SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[phi1ny3]

That's the issue, it's his statement.
It literally says "MK can't approach", which I think he means "MK can't approach as well as he can defend", which can also be used when "approaching" lucario. It's up to definition.

 

[Rayku]

The one and only game I ever played with Mew2King, he rushed me down like I had never been rushed down before.

I got him down to his last stock, high percents.

Seems logical, but Metaknight is by no means an "all defense" character. I'd imagine 70% defense, 30% offense.

But seriously, **** some Metaknight discussion in our Lucario boards.

Also, @BloodHawk: I -highly- disagree that Metaknight is Lucario's worst matchup. I believe that goes to Snake/Dedede (they're both equally bad). This is just my opinion, though.

 

[Blood_Hawk]

The one and only game I ever played with Mew2King, he rushed me down like I had never been rushed down before.

I got him down to his last stock, high percents.

Also, @BloodHawk: I -highly- disagree that Metaknight is Lucario's worst matchup. I believe that goes to Snake/Dedede (they're both equally bad). This is just my opinion, though.

For one, M2K screws around in friendlies. That's a known fact. I played a ton of friendlies with him this past weekend and he was shaky the first match allowing myself to get him down to 1 stock, but literally almost 3 stocked me every time after he got the match up down. Good luck even getting a chance to recover against that guy. He knows the match up, trust me.

D3 and Snake are not harder than MK just somewhat more stupid cause you have to camp harder to win. You can recover against both and camp the crap out of both. MK is on you like white on rice as soon as you are off-stage and has the aerial mobility to keep you there as long as he wants provided he doesn't screw up. Lucario can do very little to get back on stage. MK's aerials are better than ours, and if we are forced to X-speed, he has it won already. Wall Cling is useless and is just asking to get stage spiked, so I hope you are good at teching, cause you better be ready to anytime you expect to get away with using one. You have to worry about MK in the air and on the ground.

Snake and D3 live to amazing percents. Snake can KO you retardedly early and D3 can CG you. That's the only hard thing about both of those match ups. Both require you to be in close, but if you play the match right you should be nowhere near close quarters combat for either match up. D3 CANNOT grab you if you don't let him. Lucario has more than enough ways to avoid being close to D3 due to having a superior projectile and the fact you can easily stay out of grab range for most of the fight if you know basic spacing. Only way you are getting grabbed is if D3 tricks you with a pivot or catches you on landing. Any other grab he gets off, you deserve due to a mistake and or stupidity. D3 is pretty easy to trick offstage too due to his poor horizontal mobility while edge guarding. Much easier than MK who can go horizontal or vertical at a whim while edge guarding.

Snake is hard I'll admit, but he cannot KO Lucairo easily if you don't get in close. I play both chracters and have been on both sides of the match up. It's not as hard to beat Snake as you think. If you camp him, unless you are Ally there is little he can do since BAS messes up grenades and stops them and or causes them to go boom in Snake's face. Keep him in the air and never approach him when he's grounded. Snake is kinda hard to get onstage against, but he won't be jumping out after you all the time, he will most likely set traps while hugging the edge. It's a lot easier to wall cling against him too, cause he will be very reluctant to jump offstage to stop you.

 

[iRJi]

Edit: Nvm, its not worth it. Phil, I need you to take over the thread for a couple weeks. I am going out of town tomorrow. The next matchup's after MK is wario. See yall in 2 weeks =].

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

For one, M2K screws around in friendlies. That's a known fact. I played a ton of friendlies with him this past weekend and he was shaky the first match allowing myself to get him down to 1 stock, but literally almost 3 stocked me every time after he got the match up down. Good luck even getting a chance to recover against that guy. He knows the match up, trust me.

He runs around Smashville popping the balloons.

M2K doesn't play super serious in friendlies is the truth.

 

[RT]

Overall: MK is a character that is top tier for a reason. He has very good priority, fast attacks, multiple jumps with a large number of recovery options, and can easily gimp most characters with his superior aerial game. He also has the ability to airstall/plank every other character in the game, but most places have rules to limit this. With that being said, MK's weaknesses are that he lacks moves that kill at lower percents compared to other top tiers and is somewhat light.

Breakdown of moves:
Mach Tornado: New players dread this move for a reason. It's makes MK untouchable for certain characters. However, Lucario has ways to get through the tornado. AS and fsmash can break through tornado. There are other moves that can break through, but they require more precise spacing and timing. Recall that the hitbox for tornado virtually surrounds MK on both his sides and bottom, so the only exposed part is the top. Even then, MK's hurtbox is in the middle of the tornado, so you'll need a move with range in order to reach him. Moves such as nair and dair can break through, but you must have precise spacing in order to do so. If caught in the tornado, try to SDI out. If you can't do it immediately, at least SDI to avoid the last hit, because the last hit has knockback. If you can avoid the last hit, it's possible to punish the MK with a move.

Drill Rush:This move is rarely used for attacking and used more for recovering. The hitboxes are positioned in front of MK giving him protection against most attacks. Once again, AS can go through this move. MK is vulnerable from the top, bottom, and rear, but if an MK is using this for recovery, you'll rarely be able to take advantage of these weak spots. If the MK is using this move to recover low, you have almost no chance of punishing it. Your best bet is to not get in his way.

Shuttle Loop: This is yet another move that is the bane of new players. Shuttle Loop comes in two variations: grounded and aerial. MK can glide attack after either variation. If MK cancels the glide correctly, it will have virtually no lag, so MK can retaliate with a move, usually dsmash. Grounded SL gets invincibility when if it hits something during the startup, which makes this move very good OoS. Aerial Shuttle Loop is a more dangerous move because it is used as a finisher for aerial combos and can result in quick death. It is possible to stop aerial SL with any number of Lucario's moves, such as dair, nair, fair, AS, etc., but the problem is knowing when the MK will use it. It's possible for the MK to bait your attack and then use it. It really becomes a guessing game, so just be ready. Also, watch out for an MK below the stage. It's possible for them to SL onto the stage and then cancel into another SL. SL will also be used for edgeguarding quite often, so you'll probably start to notice when an MK is going to SL. Also note that aerial SL has two forms of knockback depending on what part the MK hits you with. Unfortunately, it's hard to describe what part is the determining factor without a picture of SL, but you can go to training mode and figure it out.

I tackled the special moves, but I can do regular moves later...

 

[phi1ny3]

Same with MikeHAZE lol, friendlies are kinda funny, as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1VjCJGp9mM
Also, beware of MK dthrow, puts you in a really bad spot and gets a good amount of damage on you. Lucario luckily has dair so MK has to do more guesswork, but it's still a really nasty throw.

 

[F1ZZ]

Just adding to what RT said about MKs Nado:

You can also Dair the tornado to stop it but it needs perfect timing.

 

[Alus]

You gotta read bro.

 

[F1ZZ]

Whoops, I actually meant DT in post above.

Heres a video of it: (This is B+) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bZQ8ywDUtw It happens at about 3:45.

 

[Alus]

The first 0.000000000000005 seconds of me thinking about this was "Wow that seems legit on paper. MK probally can't shield it, and he doesn't eat your shield."

Now I am thinking many things.

Am I a nub?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I find this match-up to be fairly even to be honest. I've played it many, many times and I don't agree that this match-up is supposed to be more difficult than Snake or King Dedede. I hate numbers but if I had to choose it'd be somewhere between 45/55 and 4/6 although leaning more to the former. The stage matters a lot but I'll get into that later.

I don't think being all campy is the best way to beat MK. It depends on the way the MK plays but I find it misleading to tell somebody to play campy in general. There are many situations in which it's worth trying to be agressive for the purpose of trading hits - as long as you're not about to be killed it's usually better for Lucario. There's literally no point in shield camping if the MK chooses to dair camp into tornado a lot. The little amount of damage you'll receive from a dair and the Aura boost you gain from it are a lot less bad than a low shield that can be stabbed by more dangerous moves. If you manage to intercept him with a well spaced fair or uair it's even better. Overall I'd say that you can be aggresive against MK if you're (1.) not about to be killed and (2.) if he's in the air. In those situations I usually try to trade hits and deal damage.

If the MK is on the ground I prefer to camp. Approaching a grounded MK isn't a good idea because his Nair OoS deals a lot more damage than you want to take and it's large hitbox and little startup lag make it very easy to hit with. If the MK is on the ground I try to make him approach with uncharged aura spheres. If he chooses to approach through the air I try to trade hits again (practise is the key here). Otherwise he'll approach on the ground. If he dashes towards me I use Pivot Grab - it beats MKs dash attack and his dash grab. If he walks he'll most likely tries to ftilt or dtilt me. In that situation I find it fairly easy to keep him away with fsmash.
If MK is in the air, I try to be in the air too trading as many hits as possible (all aerials work depending on the situation). If he's on the ground it's better to camp and try to force him into the air. I try to stay in tha center of the stage most of the time because it makes it incredibly hard for MK to kill Lucario.

Good stages for Lucario are FD, FD and FD
Bad stages for Lucario are RC, LC, FO and BF

Yeah, CP stages are the biggest problem for me =/

It also seems to me that MK is able to UpB out of Lucario's AAA. Is this normal or am I doing something wrong? I know that MK can't do this against Wolf...

 

[phi1ny3]

If you're tapping AAA (as opposed to holding it) or if he DIs it, yes, he can SL.

 

[napZzz]

change diddy vs. lucario to 7/3 lucarios favor

stupid matchup is gay

 

[phi1ny3]

What Nappy? Did you try Diddy against D. Disciple? lol
Ever since I learned the AS trade, that was probably the only reason I did so well my first time I played a Diddy, now I just gotta get the insta-throw and stuff down like that.
It's sooo funny, the guy tried the banana peanut wall, and I'm like "dude, I have a projectile".
Still lost 1-2, but I almost won on FD second round actually lol

 

[napZzz]

diddy has no killing power. Lucario lives forever. Go ahead and do all you can diddy kong, because it doesn't matter when lucario kills you at 100% and lives till god knows what percent every stock making you rage

and yes, I played like 10 matches with him last week or something and it angered me beyond the point of words

 

[culexus・wau]

this is the MK rediscussion, not the diddy redicussion.

deal with tornado by mashing up on both sticks.


you'll come out and uair him with the *** hitbox.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah uair breaks tornado too.
Uair is also a good killer in this MU, especially if he guessed incorrectly and SL'd you, you can follow up with uair.

 

[Blood_Hawk]

Gheb pretty much nailed how you are supposed to play MK. Camp him when he's grounded and you can be a bit more aggressive in the air. Just never ever try to punish him with grabs.

This match up would be even IMO if it wasn't for MKs ridiculous offstage game, but due to that, it is not even in the slightest. Onstage, Luc is on par with MK for the most part. Offstage, bend over and take it. If you play someone like Dojo, M2K, Tyrant, or Havok, Lucario DOES NOT recover no matter how hard you try. The only times I ever get on stage against any MK of that caliber is if they miscalculate and mess up the edge guard. If you want to win, you have to be careful and minimize the times you are caught offstage, which against MK, is quite the chore.

As for counterpicks, the only stages I find it even bearable to play MK on are FD or Smashville. FD preferred but they usually ban it. Plats give MK a great advantage and anywhere else, MK can exploit the stages far better than Lucario.

 

[Kitamerby]

Same with MikeHAZE lol, friendlies are kinda funny, as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1VjCJGp9mM
Also, beware of MK dthrow, puts you in a really bad spot and gets a good amount of damage on you. Lucario luckily has dair so MK has to do more guesswork, but it's still a really nasty throw.

I ****ing hate Dthrow and Meta Knight's dash grab.

Seriously, MK's dash grab to dthrow is by far the biggest problem I ever have with Meta Knight using any character. It's so ****ing hard to react to.

God I ****ing hate Meta Knight's dash grab. **** that move. He can even grab our fsmash oos with that mother****er. Hell, he can even grab a tipper fsmash by powershielding to dash grab.

Then once you get grabbed, you always know what's coming up: a Dthrow. I ****ing hate this move. This move is so ****ing stupid. It lasts forever so you can wallow in your guilt of being grabbed, then you have two options: Be COMPLETELY open to short hop aerials as a TRUE COMBO and maybe get offstage at a high angle, or get offstage at a very horrible angle and be in prime position to be followed up or gimped. It's completely lose-lose, but there's one saving grace: DI'ing forwards requires committed followups and is generally limited to dash grab, dash attack, and Tornado. If you're on stage, and luckily his Dthrow won't send you offstage (you're a lucky man), it's usually best to DI away from him because if you DI towards him/up, he can short hop aerial of his choice or Shuttle Loop ON REACTION as a TRUE COMBO. He generally can follow up dthrow even if you DI away from him, but he has to predict you DI'ing away, and thus must begin giving chase immediately after throwing you if he wants to follow up quickly. This means that technically, you have like a 50:50 chance of escaping with only the 12-18% tacked on by the dthrow+pummels. In reality it's more like 45:55 or 35:65 because on-stage, it's usually safer to DI away and eat a dashing followup anyways, and if he's smart, he'll know to switch up between predicting an away-DI and waiting when you DI towards/up.


TL;DR version. MK's dash grab is a ****ing pain. His Dthrow can be DI'd up and towards him, or away from him (which can very often send you offstage). Up and towards is followed up by waiting, then using a short hop aerial or shuttle loop, and away is followed up by immediately giving chase with a dash attack, another dash grab, or a tornado. Away-DI followups are completely committed, so if you can trick him into thinking you'll DI away and DI up instead, or vice versa, you may escape with only the damage of the dthrow+pummels.

Oh yeah, and DI Uthrow away from him if he tries to kill with it and you won't die from it until like 190 unless it's on a high platform like Battlefield, and even then you should live pretty long, maybe 140 or so.

Bthrow is DI'd upwards if you didn't do that already. Fthrow is DI'd away if you can DI quick enough (It's fast as hell, like our Fthrow), but you'll probably never see Fthrow unless the MK is sneaky and knows you're preparing to DI a Dthrow into him, as it puts you in an even worse position than a Dthrow DI'd towards him if he does this with you DI'ing up and into him.

God I hate his dash grab.


Anyways, a funny thing about short hop aerials. Fsmash beats them all. MK can't short hop over our Fsmash. If you fight a dumb MK who loves short hopping his aerials, use Fsmash to smash him away.


Also, it might help to remember at some times that MK's air speed is SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWww. He has the third worst air speed in the game, barely above Luigi and below Ice Climbers. This means that his followups in the air are usually pretty limited if he doesn't force you to come to him (AKA when gimping and he's between you and the stage). This pretty much only means that if he's high in the air and bats you away, he probably won't be able to followup, so you can sort of rest easy knowing that, I guess.

On a side note, I think we should start having some recommendations on what to do vs dumb players along with the ultimate-tourney-winning-super-pro strategies. Most of the characters you find are played by decent or only pretty good players after all, many with little experience against Lucario, so it might be pretty good to know some strategies, like how inexperienced MKs often jump into our fsmash trying to short hop aerial, or how Falco mains looooove to try to "combo" their uair out of either their dair or their Phantasm, which almost always leads to them being star KO'd by our own Dair, or the super amazing mindgame of Fsmash whiff to Aura Sphere.

 

[phi1ny3]

If you're letting MK PS a fsmash, you aren't taking advantage of strutterstepping and the "slight charge" rule. After I learned those, fsmash became a bugger for MK to punish.
You have to watch out for using fsmash on a grounded MK anyways because he can ftilt you with the third hit out of it (I think even at max range).
Dash grab is a doozy, but if you use camping techniques properly you can make it really tough for him to grab you, just make sure you switch between air and ground carefully, otherwise you could get sent off the stage just like that .

 

[RT]

Gheb pretty much nailed how you are supposed to play MK. Camp him when he's grounded and you can be a bit more aggressive in the air. Just never ever try to punish him with grabs.

This match up would be even IMO if it wasn't for MKs ridiculous offstage game, but due to that, it is not even in the slightest. Onstage, Luc is on par with MK for the most part. Offstage, bend over and take it. If you play someone like Dojo, M2K, Tyrant, or Havok, Lucario DOES NOT recover no matter how hard you try. The only times I ever get on stage against any MK of that caliber is if they miscalculate and mess up the edge guard. If you want to win, you have to be careful and minimize the times you are caught offstage, which against MK, is quite the chore.

As for counterpicks, the only stages I find it even bearable to play MK on are FD or Smashville. FD preferred but they usually ban it. Plats give MK a great advantage and anywhere else, MK can exploit the stages far better than Lucario.

This is pretty much correct along with Gheb. Staying onstage is like the most important part of the matchup, because once Lucario is offstage...it's not going to be fun. But if the MK doesn't gimp you, then you can payback all the damage MK dealt with interest.

 

[phi1ny3]

I've actually seen Lucario make it a lot more than people here make it sound, but it usually comes at the cost of at least 25% or so (especially landing onstage, MK has that crazy speed to actually catch lucario and hit him with a nair or something), but once your onstage, even if you get knocked to the other side, you pretty much won the gimp battle, and he now has to deal with you onstage for the most part. imo Lucario offstage actually has a better chance than marth for the most part, having a hurtbox to your recovery means little to an MK that knows how to time a ledgehog well, we have a better momentum cancel, more options, live longer, and have a much better second jump.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Kitamerby, if you really have that much trouble with his dash grab then you should use more Pivot grab. You can basically do it everytime MK dashes towards you and it's very safe. I actually think it's Lucario's best move on the ground next to fsmash in that match-up. It basically beats everything Fsmash doesn't beat.

 

[phi1ny3]

Utilt is also pretty good, especially since our shieldgrab range is lame.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

MK starts to plank/aircamp, now what?

And dair isn't going to solve it for us 100% of the time.

 

[Rayku]

Blood Hawk, I disagree with about 90% of the stuff you said, but I'm not going to argue. My opinion is that Dedede and Snake are his hardest matchups, that's all I'm going to say. It's really a pointless argument.

Also, I know M2K fools around in friendlies. I was just using that as a reference to Metaknight's aggro playstyle.

 

[phi1ny3]

aircamp is easier to deal with imo than planking.
Planking has some sort of restrictment that helps, in that case, I would go "Raaaaawr!" to the referee to get him over there.

 

[iRJi]

Blood Hawk, I disagree with about 90% of the stuff you said, but I'm not going to argue. My opinion is that Dedede and Snake are his hardest matchups, that's all I'm going to say. It's really a pointless argument.

Also, I know M2K fools around in friendlies. I was just using that as a reference to Metaknight's aggro playstyle.

Correction: Jason fools around in friendlies if you are bad. If your not really a threat, then he won't care. If he actually is sandbagging anyone, it's a big insult lol. If anyone gets close to him in the friendly he will take is serious.

Edit: My plans have been canceled. So i am staying.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The problem lies when you have a TO or ref that doesn't agree and allows it.

Or to be more reasonable, lets say they play really defensive and wait until the last two minutes to plank to try and get around the ledge grab rule.

The, "calling the TO over" method will work 95% of the time. I'm just worried some people won't know what to do during those 5% times it won't.

 

[iRJi]

My past post on this MU.

Ok. Metaknight matchup. Easy enough.

MK. Annoying. Hell, he is almost the most annoying character in the game due to the fact that he only has about 1 bad match up(lol). But even then it doesn't stop lucario from taking first in the matchup. the matchup is in Metaknight's favor but not by much, and its 100% possible to win.

Metaknight has alot of gimmicks and tricks. From Uair chains to Nado spamming. First off I would like to explain how to stop his glide attack. Metaknight's glide clashes with almost everything if it hits with another move. If you see a metaknight go for a glide attack you have 2 ways to stop it.

1) When MK sweeps in with the glide attack, jump and fair first to clash out his glide, then use Dair to hit him.

2) Jump and Dair. The first hit of dair will clash out the swing of his glide and the 2nd attack of Dair will hit Metaknight.

Use those tatics to knock out his glide attacks normally and out of shuttle loop.

Avoid going under metaknight. His down air will sweep you due to its long range vertically and horizontaly. His fair beats out your fair and your Bair will trade with is fair, so if you see him going to fairs for spacing or even just to rush you space backwars and bair him. Avoid jumping at him directly while he is on the ground. He will shuttle loop and hit you. Use AS and BAS a lot more for this match, but avoid over camping. Metaknight can get in very fast and easy.

I learned yesterday while playing m2k that for this matchup your F-Smash can and will be punished in many ways. Hell, if you Fsmash and MK blocks it, He can dash grab you -_-. That one was tested and proven. lol. Your F-smash beats out Nado and a fully charged AS will also beat nado out. Keep that in mind because thats one of MK's openings. If you see a MK nado close to you but near the ground, Roll dodge out! Its a trap. Metaknight has no lagg after tornado if he stays near the ground, he can attack out right out of it with anything faster then your moves (which btw is almost all of his moves) Best thing to do is just move out the way. If he Nado's you but is above you putting pressure on your shield, When the nado is done either Utilt or grab him before he lands. If he nados past you do not chase him, for he will punish you also.

This is something I can not stress enough. For this matchup, Do not try to gimp him -_-!!!!!

**** Metaknights... Gimping bleh. One Dair will kill you off map if you are trying to return to the map. Try to recover high if you see him try to gimp you, and try to save your jump if you know you can make it back to the map without using it (making it to the ledge does not apply, since he is fast enough to edge hog you while returning)

Use tilts a lot more in this match. You need to be fast. His down tilt is on frame stupid and it trips so try to either jump in the air or roll out the way.

One thing about metaknight is that he lacks on kill moves. His downsmash will be used so it will be stale when it comes to the point on which he needs to kill you. DI up for this smash. His only 2 decent kill moves other then downsmash is Shuttle loop and F-smash. Shuttle loop will be used a lot also for the matchup so it will also be stale. the only real thing you need to worry about is F-smash. (While you're on the ground anyway)

The matchup is No more then 60-40 Mk. I can also say that it may be 55-45, but that may be pushing it a bit.

I find it important to take what you knew before, and compare it to what you know now. A good comparison makes a good way to learn how you have improved from the past to now. I will write my current one for this day and age later. I just waned to post this one, even if the information is inaccurate.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If Mk gets Dsmash happy, try and predict and shield, it has -19 frame disadvantage on block. This means you have enough time to Ftilt, jab, Utilt, Dtilt, grab, FPG.

 

[Rayku]

Correction: Jason fools around in friendlies if you are bad. If your not really a threat, then he won't care. If he actually is sandbagging anyone, it's a big insult lol. If anyone gets close to him in the friendly he will take is serious.

Edit: My plans have been canceled. So i am staying.

I think you should refer to him as "Mew2King" instead of implying how awesome you are that you know him. That's the only reason I can see that people refer to him as "Jason" online.

Either that, or I'm just salty that my name is Jason too, so you're just hyping me up unnecessarily.

 

[iRJi]

I think you should refer to him as "Mew2King" instead of implying how awesome you are that you know him. That's the only reason I can see that people refer to him as "Jason" online.

Either that, or I'm just salty that my name is Jason too, so you're just hyping me up unnecessarily.

Naa, I call him Jason because calling him M2k is kind of lame, ESP that his name was a mistake for him picking mewtwo in melee, thinking that he was a good character. Nothing to do with "how awesome I am that I know him"

 

[D. Disciple]

I'll post my 2 cents on this, after my tourney tomorrow.

 

[phi1ny3]

Hay guyz, just wanted to tell you the real reason Corneria is banned:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBL5GqXbmuU

But if it isn't, CP it against any MK, hurhur.

 

[Rayku]

Naa, I call him Jason because calling him M2k is kind of lame, ESP that his name was a mistake for him picking mewtwo in melee, thinking that he was a good character. Nothing to do with "how awesome I am that I know him"

Why is it lame? That's the exact same thing as calling any smasher by their gamer tag.

 

[iRJi]

Why is it lame? That's the exact same thing as calling any smasher by their gamer tag.

Yea, but As other smashers I don't call them by their tag if I personally know them. That goes for anyone xD

 

[iRJi]

Double posting.

Lets not forget that we need to finish this xD

 

[phi1ny3]

Let's go onto stages.

Then again, MK does well on all stages minus like FD lol.