MythTrainerInfinity
Smash Champion
Phantasm shouldn't be a worry if we don't roll around mindlessly.
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SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess
- Thread starter #HBC | Red Ryu
- Start date
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
See, the issue is that there's three parts, the last being the pathetic one, the others being a bit more troublesome. If a falco knows what he's doing, he'll use it during the invicible part one, or nail you with a laser then do an IAP (Instant Aerial Phantasm), which is pretty much unpunishable if you are hit with the laser first.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I'm pretty sure if you power shield the laser you can punish an IAP, but the timing to do it is hard.
iRJi
Smash Champion
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Here: iRJi Vs BleachigoZX
Game 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GoPZPeWcpM
Game 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jNEn0aHXaU
Game 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLoEeK3RjT8
Like I said earlier, I got *****. But after watching the videos I realized what i was doing wrong. I still think the Mu is still 55:45 in Falco's favor, however.
Game 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GoPZPeWcpM
Game 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jNEn0aHXaU
Game 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLoEeK3RjT8
Like I said earlier, I got *****. But after watching the videos I realized what i was doing wrong. I still think the Mu is still 55:45 in Falco's favor, however.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
So it's confirmed that even fair can hit falco out of phantasm, correct? (I noticed that it happened on game 2 on your videos RJ), so I think we should make it a point to half of the time try to hit him while in the air, but be careful because lasers are even better when you are caught in the air.
MythTrainerInfinity
Smash Champion
Heck even Lucario's Jab clings with Phantasm... Phantasm doesn't have very good priority... But it has very awkward hitboxes...
culexus・wau
Purchased premium only to change name ><
I can't think of anyway we should play in this match-up thats different then our usual :\
and when I start to think deeper the more I think falco should have the advantage...
and when I start to think deeper the more I think falco should have the advantage...
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Really depends on your regions CPs imo.
If you have a really conservative set, falco should win.
If it's the opposite, Lucario's got it imo.
That's how close it is, but I do have to say falco gets the nod towards his favor overall.
If you have a really conservative set, falco should win.
If it's the opposite, Lucario's got it imo.
That's how close it is, but I do have to say falco gets the nod towards his favor overall.
MythTrainerInfinity
Smash Champion
Discussion points, yay.
Falco loves to camp and does not even need to approach Lucario. As the jackal you have to force Falco to approach. Don't roll around too much towards him unless you're pretty certain its safe because you will take damage from lasers and Phantasm.
As for mixing it up you might want to try to launch a BAS at the short hop laser spamming Falco to force him to:
A) Shield
B) Phantasm if he can outprioritize it
C) Reflect it back
D) Roll in your direction (which just screams "Please punish me!")
With it just being a BAS and you know it can be reflected back you can deal with it accordingly (ex. shield, roll, etc) and there is little risk involved to do it.
When shielding Phantasm be weary at what height Falco uses it. They might try to aim for Lucario's head that may be sticking out of his shield, so you could angle your shield up and act accordingly.
In CQC Falco's Jab and Ftilt get annoying, but remember you beat him in the air if you don't fall for his traps. (We might want to train ourselves to do the rising DAir against his Ftilt.)
Do not get too greedy with trying to Force Palm CG him. Falco's spot dodge is really good and if you miss it expect experienced Falcos to grab you and attempt a pillar spike or two. Iirc doesn't his spot dodge only have a couple frames of vulnerability?
How to Win
Falco falls fast and is relatively easy to juggle at low/mid percents. Be weary of trying to gimp him when you are at higher %s because Phantasm spikes you.
Since he falls so fast you might be able to juggle him a bit with Utilts at low %s.
When challenging his spotdodge your best bet might be to use a multi-hit move (Ftilt, DAir, charging Aura Sphere lol), use something with a lingering hitbox (ex. Fsmash), or just be smart with your jabs.
We've discussed using air attack of your choice after DIing his Jab...
Remember all of your kill options. Something odd such as Utilt when you're at around 90%+ and he's over 140%+ (might be higher due to DI) should send him over the horizon.
Be really careful when trying to swat Falco away with a UAir or a Utilt if he's a couple body lengths above Lucario. You might get Nair/Dair/BAired otherwise.
To be completely safe to hit Falco out of Phantasm with Lucario's FAir use it slightly above Falco because Phantasm's hitbox extends further than his body in the middle of Phantasm. I've had cases where he ran into a charging Aura Sphere when I was facing in Falco's direction when he used Phantasm.
Lucario jumps over SH lasers with his full hop. You've got a variety of ways to deal with laser spam, so I really have a hard time seeing Falco having an advantage on Lucario.
In close range in the air Falco's moves are pretty lackluster... Our FAir and even Nair should outrange his FAir (why would he be using this lol) and NAir.
Stages do play a pretty large role in this match-up.
Final Destination... Strike/Ban/whatever it.
Smashville invites camping, so I wouldn't recommend taking him there...
Battlefield, not your best neutral against Falco... Watch out for Utilts and Nairs when you land on platforms/used to shieldpoke.
Yoshi's Island is probably your best choice here, but expect Falco players to strike it anyway, so practice on BF a lot.
Poké Stadium 1, take him here if you're really comfortable.
Brinstar has those parts that absorb the lasers, but what's stopping him from changing a character that is good on that stage?
Lylat Cruise should be your automatic counterpick against Falco. Tilting stage messes with his lasers and recovery. High ceiling lets you live through a lot too.
Jungle Japes is a typical Falco CP, Lucario does pretty well on it, but its not fun and expect a boring, long campy match. If you have ADD like me you'll want to stay away from here.
Frigate, if you're comfortable here, go for it. I personally don't like playing on it though. Your recovery > his recovery here.
Delfino, Castle Siege, and others I don't know enough about against Falcos to have a contributing opinion.
Hope this is useful (I reaaaaalllllllyyyy wanna get to talking about MK).
I still believe its 55:45 Luc's favor :x
Falco loves to camp and does not even need to approach Lucario. As the jackal you have to force Falco to approach. Don't roll around too much towards him unless you're pretty certain its safe because you will take damage from lasers and Phantasm.
As for mixing it up you might want to try to launch a BAS at the short hop laser spamming Falco to force him to:
A) Shield
B) Phantasm if he can outprioritize it
C) Reflect it back
D) Roll in your direction (which just screams "Please punish me!")
With it just being a BAS and you know it can be reflected back you can deal with it accordingly (ex. shield, roll, etc) and there is little risk involved to do it.
When shielding Phantasm be weary at what height Falco uses it. They might try to aim for Lucario's head that may be sticking out of his shield, so you could angle your shield up and act accordingly.
In CQC Falco's Jab and Ftilt get annoying, but remember you beat him in the air if you don't fall for his traps. (We might want to train ourselves to do the rising DAir against his Ftilt.)
Do not get too greedy with trying to Force Palm CG him. Falco's spot dodge is really good and if you miss it expect experienced Falcos to grab you and attempt a pillar spike or two. Iirc doesn't his spot dodge only have a couple frames of vulnerability?
How to Win
Falco falls fast and is relatively easy to juggle at low/mid percents. Be weary of trying to gimp him when you are at higher %s because Phantasm spikes you.
Since he falls so fast you might be able to juggle him a bit with Utilts at low %s.
When challenging his spotdodge your best bet might be to use a multi-hit move (Ftilt, DAir, charging Aura Sphere lol), use something with a lingering hitbox (ex. Fsmash), or just be smart with your jabs.
We've discussed using air attack of your choice after DIing his Jab...
Remember all of your kill options. Something odd such as Utilt when you're at around 90%+ and he's over 140%+ (might be higher due to DI) should send him over the horizon.
Be really careful when trying to swat Falco away with a UAir or a Utilt if he's a couple body lengths above Lucario. You might get Nair/Dair/BAired otherwise.
To be completely safe to hit Falco out of Phantasm with Lucario's FAir use it slightly above Falco because Phantasm's hitbox extends further than his body in the middle of Phantasm. I've had cases where he ran into a charging Aura Sphere when I was facing in Falco's direction when he used Phantasm.
Lucario jumps over SH lasers with his full hop. You've got a variety of ways to deal with laser spam, so I really have a hard time seeing Falco having an advantage on Lucario.
In close range in the air Falco's moves are pretty lackluster... Our FAir and even Nair should outrange his FAir (why would he be using this lol) and NAir.
Stages do play a pretty large role in this match-up.
Final Destination... Strike/Ban/whatever it.
Smashville invites camping, so I wouldn't recommend taking him there...
Battlefield, not your best neutral against Falco... Watch out for Utilts and Nairs when you land on platforms/used to shieldpoke.
Yoshi's Island is probably your best choice here, but expect Falco players to strike it anyway, so practice on BF a lot.
Poké Stadium 1, take him here if you're really comfortable.
Brinstar has those parts that absorb the lasers, but what's stopping him from changing a character that is good on that stage?
Lylat Cruise should be your automatic counterpick against Falco. Tilting stage messes with his lasers and recovery. High ceiling lets you live through a lot too.
Jungle Japes is a typical Falco CP, Lucario does pretty well on it, but its not fun and expect a boring, long campy match. If you have ADD like me you'll want to stay away from here.
Frigate, if you're comfortable here, go for it. I personally don't like playing on it though. Your recovery > his recovery here.
Delfino, Castle Siege, and others I don't know enough about against Falcos to have a contributing opinion.
Hope this is useful (I reaaaaalllllllyyyy wanna get to talking about MK).
I still believe its 55:45 Luc's favor :x
G-Beast
Smash Ace
i like your post myth, but just a few things:
1) DONT juggle falco at low %s, he can very easily shield the second utilt and then do something bad to us... the falco player in my area does it all the time
2) FP CG dosent work, and its hard to do followups until mid %s(50-60% or so) unless he is near the edge of the stage...
3) if he reflects a BAS, its not going to get to you unless your really close to him
4) i personally find smashville to be good against falco, i have found that abusing the moving platform helps ALOT with approaching him if you cant seem to make him come to you, and if he tries to utilt or SH uair, just SH dair him. but like i said, thats just on a personal level
oh yeah, abuse bair when you get him offstage, it beats his recovery and theres nothing he can do about it but try to get around you... uair works too; they both have lulzy residual hitboxes that pwn his recovery
1) DONT juggle falco at low %s, he can very easily shield the second utilt and then do something bad to us... the falco player in my area does it all the time
2) FP CG dosent work, and its hard to do followups until mid %s(50-60% or so) unless he is near the edge of the stage...
3) if he reflects a BAS, its not going to get to you unless your really close to him
4) i personally find smashville to be good against falco, i have found that abusing the moving platform helps ALOT with approaching him if you cant seem to make him come to you, and if he tries to utilt or SH uair, just SH dair him. but like i said, thats just on a personal level
oh yeah, abuse bair when you get him offstage, it beats his recovery and theres nothing he can do about it but try to get around you... uair works too; they both have lulzy residual hitboxes that pwn his recovery
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Oh yeah, I don't know who said it, but to clarify, reflector DOES NOT come out on frame 1, it comes out on frame 4.
MythTrainerInfinity
Smash Champion
When I do super low % juggling against Fastfallers I usually go Utilt -> Force Palm or Grab. Falco makes things a little difficult since he dodges so well.
You should not be camping Aura Sphere during this match unless he's offstage even then he could just go under them and Phantasm to the edge. Typically I like to use BAS when he's doing his short hop pew pews. That way he's committed to it and one of the four ways I've listed earlier puts additional pressure on Falco. Falco's Reflector has quite a bit of ending lag too, so... If you force him to use it with the wise usage of BAS with other approaches... You should be able to punish if you're close enough.
FP can lead into a Dash attack at low %s as Phil mentioned awhile ago iirc. Or did he say that on AiB? I can't remember.
Remember that since you cannot camp Aura Spheres that Falco can sit in his shield, wait for you to do something, and then punish. You could try to mix up your approaches with empty short hops, etc to let him waer it down a bit or just pound at it with DAir. Falco's options are really limited if you om nom his shield, so play wisely.
You should not be camping Aura Sphere during this match unless he's offstage even then he could just go under them and Phantasm to the edge. Typically I like to use BAS when he's doing his short hop pew pews. That way he's committed to it and one of the four ways I've listed earlier puts additional pressure on Falco. Falco's Reflector has quite a bit of ending lag too, so... If you force him to use it with the wise usage of BAS with other approaches... You should be able to punish if you're close enough.
FP can lead into a Dash attack at low %s as Phil mentioned awhile ago iirc. Or did he say that on AiB? I can't remember.
Remember that since you cannot camp Aura Spheres that Falco can sit in his shield, wait for you to do something, and then punish. You could try to mix up your approaches with empty short hops, etc to let him waer it down a bit or just pound at it with DAir. Falco's options are really limited if you om nom his shield, so play wisely.
Aurasmash14
Smash Lord
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His end lag still reflects though :/ but that shouldnt be a problem if you were using AS properly.
Actually, unless you full hopped,or have a very small AS, Falco cannot afford to go under an AS offstage. While in some cases Falco will somehow curve the phantasm towards the ledge, (i have done this before... but i dont know how it works >_> ) most other times will just involve him zooming below the stage. Also, Don't be afraid to Dair the ledge. Most of the time, Falco would be in his vulnerable spot by the time he is close to grabbing the ledge, thus making him vulnerable to a well spaced dair. and even if he does reach the ledge, so long as you didn't use your 2nd jump its pretty hard to get punished .
I really only see FP > Dash attack as useful if the part of the hitbox that sends falco forward hits. other wise, he gets sent behind you, and ready to pillar.
Falco's that know the MU wont be afraid of Lucario hammering their shield. Lucario will almost never whittle one away, much less break it. however, cross-ups on his shield are useful for pressure, and its pretty hard for falco to punish iirc.
im sorta still shifty between 55:45 falco or 50:50. This MU is so stage dependent its like fighting the IC's.
Actually, unless you full hopped,or have a very small AS, Falco cannot afford to go under an AS offstage. While in some cases Falco will somehow curve the phantasm towards the ledge, (i have done this before... but i dont know how it works >_> ) most other times will just involve him zooming below the stage. Also, Don't be afraid to Dair the ledge. Most of the time, Falco would be in his vulnerable spot by the time he is close to grabbing the ledge, thus making him vulnerable to a well spaced dair. and even if he does reach the ledge, so long as you didn't use your 2nd jump its pretty hard to get punished .
I really only see FP > Dash attack as useful if the part of the hitbox that sends falco forward hits. other wise, he gets sent behind you, and ready to pillar.
Falco's that know the MU wont be afraid of Lucario hammering their shield. Lucario will almost never whittle one away, much less break it. however, cross-ups on his shield are useful for pressure, and its pretty hard for falco to punish iirc.
im sorta still shifty between 55:45 falco or 50:50. This MU is so stage dependent its like fighting the IC's.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Yeah I really want to talk about MK soon.
G-Beast
Smash Ace
i think this MU is either 50:50 or 55:45 Lucario
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I need to play Nerd's Falco before I make a definite statement for myself, but atm I'm 45:55 Falco's favor.
MythTrainerInfinity
Smash Champion
When Falco gets knocked behind you and is in the air coming out of hitstun after a Dash attack you might be able to follow up with a Utilt.
"Air Walking" in his direction from his Forward Smash should hit him. (Seriously, if you need to practice it or something I'll be glad to help you through WiFail, but still its a useful tech.)
Also... Falco sucks below the stage... I cannot stress this enough. Lucario could essentially 0 death him if you're smart about your FAirs and gimping.
I practiced in training mode a bit and I found Lucario could survive a fresh USmash at 138% with the best DI/SDI I could muster with two partially broken controllers lol. To be honest I thought the percent Lucario would die at was about 10% or so lower.
I'm going to update with some new Aura Sphere priority numbers shortly.
Edit:
Also, reposting Ruined's data for the purpose of having this info all together.
Falco:
Fsmah:79(19)
bair:117(22)
dair:117(22)
usmash:129(23)
Falco's Phantasm is weird in regards to priority. It either results in him running into something or being outprioitzed. Only the first part of the Phantasm (about a 1/3 of its distance) can outprioritize things otherwise he just runs right into it.
So... Any BAS will hit him out of the middle to the end of Phantasm and the beginning loses to 16% and greater Aura Spheres.
This means we've been doing some things wrong... For instance some things like our FAir may or may not outprioritize the first part of Phantasm and requires further testing.
So... this might mean that we've been playing some of the match-up wrong...
I just did a lot of testing so I'm gonna take a break lol.
"Air Walking" in his direction from his Forward Smash should hit him. (Seriously, if you need to practice it or something I'll be glad to help you through WiFail, but still its a useful tech.)
Also... Falco sucks below the stage... I cannot stress this enough. Lucario could essentially 0 death him if you're smart about your FAirs and gimping.
I practiced in training mode a bit and I found Lucario could survive a fresh USmash at 138% with the best DI/SDI I could muster with two partially broken controllers lol. To be honest I thought the percent Lucario would die at was about 10% or so lower.
I'm going to update with some new Aura Sphere priority numbers shortly.
Edit:
Also, reposting Ruined's data for the purpose of having this info all together.
Falco:
Fsmah:79(19)
bair:117(22)
dair:117(22)
usmash:129(23)
Falco's Phantasm is weird in regards to priority. It either results in him running into something or being outprioitzed. Only the first part of the Phantasm (about a 1/3 of its distance) can outprioritize things otherwise he just runs right into it.
So... Any BAS will hit him out of the middle to the end of Phantasm and the beginning loses to 16% and greater Aura Spheres.
This means we've been doing some things wrong... For instance some things like our FAir may or may not outprioritize the first part of Phantasm and requires further testing.
So... this might mean that we've been playing some of the match-up wrong...
I just did a lot of testing so I'm gonna take a break lol.
iRJi
Smash Champion
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The reason why he doesn't get out prioritized is because at the beginning he is invincible. Falco's body is only visible and hittable at only 3 parts of phantasm. The beginning, the Middle, and the end. The thing's that appear to clank with hit boxes is him actually not having a hit box, but also not being able to be hit because of his invincibility frames. The best bet is to aim for him when he is near the middle to end. Other then that, it's pretty much luck if you hit him out.When Falco gets knocked behind you and is in the air coming out of hitstun after a Dash attack you might be able to follow up with a Utilt.
"Air Walking" in his direction from his Forward Smash should hit him. (Seriously, if you need to practice it or something I'll be glad to help you through WiFail, but still its a useful tech.)
Also... Falco sucks below the stage... I cannot stress this enough. Lucario could essentially 0 death him if you're smart about your FAirs and gimping.
I practiced in training mode a bit and I found Lucario could survive a fresh USmash at 138% with the best DI/SDI I could muster with two partially broken controllers lol. To be honest I thought the percent Lucario would die at was about 10% or so lower.
I'm going to update with some new Aura Sphere priority numbers shortly.
Edit:
Also, reposting Ruined's data for the purpose of having this info all together.
Falco:
Fsmah:79(19)
bair:117(22)
dair:117(22)
usmash:129(23)
Falco's Phantasm is weird in regards to priority. It either results in him running into something or being outprioitzed. Only the first part of the Phantasm (about a 1/3 of its distance) can outprioritize things otherwise he just runs right into it.
So... Any BAS will hit him out of the middle to the end of Phantasm and the beginning loses to 16% and greater Aura Spheres.
This means we've been doing some things wrong... For instance some things like our FAir may or may not outprioritize the first part of Phantasm and requires further testing.
So... this might mean that we've been playing some of the match-up wrong...
I just did a lot of testing so I'm gonna take a break lol.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I think we've discussed this MU too long.
To hit Falco out of his phantasm you need to predict it, anything will hit him out of it, but you still need to predict when he will phantasm.
To hit Falco out of his phantasm you need to predict it, anything will hit him out of it, but you still need to predict when he will phantasm.
iRJi
Smash Champion
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Lol on too long. The whole point is to gather info needed to finish it, which it is not done. I asked for MU numbers so we can move on, but when I did some people said we still had to little information, and because of that we couldn't move on. Now, what I am doing is letting people say what they need to say, so we can move on. As of right now the MU number is 55:45. I also said I would give it to the end of the night for any last comments, and then we will move on to our next matchup.
#HBC | Red Ryu
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I think this is one of the few MU's we went overboard on the amount of info to give, which is a good thing XD.
F1ZZ
Smash Lord
RJ I am actually going to change my vote to 55:45 Falco, you guys have just convinced me. 
iRJi
Smash Champion
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Ok.RJ I am actually going to change my vote to 55:45 Falco, you guys have just convinced me.
I am going to wait until 10:30 PM tonight, EST. As of right now the numbers look like it is in Falco's favor 55:45.
F1ZZ
Smash Lord
Unless 50:50s start raining down from the sky I think it is safe to say that the end result will be 55:45 Falco. So I think people should start voting for the next MU.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I can arrange that. I just need to find more Renamon porn to bribe people with.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
F1ZZ
Smash Lord
Okay I guess I will be the first to vote for the next MU, I'll vote Wario.
iRJi
Smash Champion
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No need for a vote. I Keep saying this, but it does not hurt to say it again. I have a list, and I am just going down on it from what needed to be updated the most, to the least. I went over the talk for Falco, and it's pretty hefty that we have a good amount of information, although most of it is repetitive. So I will close this MU by saying by vote populatity being 55:45 Falco's Favor.
Now, for the big big one. I have been waiting for this MU for a long long time, because I have my own theory on it which makes complete sense. I even tested my Theory on Phil and DD and they both agree. SO, Without further stalling... Our next matchup is...
Metaknight.
From this point let's break it down into sections so it is easier to manage.
We will first go with General Information, and then by stages. It is the current format we have always been using, but I would just like to point it out so people don't forget.
Phil and DD, Don't spoil my fun with this one. (I want to make my will of china text about this MU, and then you can help meh D=) So keep my theory out of it before I say anything plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz =D.
Go.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
^It's interesting, there's some parts I disagree with, but he really proved his point well, and I agree that it will make the MU much more doable onstage.
You gotta do a lot of AS camping, ftilt, jab, utilt (especially utilt), and your faster options help a lot.
I know this is something more player related, but especially against MK, don't commit to anything you know you can't protect reasonably, so learn to pace and walk in this MU, he's gotta approach, so you must learn to be patient, MK may be relatively safe, but there's a lot of options that Lucario can do to make it hard for MK to get in. I do have to say though, MK's ftilt and dtilt are like the only ground game he needs (besides grab of course).
Tornado can be canceled by Dair (hard to do), uair, nair, AS, and fsmash. Even so, we aren't really susceptable to getting massively damaged by tornado due to our slow fall speed.
MK offstage is really where you need to learn how to play though, if he's coming at you, do not try to AD into MK, your floaty physics allows you some leeway and room to hang around offstage, so learn to back away from a MK, and Dair stall when he tries an aerial, of all of the ones he'll use, only dair will be fast enough to compete, and the timing is strict if you wove away from him. Learn to SDI offstage, keep your finger on the analog ready to push up, MK will find it much harder to gimp you if you do these.
Be very careful around MK's knock off moveset, this is what lands most Lucarios in a -1 stock in the first place. You have to vastly outrange him in this, and make sure you learn to time your punishes appropriately, nothing's more frustrating than to attempt to punish MK only for him to shield it and dsmash or something.
MK fair is actually not all that it's cracked out to be, it doesn't control space nearly as well as Lucario fair, and it has more commitment to it. If you really want to make it hard, you can learn to SDI it (although it's really, really hard). Dash grab and ftilt when they throw you upwards should only scare you if you don't know how to deal with MK's Shuttle loop or Nair, these are important to learn how to deal with, failure to do so will get you offstage quicker and thus killed.
imo this is 40:60, I've seen Lucario's make due with what they've got onstage and have made MK really have to work at it to get them off the stage, MK really has a hard time dealing with a lucario who knows how to properly play the keep away game, and aura in itself becomes a huge problem for MK, even though he deals with it much better than the rest of the cast.
You gotta do a lot of AS camping, ftilt, jab, utilt (especially utilt), and your faster options help a lot.
I know this is something more player related, but especially against MK, don't commit to anything you know you can't protect reasonably, so learn to pace and walk in this MU, he's gotta approach, so you must learn to be patient, MK may be relatively safe, but there's a lot of options that Lucario can do to make it hard for MK to get in. I do have to say though, MK's ftilt and dtilt are like the only ground game he needs (besides grab of course).
Tornado can be canceled by Dair (hard to do), uair, nair, AS, and fsmash. Even so, we aren't really susceptable to getting massively damaged by tornado due to our slow fall speed.
MK offstage is really where you need to learn how to play though, if he's coming at you, do not try to AD into MK, your floaty physics allows you some leeway and room to hang around offstage, so learn to back away from a MK, and Dair stall when he tries an aerial, of all of the ones he'll use, only dair will be fast enough to compete, and the timing is strict if you wove away from him. Learn to SDI offstage, keep your finger on the analog ready to push up, MK will find it much harder to gimp you if you do these.
Be very careful around MK's knock off moveset, this is what lands most Lucarios in a -1 stock in the first place. You have to vastly outrange him in this, and make sure you learn to time your punishes appropriately, nothing's more frustrating than to attempt to punish MK only for him to shield it and dsmash or something.
MK fair is actually not all that it's cracked out to be, it doesn't control space nearly as well as Lucario fair, and it has more commitment to it. If you really want to make it hard, you can learn to SDI it (although it's really, really hard). Dash grab and ftilt when they throw you upwards should only scare you if you don't know how to deal with MK's Shuttle loop or Nair, these are important to learn how to deal with, failure to do so will get you offstage quicker and thus killed.
imo this is 40:60, I've seen Lucario's make due with what they've got onstage and have made MK really have to work at it to get them off the stage, MK really has a hard time dealing with a lucario who knows how to properly play the keep away game, and aura in itself becomes a huge problem for MK, even though he deals with it much better than the rest of the cast.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
All due respect, RJ.... that's complete and utter nonsense.
iRJi
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 2,423
I wish I could say its nonsense, but It is kind of true man lol. The reason why he is known as the best is because he has the best defense in the game as a character. Not taking it personal though, I expected responses close to this actually xD. So it begins.
manhunter098
Smash Lord
I think you are downplaying Metaknights approach ability a little too much, its far from spectacular, but compared to many characters, its still at least good. I would agree though that he is best at defending against an attacking or approaching opponent, and you should never jump into the ****.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
It's all relative.
Blood_Hawk
Smash Lord
RJ, you just posted stuff we already know. Attacking MK head on is suicide enough, but he can hold his own on the offensive quite easily. Play Dojo, M2K, Judge, or Tyrant and tell me MK can't approach. That statement is very lul worthy. MK can just dair camp our *** and we have no approaches to beat it out really. It's simple, MK has a butt load of fast, lagless, safe moves, and we have very little to combat it. Not to mention more aerial mobility than you can shake a stick at.
VS MK, you have to camp and hope you don't get hit offstage. Throw out random moves and hope they hit on top of AS camp his ***. Otherwise, grab your ankles and bend over. MK is easily our worst match up for obvious reasons. Anyone who doesn't think so is either disillusion or needs to play a REAL MK main.
VS MK, you have to camp and hope you don't get hit offstage. Throw out random moves and hope they hit on top of AS camp his ***. Otherwise, grab your ankles and bend over. MK is easily our worst match up for obvious reasons. Anyone who doesn't think so is either disillusion or needs to play a REAL MK main.