Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[manhunter098]

Actually, Yoshi is pretty gimpable. He has juggernaut frames on his second jump, which pretty much means that you just need to hit him with an attack that does enough damage and he will be sent flying. Granted he can air dodge, but considering all you need to do in order to be able to kill him is hit him for like 10 damage (in a single hit) and he wont be coming back.

 

[Morrigan]

How's Pit's recovery easily gimpable? Can someone explain?

 

[kupo15]

Dumb Pits will Up B next to the person and get knocked out of the Up B and has nothing left to recover from

 

[Rhykune]

Hit him out of his Up-B once and he dies. Just keep knocking back each of his jumps. Still with gliding, he is not that gimpable so I do not think it is him.

 

[exidid]

How's Pit's recovery easily gimpable? Can someone explain?

Maybe is not easily gimped; but if you hit him while he is doing his angel wings, he is done.

I thought it was Peach, but then it said "recovery easily stopped" and got my hopes closed. She fits the other descriptions though.

Then I thought about Wario, but he is destroyed by DDD. And he is nowhere near underrated or underused.

I'd go with Pit, but the "underrated" and "easily gimped" parts got me off.

Yoshi is not that easily gimped because of his second jump superarmor frames and airdodging.

Sheik might be an option too.

My guesses:

-Pit
-Peach

 

[Morrigan]

I don't think it's Peach.

She isn't 'severely underplayed and underrated' and doesn't have lots of usable ATs. Just glide toss. (no one uses Free Pull)

 

[exidid]

I'm biased.

 

[Adapt]

I'll go for Pit...

I was thinking ZSS until the last sentence

 

[Roager]

Err, Lucas' is just a bit faster. Both recoveries aren't exactly fantastic...

But with Ness, you can jump in, get hit by the lightning, and ness falls like a rock. Lucas, you actually have to hit, since his lightning goes through people. Not a great advantage, but still. It's there

As for the hint:
I'd say it's Mario. Yes, DDD has a chaingrab on him, but everything else fits. He's not really that popular. Most people don't realize how much better his cape is since melee. I've ***** snakes and DDD's with Mario's cape and fireball. Aside from the chaingrab, DDD doesn't like fighting Mario. His recovery, while useful, is still pretty gimpable and short. AT's like the cape glide keep his edgeguarding top-notch, but he only seems to kill through edgeguards. His F-smash isn't really that slow, but it's priority isn't great. The U-smash is good, but it's often easy to see coming. And that pretty much sums up all his kill moves, save for the very slow F-air. D-smash has a low trajectory, which is nice, but it doesn't really have enough knockback to be a viable kill move. Most of Mario's playstyle is based on building damage. All his ground moves have low knockback, but decent damage, save for the kill moves. The idea here is that Mario, while good, has to spend too much time getting the opponent to a killable percent to be a truly outstanding character.

Yeah, a chaingrab is a pretty big thing to leave out, but everything else fits so perfectlyl.

 

[BBQ°]

If it is Mario, what are the "impressive, yet gimmicky, ATs"?

 

[Devil7]

I'm just going to keep posting ike until he does it and that i can say i got it right before everyone

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ Lol at that

What if Ike's the last character?

 

[WolfCypher]

If the next one is Pit right after we got Lucario, I'll be very happy.

Spoiler

It's Mewtwo.

 

[Sir Bedevere]

-Pit
-Peach

Something's wrong here...

-Peach
-Pit

Ah, there we go.

Anyways, it seems like Pit to me the most, but the only thing that's really throwing me off if the "Severely underplayed and underrated" part. I mean, I know he isn't exactly a staple in the tournament standings, but severely? And I don't think he's underrated, either...most people don't think of him as low as they do Yoshi or Ganon. The hint would fit him like a glove (an annoying, spammy glove) if it weren't for those first 4 words...

...

Then again, I said a similar thing for Lucario and wrote him off as a possibilty almost immediately, and look what happened.

It's most likely Pit.

IT'S PIKACHU!

*Looks at first page again*

GOD ****IT! ARRRRRGRH!

Tch, biter.

ITS PIKACHU!!!

Edit: GOD DAM IT!!! AHHHHH

 

[Wildfire393]

OK, this one HAS to be Sheik. Everything fits 100% perfectly:

"Severely underplayed and underrated, this character can prove to be one of the more annoying characters to fight against. With some interesting strategies that can possibly even counter characters like D3 and Snake, and an edgeguarding game that can destroy quite a few characters, people may be missing out by overlooking this character. However, it may be that only those with patience will be able to handle this character well, as getting the KO can sometimes prove to be an arduous process. And with a recovery that can be stopped quite easily, this character has a few holes that keep the character from being too powerful. Although the character has impressive, yet gimmicky, ATs to add to the character's game, it seems that this character is overall quite solid but not quite outstanding. "

I cannot think of a character that is MORE underrated/underplayed than Sheik. 95% Of the smash community went "oh, her slap sucks now, bottom tier" and then forgot about her.

Sheik is also massively annoying. With a huge defensive arsenal (Bair, Dsmash, Utilt, Needles) and quick everything, plus the massively damage-racking tilt lock against tons of characters, playing against Sheik means having to never, ever leave yourself with any lag.

Interesting strategies that counter DDD and Snake? The tilt lock racks up a lot of damage on both of them. Needles are a great Grenade counter, Sheik can't be DDD chaingrabbed, and Sheik has tools for gimping both of their recoveries.

Sheik's edgeguarding game is undeniably good. Glide vanish, chain/chain jacket, needles, great offstage aerials, tether-hogging, it's all good.

Patience required due to sometimes arduous KO process? Definitely. Unless you can land Sheik's most difficult-to-hit moves (Usmash tipper or vanish), Sheik will not reliably kill until AT LEAST 150%. Edgeguarding can make this slightly better, but it still takes like a 120% Strong Nair/Bair offstage for the kill, or something like 135% for the Slap.

As for easily stopped recovery: Even though Sheik has two methods of recovery plus the wall cling, none of them really go any further than the others. So if Sheik is far enough out that she needs to Up-B/Tether the ledge, hogging it will KO her every time. That said, vanishing onto the stage is not as dreadful of a prospect as it was in Melee, making her recovery slightly more versatile, and the side-B being a tether will mean many less accidental deaths due to pressing in slightly the wrong direction with B.

As for impressive/gimmicky AT's: DACUS, Vanish Glide, Chain Lock, Chain Jacket. Especially Vanish Glide.

 

[rinoH]

its pit or peach

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Wow my post went completely looked over

Severely underplayed and underrated, this character can prove to be one of the more annoying characters to fight against. With some interesting strategies that can possibly even counter characters like D3 and Snake, and an edgeguarding game that can destroy quite a few characters, people may be missing out by overlooking this character. However, it may be that only those with patience will be able to handle this character well, as getting the KO can sometimes prove to be an arduous process. And with a recovery that can be stopped quite easily, this character has a few holes that keep the character from being too powerful. Although the character has impressive, yet gimmicky, ATs to add to the character's game, it seems that this character is overall quite solid but not quite outstanding

Hmm, well first lets see who's left

IC's
Yoshi
Pit
DK
Peach
Ness
Lucas
Mario
Luigi
Sheik
PT
Zero Suit Samus
Fox
Wario
Ike
Olimar
Jigglypuff
Sonic(Wow, theres still alot left >.>)
Ok, now who might have a good matchup with D3 and Snake

IC's
Pit
Ness
Lucas
Wario
Zamus
Fox
Olimar
Sonic?
{Mario, Luigi and DK get infinite grabbed, Jiggs, Peach and Sheik get owned by both of them, Yoshi also is at a DA}

Who's underplayed (and has a decent edguarding game)

IC's
Ness
Lucas
Fox
Zamus
Sonic?
And maybe Pit....
{Oli is played alot, and Wario has not shortages either}

Who cant KO easily

Ness & Lucas(Questionable)
Zamus
Pit?
Fox(Another questionable one...)
Sonic
{IC's, grab can equal KO, and theyre very powerful, Ness, Lucas, Pit and Fox can KO easily,but with hard to hit moves i guess}

Gimpable recovery

Ness
Pit
Zamus
{Lucas has lotsa options, Sonic does too,and Fox recovers quick}

Gimmicky AT's

Ness
Pit(Still questionable placement....)
{ZSS has no AT's i know of}

 

[exidid]

Throwing my biasness out, I'm going with Sheik or Pit (more likely Sheik).

EDIT: Peach does well against DDD, and doesn't get ***** by Snake.

 

[Nestec]

Hmmm.....

If Sheik's recovery really is easily gimpable, then it may very well be her, I think.

 

[Wildfire393]

Wow my post went completely looked over
Ok, now who might have a good matchup with D3 and Snake

IC's
Pit
Ness
Lucas
Wario
Zamus
Fox
Olimar
Sonic?
{Mario, Luigi and DK get infinite grabbed, Jiggs, Peach and Sheik get owned by both of them, Yoshi also is at a DA}

Here's why your posst got overlooked. You claim "Sheik gets owned by both of them". Obviously you have never seen a good Sheik versus either of these characters (which isn't unlikely, there aren't that many good Sheiks).

Sheik has a tilt lock to fairly high percentages on both of these characters. Even if they do escape, they're pretty much guaranteed to eat an Utilt/Usmash/Aerial of your choice.

Sheik has good countersto common strategies of both of these characters. Needles screw up Snake's grenade-game BAD (they force a drop on a grenade in his hand and detonate one in the air). This forces Snake to approach, and Needles also prevent a lot of Mortar-slide shenanigans. Which leaves him with a walking approach or aerials, either of which can be shielded into tilt-locks.
Sheik is too light to be Chainthrown by DDD, and if he still tries and pursues the tech-chase, he's eating a downsmash. She's agile enough not to have a big problem with Waddles, though they do hamper the needle game.

Sheik can also play hell with the recoveries of these characters. The slap will always knock Snake out of his Cypher, allowing him to be basically edge-juggled until you can either land a strong Nair for the kill or simply grab the cypher/snake for the death. Also, having a non-attacking Up-B, snake is vulnerable to Vanish Gliding if he's too far to be grabbed.'
As for DDD, needles can screw up his multiple jumps, due to his weight, forcing him to Up-B. If he goes for the ledge, Sheik can tetherhog or vanish at the edge to hit him. If he goes for the stage, Sheik gets a free Vanish or Usmash Tipper, which are, non-coincidentally, Sheik's best ko moves.

I'm not saying these matchups are easy or massively favorable, but sheik DEFINITELY has techniques that counter these two.

 

[TheKingOfFuzz]

#21 is Sheik.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

its either luigi or sheik...












































or yoshi

 

[OrlanduEX]

It's Pit

Spoiler

10arrrows

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Severely underplayed and underrated, this character can prove to be one of the more annoying characters to fight against. With some interesting strategies that can possibly even counter characters like D3 and Snake, and an edgeguarding game that can destroy quite a few characters, people may be missing out by overlooking this character. However, it may be that only those with patience will be able to handle this character well, as getting the KO can sometimes prove to be an arduous process. And with a recovery that can be stopped quite easily, this character has a few holes that keep the character from being too powerful. Although the character has impressive, yet gimmicky, ATs to add to the character's game, it seems that this character is overall quite solid but not quite outstanding.

It's either Lucas or Ness. Lucas fares decently against Dedede and Snake last I checked (idk about Ness), and both are superb edgeguarders. They both have spikes, and they both can launch controllable projectiles to make getting back to the stage hard for most characters. Both are often overlooked due to their vulnerability to grab releases. Lucas in particular has to wait for an opportunity to land one of his KO moves, which can take a while at times. Ness's recovery is easier to stop by jumping in the way of PK Thunder. Both have ATs that revolve around PK Fire, and Lucas can Thunderslide and Magnet Pull. They both have strong points but aren't quite strong enough to place high on the tier lists.

Gah, I can't decide. I'm going to go with Lucas since he's my main and I don't want to miss my own character. How embarrassing would that be? >_<

 

[Morrigan]

Wow my post went completely looked over

Here's why your posst got overlooked. You claim "Sheik gets owned by both of them". Obviously you have never seen a good Sheik versus either of these characters (which isn't unlikely, there aren't that many good Sheiks).

Not only because of Sheik. There other flaws in MrVictory's reasoning.

 

[Furbs]

im thinking pit for next week?

 

[Serris]

Yoshi. He fits the description perfectly.

 

[DanGR]

{Oli is played alot, and Wario has not shortages either}

Olimar is very unpopular. He fits the entire description perfectly, except for the killing problem.

I think it's sheik though.

 

[cba]

LUCAS.... lucas.
lucas. seriously

 

[Olimarman]

Pit or Olimar. Most likely Pit.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Olimar is very unpopular. He fits the entire description perfectly, except for the killing problem.

Yes, because he's SEVERLY underplayed and UNDERATED

 

[JLynn943]

I would say it's either Lucas or Ness.

Both have great edge-guarding games, but only a couple of reliable kill moves. They're definitely annoying to play against and both require a lot of patience. Their recoveries are really easy to gimp (especially Ness), and they've got a ton of ATs, too.

 

[Yonder]

I was gonna guess Luigi, he fills almost everything except for countering DDD

 

[Pose]

Pit, most definitely.

 

[manhunter098]

Ive already said this once, but I think this time Ill provide some reasoning, and say it once more.

Its probably Yoshi.

Well its too much of a pain in the *** to list all of the underused characters, so Ill just supply underused characters that have KO problems.

Jigglypuff
Mario (a little)
Pit
Samus
Sheik
Sonic
Yoshi

Next I will look at characters that can have their recovery easily stopped.

Yoshi
Pit

I do feel that Yoshi has a superior edge game, though a little risky to use. His d-air works like Kirby's and is good for gimp kills. He has a spike on his f-air and if you miss the sweetspot for the spike it has very good horizontal knockback. B-air has decent range and multiple hits and a rather large hitbox make it easy to land. And n-air has great knockback if you hit with the initial frames and it has good startup time.

Pit has good aerials, but I notice most of them tend to have a lot of vertical knockback, which isnt particularly useful for edge guarding, though his multiple jumps and recovery do help him a lot.

I also think that with Yoshi's Eggs and Pits arrows, they both do fairly well against DDD and Snake, not to mention Yoshi can grab release snake from his Cypher near the edge much more easily than most characters because of his long range grab.



Also, YOSHI DOESNT HAVE SUPER ARMOR. They are juggernaut frames and the difference is HUGE. Juggernaut frames pretty much mean that Yoshi's recovery = Snakes, except Yoshi doesnt actually have an up b, but his second jump can be seen to pretty much be equivalent to a faster moving version of Snakes Cypher.

 

[smashbro29]

I guess next week's character is Yoshi

 

[-Jumpman-]

Next week character will be ZSS.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Ive already said this once, but I think this time Ill provide some reasoning, and say it once more.

Its probably Yoshi.

Well its too much of a pain in the *** to list all of the underused characters, so Ill just supply underused characters that have KO problems.

Jigglypuff
Mario (a little)
Pit
Samus
Sheik
Sonic
Yoshi

Next I will look at characters that can have their recovery easily stopped.

Yoshi
Pit

I do feel that Yoshi has a superior edge game, though a little risky to use. His d-air works like Kirby's and is good for gimp kills. He has a spike on his f-air and if you miss the sweetspot for the spike it has very good horizontal knockback. B-air has decent range and multiple hits and a rather large hitbox make it easy to land. And n-air has great knockback if you hit with the initial frames and it has good startup time.

Pit has good aerials, but I notice most of them tend to have a lot of vertical knockback, which isnt particularly useful for edge guarding, though his multiple jumps and recovery do help him a lot.

I also think that with Yoshi's Eggs and Pits arrows, they both do fairly well against DDD and Snake, not to mention Yoshi can grab release snake from his Cypher near the edge much more easily than most characters because of his long range grab.



Also, YOSHI DOESNT HAVE SUPER ARMOR. They are juggernaut frames and the difference is HUGE. Juggernaut frames pretty much mean that Yoshi's recovery = Snakes, except Yoshi doesnt actually have an up b, but his second jump can be seen to pretty much be equivalent to a faster moving version of Snakes Cypher.

Yoshi's recovery is NOT easily stopped, D3 and Snake are bad matchups

 

[PK-ow!]

Update #21: ?????

8/26/08
Severely underplayed and underrated, this character can prove to be one of the more annoying characters to fight against. With some interesting strategies that can possibly even counter characters like D3 and Snake, and an edgeguarding game that can destroy quite a few characters, people may be missing out by overlooking this character. However, it may be that only those with patience will be able to handle this character well, as getting the KO can sometimes prove to be an arduous process. And with a recovery that can be stopped quite easily, this character has a few holes that keep the character from being too powerful. Although the character has impressive, yet gimmicky, ATs to add to the character's game, it seems that this character is overall quite solid but not quite outstanding.

Can you guess who next week's character will be?

Looks like Zelda until the last sentence. But Zelda's been done.

This is in no way Ness or Lucas. PKT looks like an edgeguard but Ness' just brings them closer, and tailwhip -> stage spike is so situational. Lucas' recovery isn't easy to gimp, because PKT isn't eaten so easily, and the range allows Lucas to fire from safer distances.

Neither one's ATs are 'gimmicky', unless a gimmicky AT is any AT that isn't a meta-warping mechanic like Wavedashing. Cancelling lag on PK Flash and PKT2, momentum altering PKFires, cancelling landing lag on PKFires - I would not call these gimmicky.

Now the real clue here is that, this is a character who has great edgeguarding yet has a gimpable recovery himself. I'm sure that's odd enough to narrow the list.

Has Pit's recovery been 'beaten'? Could be Pit, then.

No, I'm trusting my gut here and going Mario.

 

[JLynn943]

Pit, most definitely.

pit =/= severly underplayed at all