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Social *sigh* oh the life of a Zelda main [A new zelda discussion zone]

gijn

gijn

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
43
Location
London
It's all about the feel baby. spacing is nearly everything in this game. Haters gunna hate.
 
gijn

gijn

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
43
Location
London
♥ said:
I think reaction/prediction is nearly everything in this game. Spacing is built on it
Click to expand...
Even if you predict like trash but keep spacing properly you can still win. no one has perfect predictions, but you can get perfect spacing.

I think predictions and reactions are built off spacing. other way around I sees it :awesome:
 
EPsilon933

EPsilon933

♥
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
7,187
Reaction time theory

How will you know what to space if you can't know your opponent?

[collapse="reaction time theory"]The average human reaction time is .25 seconds (15 frames). For most of the theory explained, we're going to assume players' reaction times are 15 frames

When something happens on screen, it takes a human 15 frames before they can respond to it. That means at any instant, you can do anything for 15 frames without your opponent being able to respond. Conversely, your opponent can do the same to you

When your opponent's reaction time is 15 frames, you can reach as far in any direction as 15 frames would allow you to move (Think of your character as the center of a circle. The radius of that circle is your character's mobility x time. All the area inside the circle is area you control). Now if your opponent has a slow reaction time, in this example 30 frames, your radius has doubled (and so has your area of control (linearly against your opponent)). When you have the faster reaction time, you can allow both players' areas to overlap and your character will be outside of the opponent's area (assuming you 2 are playing a ditto)

In any fighting game, when you start a move, you're normally stuck in that move's animation and can't stop it unless you either finish it or get hit. If you miss an attack, your opponent is going to have x-15 frames to freely respond to it (assuming the move doesn't allow you to input anything, like a ground move. x = total frames of animation on the attack). Suppose a Fox missed an upsmash against you (56 frames). You have 56-15 frames to respond and punish him (41 frames), making your area of control really big. Also, during those 56 frames of Fox's missed up smash, Fox's area of control is 0. He can't input anything so there's nothing he can input that you can't respond to. And this doesn't necessarily only focus on reaching with only the edge of your circle. The closer your opponent is to your character, the more time you'll of course have to appropriately hit your opponent

There is a reason why it's important to attack in the first place: Most attacks start up in fewer than 15 frames. They can't be purely reacted to. But almost all moves can be (before the entire move ends). Most attacks last longer than the human reaction time. Even Fox's jab is 17 frames (leaving you 2 for response before ending)

A lot of the time in a game, both players area's will over lap. Some area's will be massive (like Fox's) while other's will be shorter (like Peach's). There happens to be this concept called priority, which is when 2 moves are about to clash, who hits who. When a character is inside someone else's area, the game can change into who has the better priority move

Here's where prediction comes into play: If you can guess an opponent's going to commit to something, your response time won't be x-15 anymore. It could be x or even greater. The trick is to wait/bait the opponent into committing something he shouldn't be doing. All this does is simply increase your area of control allowing you to more safely hit your opponent. This is bull**** that I'll fix later maybe...[/collapse]I'm going to finish writing this up later...
 
gijn

gijn

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
43
Location
London
Spacing imo is a rule of thumb. Positioning based on the character they are using, doesn't need to take into account the player, that's when reacting and predicting comes in. I just find it easier to focus on my relative position to the opponent rather than trying to always predict correctly.
 
Bing

Bing

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
4,885
Location
St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada
I think thats wrong, I mean, yes its common knowledge that certain characters need to be spaced differently, but certain players play these said characters different. Example: a Fox player like Jman has a more defensive, conservative style as opposed to someone like Silent Wolf who is more technical and fast-paced. Are you going to space them the same?
 
¿Qué?

¿Qué?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
2,854
Location
Laredo, TX
♥ said:
How will you know what to space if you can't know your opponent?

[collapse="reaction time theory"]The average human reaction time is .25 seconds (15 frames). For most of the theory explained, we're going to assume players' reaction times are 15 frames

When something happens on screen, it takes a human 15 frames before they can respond to it. That means at any instant, you can do anything for 15 frames without your opponent being able to respond. Conversely, your opponent can do the same to you

When your opponent's reaction time is 15 frames, you can reach as far in any direction as 15 frames would allow you to move (Think of your character as the center of a circle. The radius of that circle is your character's mobility x time. All the area inside the circle is area you control). Now if your opponent has a slow reaction time, in this example 30 frames, your radius has doubled (and so has your area of control (linearly against your opponent)). When you have the faster reaction time, you can allow both players' areas to overlap and your character will be outside of the opponent's area (assuming you 2 are playing a ditto)

In any fighting game, when you start a move, you're normally stuck in that move's animation and can't stop it unless you either finish it or get hit. If you miss an attack, your opponent is going to have x-15 frames to freely respond to it (assuming the move doesn't allow you to input anything, like a ground move. x = total frames of animation on the attack). Suppose a Fox missed an upsmash against you (56 frames). You have 56-15 frames to respond and punish him (41 frames), making your area of control really big. Also, during those 56 frames of Fox's missed up smash, Fox's area of control is 0. He can't input anything so there's nothing he can input that you can't respond to. And this doesn't necessarily only focus on reaching with only the edge of your circle. The closer your opponent is to your character, the more time you'll of course have to appropriately hit your opponent

There is a reason why it's important to attack in the first place: Most attacks start up in fewer than 15 frames. They can't be purely reacted to. But almost all moves can be (before the entire move ends). Most attacks last longer than the human reaction time. Even Fox's jab is 17 frames (leaving you 2 for response before ending)

A lot of the time in a game, both players area's will over lap. Some area's will be massive (like Fox's) while other's will be shorter (like Peach's). There happens to be this concept called priority, which is when 2 moves are about to clash, who hits who. When a character is inside someone else's area, the game can change into who has the better priority move

Here's where prediction comes into play: If you can guess an opponent's going to commit to something, your response time won't be x-15 anymore. It could be x or even greater. The trick is to wait/bait the opponent into committing something he shouldn't be doing. All this does is simply increase your area of control allowing you to more safely hit your opponent. [/collapse]I'm going to finish writing this up later...
Click to expand...
Well, in my honest opinion I feel that spacing comes first. Once you've out spaced your opponent's options, they only give you a small set of moves they can do to reach your character, and hopefully hit/ grab them.

If I'm directly in front of Fox, he can jab, grab, up-smash, down-smash, forward-smash, ect. If I space myself from him (for example, Zelda's Sex Kick distance) once again, his options are limited to only what he can reach me with. The last thing any character on the roster wants to do is something that would leave them completely vulnerable by doing something pointless.

So, actually I feel that it's done in the following order.

Spacing-
Predicting-
Reaction-

And yeah, I feel that you can space against an unpredictable opponent. No matter who is using them, the character has the same set of moves. In this case, they should be spaced the same exact way against anyone playing them.

Another thing that comes with spacing is positioning, which is not the same thing.

Did I already use my double- jump?
Am I standing?
Am I walking?
Am I dashing?
On a platform?

This to me is definitely just as important as spacing. Even with good spacing, a bad position can still be fatal. Bad positioning leaves you vulnerable no matter how well you space. It leaves you dead open with no options to capitalize your spacing on.

So yeah, we're all kinda half right and half wrong on the subject. There's a lot more too it than this obviously.

:zeldamelee:
 
ShroudedOne

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
I think the issue that both sides run into is trying to separate spacing from reaction/prediction. Good spacing is placing yourself in good positions to limit your opponent's options, and thus making it more feasible to react/predict what they will do. So spacing is obviously important.

However, it is irrelevant how well you space, if you can't accurately observe your opponent's actions, and thus make predictions, or if you haven't developed the reaction time to be able to react to what they do. Honestly, I don't think either one is more important, but rather that they complement and complete each other (I hope that makes sense).
 
Dark Hart

Dark Hart

Rejected by Azua
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
11,251
Location
Death Row, North Carolina
Whoa spacing correctly is what gets you reads and helps you react correctly. If you're not spacing correctly it won't matter how well you can observe your opponents actions.

:phone:
 
GKInfinity

GKInfinity

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Messages
2,131
Location
Modesto CA
What's the first thing you do when the game starts?

If you start off close to your opponent you're immediately worrying about spacing but you also need to predict what your opponent's initial actions are going to be. Is he going to go for an attack right when the game starts or move out of the way expecting an attack from you? In this scenario, spacing and reading sort of occur at the same time. If you start off far away from your opponent however, your first thoughts are pretty much only about spacing.

After that initial period of time right after the game starts, I think the two things lead to one another or simply happen at the same time. You predict that your opponent is going to do something so you make quick adjustments to your spacing, or you space well and bait out attacks.

I pretty much agree with ShroudedOne.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
ironic cause i added you to my aim a ****ing week ago and i haven't seen you online yet.
 
ShroudedOne

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
I'm so bad with being on there. Heh. Sorry. ^^

I'll definitely be on more, now that I've been alerted. Starting tonight.
 
Bing

Bing

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
4,885
Location
St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada
Just recently I started posting like a *****... Its cause Im at work all day with internet access but facebook and that jazz blocked... And I want to become more informed with all that stuff and give people my 2 cents.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Bing said:
Just recently I started posting like a *****... Its cause Im at work all day with internet access but facebook and that jazz blocked... And I want to become more informed with all that stuff and give people my 2 cents.
Click to expand...
try playing the game more. i'm told that's a pretty good start.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Bing said:
Im hardly on smashboards when Im at home, because when I am sitting around at home, Im always playing. Mostly Fox practice, then Peach, Doc, Falco, Marth and Roy... and everyone else..
Click to expand...
Bing said:
Lmfao I used Zelda in a set in pools yesterday. Lost 0-2. Oh well, I tried...
Click to expand...
lies/logical fallacies detected.
 
¿Qué?

¿Qué?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
2,854
Location
Laredo, TX
So, I finally watched the first 2 episodes of The Legend of Korra.

I'm definitely gonna be looking forward to watching it all.

SEMI SPOILER FOLLOWS.
IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED IT, THEN DON'T READ THE FOLLOWING.

I LOVE the part in the first episode where Katara is talking to one of her grand kids, and the kid be all like, "I've heard all about your stories and adventures with the Avatar, and I always wondered what happened to Zuko's mother?"

And Katara be like "Well, it's a very amazing stor-- *interrupted by other grand child*

That killed me so bad as a fan of the series. So damn funny.

:zeldamelee:
 
¿Qué?

¿Qué?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
2,854
Location
Laredo, TX
It's coz Zelda.

Nah, but in all honesty I'm just trying to bring sommore activity to the boards here.
I had revived the Brawl DK boards at one point. I'ma try to wurk mah magic here too~

:zeldamelee:

And I also just wanted to talk about The Legend of Korra.

/inb4i'dtotallybeawaterbender

:zeldamelee: :zeldamelee: :zeldamelee:
 
TheLake

TheLake

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
3,057
Location
Butler PA
zelda players have the best ideas.

I would main kitara (dem girls in blue)

and madame kiyoshi/toph for secondaries.
 
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