Should Planking (i.e. Ledgestalling) be Banned?

[HiddenBowser]

My solution would just be to ban Metaknight since the game is practically centered around how far ahead he is compared to the rest of the cast. However, this is sort of thing apparently won't be done until it genuinely becomes a problem.

We should just do what the competitive community has always done: let it grow until it actually becomes a big problem.

omg, wtf, people are ****ing ***** and *****ing about MKs and guess what, they're *****ing about FAST MK's. wtf people, you're *****ing about mk's that are ****ing beatable. just get better and learn how to play the ****ing game. seriously people, there's only a couple people actually capable of playing MK at a really high level out there, and i'm not entirely convinced that it's because he's soooooo much better, cause I don't think he is league above, but rather because many of the good players realize he's the best and switched to him a while back. and **** people, you need to realize that there are only like a dozen people who are freaking ACTUALLY good at the game. you might place in state tourneys but that doesn't mean that you actually know how to play the ****ing game. get over yourself, you win all the time, but you suck in reality. STOP ****ING JOHNING.

LIKE SERIOUSLY, NO MORE GOD **** JOHNS UNTIL YOU ARE ACTUALLY ****ING GOOD.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Unlike what Bowyer said about % chances of stuff, it's not actually a probability. It's yomi. MK has the full set of tools to plank. Enough other characters have the full set of tools to defeat planking. It's not broken.

They're both probability. Look at rps. There are huge tourneys for the game and certain people consistently place higher than others. It's not about pure random odds but rather about reading your opponent and such. That doesn't mean that there aren't odds. Regardless of the yomi'ness involved, there is a 33% chance of winning, 33% of losing, and 33% of tieing. The same with everything in this game. Depending on each player's metagame, and what approaches/defenses someone has knowledge about, there are odds that it will hit. it's just kinda impossibly ridiculous to calculate it.

edit: oops sorry, double post

 

[1048576]

Akuma was theoretically beatable too...

Not comparing planking MK to Akuma per say; merely stating that "being beatable" isn't good enough to aviod a ban.

 

[gallax]

i agree here that planking SHOULD NOT BE BANNED. any good player will find a way to get around it. plus, without tourney results there can be no way that any ban will be implemented. nothing is broken unless it gives average players the ability to beat awesome players on an constant basis. planking does not do this.

if the smash community were to implement a ceiling on the number of times you can grab the ledge, then i would be for it since it would promote more competition and potentially add a little more strategy in the game. as far as the MK debate goes and his planking and being banned, it is totally irrelavent. marth can plank just as well as MK. pika can plank as well. never have i seen this as a problem. it seems as if people just want to find a way to beat MK by limiting what he can do in tourneys instead of learning how to play MK.

 

[adumbrodeus]

In order to understand how big a deal planking actually is, i propose a radical solution...


Our community should not be scrubby and actually... USE IT. You know, try to make it work in a tournament setting.

If people find ways around it and it doesn't end up dominating the tournament scene, then great, it's not banworthy.

If it does... then a ban is necessary.


But basically, people who don't plank because it's "cheap" are doing the community a disservice, using cheap tactics advances the metagame or at least tells us what is legitimately banworthy.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Just don't plank lol. Everyone is moronic. For the extra dumb people you need the ledgegrab rule, and for the impossibly stupid you need the judging rule and the ledgegrab rule. You KNOW when you are planking. Just don't do it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Just don't plank lol. Everyone is moronic. For the extra dumb people you need the ledgegrab rule, and for the impossibly stupid you need the judging rule and the ledgegrab rule. You KNOW when you are planking. Just don't do it.

... Play to win.



Btw, congrats, you're part of the problem when it comes to judging whether or not the move is ban-worthy.

 

[HiddenBowser]

... Play to win.



Btw, congrats, you're part of the problem when it comes to judging whether or not the move is ban-worthy.

If I planked every match then I would quit the scene... call me a scrub, whatever, I'll stick to camping and running out time on stage, not on the ****ing edge making myself cringe and quit smash.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Both me and Gofg have come up with the answer to this, which is that to not ban planking, or MK, no, let's ban Brawl. Is there an argument to not to do this other than '"b-but I sux at melee!!11"

In all seriousness, we are going off of more theory crafting than any real hard facts.

 

[bobson]

What characters.

Everyone except Captain Falcon, Falco, Fox, Ganon, Lucario and Luigi.

 

[Turbo Ether]

^this



I agree with this. Projectiles don't deal with planking that well as its fairly obvious where and when it's going to come at you and with 5 jumps, it's easy for MK to jump around them and then get to the edge.

Truth. Things that people have suggested in this thread, like Din's Fire, PK Thunder, Snake's explosives(lol), etc. suck at beating MK's planking.

 

[Lotopius]

How about using taunts to determine wether someone is stalling or planking?
Initialy, planking is a kind of medium risk-reward thing right? You trade the stage and put yourself in a bad position for either invincibility (by, litteraly, stalling) or the ability to hit relatively safely i.e. planking as it should be done. The problem with MK (and the other problematic characters) is that their mobility and speed enables them to combine both of the benefits stated above.
I think that using a judge is not a very viable decision; nor is a "ledgegrab limit", I mean, who is going to count 20 grabs in a row? We are playing smash, not elementary math.
But the idea is also to give a reward to the character planking by forcing the opponent to approach, so if we were to force a character back on stage, we should allow him to keep some kind of advantage on way or another. Furthermore, planking is a defensive tactic; the opponent has the initiative: he can choose to take the risk and get a quick kill (or advantageous situation) or refuse to be planked.

So the idea would be to instaure a rule the forces the character back onto the stage if the opponent taunts a given number of times; for example:

If a character is planking, and the opponent manages to complete 3 taunts, the character must go back on stage for the next 20 seconds. If the character is de-planked 3 times in a row, it is considered stalling.

This ensures that:
-the opponent gets to choose wether he wants to be planked or not, since he decides wether to pull off the 3 taunts
-the character remains in a slightly advantageous position: characters are helpless during taunts (except for luigi ) so the planking character actually keeps a slight advantage: if de-planked he can choose to rush for it and attack or reset the positions.

Of course the fairness of this rule regarding the entire roster can be adjusted (number of taunts, number of consecutive de-planks, asking for a specific taunt, etc...).
It would also give a little more depth to the metagame: planking on poke-stadium would become much less interesting than on smashville.

 

[illinialex24]

That could be kinda cool but we have to make sure they stay attacking the opponent for a given amount of time.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

then he'd be arguing for the last option. Don't ban it. Not hard to understand.



not banning it.



MK is at an advantage while planking, but he's also (usually) at a similar advantage onstage. And for enough characters, it IS a game of RPS, because there are a finite number of abstract options that MK can do on the edge, and a similar number that the other character can do from onstage. For each option that MK has, there's at least one that the other character has that can beat it. While I admit that planking does give at least a reasonable matchup in favor of MK over many characters, many of the upper tiers do in fact have the options to cover all of MK's options on the edge. There are also a number of stages you can counterpick that force MK to not plank, meaning at most you'll have to deal with it for 2 games in a best of 3. Unlike what Bowyer said about % chances of stuff, it's not actually a probability. It's yomi. MK has the full set of tools to plank. Enough other characters have the full set of tools to defeat planking. It's not broken.

I can always count on you to have a well thought and objective post, SCOTU, thank you for that.

Please do not ban this, it would be as ridiculous as banning Metaknight to ban planking. There should not be a ledge grab rule, there should not be a ban. We are so early in the game's lifespan and this would just be ridiculous.

People over react just because it's metaknight or just because they would rather just ban him than take the time to get around it. There is always a dominant character in any fighting game, Melee's marths and foxes were no different.

 

[Furbs]

I'm all up for it being banned, but it'd be so hard to enforce at tournaments, unless of course its like finals where everyone is watching.

 

[AndreVeloso]

I know it sounds far-fetched, but can we check the "longest drought" on the winners screen. Of course, both players would be high if one planks but than it can be later checked by air time and ledge grabs to see if anyone was planking.

 

[Pikaville]

I said it before and ill say it again.

Planking should be allowed.Along with everything else.(with the exception of freeze glitches etc)This just proves once again what a ridiculously brokenish game it is.

Metaknight+Planking+Tripping........wow Brawl.

 

[illinialex24]

But the game shouldn't be broken at any point. If the game is ever broken, the competitive scene dies because you can really only use 1 character and never lose. Brawl isn't there at all yet, take a look at Pika's new CG.

 

[Lotopius]

I'd disagree with what SCOTU said; a planking MK is actually much more protected than an onstage MK:
-his back is completely protected, you can't maneuver around a MK withought eating a bair or ending up in a VERY difficult position
-he is invincible half of the time.
-his disjointed hitbox allows him to reach beyond the ledge while remaining entirely safe: it's extremely hard to get past those hitbox, especially if they come out during invincibility frames.
-if the MK planks correctly, you only have 2 angles of attack: a downwards 45° angle and down (that usually requires jumping over the edge--->disadvantageous position), both of which can be covered by Uuair and fair

so you end up desperately trying to hit with dtilts, dairs, and sometimes angled ftilts through a wall of high priority hitboxes an invincible MK...

 

[HiddenBowser]

I'd disagree with what SCOTU said; a planking MK is actually much more protected than an onstage MK

this ^

 

[Crystanium]

It seems like people have a hard time telling the difference between planking and just grabbing the edge to avoid getting hit. I'll bring it up again. Around the fourth minute and up in the match between SK92 and Plank, Plank starts planking. Planking is the act of stalling excessively on the edge of a stage. It is understandable in the situation that Plank grabbed the edge, because SK92 was firing his Blaster. Sure, Plank could've had another way of approaching Falco and avoiding the Blaster, but he chose not to. Instead, he decided he'd grab the edge of Battlefield. I do the same thing in this video.

Now, we all can tell the difference between avoiding getting hit by Falco's Blaster versus planking. Planking is an obvious method. You just have to see the replay between SK92 and Plank in the fourth minute of the match just once, and you can tell what is planking and what isn't. I know, it's ridiculous, especially with all those openings that Plank had, such as the point where he hit SK92 away to the other side of the stage, and instead of attacking further, he runs back to the edge. That is unnecessary, which makes it stalling. I don't know why we just don't ban planking, but avoid the idea of a 70 grab rule. Is it so hard to tell what planking looks like?

 

[Lotopius]

It seems like people have a hard time telling the difference between planking and just grabbing the edge to avoid getting hit. I'll bring it up again. Around the fourth minute and up in the match between SK92 and Plank, Plank starts planking. Planking is the act of stalling excessively on the edge of a stage. It is understandable in the situation that Plank grabbed the edge, because SK92 was firing his Blaster.

No

That's not planking, that's stalling.
Planking is taking advantage of the invincibility frames and the tactical position at the ledge.

The problem with planking, is that it sometimes leads to stalling situations where the planker does not wish to quit the edge and the planked does not wish to approach. The problem being, the planking character is not technically stalling, since it's actually waiting for the opponent to approach rather than buying time (analogous to the situation where a marth and an ike just stand on FD waiting for the opponent to make the first move, except one of them is on the ledge).

 

[swordgard]

No

That's not planking, that's stalling.
Planking is taking advantage of the invincibility frames and the tactical position at the ledge.

The problem with planking, is that it sometimes leads to stalling situations where the planker does not wish to quit the edge and the planked does not wish to approach. The problem being, the planking character is not technically stalling, since it's actually waiting for the opponent to approach rather than buying time (analogous to the situation where a marth and an ike just stand on FD waiting for the opponent to make the first move, except one of them is on the ledge).

For people that didnt know yet.

Ledgestalling IS planking. Planking is just the wrong word for it. Its ledgestalling all the way. The point is to stall and the other guy has no choice but to hit you before the clock runs out, however it is simply the EASIEST method of stalling since you cannot mess up easily.

 

[Lotopius]

Then it's banned by definition, so I don't understand why this thread is still alive.

 

[kevinw0w]

Is this really what Brawl has come too? We've already got like 12983921 different chaingrabs, standing infinites, attempting to ban a whole character!

It's not even a game anymore if you've got everyone using MK planking all match. "Let's just chill on the ledge guys". "Hey you approach" "No you approach!"

We've already banned so many things from campy spammy boring brawl. Is the game even worth playing anymore?

 

[illinialex24]

Wow, it is not stalling by definition. MK is pretty much stalling. Jigglypuff and Kirby on the other hand are not stalling, they are forcing your opponent to approach below the stage. There should be no penalty for a non infinite stay below the ledge that does not create a wall like MK or G&W. All you are doing is forcing your opponent to approach, if you hop around on a side of FD without approach, are you considered stalling? No, so why should being under stage do the same? Because a lot of people hate it with mediocre recoveries. However, is it fair. Yes, its just another non broken attribute for Kirby and Jigglypuff.

 

[bobson]

We've already banned so many things from campy spammy boring brawl. Is the game even worth playing anymore?

Pray tell, what are these enormous amounts of things that we've banned?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

People ban too much; there's not any need to ban any of those things you listed. Brawl is worth playing; some people just have trouble with "just play the game" and want to ban everything first.

Also, the "stalling is banned" rule is far less general than some people seem to think. That generic rule, applicable in all smash games, refers to the following sorts of things:

-Infinite combos that do no damage (examples: Jigglypuff's ledgecanceled Sing infinite in melee or Pikachu QAC footstool infinite lock in Brawl)
-Infinite combos extended to an indefinite amount of damage (example: King Dedede's down throw infinite on Donkey Kong in brawl, ONLY if the King Dedede player elects not to kill Donkey Kong even once a very high damage, ~300% by convention, is reached)
-Extreme under the stage camping (example: Peach's infinite wall bomber very low on stages in melee)
-Under the stage loop running (example: using Meta Knight and running/jumping in circles around the main stage on Battlefield in Brawl)
-Other extremely novel gimmicks that make you literally impossible to hit (this is pretty much just the Luigi ladder in teams)

There's also the matter of DK's grab release infinite in smash 64 that has the odd stalling situation that comes up if neither player presses anything; I don't think there's a general convention as per whether the person refusing to grab break or the person who landed the grab is stalling. You might even say it's not stalling at all and simply let the pressure of being down be the deciding factor there. In any case, any smash 64 tournament would do well to specifically address this situation in its ruleset.

I'm sure some TOs consider stalling to be more broad which is why I'd hope future SBR rulesets explicitly list what is considered stalling, but this is the sort of thing that is the normal baseline (and is what everyone should use). Stuff like just running away a lot, running in circles on Luigi's Mansion against opponents too stupid to destroy the mansion, running in circles on stages like Summit and Temple where no under the stage antics are required, camping the water on Pirate Ship, camping on the ledge, camping the cannon on Corneria with Ness in melee, etc. don't fall into that. If you want to ban any of that, it would need to be explicit.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Is this really what Brawl has come too? We've already got like 12983921 different chaingrabs, standing infinites, attempting to ban a whole character!

It's not even a game anymore if you've got everyone using MK planking all match. "Let's just chill on the ledge guys". "Hey you approach" "No you approach!"

yeah, because everyone planks... obviously... stop johning about MK and learn how to play the ****ing game.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Like I said, we shouldn't ban it until it genuinely becomes a problem, simply because that isn't how competitive gaming works. If it turns out to actually be a pretty beatable technique, leave it alone.

 

[swordgard]

yeah, because everyone planks... obviously... stop johning about MK and learn how to play the ****ing game, scrub.

Learn to respect people instead of just flaming. Your skill level does not mean you can just flame people around. Im agaisnt planking for one simple reason, even if it destroys a big part of the cast, that does not matter. Its the fact that it technically stalls the tourney down, and if more and more people start to do it, tourneys will take forever.

 

[TheFast]

You're really not making any sense. I thought Ghebs was arguing against banning it as well?
I'm guessing you're from a non english-speaking country?

You're widening the gap between the low tier and top tiers again. Are you saying "forget those other characters, let's just use X amount of chars". 40-50 is about right. Unless you're deliberately ledge-stalling, you will not get anywhere near that amount from simply edgehogging and returning on recovery.

So what, make the uber SS tier MK even higher? That's bull, MK is good enough as it is without planking.

My suggestion: Ban ledgecamping from the bigger tournaments or use a ledge grab limit (like Brawl 'Till You Fall has) but allow planking in smaller tournaments. It would be unfortunate if a potentially broken tactic decided the outcome of such a big and improtant event. But then again: Without results it's hard to argue for a solution if it may not even be needed. For that reason you should allow planking in regular tournaments to see how it works out. Will a better player lose because of this tactic? Will it happen only once or an unusual number of times? Depending on the results we could argue about a solution but at this point it's just too early.

I just wanted to put that out there.



Also When I was reffering to TL as a Character that can counter Planking pretty well I wasnt reffering to him because of just his projectiles. While bombs are a great tactic, the main way Toon Link can counter planking pretty well is through his quick Bair, use of his zair, and yes his projectiles can help. Alot of characters can counter Planking and I stand by that. You just need to know your options at the time and pair mindgames with good timing.


I also present this idea to throw out one of the arguements. I have heard alot of "Planking is broken because it makes the MK and Flaco match-up unplayiable" well using your own logic I wanna ban spacing as it makes the Jigglypuff Marth Match up unplayiable.

Of course Im not being serious about the above. It is an attempt to try and prove how stupid some of the arguements on the pro-ban side are. While I acknowledge the pro-ban sides bring up good points, for me to take it seriously they would have to focus on the good points and not just saying "Its soooooo broken", "I have experiance with it", or "It makes certain match-ups unplayiable." There is always going to be match-up that are very one sided and complaining about a tactic is not validation of a reason to ban.

 

[Dark Hart]

Why do so many people want to use the Japanese Ledge Grab rule, it's completely ********.

 

[kevinw0w]

yeah, because everyone planks... obviously... stop johning about MK and learn how to play the ****ing game, scrub.

You're really confusing.

You're against planking, correct? And yet you will run out the timer on-stage? Is it because you think planking is just... too broken?

And I was just using an example. From SCOTU's matches, which were MK dittos. Just planked the whole time.

I just said what I did because I think Brawl is becoming a really gay game. Yeah call me a scrub for thinking something is "cheap" but it's really no fun to play this way.

 

[Crystanium]

No

That's not planking, that's stalling.
Planking is taking advantage of the invincibility frames and the tactical position at the ledge.

You're still stalling excessively on the edge. You were better off saying, "Not only that," and then adding your part: "but it is also taking advantage of the invicibility frames." Either way, I don't see what is so difficult telling the difference between planking and just grabbing the edge to avoid projectile attacks that are difficult to get through.

 

[HiddenBowser]

99% of the time, they're *****ing about stuff they shouldn't be *****ing about. It happens all the freaking time.

 

[kevinw0w]

Do you know how many people complain and ***** and moan without realizing what they're johning about??? 99% of the time, they're *****ing about stuff they shouldn't be *****ing about. It happens all the freaking time. If people don't know what they're talking about then they should either not talk or not be surprised when they get yelled at... and everything I say should be taken as constructive.

I'm sorry, what was I johning about? I simply said that Brawl is becoming even more broken and unbalanced.

And you just suddenly calling me a a scrub like that was surprising. Mainly because I thought we were on the same side here, against planking.

And thank you, swordgard.

 

[HiddenBowser]

You're really confusing.

You're against planking, correct? And yet you will run out the timer on-stage? Is it because you think planking is just... too broken?

And I was just using an example. From SCOTU's matches, which were MK dittos. Just planked the whole time.

I just said what I did because I think Brawl is becoming a really gay game. Yeah call me a scrub for thinking something is "cheap" but it's really no fun to play this way.

I'm against planking, but I'm not against pushing time. I think planking is broken and makes the game absolutely stupid and pointless to play. When I'm playing patient and pushing time against thrzy's pika or lain's IC's it's really intense for close to the whole time.

I don't care if you think stuff is not fun, but I do care when people start saying how cheap things are when in reality most of the stuff is perfectly beatable. Planking, imo, is not beatable unless you're playing one of a very few select characters. It's stupid and should be taken out.

Other stuff, such as IC infinite, is not broke. You can definitely beat it and the character would be absolutely ruined without it. Other stuff like, DDD infinite on DK, is broke and you really can't beat it because of how easy it is for DDD to grab a DK.

as far as my comment earlier. You were saying how you weren't going to play anymore because people are planking, when in reality, basically nobody does. I think Plank is the only good player to use it in tourney, and as far as I know, it was only against SK92.

edit: it's nothing against you personally, but rather a build up of hearing it ALL OVER THE PLACE

 

[illinialex24]

Look, lets just stop the flaming. I personally think planking depends on the situation. I think MK's planking should be gone and G&W's likely, but every other character should be able to push time on the ledge because it can be punished pretty effectively. Your thoughts?

 

[SwastikaPyle]

The only person flaming here is Bowyer. I still have yet to see how GaW's planking would be broken. Is there any videos of a GaW main doing it?