SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[Rayku]

Brinstar is an excellent stage to take falco to, it completely ruins his whole "stay away so ima shoot mah lazerz" and theres like 3 things on taht stage that eat up his lasers

Kismet bans Brinstar against me. Falco has no camping potential on this stage because his phantasm will make him die.

Brinstar is by far the best stage to take Falco to. Just make sure it counts, because every time you fight them from then on they will ban that stage.

 

[culexus・wau]

Kismet bans Brinstar against me. Falco has no camping potential on this stage because his phantasm will make him die.

Brinstar is by far the best stage to take Falco to. Just make sure it counts, because every time you fight them from then on they will ban that stage.

if a falco doesn't ban Brinstar.

most likely they're ready to switch if you go to that stage.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If you are falling, or in the air in any way, and you get hit by a laser, you will get upsmashed

If you are on the ground, and get hit by a laser, upsmash will connect with your shield.

Essentially proving projectiles are less useful against grounded opponents compared to aerial opponents.

Also,

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=251001

This thread goes over some of the power shield points I'm talking about. I advice people to read it.

 

[iRJi]

Essentially proving projectiles are less useful against grounded opponents compared to aerial opponents.

Also,

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=251001

This thread goes over some of the power shield points I'm talking about. I advice people to read it.

Hmm, That was interesting to read...

 

[F1ZZ]

I think for stages I would go Frigate. This stage could really do some damage for his recovery and therefore help Lucario win the match.

 

[Rayku]

I think for stages I would go Frigate. This stage could really do some damage for his recovery and therefore help Lucario win the match.

I agree. Frigate being one of the most neutral CP stages (opinion), and being a rather good Lucario one (I can argue this simply by saying Lucario can "ledge grab" where no other character can), I would probably take a Falco here if Brinstar were banned.

 

[G-Beast]

Kismet bans Brinstar against me. Falco has no camping potential on this stage because his phantasm will make him die.

Brinstar is by far the best stage to take Falco to. Just make sure it counts, because every time you fight them from then on they will ban that stage.

well, some won't... maybe they arent smart but the one falco i worry about in tournaments in my region is a DK main... and he dosent ban brinstar.... besides even if it is banned Norfair is still around(unless it's banned by the TO)

 

[Rayku]

well, some won't... maybe they arent smart but the one falco i worry about in tournaments in my region is a DK main... and he dosent ban brinstar.... besides even if it is banned Norfair is still around(unless it's banned by the TO)

Norfair is a garbage stage, and if I can't get it mutual banned by my opponent and I, I ban that without hesitation just because it's a horrible competitive stage.

Brinstar is a phenomenal stage for Donkey Kong, which is probably why he doesn't ban it

 

[phi1ny3]

I agree. Frigate being one of the most neutral CP stages (opinion), and being a rather good Lucario one (I can argue this simply by saying Lucario can "ledge grab" where no other character can), I would probably take a Falco here if Brinstar were banned.

Not to mention that the right moving platform makes phantasm really risky, because unless it's near parallel with the stage, he can either die from doing it or suffer from fallspecial lag, which allows for a free dair. That and laser camping is limited because of the dip in the middle on the second transformation, and forcing falco into the air is a little easier.

 

[culexus・wau]

If we're talking stages, The smaller the better, with Frigate as an exception.

BF/Yoshis/Lylat for your neutral CPs.

Castle Siege is decent seeing that Castle1 is very good if you can control the left side at the beginning.
Castle 2 gives you breathing space from lasers until he destroys them as well.
Castle 3 is more of falco's advantage... but sometimes you can crouch under the lasers there, it messes with IAP though.

Frigate is good seeing that the left side makes SideB risky and the stage flip falco needs to be in the middle to laser effectively which takes out SideB as an laser follow-up.

 

[F1ZZ]

If we're talking stages, The smaller the better, with Frigate as an exception.

BF/Yoshis/Lylat for your neutral CPs.

Castle Siege is decent seeing that Castle1 is very good if you can control the left side at the beginning.
Castle 2 gives you breathing space from lasers until he destroys them as well.
Castle 3 is more of falco's advantage... but sometimes you can crouch under the lasers there, it messes with IAP though.

Frigate is good seeing that the left side makes SideB risky and the stage flip falco needs to be in the middle to laser effectively which takes out SideB as an laser follow-up.

I disgaree with Lylat being a neutral CP, in any match I always ban it first. The reason why I say this is because this stage is so hard to recover one due to the ledge.

 

[G-Beast]

Norfair is a garbage stage, and if I can't get it mutual banned by my opponent and I, I ban that without hesitation just because it's a horrible competitive stage.

Brinstar is a phenomenal stage for Donkey Kong, which is probably why he doesn't ban it

the thing is, he told me that he is terrified to use his Donkey Kong on me because of how much ive been messing up his DK these days... i usually beat him on brinstar because he cane live long enough.... if i can get 1 force palm on his DK he is going to be at 50% after my combo'ing goes through... which is why im not afraid to pick brinstar

and if i cant pick norfair i usually go with battlefield... the platforms help with the lasers and its smaller then FD so he cant run as far

 

[Rayku]

and if i cant pick norfair i usually go with battlefield... the platforms help with the lasers and its smaller then FD so he cant run as far

I actually have a bit of a weakness with Donkey Kong myself, simply because I can't kill the ****er and he kills me with ******** Dsmashes

Battlefield is a good stage to take Falco. I do like that stage.

To add on the Frigate talk, in the second part of the stage, if they are in the dip and you are on the ledge, it makes it easier for you to aura sphere him and him not being able to reflect it.

To add to the matchup discussion:

One really big thing that I think everyone should do against Falco is not charge aura sphere all the way. This is such a mindgame, especially against a character with a 1-frame reflector at his disposal. I think I mentioned this the first time Falco was discussed.

 

[culexus・wau]

I disgaree with Lylat being a neutral CP, in any match I always ban it first. The reason why I say this is because this stage is so hard to recover one due to the ledge.

It hurts falco a lot more then it hurts us...

I've never had a hard time recovering the ledge here EVER so I don't know what you're talking about ._.

falco on the other hand...

 

[phi1ny3]

^Plus it wrecks his laser camping.

 

[Zucco]

Im glad I live in a region that doesn't have gay CPs, though I wish Jungle japes was legal sometimes.

hmm ive never brought a falco to lylat for some reason, better try that out next time.

 

[iRJi]

Im glad I live in a region that doesn't have gay CPs, though I wish Jungle japes was legal sometimes.

hmm ive never brought a falco to lylat for some reason, better try that out next time.

Really? Falco sucks there, how did you not do it yet XD.

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh, and if anyone tells you that stage CPing doesn't really matter in this game they're a scrub, I learned the hard way at GC to learn your MU's worst CPs (especially Diddy, I FORGOT TO BAN FD BAAAAAAAA). I actually had a close match on that stage, but I got ***** on Frigate for some odd reason.

 

[iRJi]

This is upsetting me LOL. I think we all should go play some falco's this weekend(Good ones) and come back with some videos. I am going to play Bleachego this weekend, and upload the vids.

Lets talk stages since we are leaning on that right now anyway.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This is upsetting me LOL. I think we all should go play some falco's this weekend(Good ones) and come back with some videos. I am going to play Bleachego this weekend, and upload the vids.

I can help with this. Arty is in my area and recording the match shouldn't be that hard.

 

[culexus・wau]

Yeah we're not getting much done <<

I'll see if I can get play any falcos at triple threat, if not... blah..

just know that this match-up is worse on paper then in practice really.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Part of it is how realistic it is in practice and how well people can do it.

Even with Snake vs MK, MK's Ftilt still outranges Snakes Ftilt on paper buit in practice Snake just has a much easier time spacing and hitting with his compared to MK.

With Lucario the question is how well things work in practice when done correctly. Can Lucario interrupt phantasm well with most moves, are some moves better to use than others? This is something people need to learn in practice with some people are unsure how easy and/or well these methods will work.

I have done some of these things in practice so I know they work, except pivot grab, but some people are still listing method I really haven't thought about doing.

This MU does sound kind of bad on paper, but really it's pretty even if you ask me. 50:50.

The thing is, people need to go out and prove it, which people like myself haven't done.

edit: Also Arty agreed so it looks like if I can record it, everything should go well with that.

 

[IceDX]

ill try getting up a match or two , my reaction time has been a bit low lately so i dont know how good ill do agaist phntasm i hope it goes well tho...

and my take on stages:

good cp:

brainstar
frigate orpheon
lylat cruise
castle siege

the bad

FD
smashville
green greens

best neutral not counting lylat would be yoshis

 

[Zucco]

Really? Falco sucks there, how did you not do it yet XD.

Because, I am stupid when it comes to CP stages. YOU WERE THERE WHEN I CHOOSE FD AGAINST ROOKIE AT NO MAPS! O well, I learn something new everyday.

ill try getting up a match or two , my reaction time has been a bit low lately so i dont know how good ill do agaist phntasm i hope it goes well tho...

and my take on stages:

good cp:

brainstar
frigate orpheon
lylat cruise
castle siege

the bad

FD
smashville
green greens

best neutral not counting lylat would be yoshis

green greens is still legal in places?

 

[iRJi]

Because, I am stupid when it comes to CP stages. YOU WERE THERE WHEN I CHOOSE FD AGAINST ROOKIE AT NO MAPS! O well, I learn something new everyday.


green greens is still legal in places?

Ya, That was funny xD

 

[IceDX]

Ya, That was funny xD

yeah it is over at TJ since well the player that know bout it dont abouse it and the rest well u know

 

[BleachigoZX]

From the Falco Backroom (I posted this a while back)

After CG %'s you have to focus on keeping Lucario directly above you. (Utilt/Throw) This way you can bait Dair's by 'Triangle Jumping' (You know what that means right?) You punish those Dairs with Bairs (Does not matter which half lands too, worse case scenario = you powershield his Utilt)

I'm pretty sure I don't have to tell you to camp. But when you are close beware him attempt to catch you out of a short hop with a dash grab.

Also I try doing a lot of the shortest AAA combo to aggravate the player.

Alright before anything I realized you read the SuSa guide on why projectiles are bad and whatnot, but I strongly disagree with that topic (even though I <3 SuSa) because Lasers are broken:

-Transcendent
-2 in 1 jump
-IT FORCE'S A DEFENSIVE OPTION.


My View in the Match-up (Thanks RJ, Zucco, and PatG for all the exp.)

Falco/Lucario is a odd match-up because Lucario has really weird hit boxes that out prioritize Falco's but are noticeably slower. Lucario's aerials are very easy to punish is you react accordingly, though Falcos are too.

Both characters are good good at edge guarding [each other only because of thier mediocre recovery], but Falco has more options getting back as long as he gets patient and not flashy like I would do. Picking something like Ftilt or Fsmash is easy to avoid so be careful.

Falco straight up camping is really bad for Lucario too, I can picture Falco just backing out of all of Lucario's rush options and just getting a few lasers before being forced to pick something defensive. Lucario can do some really stupid combo's out of Dash Attack though. It sets up for sooo many bad situations in low %'s it dumb, but a lot of it has to do with where you walk to after it connects.

Phantasm has only 3 hurt-able areas the cancels points, but Lucario actually does well countering this and I won't say how. (Ugh, fine...Usmash, Ftilt, and Dash Attack.)

Both characters are good at killing each other and Lucario's Aura is something to fear when a Falco gets too far ahead in looking for a kill. A lot of unsafe options can lead to death, such as hitting the shield of the opponent. But Falco can Usmash OoS a lot more things like the Jab string, Ftilt, and Uptilt.

Aura sphere is a very good tool when edge guarding (Except when I phantasm through Zucco's 180% AS or Ninjalinks Fsmash), because it force a defensive option and thats not good for Falco (Fallspeed).

Oh dair is easy to punish don't spam it. It's like the most looked for aerial when playing against Lucario. Bair ***** it and can lead into more bad situations depending on when it connects, especially around platforms.

Uthrow is really good on small stages, but not with platforms, because you are under us and it's really easy to take advantage of Falco.

I can't say much on actual stages because I'm very favored towards the Neutrals and I don't know how to play anywhere else.

55:45 Falco


You might find the way I view things odd, because I play very random and I only remember reallly situational crap. I might come back to post more too, I just had to do this twice and really got lazy with it.

 

[Rayku]

This is upsetting me LOL. I think we all should go play some falco's this weekend(Good ones) and come back with some videos. I am going to play Bleachego this weekend, and upload the vids.

I do play against a very good Falco player, who, IMO, is the best in the country. He doesn't camp like he should, but he still beats the crap out of you regardless. He's also my favorite black man <3

He goes by Kismet

The only reason I'm contributing to this discussion is because of my experience against him.

Good counterpicks...well. I'm always bad about counterpicks. I don't really try to go to a stage where it's bad for my opponent, but a stage that is good for me. These would include

Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island

Basically any stage where Lucario can either live longer or outlast his opponent, and have more of a recovery opportunity than his opponent.

 

[iRJi]

Thank you Bleachigo. Finally some solid input. People who missed his post, read above ^^^^^

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Alright before anything I realized you read the SuSa guide on why projectiles are bad and whatnot, but I strongly disagree with that topic (even though I <3 SuSa) because Lasers are broken:.

To be fair, I was more interested in the frame trap, safe zone parts more so than the which projectiles are garbage part. I do agree with Susa on how projectiles are less useful at higher levels of play when people can react better, but it doesn't change that laser's are still good projectiles.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah Falco has a lot of baiting stuff that works, dair is weakened in utility if you don't anticipate and assume it will hit him, his jump mobility is reallly good vertically (hence why you get "wtf" bair power).
Oh and MikeHAZE powershields like a beast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RacJvj-_nqA

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Oh man you can slide that much with Powershielding?

...

Someone please tell Vex to get the rising DAir vid ready soon. Seriously, I did not think about the potential of PS and then rising DAir. I know I've done a rising DAir via powershielding.

Edit: Er-hem anyways back on topic...

Yeah it seems like we're so happy using our DAir that it just sets us up so easily to get BAired by Falco. If we air dodge he might be able to try another BAir or NAir.

What about... Reverse Aura Sphere?

Oh and of course the AS priority data.

Falco:
Fsmah:79(19)
bair:117(22)
dair:117(22)
usmash:129(23)

Unless you're crazy AS won't be used much in this match-up. When you do have it charged up it will serve as a great mindgame.

Let's say you bait a BAir and Falco does it. At killable percents you should have a 22+ Aura Sphere charged up. Hooray for B Reversals.

 

[hichez50]

Well I guess every lucario could learn how to shield walk. But even that gets impractical. Baiting only works if you fall for the bait.

 

[phi1ny3]

PS walking only gives that slide because Marth's walk has a lot of slide, hence why he can "HAZE walk" all over the place.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Well still even if its not much we still get a little slide out of it as I remember PSing and Air Walking (I'm calling rising DAir this from now on because it sounds cooler) once and I thought it was a fluke.

 

[hichez50]

I thought you could only use air walking(lol) when you get hit.

 

[phi1ny3]

Or out of major shieldstun.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Nono. I think I said it was very hard to do out of hings with little shield stun. Like I suggested that you could do it against Falco's Jab, but it wouldn't be a very good idea because you'd just jump into his rapid A.

You should be able to do this against everything that has shieldstun.

Seeing as the timing is tight and its even tighter to do it. I think it'd be better to first practice agaisnt moves with greater shield stun then we can move onto the moves that require Melee reflexes.

 

[Alus]

Air Walking (I'm calling rising DAir this from now on because it sounds cooler)

It should be called "Air Stomping".

Air Walking is misleading and doesn't sound cool anyways. Because it's walking.

 

[tedward2000]

It should be called "Air Stomping".

Air Walking is misleading and doesn't sound cool anyways. Because it's walking.

Or call it Wind Walking
or Aura Step

or just: (the) Luc Juke.
-t2