not broken and will NOT determine the outcome of a matchup. Sure its a factor, but its definitely not the sole determinant. At the absolute least I would say the matchup is even, but I still view Samus as the favorite here. She really is starting to grasp her potential with ISJR and whatnot.

I thought we were taling solely about projectile spam here, not z-air. DDD vs Samus sure is an interesting debate, but it belongs in another thread.

While you're right about the fact that Samus can spam his projectiles quicker than DDD and has more options, him having a way to fight back and spam on his own is already a deciding factor on this week's hint. His F-tilt is not a mighty savior, but it's an attack neglected by most DDD players which is a big mistakes, since it closes the gap extremely quick allowing you to fight back along with minions against projectile spammers while keeping reasonable distance. If anything, it gives your opponent a reason to stop spamming and approach.

There's a lot more to be said in this Samus vs DDD matchup, where I personally view Samus at a disadvantage. My objective with this post is to clarify that Dedede DOES have ways to fight back against most projectile spammers, and he could even be considered a projectile spammer as well. Overall, projectiles aren't it's biggest issue. The same can't be told about Ike though, since he's forced to approach all the time.

 

[UnSaxon51]

Wow. I'm hearing a lot of good reasons for Dedede. Ike doesn't really fit the whole description, but I'm definitely thinking Dedede might trump my previous guess of Wario. He ***** the slower characters like nobody's business, but starts losing appeal against faster characters. He has excellent SURVIVABILITY, but his recovery itself is only so-so.
And every time I play as D3, I have a blast, but everyone else seems to hate me. (not because I win, but because he's just annoying to play against)

 

[l3rian]

i may try ganon out........jk

 

[Shök]

Gotta be that big penguin.

His recovery... just a question, but how can it be gimped?

 

[Grunt]

Gotta be that big penguin.

His recovery... just a question, but how can it be gimped?

an attack usually works.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Ah man, THIS IS FANTASTIC. IT'S GOTTA BE DEDEDE I JUST KNOW IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Chaotic Yoshi]

At this rate they are going to go through all the "high tier" characters early on, and the later discussions will revolve around characters few people care about because they are "low tier" (Maybe a lot of people care about, but you see what I'm trying to say).

Edit: NVM, Refreshed my memory of the first post, it's pretty balanced in regards to who is being reviewed.

 

[Linkplayer5678]

Mario or Lucas.
Mabye Peach

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

They say Admins are those that have skill in Smash but...
most admins just post excessively, not truly having skill.

 

[Nodrak]

After a bit of a delay, we've finally begun discussing the new character of the week.
After brawl's delays, this is nothing =P

This character has some difficulty with some of the faster characters, as well as characters with strong projectile spamming games.
Large, slow character? The larger the character, the easier projectiles can get in the way. Slow characters also have harder times with faster characters simply because they cant get a hit in before they're being juggled

This character's recovery seems great, and was quite intimidating when the game was first released, but now that the game has been out for longer we've come to realize just how easy this character's recovery can be to punish sometimes.
Narrows it down a bit...
Something people got more accustomed to gimping: Ike's aether can be edgegaurded pretty hard, so can his sideB recovery, just jump out in front of it. DK and Bowser's upB recovery isn't the best for vertical recovery which really hurts them ever since people have started footstool jumping more.

Always be careful when you're playing against this character; even if you're winning, the game can turn around instant if you don't react fast enough.
People tend to get cocky when they're up a stock or two, any slow in play can get them hit by slower attacks. This can still be Ike, Bowser or DK but I'm leaning more towards Ike and Bowser.

When all is said and done, this character can be fun to play with, but is rarely fun to play against.
This is up to personal preferance but .. Bowser?

Can you guess who next week's character will be?
My guess is Bowser but DK and Ike are good candidates too

I'm not entirely sure why people think it's DDD, his recovery is pretty good. All people have to do is stop canceling it before they hit the ground and they won't get punished so bad. All DDD needs is one good jump to get horizontal momentum and he's safe.

 

[MojoMan]

Sounds like Ike. As my main, this sounds like the perfect description for him. does terribly against projectile users like pit or Falco, his side B looked unstoppable, but it can just be stopped by air dodging in front of it. If you're not careful, his massive heavy-damage dealers will PWN you into the ground, and he's great for comebacks.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The next character is easily Ike.

Ike has trouble with fast characters because his own attack speed is low.

He doesn't like projectile camping, as it kills one of his better approaches.

His recovery is ok. It used to appear very good because QD gained lots of distance, or Aether was hard to ledgehog, but nah, his recovery is just ok at best.

Also, if you aren't careful against Ike, his overpowered kill moves are no joke.

Playing as Ike is fun, but playing against him isn't, since it almost always involves just baiting him out to initiate something.

For people who say DDD:

DDD can spam back, and his spam stops people from spamming, so he doesn't really suffer against spammers. Also, DDD's recovery is VERY good. Unless I'm mistaken. Multiple midair jumps already gets him a ton of distance and air time. His Up-B is deceptively hard to punish, not just because of SA frames, but also because the landing attack doesn't have nearly as many openings as one would expect.

 

[Browny]

the landing attack has enough opening for someone like zelda, link, ganon, ike to make short work of it with aerials that KO

 

[Snail]

Think about it though. The "being able to turn around a match quickly" fits Dedede's chaingrabs much better than a random FSmash from Ike. Sure, it's strong, but it's not going to kill you out of nowhere unless you already had 70% :/ D3's chaingrab can instantly KO several characters in walk-off stages, it can infinite other characters against a wall and infinite others without even moving... And the super jump landing is really laggy. And a lot more intimidating than Aether >_>

 

[biohazard930]

For people who say DDD:

DDD can spam back, and his spam stops people from spamming, so he doesn't really suffer against spammers. Also, DDD's recovery is VERY good. Unless I'm mistaken. Multiple midair jumps already gets him a ton of distance and air time. His Up-B is deceptively hard to punish, not just because of SA frames, but also because the landing attack doesn't have nearly as many openings as one would expect.

Really? Jump->Airdodge->Aerial doesn't work most times?

 

[biohazard930]

This character's recovery seems great, and was quite intimidating when the game was first released, but now that the game has been out for longer we've come to realize just how easy this character's recovery can be to punish sometimes.
Narrows it down a bit...
Something people got more accustomed to gimping: Ike's aether can be edgegaurded pretty hard, so can his sideB recovery, just jump out in front of it. DK and Bowser's upB recovery isn't the best for vertical recovery which really hurts them ever since people have started footstool jumping more.

To me, punishing and gimping seem like very different things. That said, I think DK (and to a lesser extent Bowser) can be gimped due to their subpar vertical recovery, however, once they get their UpB off, they are hard to punish (provided they reach the stage). I know DK's UpB has good priority and I have found it hard to punish.

I'm not entirely sure why people think it's DDD, his recovery is pretty good. All people have to do is stop canceling it before they hit the ground and they won't get punished so bad. All DDD needs is one good jump to get horizontal momentum and he's safe.

He has considerable landing lag when he doesn't cancel. Thus, just jump, airdodge, and aerial. It's hard not to punish. "Easy to punish" and "good recovery" aren't exactly mutually exclusive.


Sorry for the double post. >_<

 

[Heroic]

lol, next week's character is undoubtedly Ike. DDD soesn't fit because he can spam, bowser doesn't fit because his recovery isn't intimidating at all, same for DK. And yeah, Ike is much more a table turner then DDD. It is not like you could follow up with something powerful after a chaingrab.

I recall when I started playing Ike, I said: "hm, this character seems to have problems with slow characters and projectile spammers." Obviously Ike.

 

[Popertop]

so what, is Overswarm too good for us?
no update?

 

[Kirby Magatsu]

obviously Ike

 

[Overswarm]

so what, is Overswarm too good for us?
no update?

Lee Harris has this one.

 

[hotgarbage]

Is there even an update happening this week? I thought the discussion thread was delayed. But anyways I look forward to it whenever it comes out

 

[LeeHarris]

I'll have it up by tonight! OS is busy with a lot of backroom stuff and he was out of town for 3 weeks so I did the last 3.

 

[Overswarm]

By out of town, he means ou t of country :D