Should Planking (i.e. Ledgestalling) be Banned?

[illinialex24]

MK's can completely run out the clock while only grabbing the ledge 30-40 times. Because of this, while it would need a lot of discussion I kind of like SCOTU's rule of "If the clock runs out, the MK loses."

Right, but the fact is that Metaknight can also stay on the platform on Smashville or the like and run out the clock on the IC's like that, making himself much safer without ever having to approach or edgegrab. Are you saying you want to ban excess of that as well?

 

[Steel]

That's what I'm talking about, stage camping. You can't really make a rule to prohibit running away to put yourself in a more advantageous position.

 

[Remzi]

MK's can completely run out the clock while only grabbing the ledge 30-40 times. Because of this, while it would need a lot of discussion I kind of like SCOTU's rule of "If the clock runs out, the MK loses."

With this rule, people will be planking MK without even having a percent lead in an attempt to waste the clock and win. The idea is nice, but there are loopholes.

I don't understand option 1 of this poll. If you agree that planking is broken and should be banned, then why not use the edge grab limit? There is virtually no reason to use the opinionated and problematic judging method when we can simply put a number on it and save everyone a headache. Nobody will grab the ledge more than 30 times, ever, unless of course they are planking.

Of course the number is still a bit high, but that's a different story.

 

[illinialex24]

That's what I'm talking about, stage camping. You can't really make a rule to prohibit running away to put yourself in a more advantageous position.

Yeah its true. But we would have to create a very complex rule because in some situations, like Olimar dittos, the clock can definitely run out.

I wonder if it should just be they lose for G&W and MK, but then what about other good planking characters like Jigglypuff who aren't broken with it but have amazing stalling potential.

Oh and is there any rule on running out the clock using consecutive rising pounds offstage after you ran out of all your jumps? It can waste a decent amount of time, like Fox's reflector. These all need to be dealt with.

With this rule, people will be planking MK without even having a percent lead in an attempt to waste the clock and win. The idea is nice, but there are loopholes.

I don't understand option 1 of this poll. If you agree that planking is broken and should be banned, then why not use the edge grab limit? There is virtually no reason to use the opinionated and problematic judging method when we can simply put a number on it and save everyone a headache. Nobody will grab the ledge more than 30 times, ever, unless of course they are planking.

Of course the number is still a bit high, but that's a different story.

But planking an MK is very hard unless your a G&W or so. This is mainly because his insane shuttle loop.

 

[Steel]

With this rule, people will be planking MK without even having a percent lead in an attempt to waste the clock and win. The idea is nice, but there are loopholes.

Hmm, true. Let's just erase MK from the roster and call it a day.

 

[Flayl]

Can't the SBR or the god**** Smash Researchers just find out exactly how many characters can deal with MK's planking? Wouldn't that be much better than asking people who haven't enough experience to vote on banning it?

 

[c3gill]

I'll update this right now.

Anyone know how lucas can deal with this?

For the record- thats a Mod and Researcher who is ASKING how we should deal with it..... if he doesnt know a definate way to deal with it, there probably isnt a definate way- if there was a definate way, someone would have come up with a solution by now. There are some situational ways to deal with planking though....

I believe putting a limit on planking isnt going to solve this problem. Planking, which is a form of stalling, should be banned in tournament play.

 

[illinialex24]

For the record- thats a Mod and Researcher who is ASKING how we should deal with it..... if he doesnt know a definate way to deal with it, there probably isnt a definate way- if there was a definate way, someone would have come up with a solution by now. There are some situational ways to deal with planking though....

I believe putting a limit on planking isnt going to solve this problem. Planking, which is a form of stalling, should be banned in tournament play.

Exactly, this should tke a while. I favor a ban of of MK's planking

 

[TLMSheikant]

For the record- Planking, which is a form of stalling, should be banned in tournament play.

Finally someone that makes sense. It should be considered stalling its the same act. Ur basically avoiding ur opponent from fighting you by staying invincible in the ledge. If the SBR doesnt ban this soon, brawl wont last long. There's just no argument to say this isnt a broken tactic that cannot be countered.

 

[illinialex24]

Finally someone that makes sense. It should be considered stalling its the same act. Ur basically avoiding ur opponent from fighting you by staying invincible in the ledge. If the SBR doesnt ban this soon, brawl wont last long. There's just no argument to say this isnt a broken tactic that cannot be countered.

It depends on the use. Jigglypuff just forces others to approach but MK makes a wall.

 

[OverLade]

The problem with the ledge grab limit is that it still doesn't quite STOP planking.

Once can simply hang on the edge if they arent being pressure....

Then the opponent has to approach to make them start jumping back to the edge again...

So technically you still force the opponent to approach....

 

[illinialex24]

The problem with the ledge grab limit is that it still doesn't quite STOP planking.

Once can simply hang on the edge if they arent being pressure....

Then the opponent has to approach to make them start jumping back to the edge again...

So technically you still force the opponent to approach....

You will fall off eventually but I like a time rule.

 

[Gea]

If I counted correctly, in that match with SCOTU it took him 3 minutes of almost pure planking to reach 70 grabs.

 

[Veril]

Anyone who thinks the sing-canceling glitch with Jigglypuff would make a ledgegrab limit unworkable doesn't understand how the technique works.

You do grab the ledge, just simultaneously drop off of it. It counts as a ledgegrab.

 

[The Sauce Boss]

I'll update this right now.

Anyone know how lucas can deal with this (scotu's planking vid)?

pk thunder

 

[TLMSheikant]

RedHalberd- that's the problem with the ledge grab count rule...it just doesnt stop planking. I wish I could edit my vote >_>. I voted for 2nd but after further evaluation it just seems like a stupid rule to implement...some characters like mk are impossible to make them leave the ledge no matter how hard u try. So it needs to go...

 

[illinialex24]

If I counted correctly, in that match with SCOTU it took him 3 minutes of almost pure planking to reach 70 grabs.

What character did he use?

 

[Gea]

What character did he use?

MK dittos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4jYJ-Yjf3w

 

[illinialex24]

MK dittos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4jYJ-Yjf3w

Well he could have taken much longer if used a lot of gliding and all his jumps but he wanted to be completely safe.

 

[XienZo]

The problem with the ledge grab limit is that it still doesn't quite STOP planking.

Once can simply hang on the edge if they arent being pressure....

Then the opponent has to approach to make them start jumping back to the edge again...

So technically you still force the opponent to approach....

Thats because Planking has 2 uses, and we only want to ban one of them. One is to stall by using invincibility frames. The other is to force approaches, but this is simply a character/stage advantage/disadvantage, all the stuff the people say about "drop off the ledge and spike them" or "pick a charcter that can deal with it or a stage where they can't plank" apply. The only reason we want to prevent STALLING is that it ABUSES the fact that we don't live in a perfect world, and thus are forced for practical reasons to keep matches under 8 minutes. Forcing an approach is perfectly legal; its disadvantages to some characters, but so are chaingrabs, and you just have to CP past them.

 

[illinialex24]

Thats because Planking has 2 uses, and we only want to ban one of them. One is to stall by using invincibility frames. The other is to force approaches, but this is simply a character/stage advantage/disadvantage, all the stuff the people say about "drop off the ledge and spike them" or "pick a charcter that can deal with it or a stage where they can't plank" apply. The only reason we want to prevent STALLING is that it ABUSES the fact that we don't live in a perfect world, and thus are forced for practical reasons to keep matches under 8 minutes. Forcing an approach is perfectly legal; its disadvantages to some characters, but so are chaingrabs, and you just have to CP past them.

Thank you, for this reason I think the ban should be on G&W and MK.

 

[Gea]

Well he could have taken much longer if used a lot of gliding and all his jumps but he wanted to be completely safe.

That's my point. Even shuttling would take longer than just regrab, and 3 minutes out of 8 is a significant portion of the match. I was just raising this point because most people do not realize just how long 70 grabs can take. So even by using this rule you aren't eliminating stalling via planking, just limiting it.

 

[XienZo]

That's my point. Even shuttling would take longer than just regrab, and 3 minutes out of 8 is a significant portion of the match. I was just raising this point because most people do not realize just how long 70 grabs can take. So even by using this rule you aren't eliminating stalling via planking, just limiting it.

70 grabs is what the Japanese used for 10 minute matches. We can make it 60, 40, 35, or 5 if we want. We're certainly going to adjust the limit for our own purposes.

 

[illinialex24]

That's my point. Even shuttling would take longer than just regrab, and 3 minutes out of 8 is a significant portion of the match. I was just raising this point because most people do not realize just how long 70 grabs can take. So even by using this rule you aren't eliminating stalling via planking, just limiting it.

Yeah, my view is that you can't take up more than 3 total minutes with 5 or more consecutive regrabs without an attempted (close to hitting attack or actual hit) attack. This way we don't punish offstage matches.

 

[Gea]

70 grabs is what the Japanese used for 10 minute matches. We can make it 60, 40, 35, or 5 if we want. We're certainly going to adjust the limit for our own purposes.

That would still mean nearly a third of a 10 minute match. The ledge grab rule doesn't adress what people have issue with here.

Stalling.

If the player is using it to stall, and stalling is banned...

Yeah, my view is that you can't take up more than 3 total minutes with 5 or more consecutive regrabs without an attempted (close to hitting attack or actual hit) attack. This way we don't punish offstage matches.

What's your solution to someone who comes back on, tornados once and then runs again?

 

[illinialex24]

What's your solution to someone who comes back on, tornados once and then runs again?

Ban Metaknight or after ledge grab tornados. Just go to the other part of the stage and you are fine though.

 

[Gea]

That doesn't sound like a good solution to the problem. And if you go anywhere on the stage all it takes is meta to hit you once (or in your words, even get close) and run once more.

I don't see how this solves the problem of ledgestalling.

I think you could argue that it isn't stalling since there are options against it, but if it is indeed considered "foolproof" as a plan to win then it is clearly stalling.

 

[c3gill]

Yeah, my view is that you can't take up more than 3 total minutes with 5 or more consecutive regrabs without an attempted (close to hitting attack or actual hit) attack. This way we don't punish offstage matches.

IMO, its pretty obvious when people are fighting offstage and when someone is planking..... I agree that we need to be safe about not punishing offstage fighting, but people will find ways around that rule (2:55 of planking, :05 to try to attack, 2:55 of planking, :05 to try to attack, plank again- gg.)

I am of the opinion that this needs to be done with- planking is taking the best character in the game and forcing people to come to him- while he enjoys invincibility. And we are debating if this is broken or not? come on.

Planking is stalling, and all stalling should be banned.

 

[TLMSheikant]

c3gill- I completely agree with u. Planking needs to go since it IS a form of stalling. We dont need fancy ledge grab count rules or the like we need to BAN it.

 

[illinialex24]

I mean 3 minutes per match. Total.

 

[Gea]

c3gill- I completely agree with u. Planking needs to go since it IS a form of stalling. We dont need fancy ledge grab count rules or the like we need to BAN it.

If you feel that way, how do you ban such a thing objectively?

I mean 3 minutes per match. Total.

While this still leaves 3 minutes to plank/stall, the issue of counting three minutes out can be grayed by splitting up the stalling into blocks with on stage running away in between. Such and the like.

 

[GwJ]

judge discretion.

 

[Ills]

Will you people stop making idiotic rules and play the game?

What is the point of making these rules at all? Super Smash Bros. is just a game.

Welcome to Smashboards.com, enjoy your stay.

Editin' time: Here are a few examples of blown calls and other errors by judges/refs in real life. When someone blows something in a wide-open, real affair with other refs to consult with, how is only one judge going ban it outright?

a) The judge misses a ledgegrab by getting distracted.

b) The judge sees a "plank" but instead recognizes it as a well-to-do ledgegrab and lets play continue.

c) bribery lol

d) The action moves TOO FAST for human eyes in some parts.

These judges you're implementing are only human. They cannot do it objectively or with discretion because it is impossible- WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES. When you implement a ledgegrab limit, you are not throwing it up to lady luck that the judge sees something as planking. You get it right there.

Run a few tournaments with the judge, and run a few tournaments with the edge limit. See which one has the most errors. You're telling me in a large tournament like EVO or something like that, you will not see a player get screwed out because of a judge's wrong call? That's jaded.

Use the feature where you're not going to be biased in any way. Judging is not that feature.

 

[Volts]

I think people should just practice other tactics to deal with that kind of thing. It is going to be hard to come up with a rule that doesn't hider the game, while also not being ridicules. Plus if you ban that why not ban other things that people find annoying?

 

[PK-ow!]

We can't ban this. There is no way to ban it.
A limit on total edge grabs is still just some number that can be argued without an objective resolution.
Any other method of ban isn't enforceable.

If planking has a counter, it is imperative that we let players discover it.

If it doesn't have a counter - and this pisses me off more than you could know - Brawl is just a broken game. Not broken like SSB64, but just nonfunctional.
We'll have to, I'm sorry, pack it up and abandon the game competitively.

@GwJumpman: Even if I was some judge, who was not participating in an event, and had no favoritism toward any of the players there, and had no fear for my own neck at the hands of neurotic immature gamers, I would not know when to call the "limit" to planking.

It's that simple. It's because planking isn't a move, it's a maneuver. It's doing something repeatedly. It *consists in* the repetition of a certain thing - a basic thing, in fact - over and over. You can't ban the single move that composes it, and I have never heard of a way to ban something which consists in repetition.

That's my question to well-traveled progamers out there. If in some successful fighter community, there is a ban on a "repetition" tactic - NOT a ban or limit on some maneuver, but on a thing whose essence IS repetition of something - I want to hear from you.

 

[Ills]

We can't ban this. There is no way to ban it.
A limit on total edge grabs is still just some number that can be argued without an objective resolution.
Any other method of ban isn't enforceable.

Set the edgegrab limit at something like 20. Watch games drastically improve from ledgegrabbing dryhump sessions.

If planking has a counter, it is imperative that we let players discover it.

If it doesn't have a counter - and this pisses me off more than you could know - Brawl is just a broken game. Not broken like SSB64, but just nonfunctional.
We'll have to, I'm sorry, pack it up and abandon the game competitively.

FSDFDFSDSFD

 

[Remzi]

Hmm, true. Let's just erase MK from the roster and call it a day.

^^^This... for real.

 

[Oracle]

We can't ban this. There is no way to ban it.
A limit on total edge grabs is still just some number that can be argued without an objective resolution.
Any other method of ban isn't enforceable.

If planking has a counter, it is imperative that we let players discover it.

If it doesn't have a counter - and this pisses me off more than you could know - Brawl is just a broken game. Not broken like SSB64, but just nonfunctional.
We'll have to, I'm sorry, pack it up and abandon the game competitively.

@GwJumpman: Even if I was some judge, who was not participating in an event, and had no favoritism toward any of the players there, and had no fear for my own neck at the hands of neurotic immature gamers, I would not know when to call the "limit" to planking.

It's that simple. It's because planking isn't a move, it's a maneuver. It's doing something repeatedly. It *consists in* the repetition of a certain thing - a basic thing, in fact - over and over. You can't ban the single move that composes it, and I have never heard of a way to ban something which consists in repetition.

That's my question to well-traveled progamers out there. If in some successful fighter community, there is a ban on a "repetition" tactic - NOT a ban or limit on some maneuver, but on a thing whose essence IS repetition of something - I want to hear from you.

How is ssb64 broken?

On topic- It really shouldn't be banned yet. Lets try and find some counters. It's not like its as bad as gannon's in melee

 

[SkylerOcon]

gannon's

gannon

gann

nn

www.gannon-banned.com

Repent, and only then will the three goddesses forgive you for your sin.

On-topic: I've yet to see a case where planking has actually turned the outcome of the match in favor of the worse player. Whenever I see somebody win and they planked a lot during the match, it was against a player of relatively equal skill level. If I suddenly planked non-stop (which I already almost do in some matches), I won't suddenly become the best player in my area, or even one of the better players in my area.

Planking is nothing but a viable strategy. Wanting to ban planking is just as stupid as wanting to ban chaingrabs.

 

[-Syn-]

honestly people, is it really that hard to jump ur *** down and counter plank? or spike ? or gimp? hell no it isnt hard at all so dont ***** about planking just jump off the side and put a hurtin on a *****

This was my reaction at first as well but jumping off the edge in that area to try to spike an MK will most likely get you stage spiked by a SL or dair.

Planking should be at the judges discretion, it is pretty obvious what is excessive and what is not.