SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[DMG]

I can SDI Lucario's Dair and escape on a regular basis in a tournament setting. It's not that hard to do honestly.

The real problem is that people don't see how immensefully useful SDI is, even on the little things like jabs and hence they don't try to SDI things until it is too late/when they are aware that they might die to said attack.

 

[Browny]

but does you being able to do that affect the matchup?

If I watch endless videos of tournanment level lucarios against other top players, how often am I going to see it happen? Because thats what I do, almost every live stream and video of a top lucario, I watch it if I can.

The current tally is at 1, and that was part of the second clause I stated before.

 

[DMG]

Well like I said in my post, part of the problem is that people don't realize "Oh hey, I can SDI out of Lucario's Dair and punish him IF I PUT IN THE EFFORT AND DO IT". Most people know you can SDI his Dair. Not everyone, but a lot of people are capable in game of SDIing his Dair. Out of those people, the ones who actually do so? Impressively low. It doesn't matter how much you know about SDI if you don't even attempt to seriously implement it in those instances (SDIing out of Lucario's Dair for example. I hear all the time people saying they know you can SDI out of it, but how many of them actually do it in tournament? Small number.)

If everyone spread out started SDIing important moves and kill moves, not only would the community benefit and start seeing some more interesting situations develop, but it will also show people to not just accept what is going to happen, to do everything in your power to shape your situation into something more favorable.

MK's Fair and Ftilt are obviously SDIable. How often do you see good players SDI it? I'm sure I can find videos of M2K vs Ally where Ally doesn't SDI the Fairs or Ftilts. Honestly, it's a shame that more players don't utilize SDI into their game. Using SDI whenever possible, even on the little things in Brawl, changes EVERYTHING. Almost every jab setup you can think of from any character, now magically gone. Dangerous kill moves when landed on an opponent in the air, now becoming less lethal. Pseudo Combo's avoided better. SDIing under the stage from above it to tech at absurd %'s. Etc. These are things that people can accomplish when they actually think and try to SDI, but honestly it's clear people don't do it enough.

Reliably SDIing Lucario's Dair, for most characters, does in fact make the matchup more manageable. If you are above them and their shield is small, they could care less about you shield poking them with Dair since they can SDI away from you and punish it. Also think about this: Say you are higher up in the air, and they jump/rise to chase you. What's stopping them from just rushing in and attacking you? If you intercept them with Dair, they SDI out and hit you anyways. If you don't, you either get hit anyways or you are forced to try and airdodge to the ground. That could potentially be lethal on Lucario if he becomes a character with no good landing options.

 

[Praxis]

Praxis has a long track record of beating G&W's consistently. UTD Zac is an exception to this and I guess Valden's with his close victory.

Despite Praxis' track record people still agreed it was G&W's advantage.

I think you misunderstood my post. A lot of Peaches now say G&W and Peach are EVEN, because of my track record and tournament results. I disagree with this and continue to say G&W beats Peach, but about half the Peach boards now considers it an even matchup as a result of my own accomplishments.


And UTD Zac hit me with a 9 at 30% on the last stock third game D:

 

[Browny]

Ah i remembered...

This whole 'lucarios dair is no longer a threat' thing irks me because why cant you apply the same argument to i dont know... diddys fsmash? given diddys fsmash hits for longer shouldnt it be easier to SDI it? can we discount that attack in the MU now if we discount lucarios dair?

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario dair is hard to SDI, and I'm not saying it out of bias. Frame 4 and really tight to SDI is tricky, it can be done, but the only time people tend to SDI dair is when the Lucario is using it like spam. Those that have almost never punished me, which makes me really wonder what frame advantage dair has. The fact that it's SDIable is very true, however, if the Lucario is using it after fair like he should or for punishing, it makes it tough for a human opponent to SDI dair consistently, especially considering that SDIing dair makes nair, another mixup after fair, much easier to land another move, such as a grab or even FP. In other words, Lucario dair by speed and how tight it is might be borderline humanly impossible, people debate that Pit fsmash is borderline impossible, and that's a frame 5 move with a ton more windup in between hits. Not saying that it is, but I really want to see more people SDI lucario dair more often and consistently before it becomes "problematic", and even then I really want to test the advantage dair has since it's like framewise a fair with one frame extra in cooldown and a first hitbox that lasts almost as long as fair, which is a move that most can't break out of anyways (unless they have a stupid "combo breaker" nair, which I'm sure could punish dair after a good SDI). I've even landed jabs/tilts after the dair first hit, but I want to test it for myself.
I'm not saying dair isn't SDIable, I'm saying that it's a bugger of a move that the Lucario needs to learn wisely though in order to use more effectively, but once he does, this becomes near impossible.

Edit: RJ knows what happens when a good player learns to SDI stuff really well, like jab for instance *coughAllyhackwheeze*

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Top Level results can be misleading for matchups that's quite true. I've pointed that out a few times in various random places about me and Marth specifically. It's more common for the character with the matchup advantage to have better results in that matchup than the other guy. Praxis doing well against G&W or me doing well against Marth is like an exception to this, where tournament results seem to indicate one thing while "on paper" or "agreed on by most good players" something else is indicated.

For Diddy vs Lucario, the results point at least slightly towards Diddy having the upper hand. The majority of people I have talked to think it's either even or Diddy's favor. That's different from Praxis beating G&W where people pretty much agree that G&W beats her/goes even, or me with Marth where it's pretty much a given Wario loses. If tournament results say one thing and the people say another, then you have to look at the tournament results a lot closer and compare it to what people think about the two compared and see why things turn out different. Do people need to go with the tournament results because they show us the truth, or do tournament results need to go backseat to what people inherently feel about the characters?

Now if tournament results suggest one thing, and the majority of people also follow suit with a few who do not, it's much harder for those few to prove their case. They can't use results to sway opinions/prove their points. There it becomes arguing about the characters and proving their point, which as mentioned earlier is also hard to do without some results backing it up somewhat. Proving Lucario beats Diddy, even slightly, is much harder to accomplish than proving Marth beats Wario or G&W beats Peach where results suggest something different.

And this proves a fallacy in my argument.

I'm trying to use character tools over tournament results to justify an advantage.

I think you misunderstood my post. A lot of Peaches now say G&W and Peach are EVEN, because of my track record and tournament results. I disagree with this and continue to say G&W beats Peach, but about half the Peach boards now considers it an even matchup as a result of my own accomplishments.

I don't see how it's a misunderstanding.

This is exactly what I was trying to show. The character with the disadvantaged MU is winning it and people think she's even because of it.

People know better and see G&W still has an advantage.

And UTD Zac hit me with a 9 at 30% on the last stock third game D:

D:

Well like I said in my post, part of the problem is that people don't realize "Oh hey, I can SDI out of Lucario's Dair and punish him IF I PUT IN THE EFFORT AND DO IT". Most people know you can SDI his Dair. Not everyone, but a lot of people are capable in game of SDIing his Dair. Out of those people, the ones who actually do so? Impressively low. It doesn't matter how much you know about SDI if you don't even attempt to seriously implement it in those instances (SDIing out of Lucario's Dair for example. I hear all the time people saying they know you can SDI out of it, but how many of them actually do it in tournament? Small number.)

If everyone spread out started SDIing important moves and kill moves, not only would the community benefit and start seeing some more interesting situations develop, but it will also show people to not just accept what is going to happen, to do everything in your power to shape your situation into something more favorable.

MK's Fair and Ftilt are obviously SDIable. How often do you see good players SDI it? I'm sure I can find videos of M2K vs Ally where Ally doesn't SDI the Fairs or Ftilts. Honestly, it's a shame that more players don't utilize SDI into their game. Using SDI whenever possible, even on the little things in Brawl, changes EVERYTHING. Almost every jab setup you can think of from any character, now magically gone. Dangerous kill moves when landed on an opponent in the air, now becoming less lethal. Pseudo Combo's avoided better. SDIing under the stage from above it to tech at absurd %'s. Etc. These are things that people can accomplish when they actually think and try to SDI, but honestly it's clear people don't do it enough.

Reliably SDIing Lucario's Dair, for most characters, does in fact make the matchup more manageable. If you are above them and their shield is small, they could care less about you shield poking them with Dair since they can SDI away from you and punish it. Also think about this: Say you are higher up in the air, and they jump/rise to chase you. What's stopping them from just rushing in and attacking you? If you intercept them with Dair, they SDI out and hit you anyways. If you don't, you either get hit anyways or you are forced to try and airdodge to the ground. That could potentially be lethal on Lucario if he becomes a character with no good landing options.

Miracles can happen with SDI.

Other factors need to be considered in how reliable it is to SDI out of certain moves.

The Frames of the move. If a move has low start-up and cool down it's harder to punish and SDI. The move comes out on Frame 4 and end on frame 10 for the first hit, then the second hit comes out on frame 13 and end on frame 22. The move ends on frame 34.

So you need to SDI on frame 4-13 allowing 9 frames of SDI. Except human reaction time is 8 frames at the fastest. Meaning to SDI correctly you need to predict the move correctly to get in those 9 frames of SDI. So if Lucario is using the move predictably then you can foresee a hit of Dair and SDI out for a punish.

Spacing is important seeing as it determines how many frames people need to SDI out correctly.

Really I can see SDI having huge potential seeing as many players barely scratch the surface of what you can do with it, but at this writing moment, unless I see more players consistently using it punish moves like Dair, I can't fully see it as a valid argument for moves being unsafe.

edit: Phil beat me to it, :/.

 

[Kitamerby]

SDI.

Not all characters are as tiny as your overweight munchkin. D:

 

[iRJi]

Lucario dair is hard to SDI, and I'm not saying it out of bias. Frame 4 and really tight to SDI is tricky, it can be done, but the only time people tend to SDI dair is when the Lucario is using it like spam. Those that have almost never punished me, which makes me really wonder what frame advantage dair has. The fact that it's SDIable is very true, however, if the Lucario is using it after fair like he should or for punishing, it makes it tough for a human opponent to SDI dair consistently, especially considering that SDIing dair makes nair, another mixup after fair, much easier to land another move, such as a grab or even FP. In other words, Lucario dair by speed and how tight it is might be borderline humanly impossible, people debate that Pit fsmash is borderline impossible, and that's a frame 5 move with a ton more windup in between hits. Not saying that it is, but I really want to see more people SDI lucario dair more often and consistently before it becomes "problematic", and even then I really want to test the advantage dair has since it's like framewise a fair with one frame extra in cooldown and a first hitbox that lasts almost as long as fair, which is a move that most can't break out of anyways (unless they have a stupid "combo breaker" nair, which I'm sure could punish dair after a good SDI). I've even landed jabs/tilts after the dair first hit, but I want to test it for myself.
I'm not saying dair isn't SDIable, I'm saying that it's a bugger of a move that the Lucario needs to learn wisely though in order to use more effectively, but once he does, this becomes near impossible.

Edit: RJ knows what happens when a good player learns to SDI stuff really well, like jab for instance *coughAllyhackwheeze*

=[. The fact he Bairs me out of it each time made me sad. On another note, I was playing this MK at a tourney yesterday and he consistently SDI'd behind me jabbing. Its starting to piss me off LOLOLOL.

Edit: Lets not forget the MU. Lol, keep talking about Diddy.

 

[Kitamerby]

=[. The fact he Bairs me out of it each time made me sad. On another note, I was playing this MK at a tourney yesterday and he consistently SDI'd behind me jabbing. Its starting to piss me off LOLOLOL.

Edit: Lets not forget the MU. Lol, keep talking about Diddy.

Who obviously loses to Lucario.

*watches Rockettrainer have an aneurysm*

 

[RT]

*has aneurysm*

X_X

 

[hichez50]

I think this all goes bad to what DMG said somethings work better on paper than in a real match. While SDI is practical on dair now many people even know that it can/should be done. Lack of knowledge is what seperates great players and the best players. After you achieve a certain level of knowledge of the game your mindset has to be come more detailed(thats how I see it) you have to focus on certain elements of the game.

Back to the Diddy matchup I now think that lucario does have the advantage on paper but executing the right things to do for lucario is harder than the diddy executing the right things to do against lucario. I hope that last sentence made sense.

 

[PhantomX]

OK, I'm not going to lie. I usually disagree with DMG's random talking about SDI and hyping himself up and such in every character board, but in this case I agree with him. Dair isn't terribly hard to SDI. It's pretty obvious that Lucario is going to dair when he's above you, since it's his best aerial by far. Knowing it's coming is all you really need. I get out of them A LOT, unlike other less obvious aerials (from other characters, usually). It's still a great move to use b/c it has almost no end lag and Wario can't really punish it after SDIing, but we're safe from the knockback and thus have more options after you've used it.

Jabs are super easy to SDI as well, from pretty much every character. It just depends on what you get used to doing. A lot of it become instinctual with time and experience.

 

[ADHD]

U just do stuff n it wurk. 50:50

 

[D. Disciple]

u Just Do Stuff N It Wurk. 50:50

Qft !

 

[DMG]

Also, SDI frame windows are different than when a hit box starts and ends in a multi hit move. Say a move hits on Frame 8, ends on Frame 12. If you get hit by it, it doesn't necessarily mean you only have 3-4 frames to SDI. What you have to look at is the phase between when the game first registers you as being hit, and when you fly away in hitstun.

Take G&W's Bair for example. Each part of the turtle lasts for a short time before the next hitbox comes out. The reason it's so easy to SDI out of is because when it hits someone, it "lags" them for a really long time, giving them a huge window to SDI out of. If you really try, you can literally SDI completely out of G&W's Bair from any spot, on just the first hit.

Some moves end quickly/hit fast, but have a large window to SDI out of. MK's Ftilt is like that. It starts and ends very soon, but it's actually fairly easy to SDI out of if you pay attention and actually try because the SDI window the move has is huge.

 

[AllyKnight]

It's funny how DMG says about SDI, it's not liek I don't try to do it or other people, it's in fact very hard to do because example, I can SDI but what if he does UP B? I WILL DIE WHILE trying, so IDK how you think about SDI but it's not the best thing to do.

 

[DMG]

I didn't mean to single you out, I'm just pointing out that there are a lot of instances where top players don't SDI, and people view those a lot more than the instances where you do or assume you don't (I didn't say that you don't SDI or know the implications behind it, just that I can go on Youtube and find videos of you/ADHD/M2K/myself where we don't SDI stuff.)

 

[Rayku]

Too many purple names on this page. Makes me feel unimportant.

I think Diddy vs. Lucario is slight advantage Lucario, like I always have. Simply because I honestly think Lucario can camp Diddy Kong and use Bananas extremely well. Throw down a banana and B-air is basically a set kill at higher percents. Also, like most matchups, Diddy Kong can't really kill you whereas you can kill him pretty early.

I can reference my set with DMG at Genesis again, seeing as how I was at 220% and killed him at like...80

 

[DMG]

Part of it was how stale my Dsmash was, but yes it take awhile to safely kill Lucario as Diddy.

 

[Gea]

I've been bringing up Lucario's dair and SDIing out of the strong hit for awhile, to much angst of this board. Even if you don't get enough time to punish the dair, it basically resets both of you. It is only slightly more difficult than, say, DIing out of Diddy's fsmash, which is mentioned in this thread as a reason to why you shouldn't worry about his fsmash. Hypocrisy?

And 20 frames for the ENTIRE DURATION of a move that you can do while in the air is not that long. Think about it. It is essentially like doing an airdodge length-wise. For a player to react and rush in, the frames are tight. Dashing takes frames, jumping takes frames, and the actual attack takes frames. Yes, you can punish Diddy for pulling nanners, but not as consistently as it as being said, just like punishing Lucario's dair isn't as consistently done as mentioned.

Oh, and Phantom X = <3

 

[hichez50]

I think Diddy vs. Lucario is slight advantage Lucario, like I always have. Simply because I honestly think Lucario can camp Diddy Kong and use Bananas extremely well. Throw down a banana and B-air is basically a set kill at higher percents.
0

All that plus the fact that our air game is superior. Minus the fact we dont have a move that can spike with out the stage.

 

[Kitamerby]

It's funny how DMG says about SDI, it's not liek I don't try to do it or other people, it's in fact very hard to do because example, I can SDI but what if he does UP B? I WILL DIE WHILE trying, so IDK how you think about SDI but it's not the best thing to do.

Get the hell out of here when talking about SDI.

You SDI out of Samus's Uair with Donkey Kong. That's just not right.

So don't give us that crap. We all know that if MK up B'd, you'd SDI that all the way across the stage and tech the opposite ledge just for kicks. :\

 

[iRJi]

Stages anyone?

 

[dawall250]

neutral stage striking will lead to battlefield on most every occasion. of course, fd is banned. as for cps, lylat can work, but i'm not sure how great it is for lucario, rc really ruins stage control for diddy, but again, how much of an advantage does lucario get here? frigate could work, i've used it effectively against diddy's before, walls to stick to, one side without an ledge to mess with his recovery. I'm not too sure about any other good cp's for lucario.

 

[phi1ny3]

I've been bringing up Lucario's dair and SDIing out of the strong hit for awhile, to much angst of this board. Even if you don't get enough time to punish the dair, it basically resets both of you. It is only slightly more difficult than, say, DIing out of Diddy's fsmash, which is mentioned in this thread as a reason to why you shouldn't worry about his fsmash. Hypocrisy?

And 20 frames for the ENTIRE DURATION of a move that you can do while in the air is not that long. Think about it. It is essentially like doing an airdodge length-wise. For a player to react and rush in, the frames are tight. Dashing takes frames, jumping takes frames, and the actual attack takes frames. Yes, you can punish Diddy for pulling nanners, but not as consistently as it as being said, just like punishing Lucario's dair isn't as consistently done as mentioned.

Oh, and Phantom X = <3

I have never said Lucario's dair is unSDIable for the record, even from that original debate like 8 months ago. Any multihit is pretty much SDIable. The fact remains that there's not much gained out of doing it (PX even said Wario's unable to punish well if at all), I think there's too strong a frame advantage to really care about it, but I'd have to check the windows of Dair to see how hard it is, it doesn't seem too easy or useful because people would definitely be SDIing this move more often, it's relatively telegraphed and is a very good but predictable punisher. I think the fact alone that it's one of the most potentially damaging aerials in the game (22% at max aura) would be an incentive to learn it. I think it's definitely doable, but I don't frankly see much use for it (in fact I think there might be more hurt if it does occur) for SDIing dair, the only theoretically plausible people to punish dair imo are anyone with invincibility traits like Marth DS, and people with really fast nairs like Peach or Luigi.
The reason people talk about Diddy fsmash but don't talk about dair is that Diddy fsmash is frame 12, and the second if it connects is like 26, there's a huge difference between 4 and 13 and 12 and 26, especially if the DI direction of fsmash is also beneficial for dsmash/fthrow, his other kill moves. In other words, no, they aren't the same thing. Lucario dair is more in the league of snake ftilt with a more specific hitbox, the other issue is due to Lucario's lingering boxes meaning that the window becomes slightly more tight than the average multihit move.
I also want to stress dair as a tool vs. Diddy, it helps with banana picking and punishing attempts to penetrate. It isn't very effective in terms of actually nailing him (he might actually be one of the hardest to connect both hits with), but it still helps you stay in the air, and clear landing sort of speak, which are both useful against Diddy.
imo this is 50:50, or slightly in Lucario's favor. I'd have to play Felix to confirm more/change, but I'm sure of this, AS wrecks in both edgeguarding and Banana wars, disrupts a lot of his spacings, and Lucario is capable of capitalizing on Diddy's inability to kill, plus low cooldown on attacks makes it really tough for Diddy to capitalize on punishing, he really has to throw a banana while a move is happening, which is a risk with proper AS treatment. Diddy is actually imo one of the best MUs this high on the tier list for AS, it really shines in this MU if used properly.
For the Banana question, I would just defend one with Lucario's wall game, or throw it up/off. Depending on how long it's been around, that will determine whether you throw it off or up. Throwing a banana at him is usually a pretty bad idea, only use it as a "back pocket mixup" or if he's offstage, you can place one in front of you. Using the JC glidetoss forward would be suggested if you do want to throw one forward, as Lucario's regular forward glidetoss is non-existent.

 

[DMG]

Wario can punish it pretty hard actually lol. Free Uair or Fart (Fsmash too if you are closer to the ground when he does Dair and you SDI to the side instead of under it.) I think PX being modest about that.

Also, I have explained this many times:

"The reason people talk about Diddy fsmash but don't talk about dair is that Diddy fsmash is frame 12, and the second if it connects is like 26, there's a huge difference between 4 and 13 and 12 and 26, especially if the DI direction of fsmash is also beneficial for dsmash/fthrow, his other kill moves. In other words, no, they aren't the same thing. Lucario dair is more in the league of snake ftilt with a more specific hitbox, the other issue is due to Lucario's lingering boxes meaning that the window becomes slightly more tight than the average multihit move."

How fast a hitbox ends and how fast the second one starts does NOT matter in the big picture for SDI. SDI is inputted BEFORE that frame transition takes place.

Take G&W's Bair for instance. Each hit of Bair starts and ends fairly quickly. Definitely less than 8 frames IIRC. The reason it's easy to SDI his bair is because Bair leaves the opponent in a TON of hitlag (or whatever phase they are in when they SDI). They stay in that phase for quite awhile.

I think you guys are mistaking SDI as occuring while a move is transitioning. Most of the time (I'm sure there are exceptions), SDI takes place, then Hitstun takes place/the attacking character now finally starts to go into his next hitbox. So take Diddy's Fsmash for example. When the first hit is 12th frame and the second hit is the 26th frame, this doesn't mean that when you get hit by the first part, that while you SDI you pass by frame 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, etc. When the first part hits you, it "lags" and SDI takes place. After SDI takes place, you experience Hitstun and only HERE does Diddy start experiencing "frame 13, 14, 15, 16, etc".

So take Lucario's Dair for example. Let's say you hit with it, frame 4. Once you hit with it, Lucario stops. While he is stopped, the other guy can SDI for quite awhile. After a certain point, he cannot SDI and this is where he experiences hitstun. Right at this point, Lucario starts to move again. So now the character is in hitstun and Lucario swings his Leg for the second hit of Dair, frame 13 (I'm taking your word for it, the numbers sound right but I've not looked extensively at his frame data.) Now somewhere around here, the hitstun from the first hit wears off. Maybe right at the second hit, maybe a few frames after. The point though is that the other person recovers from the first hit faster than Lucario recovers from the entire attack. Sure the second hitbox may come out on frame 13, but it takes Lucario awhile after that point to fully recover and be able to move. It is in this window that characters can punish Lucario, which is safe to say it is at least 10 frames for the other character if not slightly more.

 

[phi1ny3]

I stand corrected.

Oh and Diddy naner pull is not going to happen very often at high level of play, the best that I can see being thrown out is AS since he's pretty much fixed in that animation, but most good Diddys will use dthrow/ftilt or fair to get you out so that they can pull some bananas out.

 

[Fogo]

Snip.

Nes noob died?? How?!

And Lucario does not have an advantageous MU with diddy IMO


GNES...

gnes...

gness...

He's like the candyman, say his name and he appears lol


Once he name searches he'll tell you why diddy > Luc.

 

[RT]

Gnes already did. I'm looking forward to play ADHD at Hobo 21...hype!

I'm...still not fully recovered from the aneurysm Kitamerby gave me...FD should obviously be avoided...Diddys usually hate Yoshi's Island...they usually don't like Brinstar...if Luigi's is legal, strike it...

Gah...*faints*

 

[Kitamerby]

Has anyone mentioned how horrid of a move Fsmash is against a Diddy onstage yet?


Quite possibly the most frustrating thing for me in this matchup is the fact that whenever I fsmash, I usually step on a banana because he moves forwards and I trip.

It's stupid as hell. I hate that single aspect more than Diddy's entire stage control game.

 

[phi1ny3]

I did take hitlag into Diddy's though, the second hit normally comes out on frame 23 iirc. Frame 26 is when the first hit connects before it.


Edit: I finally looked at my own frame data lol, people are wrong about lucario dair being frame 13 for the second hit, it's frame 11 for the second hitbox, and the first hitbox lasts from frame 4-7 or so. This might explain why, since that leaves a smaller frame window, correct?

 

[ADHD]

I fail to get energy to elaborate so.. it's 55-45 in lucario's favor. It's very hard to kill lucario, and we have to at 145. Now, imagine the stupid aura crap we have to deal with then. Otherwise, in all other aspects it's totally even.

 

[iRJi]

I think People are not on the same page about diddy's nanner pull when I tried to explain it. What I am saying is that the move its self is 20+ frames. I am not tech, saying he is going to pull it out next to you, because that would be a dumb thing to do. What I am trying to say is that since it takes a long time for that move to activate and to actually pull out a nanner, toss them off and stay close to him. People missed my sarcasm when I tried to say it the first time i guess. I was really just pointing out that if you get rid of them and stay on top of him, it forces him to play in close quarters. And w/o breathing room to pull out out safely, he is going to have a hard time keeping up.

I think its obvious that the diddy at that point is going to try and push you out to get a nanner, so use that to your advantage. Diddy's good moves that push people out a good distance are punishable, and that would be the time to punish and take control.

Anyway, stages.

Ban FD, Strike smashville always. YI is a good place to take him on a neutral, but it will most likely end up on Battlefield. That is good also, however.

CP's: Frigate and/or Brinstar would be your first options, it really messes up diddy's stage control abilities, while increasing yours. I personally hate Brinstar with Lucario, to the point were I think it is his worse stage, but I am just putting it out there that its a good stage to use against diddy.

Rainbow is also a good stage to go too.

As for getting rid of stages:

FD, and PS1 are the worse stages to take him too. FD for obvious reasons, but PS1 enables you to get wall locked by nanners, which is something you really don't want to happen. Smashville is also in more of diddy's favor then Lucario's.

Edit: Ty ADHD for coming xP

 

[Gnes]

Too many purple names on this page. Makes me feel unimportant.

I think Diddy vs. Lucario is slight advantage Lucario, like I always have. Simply because I honestly think Lucario can camp Diddy Kong and use Bananas extremely well. Throw down a banana and B-air is basically a set kill at higher percents. Also, like most matchups, Diddy Kong can't really kill you whereas you can kill him pretty early.

I can reference my set with DMG at Genesis again, seeing as how I was at 220% and killed him at like...80

Diddy can outcamp falco. In what means can Lucario outcamp him. You have one projectile, I have 3. Without f-smash, how will lucario be killing diddy early? Bair has atrocious ending lag/cooldown(dont remember which one it is) and dair as already discussed is not really a good option. Diddy has sure fire setups into kill moves while lucario doesn't. Btw...dmg is a wario main

All that plus the fact that our air game is superior. Minus the fact we dont have a move that can spike with out the stage.

Fair outranges all of your aerials and bair comes out faster than all your aerials. Not to mention Side B.

I fail to get energy to elaborate so.. it's 55-45 in lucario's favor. It's very hard to kill lucario, and we have to at 145. Now, imagine the stupid aura crap we have to deal with then. Otherwise, in all other aspects it's totally even.

Every chr. has to deal with lucario's aura, not just diddy. This is not something that changes the matchup in his favor. Yes it is hard to kill lucario, guess what, its hard for diddy to kill nearly everyone. Its not uncommon for chrs. to live to 160-170 against diddy. That percent hardly matters when he's outputting nearly 40% each combo string.

Also in regards to AS. Diddy can just jump over it and throw a naner. Simple enough. Lulu has lag after firing. This can also stop Lulu from "camping" with AS. I can't honestly believe this matchup is in lucario's favor after playing the best lucario's out there. If only lee would post his thoughts...

 

[RT]

I think the fact that Lee HAS to counterpick another character against Diddy already shows what he thinks about the matchup. But it would be nice to hear it from the man himself.

I'm not saying it's an impossible matchup, but it's not in Lucario's favor.

 

[Popertop]

Diddy is good

 

[phi1ny3]

Seriously I kind of wish Lee wasn't so inactive on AIM/SWF, I take his opinion very seriously.
Also Gnes, there's a frame trade where if the Diddy glidetosses, you can fire an AS on reaction and Diddy will have to eat damage, although the whole jump thing is a new rebuttal I haven't heard before. Although on the negative side, I've seen the effectiveness of doing a SH throw, and it doesn't seem all too effective.
I respect your opinion because you've played with tons of lucarios, but there's a reason why aura is a pain for Diddy. It doesn't matter who lives to 160%, who gets the best benefit from staying alive from that? This reason generally makes Lucario pretty good in MUs where the opponent can't kill very well. For example, Snake and Oli probably are the chars that can kill Lucario the most efficiently, which make it generally tough for Lucario to gain from it. He's not saying that aura is only a unique problem to Diddy, but that it certainly compounds things.
Lee CPs against chars that other Lucarios don't have problems with, I don't get entirely how that says anything unless he thinks that Lucario is very theoretically at a disadvantage. Certain people can't play certain MUs if their lives depended on it, it's why I'd probably CP against Marth while Lee/RT would stay and say it's even.
btw RT, your friendly v. Gnes is lol. Friendlies are friendlies I suppose.

 

[Trela]

Gnes and Fliphop are known as the Lucario Slayers. Not once has a Lucario beat them in a set or have taken them out of the Bracket.

Like Gnes, I think it is in Diddy's favor. Diddy:

- Can outcamp us (AS aint gonna work here, bud).
- Can screw up our Airgame with his Arials or with Banana set-ups (Lucario's Fair aint too good in this MU, just so you know).
- Has attacks that pretty much "counter" us (Bair or Fair OOS, Jab, Banana, F!).

I'm not sure how to explain this MU, but with my experience from playing the Lucario Slayers, well, it's like every attack they do > every attack we do. Though I will say that at high %'s, we can do **** again (Fsmash/Fthrow anyone?)

I would also like to see what Lee has to say for Diddy. Lee, I summon you!

*is horrible at MU's*

 

[RT]

I honestly think people are just underestimating how good Diddy is. Even worse, people are underestimating the number of options Diddy has and his banana game.

Or maybe I'm just biased because I get regular Diddy practice.

Whatever the case, I'm sticking with my opinion. It's evenish, but Diddy has an edge.