SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[Aurasmash14]

also, when discussing stages, try to also mention some gay tricks or stuff luc can abuse in said stage and not just stuff like, YI is good becuz wallcling.

 

[culexus・wau]

We beat him in the air in terms of priority.

Fair and Nair are ****ing godsends in this MU omg.

I REALLY don't like Fsmash in this match-up.

I primarily use it to bait,punish landing lag, or set-up a wall.

most of these are bad/easy to get around as wario.

Uptilt and Ftilt are amazing anti airs for Full/Short hops respectively.

if Fsmash hits you far away don't try to run up and shield grab as he can sidestep/jump away before you can [although you can bait the Sidestep and grab him out of that, takes some timing tho]

for wario being an ungrabable god I really do get quite a few grabs VS him even Vs good warios <<
weird considering our grab range but whatever, Ircc we can get Upsmash if we GR him at the edge but I'm not sure.

This MU becomes dangerous at [assuming 8 Minutes]

6:30-6:10

5:00-4:40

3:30- 3:10

2:00-1:40

0:30-0:10 <- wario will just time you out by then most likely <<

that means he gets it 5 time at the most.

FC waft is 1:51.729 seconds

so after 1:50 seconds you can take a breather.

keep that eye on the cloooooooooooooooock.



Also YI is a very good stage for this MU as wario has trouble approaching us with the platform in the way,
and he doesn't have much space to run away.

if they don't ban it, you get FD ^_^.


I don't know this match-up too well personally... but I try to take a more reactionary playstyle VS wario.

 

[iRJi]

I am giving this too tomorrow, and then we are moving on. I have to say that people are serous forgetting about this, and it's sad because it is almost done. Stage selection for C/P's and MU numbers please.

 

[F1ZZ]

55:45 Wairo, it seems 50:50 is pushing it.

 

[culexus・wau]

50:50.

shifts to lucario slight advantage with more knowledge of the MU and is wario slight advantage with no experience with the MU.

its a pain having to catch up to wario so don't lose that 1st stock.

I find this MU harder then snake if we die 1st....







oh and stages.

Yoshis Island
Final Destination
Smashville

keep it simple with little or no platforms.

 

[hichez50]

With wario is right where is should be. If you jab or uptilt at any of this ground attacks except a well spaced forward smash you will out speed it or be able to punish it. In this match-up I find that getting on back on stage is the hardest part. With his air mobility you cant get on the stage without getting hit. I find it impossible if the wario is playing aggressively in this scenario.

 

[culexus・wau]

We might've gotten more wario help if it said WARIO instead of metaknight y'know.

 

[DMG]

Wario beats Lucario IMO. With a solid enough lead, Wario can time him out on a lot of stages. I've talked to Lee Martin about it and we've played both sides of the matchup together, and I believe we both think catching Wario as Lucario is pretty hard. As for a number, 60:40 seems about right. 55:45 is the absolute best for Lucario, Wario definitely has a tangible advantage in this matchup.

 

[culexus・wau]

On a stage like battlefield and maaaaaaaaaaaybe SV [or worse]

I can see logic like that happening.

on a simpler stage though I believe lucario can give wario plenty of trouble.

unfortunately wario does have the amount of positive stages in his favor so...

it'd make sense to give it 45-55 wario advantage, I don't believe its 60:40 at all << but what I do I know I'm a scrub.

 

[DMG]

Ask RT, Pictochat is bad. Lylat is too, Lee knows and will tell you that stage is less than favorable for Lucario.

I suggested 6/4 overall because the CP stages tend to favor Wario over Lucario, with Wario having the slight edge or going even on the neutrals.

 

[Rayku]

and I believe we both think catching Wario as Lucario is pretty hard.

I don't know if you remember me from Genesis, but I don't think this statement could be more true.

55:45 seems perfect for the matchup.

 

[DMG]

!!!

I do. You were the Lucario player I played in Pools. I was kinda off running time on you, but no johns you did get me at the end with that Uair. I crossed over too early back to the stage.

... You're also the reason I got second seed instead of First lmao. MalcolmM too good though.

 

[iRJi]

55:45 Wario favor it is.

Moving on.

Next Matchup is Diddy.

Go.

 

[hichez50]

I dont even know where to start. Well first off if you cant pick up the nanner with a rising aerial just dont try to win. I think 50-50 or 55-45(diddy) is more appropriate. Diddy air game is lacking bu if anyone has played one of the top 5 diddy's they know they their ground game is all they need. They dont even have to use the naner and they still make a solid charater.

 

[dawall250]

if you get a nanner, its generally better not to throw it at diddy, cuz they are far more adept at handling them than you are. i like to z drop them or throw em behind me, so they have to get through me to get the nanner, and lucario's quite good at making a wall of aura that's a pain to get through.

diddy's main issue here, like always, is a lack of killing power, which really strengthens lucario. with di, fsmash is hard to kill with, and then what's left is dsmash and fair? i may be missing one or two other kill moves, but those three are usually the ones i see kill. one of their most solid dsmash set ups is jumping over you to dropping/throwing a nanner down and then dsmashing. knowing some kill set ups would be good so that we know certain situations to avoid.

 

[hichez50]

dsmash set ups is jumping over you to dropping/throwing a nanner down and then dsmashing. knowing some kill set ups would be good so that we know certain situations to avoid.

Do you know hos hard it is to avoid every nanner? If you get hit a nanner past 120% your dead. I find that you cant no yot around with diddy if you miss your change be prepared for the worst.

Also if possible just throw the nanner off while diddy is a close range but cat hit you. That way he won't have time to grab another one. Some diddys like to stay well stocked.

 

[dawall250]

its hard, but not impossible either (if you shield the hit and he grabs you, throws aren't killing you for a while), and getting hit by a nanner at 120% implies immediate death only if diddy's got complete stage control. you have to make sure the diddy does not set up his nanners on the stage to his advantage. its all about stage control, if you can keep diddy from placing the nanners where he wants, then you're doing well.

 

[ArcPoint]

Unless you're in a really bad position, you shouldn't die at 120 when you trip (Maybe a Dsmash when you're against the ledge, with you DIing down).

Against Diddys I just usually throw the banana up if I'm on the ground, it makes it so that he'd have to go in the air to get it right away, which I feel Lucario has the advantage in the air because he beats out a lot of Diddy's stuff.

Also does Lucario have a particularly long tripping animation? I know Wolf's is longer than usual and he gets hurt by it. Just curious. Yeah, what Dawall said, stage control is very important.

Oh, and is there anything Lucario could do when he gets hit by banana while he's in the air but close to the ground? A diddy would always do that to me, and I would always get grabbed because I couldn't do anything fast enough. Seemed like Nair or dair didn't work (The two fastest things I could think of), and airdodging would mean that I get grabbed anyway. So I had to start airdodging to the ground beforehand, which left me kinda vulnerable. =/ Any way around that?

 

[DMG]

Nope, no way around that. Only thing you can try to do is DJ or SDI the banana hard.

 

[RT]

Diddy should be killing you until at the very minimum high-140 percents. Diddy lacks solid killing moves, but his strength lies in his ability to lead into killing moves with bananas. Also, Lucario's trip animation is about medium, so Diddy can combo/banana lock with relative ease.

I've played two very good Diddys, Fliphop and Gnes, and I believe it is definitely in Diddy's favor. 45:55 at the very least, maybe more.

 

[iRJi]

No no no lol, its not in his favor.

Diddy's game inside compared to lucario's isn't as good. His inside game however, is still good, so don't underestimate it. here is the first rule of the MU. If you get a nanna, toss it off the map. Don't play with it, don't toss it at him, just ASAP toss it off the stage. The thing to keep in mind is this: Diddy's nanna pull is about 20 frames, why wouldn't you want to abuse a move that takes 20 frames to use? The objective is when you get the nanna's off, stay close to him. By doing so, he is forced to fight and he is not going to try pulling out a nanna, unless he is expecting to get hit. People overestimate diddy's kill power. Fsmash is lawl DIable. I want to say that about 75% of the time you should not be getting hit by the 2nd part of his Fsmash. His Dsmash, is also weak in terms of kill power. You should consistently live to about 170 or more in this MU. His recovery isn't that good either. The thing about any type of flip, is that it has a set distance. Because of that, you can decide where he is going to go and punish. During the middle of the flip, he has invincibility frames, and also he can turn the flip into a grab. The way to handle this is to always space yourself to where the flip is ending, and use a move that out ranges the attack at the end if he decides to attack. If he is doing it off stage where you can't punish it, just wait onstage and see if he going to go for the ledge or the stage, and then react accordingly.

I am going to take this right out of ADHD's mouth. He hates the MU because of diddy's lack luster kill power and range in comparison to Lucario. For him, it is very hard to kill Lucario because of his weight, and because of that survivability we can retaliate and kill diddy at earlier percents then expected.

So, with all of that, my number is 55:45 Lucario.

Also, I had an issue come up before when people were telling me to play good people, and then they will see how hard things really are. I don't remember the person, but it was in the MK MU. I've played Dojo, Tyrant, Spammer, and M2k. Infact, I've known M2k Personally for a while. So to just bring this up and kill it softly before any arguments arise: Try not to comment on what players I have played against, It is most likely by far past anyone you have played overall.

Also, For future preference, I am going to note my MU experience and who it was by. For Diddy my MU experience comes from ADHD. He is a close friend to my crew, and is over to practice with us a lot during crew practices. I will also try to get ADHD to post his view's on the MU, but there are no guarantee's for this.

Edit: I am going to comment on something everyone should know about the nanna's later, but i have to go for now.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I missed Wario, but I agree on the ratio and input given.

I actually think vs Diddy is in Lucario's favor and is his easiest top tier match-up. You have to play patiently and more emphasis on air game rather than ground game.

I'm glad I play Link, I learned how to Z-catch and Z-drop easily this helps for bananas.

 

[Kitamerby]

Do you know hos hard it is to avoid every nanner? If you get hit a nanner past 120% your dead. I find that you cant no yot around with diddy if you miss your change be prepared for the worst.

Also if possible just throw the nanner off while diddy is a close range but cat hit you. That way he won't have time to grab another one. Some diddys like to stay well stocked.

If you get hit at 120 you're dead if you have bad DI.

Remember that Diddy can't kill for crap. <<

I still think that the matchup is 55:45 our favor, but meh. I don't have enough experience with the matchup myself against "amazing" Diddy players.

 

[ArcPoint]

Yeah, it's definitely not on Lucario's favor. Even? Some people could make a case for it. 6/4 Diddy? Again, some could make the case, but I think Diddy's lack of killing power + Lucario's strength when he gets higher up really puts a hold on the advantages Diddy has. That and Lucario can stay in the air for a while with his slow fall speed and Dair shenanigans.

Edit: iRJi made a pretty convincing post =) I say it's even ish.

 

[culexus・wau]

Get rid of the bananas asap

Don't play around with Glidetoss backwards -> fsmash.

Don't throw them in the air

Don't throw them at Diddy

Just get rid of them AFAP.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I've found throwing his bananas to the other side of the stage rather than throwing them off the stage to be better of an option.

If you throw them off stage this lets Diddy pull out new banana's, but if you can separate him from them, then he can't use them nor can he get new ones. So he's left with using his tools without Banana's, which Lucario's are much better.

 

[culexus・wau]

Banana pull is punishable.

and if they're pulled towards you they're slow as hell so Z catch them and throw them off immediately.

 

[RT]

Wait, I don't know why people are assuming a Diddy will pull a banana NEAR you. They should, you know, run away and do it. And Diddy runs faster than Lucario. So, unless the Diddy is pulling a banana at point-blank range for mindgames or for lulz, you'll never be able to punish it. <_<

Any item-based techniques (Z-catching, glidetossing, instant-tossing, etc.) can help with the matchup. Lucario's banana game isn't so good, but there are still some things you can pull off if you take the time to learn some tricks.

EDIT: Also, just curious, when was the last time a good Lucario beat a good Diddy in tourney? I honestly cannot think of any recent matches. Lee Martin loses to Fliphop and Gnes consistently unless he CPs a different character.

 

[Gea]

There are better things to do with Nanners than just throw them off. If you can control one, it leaves him with less tools. The whole idea is to force the Diddy to approach. Diddy wants you to approach so he can play a defensive "wait until you do something and punish" game.

Good Diddys will bait you a few ways. Popgun, pulling nanners in the air (you approach, they fair, bair, flipjump), a nearby nanner that they want you to think they want (you attack towards it thinking they are going to attempt to pick it up). Essentially, by throwing a banana off of the stage you're wasting frame and the Diddy can just back up and pull another on most stages.

Don't throw it at him. If you throw it down in front of you, he is going to try to pick it up with a dash attack more than likely, be it throw his other first or just run and dash attack. If you toss it down and stay in front of it, you can aurasphere/fsmash wall and he can't safely roll. Getting close and z dropping into fairs is cool.

The more you play with bananas the more you see ways to use them safely and impede Diddy's progress.

Mind you people saying he can't kill that while he has to be careful of you at high %s, if he gets close he can glidetoss down into a downsmash. Unless you're on a large stage, it isn't that bad of a killer that is *comboed* into.

I really think this is a match where you have to get the first kill to win, moreso than other matches. The thing that I think is being forgotten by you Lucario mains most of all is that you are a character of lingering hitboxes. In some matchups this is amazing because it is a great defensive tool that baits people. In this matchup it means if you use a smash, you get a banana and maybe a few moves or a grab.

I'd say it to be fairly even, with Diddy's edge due to stage choice and ability to control the stage better than you.

 

[hichez50]

If you get hit at 120 you're dead if you have bad DI.

Remember that Diddy can't kill for crap. <<

I still think that the matchup is 55:45 our favor, but meh. I don't have enough experience with the matchup myself against "amazing" Diddy players.

I was assuming it was fresh. Good diddy kong don't use dsmash that often. Espcsially since its an easy kill when set up with a naner lock.

Don't throw it at him. If you throw it down in front of you, he is going to try to pick it up with a dash attack more than likely, be it throw his other first or just run and dash attack. If you toss it down and stay in front of it, you can aurasphere/fsmash wall and he can't safely roll. Getting close and z dropping into fairs is cool.

This is a great idea and it sometimes works but I find it only works once per game. Some diddys use the popgun to bait and are patient. Others will run the the edge of the stage and perform a glide toss and then simply dash attack or grab. This does limit diddy's options though.

 

[phi1ny3]

AS is really, really helpful in this MU imo.
As in learn the semantics behind using it in this MU.
People also forget that Diddy has a meh gimp game, which helps Lucario's chances in this MU as opposed to someone like MK or Snake with really strong edgeguarding/gimping ability.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

EDIT: Also, just curious, when was the last time a good Lucario beat a good Diddy in tourney? I honestly cannot think of any recent matches. Lee Martin loses to Fliphop and Gnes consistently unless he CPs a different character.

Praxis beats G&W's consistently with Peach, yet Peach is at a disadvantage.

 

[DMG]

The difference being here that most players would assume that Lucario either goes even or has a slight disadvantage to Diddy, instead of Lucario beating Diddy. Which would somewhat follow the results.

 

[iRJi]

I was assuming it was fresh. Good diddy kong don't use dsmash that often. Espcsially since its an easy kill when set up with a naner lock.

Even with it fresh its not going to kill you that early =]

 

[culexus・wau]

There are better things to do with Nanners than just throw them off. If you can control one, it leaves him with less tools.

Honestly,


The whole point is to not let diddy have the bananas.


There are some diddy players that are easier if I try the "Diddy is attracted to bananas theory"

and there are some where throwing them off outright is better.

ussually its the latter that helps more often <<





OH and another thing to note

some diddies save Fair to kill in this MU and it trades with fair so be careful of that.

 

[iRJi]

Wait, I don't know why people are assuming a Diddy will pull a banana NEAR you. They should, you know, run away and do it. And Diddy runs faster than Lucario. So, unless the Diddy is pulling a banana at point-blank range for mindgames or for lulz, you'll never be able to punish it. <_<

Any item-based techniques (Z-catching, glidetossing, instant-tossing, etc.) can help with the matchup. Lucario's banana game isn't so good, but there are still some things you can pull off if you take the time to learn some tricks.

EDIT: Also, just curious, when was the last time a good Lucario beat a good Diddy in tourney? I honestly cannot think of any recent matches. Lee Martin loses to Fliphop and Gnes consistently unless he CPs a different character.

The first point of what you said is what I am getting at. If you toss off the nannas, and get close, he is not going to pull any nanna's out.

I am also aware that diddy does run faster then lucario, but a 20+ frame move is stil la 20+ frame move. If you were to stay on him, you can still grab the nanna a little more then 1/2 the time before he gets back into the neutral state to retrieve it.

Even if you not in range, the concept stays the same. Get rid of the nanna, and stay on him xP

 

[Gnes]

No no no lol, its not in his favor.

Diddy's game inside compared to lucario's isn't as good. His inside game however, is still good, so don't underestimate it. here is the first rule of the MU. If you get a nanna, toss it off the map. Don't play with it, don't toss it at him, just ASAP toss it off the stage. The thing to keep in mind is this: Diddy's nanna pull is about 20 frames, why wouldn't you want to abuse a move that takes 20 frames to use? The objective is when you get the nanna's off, stay close to him. By doing so, he is forced to fight and he is not going to try pulling out a nanna, unless he is expecting to get hit. People overestimate diddy's kill power. Fsmash is lawl DIable. I want to say that about 75% of the time you should not be getting hit by the 2nd part of his Fsmash. His Dsmash, is also weak in terms of kill power. You should consistently live to about 170 or more in this MU. His recovery isn't that good either. The thing about any type of flip, is that it has a set distance. Because of that, you can decide where he is going to go and punish. During the middle of the flip, he has invincibility frames, and also he can turn the flip into a grab. The way to handle this is to always space yourself to where the flip is ending, and use a move that out ranges the attack at the end if he decides to attack. If he is doing it off stage where you can't punish it, just wait onstage and see if he going to go for the ledge or the stage, and then react accordingly.

I am going to take this right out of ADHD's mouth. He hates the MU because of diddy's lack luster kill power and range in comparison to Lucario. For him, it is very hard to kill Lucario because of his weight, and because of that survivability we can retaliate and kill diddy at earlier percents then expected.

So, with all of that, my number is 55:45 Lucario.

Also, I had an issue come up before when people were telling me to play good people, and then they will see how hard things really are. I don't remember the person, but it was in the MK MU. I've played Dojo, Tyrant, Spammer, and M2k. Infact, I've known M2k Personally for a while. So to just bring this up and kill it softly before any arguments arise: Try not to comment on what players I have played against, It is most likely by far past anyone you have played overall.

Also, For future preference, I am going to note my MU experience and who it was by. For Diddy my MU experience comes from ADHD. He is a close friend to my crew, and is over to practice with us a lot during crew practices. I will also try to get ADHD to post his view's on the MU, but there are no guarantee's for this.

Edit: I am going to comment on something everyone should know about the nanna's later, but i have to go for now.

Okay lets see...firstly i believe the matchup is 55-45 diddy's favor. I've played and beaten Lee Martin, Trela, and Rockettrainer. I don't know how they stack up on the lucario rankings though. With that said...

Firstly, Naners will be a constant problem. Lulu's f-smash is pretty much a free naner combo, and dair is simple to smash DI out of and punish upon Lulus landing. Yes diddy's nana pull is 20 frames, yet its even hard for mk to punish if he does it right...which is either at the ledge or at a aerial height/position where the naners will shield him from attacks. Also...diddy does not have invincibility frames in the middle of the flip, the invincibility frames are actually somewhere in the near beginning of the move, but i don't know exactly where.

Next...diddy should not be using the flip in a distance to where it cannot grab you. Thats just wrong, and will get punished everytime by every chr. The thing with this matchup is, yes Lucario will live long, AS does every chr. diddy plays against, however, can lucario safely pressures diddy shield up close, no. Can he kill diddy easily, no.

Praxis beats G&W's consistently with Peach, yet Peach is at a disadvantage.

Praxis loss to UTD Zac, and matchups can and do change. However, high level tourney results reflect Lucario being on the losing end of the matchup

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The difference being here that most players would assume that Lucario either goes even or has a slight disadvantage to Diddy, instead of Lucario beating Diddy. Which would somewhat follow the results.

I'll address this below.

Okay lets see...firstly i believe the matchup is 55-45 diddy's favor. I've played and beaten Lee Martin, Trela, and Rockettrainer. I don't know how they stack up on the lucario rankings though. With that said...

Firstly, Naners will be a constant problem. Lulu's f-smash is pretty much a free naner combo, and dair is simple to smash DI out of and punish upon Lulus landing. Yes diddy's nana pull is 20 frames, yet its even hard for mk to punish if he does it right...which is either at the ledge or at a aerial height/position where the naners will shield him from attacks. Also...diddy does not have invincibility frames in the middle of the flip, the invincibility frames are actually somewhere in the near beginning of the move, but i don't know exactly where.

Next...diddy should not be using the flip in a distance to where it cannot grab you. Thats just wrong, and will get punished everytime by every chr. The thing with this matchup is, yes Lucario will live long, AS does every chr. diddy plays against, however, can lucario safely pressures diddy shield up close, no. Can he kill diddy easily, no.

I'm pretty sure last time we discussed this MU, everyone who has experience in the MU agreed Fsmash was a terrible move if Diddy has a Banana.

Dair is safe if spaced correctly, even with DI.

I agree with the Nanner pulling, if pulled correctly Lucario will have to work around it. Lucario can try and bait it and fire and AS or stay close to try and punish premature pulls, but for the most part punishing the pull isn't easy.

Praxis loss to UTD Zac, and matchups can and do change. However, high level tourney results reflect Lucario being on the losing end of the matchup

The match-up never changed in that situation.

Praxis has a long track record of beating G&W's consistently. UTD Zac is an exception to this and I guess Valden's with his close victory.

Despite Praxis' track record people still agreed it was G&W's advantage.

Does still hold up well for Lucario? Not so much, but the point of it is showing that even at Top levels of play, results can be misleading to the actual ratio of the MU. They still are good representations of the MU don't get me wrong, but they can still lead to problems.

 

[DMG]

Top Level results can be misleading for matchups that's quite true. I've pointed that out a few times in various random places about me and Marth specifically. It's more common for the character with the matchup advantage to have better results in that matchup than the other guy. Praxis doing well against G&W or me doing well against Marth is like an exception to this, where tournament results seem to indicate one thing while "on paper" or "agreed on by most good players" something else is indicated.

For Diddy vs Lucario, the results point at least slightly towards Diddy having the upper hand. The majority of people I have talked to think it's either even or Diddy's favor. That's different from Praxis beating G&W where people pretty much agree that G&W beats her/goes even, or me with Marth where it's pretty much a given Wario loses. If tournament results say one thing and the people say another, then you have to look at the tournament results a lot closer and compare it to what people think about the two compared and see why things turn out different. Do people need to go with the tournament results because they show us the truth, or do tournament results need to go backseat to what people inherently feel about the characters?

Now if tournament results suggest one thing, and the majority of people also follow suit with a few who do not, it's much harder for those few to prove their case. They can't use results to sway opinions/prove their points. There it becomes arguing about the characters and proving their point, which as mentioned earlier is also hard to do without some results backing it up somewhat. Proving Lucario beats Diddy, even slightly, is much harder to accomplish than proving Marth beats Wario or G&W beats Peach where results suggest something different.

 

[Browny]

i refuse to believe lucarios dair is easily punishable by SDI'ing it to escape and hitting him out of the lag. whether its possible is irrelevant, its possible to tech Lucas's usmash into the ground, but unless you can honestly do it on a regular basis in a tourney match, its pointless to bring up something so rare.

lucarios mis-spacing the dair such that only the hitbox side edge hits you doesnt count either, thats like saying DDD's uair is easily punishable if he doesnt actually hit you with the hammer, just scrapes the side which allows you to escape it. This seems to be the only example i know of on youtube of someone escaping it.