Should Planking (i.e. Ledgestalling) be Banned?

[bob-e]

I don't think the issue is whether or not there are characters that can deal with Metaknight's planking. Of course there are. Just space yourself from the edge correctly as Charizard, and use your fire. The real question is: are there characters that can deal with Metaknight's planking, and not get completely destroyed by him once he's been forced back onto the stage? Unfortunately, from what I've seen, it looks like the answer is no. Snake can throw grenades or try to drop a nikita on his head, and Diddy can thrown banana's down at him, but if Metaknight plays his cards right, it should all be avoidable by air dodges and invincibility. Then there's Falco, but the best he can do is hope Metaknight screws up and leaves himself open for a dair, and doesn't just shuttle loop through it.

The characters who can deal with planking the best are generally the worst at actually fighting those who can plank effectively in the first place.

But what do I know? I've only been to a couple of tournaments. And it's not like this thread really matters anyway; the only discussions or votes that make a difference will happen in the Back Room.

 

[Brinzy]

It's not even that its because pit when he used WoI he gets a small boost and when somebody trys to approach the wingpush puts them away.

Can't you block that?

THE DEMON HAS SPOKEN!

Really? You could've fooled me with the fact that you keep using BLACK-ON-BLACK TEXT GODDAMMIT STOP IT.

 

[illinialex24]

Can we just ban this technique the same as sonic stalling was banned then?

The planking thing is hard because it's interspersed with regular strategy (EVERYONE has to grab the ledge at some point). But if this jiggs thing is a standalone technique, wouldn't it be pretty easy to spot someone abusing it?

Its her only break in Brawl though..... Its gonna get banned though.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

also, ppl overrate projectiles that can easily beat planking. Pikachu's and diddys are both extremely easy to avoid, and snakes aren't that hard.

However, planking doesn't really make you any better. There's always a way to get around it and it doesn't help you to beat better players. It just makes it easier to beat people you were already going to beat.

First of all, your entire second paragraph isn't true at all. You weren't even Planking effectively and you mistimed it a lot of times.


There aren't that many chars that can deal with Planking the safest way possible, it is DEFINITELY broken.

 

[illinialex24]

First of all, your entire second paragraph isn't true at all. You weren't even Planking effectively and you mistimed it a lot of times.


There aren't that many chars that can deal with Planking the safest way possible, it is DEFINITELY broken.

Depends with who. As MK, yes. As G&W, I would say its semi broken but MK and Marth can counter it fairly well. For a Jigglypuff or Kirby planking, no. Although the new tech might change stuff....

 

[CRASHiC]

Jigglypuff can plank without touching the ledge.
Sing cancel gives back all jumps without touching the edge.
The ledge rule will not work.

Okay. So it just came out they don't even have to use sing.
So yeaaaaaaaah.
Ledge grab rule doesn't work.

 

[SCOTU]

I don't think the issue is whether or not there are characters that can deal with Metaknight's planking. Of course there are. Just space yourself from the edge correctly as Charizard, and use your fire. The real question is: are there characters that can deal with Metaknight's planking, and not get completely destroyed by him once he's been forced back onto the stage? Unfortunately, from what I've seen, it looks like the answer is no. Snake can throw grenades or try to drop a nikita on his head, and Diddy can thrown banana's down at him, but if Metaknight plays his cards right, it should all be avoidable by air dodges and invincibility. Then there's Falco, but the best he can do is hope Metaknight screws up and leaves himself open for a dair, and doesn't just shuttle loop through it.

The characters who can deal with planking the best are generally the worst at actually fighting those who can plank effectively in the first place.

But what do I know? I've only been to a couple of tournaments. And it's not like this thread really matters anyway; the only discussions or votes that make a difference will happen in the Back Room.

Snake can make it hard to plank, and puts up a good fight onstage. DDD can do some good **** about planking, and can do alright against MK normal. Diddy can do some stuff about it, and MK on FD. Last but not least, MK can do stuff about it, and is MK's worst matchup.

First of all, your entire second paragraph isn't true at all. You weren't even Planking effectively and you mistimed it a lot of times.

How does that contradict my second paragraph at all? Because I missguess a bunch of stuff and lose a bunch of yomi matches with planking is exactly why i can't beat good players with it. Me doing it poorly and losing to good players is actually one of the exact things i'm arguing for, and you're arguing against... apparently. You still have to be able to outplay your opponent when you're planking, it's just a slower way of doing so with less options on both sides. If the other player is better than you, then they can still beat your planking. All they have to do is gain a small percent lead and you can't really plank anymore. That takes winning maybe 1-3 yomi battles if you're coming from behind, and then you can play them however you like, whether that's out agro-ing them, playing defensive against their need to regain the lead, or if it's planking them back yourself. So if someone's better than the planker, then they shouldn't have much difficulty gaining the lead within 8 minutes, and shouldn't have much difficulty winning the game either.

 

[HiddenBowser]

This is why the ledgegrab rule doesn't work. You can plank until you've grabbed the ledge a couple times less than the limit, and then stall the rest of the match by jumping around platforms and such. There's no way to enforce a rule against it.

what's wrong with that? and jumping around, being patient, and waiting for open spots to attack is a perfectly legit strategy, and if it leads to time out, then so be it.

 

[DanGR]

what's wrong with that? and jumping around, being patient, and waiting for open spots to attack is a perfectly legit strategy, and if it leads to time out, then so be it.

Where did I say it was wrong? I'm all for patient, defensive play. All I said was that the ledgegrab rule doesn't work.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Where did I say it was wrong? I'm all for patient, defensive play. All I said was that the ledgegrab rule doesn't work.

the rule isn't there to prevent time outs, it's there to prevent people from timing out by staying in a position that is impossible to punish. People wouldn't be able to plank more than a couple minutes, so then games would basically just have a 6 min timer.

 

[Gea]

the rule isn't there to prevent time outs, it's there to prevent people from timing out by staying in a position that is impossible to punish. People wouldn't be able to plank more than a couple minutes, so then games would basically just have a 6 min timer.

But it isn't impossible right now, just alot of characters are at a heavy disadvantage to try and stop it. There's a difference. And a "couple minutes" is a long time when the max time is 8 minutes.

 

[LuigiKing]

I cannot believe how ******** this debate is. People are actually arguing that running away and abusing ledge invincibility for upwards of 3 minutes in a fighting game is fine. This is so stupid.....

 

[AlphaZealot]

I don't want it banned.

However if you are a TO who wants to ban it, I would fully suggest using an edge grab limit between 35 and 45 instead of banning it by judge rule.

 

[SCOTU]

just to take a rough first try, i'd say if you were to use the edge grab rule, you should try

40 +(5 x # of edges on the stage)


this would make it 50 on FD/smashville/etc... but 70 on norfair, and 55 on pstadium, etc...

 

[Levitas]

I like judge rule because you can say "If I catching you planking, immediate match loss", which is a much more severe deterrent than "you can plank a bunch, but if you plank too much it's suddenly bad"

 

[cutter]

The problem with a judge ruling obviously is the fact you have to make an arbritrary decision. What would define Planking in this case?

 

[SCOTU]

judge rule's also significantly less harsh, because, like any other judge stalling rule, it just forces you to end your maneuver (which in the case of planking doesn't lose you a stock).

A major issue of this is: Is planking stalling or is it just good defensive play? If it's just good defensive play, then you can't ban it unless it's brokenly good, which it hasn't appeared to be brokenly good yet. If it's actually stalling, then you'd need to either use the judge rule, the ledge rule, or some other, better conceived rule.

I currently (I've changed views on this many times recently) believe planking is not stalling, but rather just good defensive play.

Stalling is currently defined by the SBR as "The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs most end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling."

Planking does not deliberately avoid "any and all conflict", it simply forces the opponent to have to approach due to percent lead, much the same way using projectiles can force a character to approach. There's nothing about planking that avoids conflict, it just weights it in favor of the Metaknight. In fact, in the current definition of stalling, planking is almost exclusively written in as something that people might confuse as stalling, but is in fact, not stalling ("Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling"). You would have to rewrite the definition of stalling before you could consider banning it as such (currently no part of the definition of stalling conforms to including planking, but rather indicates that it is not stalling).

As far as banning it for brokenness goes (as a defensive option), i believe it's been shown that planking is dealable with, and that no one (who matters) believes it to be impossible to deal with. Although for anything your can do, the MK can do something that counters that, they cannot do something about everything you do on reaction. This means that during a string of planking, the planker and the plankee are just in a series of yomi battles, meaning clearly, that the better player will be doing better off the longer the planker planks. This is clearly an indicator that it's not broken, but rather, balanced. I don't think anyone's arguing that it should be banned because it's broken.

If it's not broken as a defensive tactic, and it's not actually stalling, then i don't think there's a need to ban it. It's just annoying to deal with and makes things take longer. When running a tournament you have to account for long sets (it's easily possible to time out matches even w/o planking). When playing brawl, you're already expecting it to be annoying, so you're used to it. Besides, complaints aren't a reason to ban something.

 

[Levitas]

The problem with a judge ruling obviously is the fact you have to make an arbritrary decision. What would define Planking in this case?

Any rule that involves a judge's discretion has this problem. The real issue is whether planking (regulated or not) is more of a problem than leaving the decision on how to make a call in the hands of an individual.

I believe that TOs can handle the responsibility of making reasonable calls at the tournaments they host. I do believe that my opinion is a result of a poor situation for a competitive game.

I also think that judge's rule should be harsher and more to the form of "match loss if I catch you planking", which requires a lot less responsibility to monitor many games during a tournament in which they're obviously busy with other things.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I like judge rule because you can say "If I catching you planking, immediate match loss", which is a much more severe deterrent than "you can plank a bunch, but if you plank too much it's suddenly bad"

Because no specific action is banned, only a general pattern of actions.

Because of this, it's impossible for players to know where the line is, and for that reason, they can't know what not to do to not get called on the action.

For example, if you ledgedrop and then regrab twice in a row, are you planking? Under judge ruling, you could be if the judge says so.


Applying a limit allows us to define the exact action which is banned, thus preventing the situation I described, now it's clear whether the opponent planked because planking is defined in terms of actual action.


As of right now, the idea behind the limit is that we pick a number high enough to make sure that people who play normally never encounter it, but low enough that somebody that's attempting to use ledge invincibility as a stall tactic will inevitably encounter it, because it's not useful unless you can maintain it consistently.

Any rule that involves a judge's discretion has this problem. The real issue is whether planking (regulated or not) is more of a problem than leaving the decision on how to make a call in the hands of an individual.

That's why we avoid these rules in the first place.


Again, a proper number destroys the effectiveness of the technique while preventing people who are playing normally from encountering it, thus banning it.


Assuming it's banworthy of course.

I believe that TOs can handle the responsibility of making reasonable calls at the tournaments they host. I do believe that my opinion is a result of a poor situation for a competitive game.

Actually, that's not even the real problem, if you're playing to win, you're attempting to play using the best legal methods.

Fuzzy rules (in other words, rules that rest on a judge's interpretation) defeat that by forcing players to not only play within the written rules, but avoid any technique that might be construed as a violation, regardless of it's strategic value.

That's a foolish loss of depth.

I also think that judge's rule should be harsher and more to the form of "match loss if I catch you planking", which requires a lot less responsibility to monitor many games during a tournament in which they're obviously busy with other things.

The ledge-grab thing requires basically no judge oversight. On the other hand your rule will probably result in either a disproportionately lower or higher number of people dq'ed on average then are needed (depending on the judges).

On the other hand, the ledge-grab issue will kill plankers, period.

 

[c3gill]

Scotu- What would you have done in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms1lX6lCzqY if the other MK would have just run to the other side and started planking as well? Would either of you have bothered to approach, or would you just chill around?

My thought process is that it takes the best character in the game, gives him invincibility frames, and forces MKs opponent to approach him.

All of these tilt ridiculously in MKs favor- do you really think that there is any option for, say a falco to approach this? Any decent MK can win a match by planking- unlike chaingrabs, there is no evasion skill on your opponents part. You, using MK, are taking the game and deliberately giving yourself a massive advantage with NO DISADVANTAGE.

That is my main issue with this- there is only benefit and no risk to self. thats why I believe this is broken.

 

[SCOTU]

Because no specific action is banned, only a general pattern of actions.

Because of this, it's impossible for players to know where the line is, and for that reason, they can't know what not to do to not get called on the action.

For example, if you ledgedrop and then regrab twice in a row, are you planking? Under judge ruling, you could be if the judge says so.


Applying a limit allows us to define the exact action which is banned, thus preventing the situation I described, now it's clear whether the opponent planked because planking is defined in terms of actual action.


As of right now, the idea behind the limit is that we pick a number high enough to make sure that people who play normally never encounter it, but low enough that somebody that's attempting to use ledge invincibility as a stall tactic will inevitably encounter it, because it's not useful unless you can maintain it consistently.

Thing about edgegrab is that, despite there being a specific number, during a match, if you were to just plank out the end (the usual use) you wouldn't know how many edgegrabs you have, and really wouldn't be able to know for sure, so, despite it not being a person's discretion, the "not knowing how far you can take it" still applies.

Picking a ledge grab rule just means you're limiting the amount of time at the end that you can plank for. By making it like 50 or something, you're just saying: only plank for the last 1.5 minutes, instead of the last 3 or whatever.

 

[SCOTU]

Scotu- What would you have done in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms1lX6lCzqY if the other MK would have just run to the other side and started planking as well? Would either of you have bothered to approach, or would you just chill around?

My thought process is that it takes the best character in the game, gives him invincibility frames, and forces MKs opponent to approach him.

All of these tilt ridiculously in MKs favor- do you really think that there is any option for, say a falco to approach this? Any decent MK can win a match by planking- unlike chaingrabs, there is no evasion skill on your opponents part. You, using MK, are taking the game and deliberately giving yourself a massive advantage with NO DISADVANTAGE.

That is my main issue with this- there is only benefit and no risk to self. thats why I believe this is broken.

If we both planked, i'd've kept planking and waited for him to approach because I know i'm more patient than him. Even if he kept it up for the whole game like me, it would've just gone into tiebreaker, at which point i didn't actually finish deciding my strategy for (i was working on that during game 1 and was thinking i'd just stage camp).

No Disadvantage with the addition of advantage, is not broken in this case because there IS skill on your opponents part that can get around it, and beat the MK. Turns out that if you do a number of things while the MK's off the edge that they don't expect (or they expected something different), you're now in the position of power. As I described above, Planking just turns the game into a very linear series of discreet Yomi battles. It's more than likely that the better player will win, even if the worse player is planking (assuming they know what they're doing. They'll also typically have a lot of time to figure it out as they go lol).

 

[adumbrodeus]

Thing about edgegrab is that, despite there being a specific number, during a match, if you were to just plank out the end (the usual use) you wouldn't know how many edgegrabs you have, and really wouldn't be able to know for sure, so, despite it not being a person's discretion, the "not knowing how far you can take it" still applies.

Picking a ledge grab rule just means you're limiting the amount of time at the end that you can plank for. By making it like 50 or something, you're just saying: only plank for the last 1.5 minutes, instead of the last 3 or whatever.

Firstly, if you plan on planking, you should count your edgegrabs. No other use of edge-grabbing should encounter this issue. It's easily available information, and if you don't keep track of it, you deserve to be DQ'd if you use the tactic anyway.


As for time, then you need a lower number of edgegrabs or...

Dare I say it?

Change the standard.


If you're getting the critical time on average (or 1 standard devation probably), then you need to switch the standard format so that's not the case. Higher time, less stocks, different damage ratio, etc, all could potentially deal with that issue without making a nebulous ban criteria.

There are others, but the community needs to be willing to explore them.

 

[c3gill]

No Disadvantage with the addition of advantage, is not broken in this case because there IS skill on your opponents part that can get around it, and beat the MK. Turns out that if you do a number of things while the MK's off the edge that they don't expect (or they expected something different), you're now in the position of power. As I described above, Planking just turns the game into a very linear series of discreet Yomi battles. It's more than likely that the better player will win, even if the worse player is planking (assuming they know what they're doing. They'll also typically have a lot of time to figure it out as they go lol).

The advantage without disadvantage is still there- you are forcing them to approach, and allowing yourself invincibility frames..... even if the opponent does something unexpected, there are very few options that will have significant negative effects on MK without risk to the opponent.

You are forcing your opponent to approach, and you say because they could have skill there is no disadvantage- thats incorrect, you are still experiencing invincibility frames and forcing them to approach- even if they do have skill and abilities, your opponent MUST approach MK, and therefore put their character at risk, while MK is not because he can still experience the invincibility frames.

Assuming 2 equal level players, both play MK. One decides to plank, the other doesnt and approaches as usual. Who has the advantage?

The one planking! He has a significant advantage in that situation. thats a pure, 100% advantage there- and no disadvantage

 

[shadydentist]

Auto-ledgegrab was a poor game design choice.

What we're trying to avoid here is unnecessary stalling, so I'm in favor of a limit only in the event of a time-out. That way you can't stall out an early lead, problem fixed, and theres zero subjectivity.

 

[SCOTU]

The advantage without disadvantage is still there- you are forcing them to approach, and allowing yourself invincibility frames.....

First off, i hope you do realize that edge invincibility frames pretty much doesn't matter for planking at all, right? Planking's about giving your opponent a hard angle to approach at, when you have good aerials to attack them from that angle.

even if the opponent does something unexpected, there are very few options that will have significant negative effects on MK without risk to the opponent.

each option you take you risk taking some damage from the MK, maybe a loss of stock if you're stupid. But those options also offer the same yield. Besides, how is this different from any other situation? Anything you do has a risk and a reward associated with it, and this is no different. In fact, the risk isn't even that great against planking. The worst you can do is seriously mess up and get stage spike KOd. Then again, the worst the MK can do is mess up and get stage spike KOd at about equal odds. This is no different than any other situation involving MK.

You are forcing your opponent to approach

because of percent lead. How is this different from camping on the stage? they'll still have to approach you.

, and you say because they could have skill there is no disadvantage- thats incorrect,

I'm not saying this. I'm saying there's no disadvantage, just as there is on stage.

you are still experiencing invincibility frames and forcing them to approach- even if they do have skill and abilities, your opponent MUST approach MK, and therefore put their character at risk, while MK is not because he can still experience the invincibility frames.

MK's invin frames have almost nothing to do w/ planking, nor the reasons he's at low risk. Your opponent must approach MK because of the same reason they must approach him at any other time when he's playing defensive. They're putting their character at risk because you always have to put your character at risk to approach (or defend, for that matter). The MK IS at risk, because he can misread you just as well as you can misread him. He's also at risk.

Assuming 2 equal level players, both play MK. One decides to plank, the other doesnt and approaches as usual. Who has the advantage?

The one that's planking. In that situation, the one that's playing defensive always has the advantage over the one that's playing aggressively.

The one planking! He has a significant advantage in that situation. thats a pure, 100% advantage there- and no disadvantage

It's not "pure 100% advantage". Normal Yomi rules still apply to this situation, and both players are in their rock/paper/scissors mode.

---Summary---

All of your claims are based around either MK having invincibility frames, which is practically irrelevant, or could be applied to any defensive playing of MK. You're arguing to ban the defensive playing of MK in total, not just planking. Just because planking is a simplified version of the game, and clearly illustrates the struggle between offense and defense, doesn't mean that it's the only thing that's like that. Normal playing defensive has much the same gameplay, it's just more complex, and not discrete yomi battles, but rather a whole bunch blurred together with random discreet ones thrown in.

All in all, Planking is just a personification of playing defensively that people seem to explode about because it happens to be more effective than normal defensive playing against some characters like falco.

 

[TheFast]

What is this 50 ledge grab stuff that I am hearing. The number 70 was fine why is it being changed all of a sudden. Planking is not aways used to break the game. 70 allowed it to be used without being broken. Is the sense that the person could use the edge to get a better advantage for example. Lets say your opponent is waiting on the ledge waiting to predict your manor of coming up. I, as a kirby main, like to presure them with Fairs from the edge untill I can find an opening to get back up. Sometimes I need to grab the ledge 4 times before this opening comes up. Im not using the ledge in a manor that breaks the game, im not using it to stall, but this will increase my ledge grabs. Lets say I do it 5 times each time (which is high it normally costes me like two or three ledge grabs) your saying if I use the edge to pressure my opponent away from the edge 5 times in one match I will automatically lose?!? This idea is stupid. I thought 70 was cutting it close but these new numbers are just stupid. You are going to cause people to be afraid of the ledge. There are many ways to use the ledge without planking and planking itself is not a broken tactic. It seems when ever something hard to get around pops up in brawl everybody is quick to call for a ban. Seeing as the only real characters that have trouble with planking are Peach and Falco I dont see what the big deal is. Limiting something that is clearly not game breaking is just limited the way we can play this game. Scrubs make fun about the "you take out half the game to play" meaning stages and items, but we found more enjoyment by limited the game to be fair, but the brawl community is taking it to far. Enstead of limiting everything that makes the game unfair people are limiting "Frustrating" things about the game just to make it more fun. Just because something is tuff to deal with doesnt mean it is "Broken" please stop calling all these bans on stupid subjects while IC can infinite people, and pikachu has 100% simple to do chaingrabs on most the cast.

Also on another note the person Planking does not get 100% advantage with the person that they are playing know what they are doing. The first time you see it, it looks impossiable to get around, but if I recall right people thought the same thing about MK. Just play smart, its not broken at all.

 

[HiddenBowser]

First off, i hope you do realize that edge invincibility frames pretty much doesn't matter for planking at all, right? Planking's about giving your opponent a hard angle to approach at, when you have good aerials to attack them from that angle.

It matters a little because for the period of time that they're highest, they're invincible. and then they're falling down with u airs or something.

each option you take you risk taking some damage from the MK, maybe a loss of stock if you're stupid. But those options also offer the same yield. Besides, how is this different from any other situation? Anything you do has a risk and a reward associated with it, and this is no different. In fact, the risk isn't even that great against planking. The worst you can do is seriously mess up and get stage spike KOd. Then again, the worst the MK can do is mess up and get stage spike KOd at about equal odds. This is no different than any other situation involving MK.

equal odds my ***. It may not be bad for another mk but many other characters get *****. with lucario i'd give it a 3% chance I stage spike you, 5% chance of hitting you and giving you like 5%, 30% chance of getting hit, 20% chance of getting hit and dieing... ok so i pulled the numbers out of my *** but there's much more of a chance of getting hit and dieing than just giving you a couple percent.

The MK IS at risk, because he can misread you just as well as you can misread him. He's also at risk.

when he's playing against another mk

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I think this whole idea of 'picking a number' for the amount of ledgegrabs someone can have is stupid. There's just too many variables. You're making the issue too complicated. It's stupid to have a judge come and watch every single fight because there's a metaknight in it.

 

[Zankoku]

Wait, are you arguing against both the judge rule AND the ledgegrab rule?

 

[kevinw0w]

I think this whole idea of 'picking a number' for the amount of ledgegrabs someone can have is stupid. There's just too many variables. You're making the issue too complicated. It's stupid to have a judge come and watch every single fight because there's a metaknight in it.

What's your brilliant solution then?

Anyways, I agree with Bowyer, the MK is at an advantage. A big advantage, it's not even, it's not "rock-paper-scissors mode". It's broken.

Planking should be prevented, and the best way is option number two.

 

[SCOTU]

Wait, are you arguing against both the judge rule AND the ledgegrab rule?

then he'd be arguing for the last option. Don't ban it. Not hard to understand.

What's your brilliant solution then?

not banning it.

Anyways, I agree with Bowyer, the MK is at an advantage. A big advantage, it's not even, it's not "rock-paper-scissors mode". It's broken.

Planking should be prevented, and the best way is option number two.

MK is at an advantage while planking, but he's also (usually) at a similar advantage onstage. And for enough characters, it IS a game of RPS, because there are a finite number of abstract options that MK can do on the edge, and a similar number that the other character can do from onstage. For each option that MK has, there's at least one that the other character has that can beat it. While I admit that planking does give at least a reasonable matchup in favor of MK over many characters, many of the upper tiers do in fact have the options to cover all of MK's options on the edge. There are also a number of stages you can counterpick that force MK to not plank, meaning at most you'll have to deal with it for 2 games in a best of 3. Unlike what Bowyer said about % chances of stuff, it's not actually a probability. It's yomi. MK has the full set of tools to plank. Enough other characters have the full set of tools to defeat planking. It's not broken.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Stop thinking that banning MK will stop planking. Even if you made the mistake to ban MK there would still be a good bunch of characters being able to plank: Pit, Marth, G&W, ROB, Jigglypuff ... I can even imagine Bowser and DK (with the invincibility frames on their UpB's) winning games by excessive ledgecamping. Blaming it on one character misses the point completely, especially if it won't solve the problem. Either ban planking/use a ledge grab rule or ban nothing at all. Banning MK is fake compromise that will damage the scene even more than planking does (and the ledgecamping issue still remains).

You guys are theorizing too much. 90% of the stuff said in this thread is based on assumptions and personal opinions. Before such an issue can be even discussed we need results. Despite planking looking overpowered I have yet to see a worse player beating a better one by only using this tactic. As long as this doesn't happen people shouldn't even consider ledgecamping bannable.
The infamous Axis match SK92 vs Plank might be proof enough for some people but whether Plank wouldn't have won in the first place is arguable. DSF also won a game vs Fiction at BIO2 by merely ledgecamping IIRC but we all know that DSF might have won anyways.
As long as we don't see random dude #3472 beating a high level player with this tactic there's no reason to do something about it. If Plank won that way against Azen it would be a different story. But right now we lack results...

My suggestion: Ban ledgecamping from the bigger tournaments or use a ledge grab limit (like Brawl 'Till You Fall has) but allow planking in smaller tournaments. It would be unfortunate if a potentially broken tactic decided the outcome of such a big and improtant event. But then again: Without results it's hard to argue for a solution if it may not even be needed. For that reason you should allow planking in regular tournaments to see how it works out. Will a better player lose because of this tactic? Will it happen only once or an unusual number of times? Depending on the results we could argue about a solution but at this point it's just too early.

I won't vote though because personally I think it's too good. The number of invincible frames and vulnerable frames is ridicoulus in comparision - the frame window in which you can potentially attack is very low. Even if you need to be smart to plank: The player who camps at the ledge has more room for mistakes than the player who is planked.
I'm against the ledge grab rule. You won't get rid of the problems...you only do so for a limited amount of playtime. You can fight for the first half of the battle and then start to plank for the rest of the match until the clock runs out. You basically fight half a match and then safely run out the clock without grabbing the ledge 40 or 50 times. If you have a problem with planking you should just ban it overall. The ledge grab rule has loopholes and is easy exploitable. Even if ledge grabs are limited it's still possible to plank and potentially so for an entire match.

It probably won't matter though since many TOs already ban planking anyways (or use the ledge grab rule). I don't think many people will quit going to tournaments for that reason so I guess for a TO it's the best decision. As a TO you have to do what the community wants as long as it's acceptable.
Ledgecamping will probably be banned anyways eventually and I don't think anybody will complain about that even though I think results would be better than assumptions. Results don't lie.

 

[Levitas]

The vast majority that's been said from scotu, myself, ankoku, and bowyer has been the direct result of personal experience with both the receiving and giving end of this tactic.

As far as I can tell, we've all come to separate conclusions.

I believe it's important to ban excessive ledge-stalling because the risk vs reward for the non-MK is generally ridiculous. Especially for falco and characters like him.

I believe that the best course of action is to use a judge rule (though not the one that is proposed). A harsh punishment (match loss) for taking this kind of action will act as a much better deterrent from people using this strat than silly things like a "cease and desist" order from a judge or a sanctioned number of edge grabs. And not banning it simply means that I and many others will start planking from 0% every game until the opponent approaches, because I have every right to put myself at the maximum advantage withing the ruleset at any given time.

 

[TheFast]

Uhg I liked Ghebs post so much untill his Suggestion. The fact of the mater is their is no problem with Planking if you play smart. The only time that it is called into question is MK vs Falco (or peach) the rest of the caste has good counters to it. The person planking is not always at an avantage. Planking vs TL is just plain stupid to do as you will get bombed, boomeranged, and bair. Character have counters to Planking. Therefor it is not broken. As long as something can be done about it, it shouldnt be banned. Yes it will make Falco loose alot more but face the facts maybe Falco wasnt ment to be top teir. Maybe Planking will make certain character unusable, well boo hoo. It will also increase certain characters who not only have solid counters to planking it will add more depth to the game. Just because a tactic is hard to get around and simple to doesnt mean it is broken. It isnt stalling because they are not in a position where you cannot do anything. The ammount of 40-50 ledge grabs is a stupidly low ammount. The edge is great for things that are not panking and this will limit thoughs. Planking should not have a ban as it is NOT broken. While it is kind of an annoying tactic. But half the stuff in brawl is.

Seriously planking now is a mirror image of the Metaknight scene a couple mounths ago. "Oh its unbeatiable", "I cant get around it", "this is broken". Stop crying about it and learn to get around it. Accept that this tactic is going to alter characters rankings.

 

[Browny]

the rest of the caste has good counters to it.

No they dont?

only a few characters have a safe way of dealing with it

 

[HiddenBowser]

No they dont?

only a few characters have a safe way of dealing with it

I agree with this. Projectiles don't deal with planking that well as its fairly obvious where and when it's going to come at you and with 5 jumps, it's easy for MK to jump around them and then get to the edge.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Other characters CAN plank, but I don't think there's anyone who could possibly do it as effectively as MK. I'm sure there are ways of beating Marth or GaW or even ROB (since Overswarm planked like a mother****er but still lost [coincidentally, to an MK]).

These other characters named are lacking certain things, namely: five jumps + high priority specials.
At the very least, these other characters can be edgehogged. Even GaW can be beaten with the proper timing. Not so with MK.

My solution would just be to ban Metaknight since the game is practically centered around how far ahead he is compared to the rest of the cast. However, this is sort of thing apparently won't be done until it genuinely becomes a problem.

We should just do what the competitive community has always done: let it grow until it actually becomes a big problem.

 

[kevinw0w]

MK is at an advantage while planking, but he's also (usually) at a similar advantage onstage. And for enough characters, it IS a game of RPS, because there are a finite number of abstract options that MK can do on the edge, and a similar number that the other character can do from onstage. For each option that MK has, there's at least one that the other character has that can beat it. While I admit that planking does give at least a reasonable matchup in favor of MK over many characters, many of the upper tiers do in fact have the options to cover all of MK's options on the edge. There are also a number of stages you can counterpick that force MK to not plank, meaning at most you'll have to deal with it for 2 games in a best of 3. Unlike what Bowyer said about % chances of stuff, it's not actually a probability. It's yomi. MK has the full set of tools to plank. Enough other characters have the full set of tools to defeat planking. It's not broken.

So now that sounds like "MK is broken anyways, he'll always be at an advantage, it doesn't matter"

And that's not entirely true, MK is broken, you can't always match all his moves. What options? Care to list some? That's true. Yomi? What's that.

What characters. Not enough characters have the options or "tools" to defeat planking.

Uhg I liked Ghebs post so much untill his Suggestion. The fact of the mater is their is no problem with Planking if you play smart. The only time that it is called into question is MK vs Falco (or peach) the rest of the caste has good counters to it. The person planking is not always at an avantage. Planking vs TL is just plain stupid to do as you will get bombed, boomeranged, and bair. Character have counters to Planking. Therefor it is not broken. As long as something can be done about it, it shouldnt be banned. Yes it will make Falco loose alot more but face the facts maybe Falco wasnt ment to be top teir. Maybe Planking will make certain character unusable, well boo hoo. It will also increase certain characters who not only have solid counters to planking it will add more depth to the game. Just because a tactic is hard to get around and simple to doesnt mean it is broken. It isnt stalling because they are not in a position where you cannot do anything. The ammount of 40-50 ledge grabs is a stupidly low ammount. The edge is great for things that are not panking and this will limit thoughs. Planking should not have a ban as it is NOT broken. While it is kind of an annoying tactic. But half the stuff in brawl is.

Seriously planking now is a mirror image of the Metaknight scene a couple mounths ago. "Oh its unbeatiable", "I cant get around it", "this is broken". Stop crying about it and learn to get around it. Accept that this tactic is going to alter characters rankings.

You're really not making any sense. I thought Ghebs was arguing against banning it as well?
I'm guessing you're from a non english-speaking country?

You're widening the gap between the low tier and top tiers again. Are you saying "forget those other characters, let's just use X amount of chars". 40-50 is about right. Unless you're deliberately ledge-stalling, you will not get anywhere near that amount from simply edgehogging and returning on recovery.

So what, make the uber SS tier MK even higher? That's bull, MK is good enough as it is without planking.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Yomi is a word that speaks about reading your opponent's mind, you can read about it at Sirlin.net.