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Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

Should Metaknight be banned?


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Praxis

Smash Hero
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Sirlin isn't responding to my emails, but that might be because he can't get to his email. He also vanished from Kongregate early this morning. He might have died! :(
Another MK tornado victim.

Let us given Sirlin a moment of silence, and thanks for the steaks.
 

Praxis

Smash Hero
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Read my blog on AiB, its a blog for everyone on SBR trying to get him banned.
my vote: no.
Jem's blog, for those interested:
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=4939
.You realize that until brawl has a new style of movement, Metaknight is AT HIS PRIME, right? There is NOTHING else to add, it's all up to the brain now. Shuttle Loop, Spacing Aerials, "mindgames" (I put quotes because a lot of people use various definitions of it). He can't do anything else until there is a new style of movement in Brawl.

.Marth was winning nearly every (major?) Melee tournament from late 06 until Brawl was released, and Marth was NEVER being considered to be banned. Don't try to tell me he has several bad matchups in melee, HE DOESNT.

.Most Metaknight's are really dumb players. The only smart Metaknight's I know are DSF, Eggz, and myself. Everyone else just constantly spams smash attacks. And if you can't beat that, then you're a bad player yourself. And if you can't beat that, might as well ban GnW too for the same reason.

.The Metaknight's winning tournaments are playing REALLY smart. Is that a crime? This once again goes back to how DSF, Eggz, Myself, and M2K play as smart MK's. People are saying "if I'm as smart (can't even happen anyways, there is no tie game in smarts) as the metaknight, I should be able to win." No, this goes back to matchup problems. This happens in ALL games, even sports. You need to play BETTER and be SMARTER if you're in a disadvantageous matchup.

.Metaknight isn't dominating every region. Azen mains Lucario, but plays MK as an alt. He doesn't main MK, so don't give me that garbage. Lucario can't cover all his bad matchups so he feels its the better thing to do. Oregon's best players and winners aren't Metaknights, Nevada's best player is a Falco, you can even argue WA's best player (in your opinion, that is, if you feel Bladewise is best in WA) isn't a Metaknight.

.Metaknight isn't as perfect as you guys make it out to be. You can beat Metaknight with Falco, Snake, Game And Watch, Toon Link, Marth, DeDeDe (If you don't believe me on D3, watch Eggz d3 **** most the local MK's with him).

tldr version: GET SMARTER. PLAY SMARTER. HE ISN'T PERFECT.

Any takers?
 

ZeroFox

Smash Lord
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New Jersey.
Definitely not. Not officially at least. Some TOs can ban MK at their discretion I would guess, but there should be tournaments which allow Meta Knights. Otherwise all the Meta Knight mains would be at a loss.
 

Overswarm

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Definitely not. Not officially at least. Some TOs can ban MK at their discretion I would guess, but there should be tournaments which allow Meta Knights. Otherwise all the Meta Knight mains would be at a loss.
as opposed to every other character main being at a loss?
 

Browny

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lol every time i see an essay on why MK shouldnt be banned, coming from an MK main, instantly becomes tl;dr
 

Ilucamy

Smash Journeyman
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San Diego, California
I hate MK, seriously, but I don't think he should be banned. Just cause he's "cheap" or "top tier" or "WTFHAZXXBBQ" doesn't mean he's not a legit character. Personally, I hate MK as a character, but I love him as the character he is, I mean he's just so awesome. People shouldn't be deprived of using him just because he's good. I mean, think of how it would feel if your main got banned just because they're the best of the best.

Just learn to deal with him, find a way to beat him and if you can't, use him... it's really just that simple. If you're too lazy to find a way to beat him and too cocky to use him, then too bad, learn to adapt.
 

salaboB

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 16, 2002
Messages
2,136
Jem's blog, for those interested:
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=4939
.You realize that until brawl has a new style of movement, Metaknight is AT HIS PRIME, right? There is NOTHING else to add, it's all up to the brain now. Shuttle Loop, Spacing Aerials, "mindgames" (I put quotes because a lot of people use various definitions of it). He can't do anything else until there is a new style of movement in Brawl.

.Marth was winning nearly every (major?) Melee tournament from late 06 until Brawl was released, and Marth was NEVER being considered to be banned. Don't try to tell me he has several bad matchups in melee, HE DOESNT.

.Most Metaknight's are really dumb players. The only smart Metaknight's I know are DSF, Eggz, and myself. Everyone else just constantly spams smash attacks. And if you can't beat that, then you're a bad player yourself. And if you can't beat that, might as well ban GnW too for the same reason.

.The Metaknight's winning tournaments are playing REALLY smart. Is that a crime? This once again goes back to how DSF, Eggz, Myself, and M2K play as smart MK's. People are saying "if I'm as smart (can't even happen anyways, there is no tie game in smarts) as the metaknight, I should be able to win." No, this goes back to matchup problems. This happens in ALL games, even sports. You need to play BETTER and be SMARTER if you're in a disadvantageous matchup.

.Metaknight isn't dominating every region. Azen mains Lucario, but plays MK as an alt. He doesn't main MK, so don't give me that garbage. Lucario can't cover all his bad matchups so he feels its the better thing to do. Oregon's best players and winners aren't Metaknights, Nevada's best player is a Falco, you can even argue WA's best player (in your opinion, that is, if you feel Bladewise is best in WA) isn't a Metaknight.

.Metaknight isn't as perfect as you guys make it out to be. You can beat Metaknight with Falco, Snake, Game And Watch, Toon Link, Marth, DeDeDe (If you don't believe me on D3, watch Eggz d3 **** most the local MK's with him).

tldr version: GET SMARTER. PLAY SMARTER. HE ISN'T PERFECT.

Any takers?
Well, I'd say the start is basically saying MK will rule forever, because it can be turned around: Saying that MK is at his prime and nothing short of new movement ATs will change things (Those are unlikely) is saying that people who main MK will just learn more and more how to use his hugely varied approach sets to maul any attempts at defending him. Basically, he's going to get more and more impossible to beat as people actually start learning his exact spacing, what moves can't be punished, and how to pressure people properly with him. The only reason his full dominance hasn't been seen yet is there are so many bad people playing him, but that's going to continue to shift to better players as the poor ones slowly improve and the good ones become great. Proof? Find a way to destroy MK on his approach and tell people so they can learn it. Until there's evidence of that, there's no argument or even a reason to believe there's an effective, reliable way to deal with MK attacking you.

Also, it sure would be nice if people could decide if the Falco matchup is even or a disadvantage to Falco, because different threads say different things. I'd say that the example of a 2 week old MK beating Sethlon's Falco though (http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5583644&postcount=5666) is pretty good evidence that Falco doesn't have amazingly good tools for the job -- so Nevada's Falco dominated game is probably due to a bunch of really bad MK players being all he has to face.

It's also telling, whether Jem wants to admit it or not, that Azen uses MK as his alternate instead of, say, anyone else. Yes, he's practiced so much with Lucario and he can pull off awesome wins against people unfamiliar with that matchup (And he's just best with him) so it wouldn't be a good move to just switch his main, but he's gone ahead and picked up the one that everyone else uses. Imo, that's just about as bad as him maining MK because you know he'll switch to MK if something is on the line and his Lucario can't do the job -- not relying on his skill/ingenuity with Lucario.

It also makes the really strange assumption that people playing as smart as you won't beat you -- well, not if you're playing MK and they're not at least. Then they not only must play as well as you do, but they must play *better* than you. On the other hand, you only have to play as well as them to win.

Basically, it's just more anti-ban-MK rhetoric that doesn't address the problems he's causing and tries to use a few very skilled players and a scattering of regions that have no skilled MKs to cause trouble at tournies as proof somehow that MK isn't a big concern. That line has been beaten to death repeatedly in the MK discussion thread, I don't really want to go into it any more detail than I already have here.
 

Praxis

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I hate MK, seriously, but I don't think he should be banned. Just cause he's "cheap" or "top tier" or "WTFHAZXXBBQ" doesn't mean he's not a legit character. Personally, I hate MK as a character, but I love him as the character he is, I mean he's just so awesome. People shouldn't be deprived of using him just because he's good. I mean, think of how it would feel if your main got banned just because they're the best of the best.

Just learn to deal with him, find a way to beat him and if you can't, use him... it's really just that simple. If you're too lazy to find a way to beat him and too cocky to use him, then too bad, learn to adapt.
Nobody here argues that MK is cheap. If anyone does, they should be shot. We don't even want him banned because he's good. We want him banned because he breaks the fundamental aspects of game balance, like counterpicking.

You fail to understand even the basic argument for banning MK.
 

EdreesesPieces

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Espcially when you know this poll means nothing.
It does mean something. It shows the opinion of many smashboards users on the banning of metaknight. By no means is it substantial as a reason to ban or not, but if you think this has no signifance whatsoever, it's probably because you voted for the losing option :laugh:
 

Xzax Kasrani

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LOL you guys suck. First off, Meta is cheap and gay, but Game and Watch is the gayest character.....
Bowser's Chain Grab ***** meta. He can do 30 across FD into a fair which adds up to about 50%. Think if he grabs you at 70%. ZSS goes even with meta. Ask one of the best ZSS players in the US, Snakeee, His ZSS match-up thread even says so. Lucario does good against meta. Snake does good against meta. Diddy does good against meta. Also ask DSF, Good Dedede players go even with good meta players.
And meta v.s olimar, if the olimar shield grabs, and spaces well olimar will counter meta.
Bowsers v.s Meta on FD= 60/ 50 BOWSERS Favor
Snake v.s Meta 55/45 Meta
Lucario v.s Meta 55/45 Meta
ZSS v.s Meta= 50/50
Good Dedede Players= 50/50
Good Spacing, sheild grabbing Olimars= 60/40 Olimar
Gay Game and Watchs go 50/50 with meta
 

salaboB

Smash Champion
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Messages
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LOL you guys suck. First off, Meta is cheap and gay, but Game and Watch is the gayest character.....
Bowser's Chain Grab ***** meta. He can do 30 across FD into a fair which adds up to about 50%. Think if he grabs you at 70%. ZSS goes even with meta. Ask one of the best ZSS players in the US, Snakeee, His ZSS match-up thread even says so. Lucario does good against meta. Snake does good against meta. Diddy does good against meta. Also ask DSF, Good Dedede players go even with good meta players.
And meta v.s olimar, if the olimar shield grabs, and spaces well olimar will counter meta.
Bowsers v.s Meta on FD= 60/ 50 BOWSERS Favor
Snake v.s Meta 55/45 Meta
Lucario v.s Meta 55/45 Meta
ZSS v.s Meta= 50/50
Good Dedede Players= 50/50
Good Spacing, sheild grabbing Olimars= 60/40 Olimar
Gay Game and Watchs go 50/50 with meta
Wow. All those matchup threads are so entirely wrong...

I guess you showed us all.

(Maybe you could go to their boards and actually convince people of these matchups, get some support behind your opinion rather than just saying everyone is wrong about MK's matchups...that would be great, really)
 

Dwiguitar

Smash Rookie
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LOL you guys suck. First off, Meta is cheap and gay, but Game and Watch is the gayest character.....
Bowser's Chain Grab ***** meta. He can do 30 across FD into a fair which adds up to about 50%. Think if he grabs you at 70%. ZSS goes even with meta. Ask one of the best ZSS players in the US, Snakeee, His ZSS match-up thread even says so. Lucario does good against meta. Snake does good against meta. Diddy does good against meta. Also ask DSF, Good Dedede players go even with good meta players.
And meta v.s olimar, if the olimar shield grabs, and spaces well olimar will counter meta.
Bowsers v.s Meta on FD= 60/ 50 BOWSERS Favor
Snake v.s Meta 55/45 Meta
Lucario v.s Meta 55/45 Meta
ZSS v.s Meta= 50/50
Good Dedede Players= 50/50
Good Spacing, sheild grabbing Olimars= 60/40 Olimar
Gay Game and Watchs go 50/50 with meta
This has so much crap I don't even want to point it out.
 

∫unk

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more than one place
This Poll is biased because it thinks a scrub's opinions is worth the same weight as an expert's opinion

It doesn't matter if you're bad you're going to lose the same regardless of who the opponent plays.

Anyone that says Metaknight has weaknesses is stupid (please list them to me). Anyone that says Metaknight isn't clearly superior to the rest of the cast is stupid. If you're one of these people you simply don't understand how broken a good metaknight is until you're actually good with you're character.
 

deepseadiva

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I see the point of this thread now.

"Well if SamuraiPieces said MK should be banned..."

"Oh, well if Hylzwa voted to keep him unbanned..."

Is this the SBR's replacement for an "official statement" on whether or not to ban MK?
 

Deoxys

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I tried to type a reply but reading it in depth caused my brain to shut down.
:laugh:

But Seriously, a poll of 200 Smashboard users that shows a 60-40 ratio doesn't mean much statistically... It's totally possible that more Smashboard users are against the ban than for it, despite the results of this poll. So it doesn't even prove which Smashboarders prefer, which is only so important to the ban discussion in the first place. :dizzy:
 

Praxis

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This Poll is biased because it thinks a scrub's opinions is worth the same weight as an expert's opinion

It doesn't matter if you're bad you're going to lose the same regardless of who the opponent plays.

Anyone that says Metaknight has weaknesses is stupid (please list them to me). Anyone that says Metaknight isn't clearly superior to the rest of the cast is stupid. If you're one of these people you simply don't understand how broken a good metaknight is until you're actually good with you're character.

Look at the poll results, and ignore every name that is not Green/Purple/Red. There you go, a poll of people worth caring about. xD

Regardless, I agree with your stance.
 

ajsmith401

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LOL you guys suck. First off, Meta is cheap and gay, but Game and Watch is the gayest character.....
Bowser's Chain Grab ***** meta. He can do 30 across FD into a fair which adds up to about 50%. Think if he grabs you at 70%. ZSS goes even with meta. Ask one of the best ZSS players in the US, Snakeee, His ZSS match-up thread even says so. Lucario does good against meta. Snake does good against meta. Diddy does good against meta. Also ask DSF, Good Dedede players go even with good meta players.
And meta v.s olimar, if the olimar shield grabs, and spaces well olimar will counter meta.
Bowsers v.s Meta on FD= 60/ 50 BOWSERS Favor
Snake v.s Meta 55/45 Meta
Lucario v.s Meta 55/45 Meta
ZSS v.s Meta= 50/50
Good Dedede Players= 50/50
Good Spacing, sheild grabbing Olimars= 60/40 Olimar
Gay Game and Watchs go 50/50 with meta
i wish you had a brain. then you would understand that im calling you an idiot right now

sorry that was mean. but u dont know what youre talking about
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
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Messages
21,181
I see the point of this thread now.

"Well if SamuraiPieces said MK should be banned..."

"Oh, well if Hylzwa voted to keep him unbanned..."

Is this the SBR's replacement for an "official statement" on whether or not to ban MK?
Because we're obviously not capable of making a statement ourselves and instead tell someone random to do it for us.
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
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Rochester, NY
This Poll is biased because it thinks a scrub's opinions is worth the same weight as an expert's opinion

It doesn't matter if you're bad you're going to lose the same regardless of who the opponent plays.

Anyone that says Metaknight has weaknesses is stupid (please list them to me). Anyone that says Metaknight isn't clearly superior to the rest of the cast is stupid. If you're one of these people you simply don't understand how broken a good metaknight is until you're actually good with you're character.
That's pretty true actually. Nice post.
 

MarKO X

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I just learned that MK really isn't that prominent in NYC. This means that it's not a "PLAY METAKNIGHT OR DIE!!!" type of thing. If it was, then trust me, NYers would be playing a lot of MK. Except Bum. He'd probably still play DK and win. lol
 

Deoxys

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This Poll is biased because it thinks a scrub's opinions is worth the same weight as an expert's opinion

It doesn't matter if you're bad you're going to lose the same regardless of who the opponent plays.

Anyone that says Metaknight has weaknesses is stupid (please list them to me). Anyone that says Metaknight isn't clearly superior to the rest of the cast is stupid. If you're one of these people you simply don't understand how broken a good metaknight is until you're actually good with you're character.

He's light, has slow horizontal aerial movement without using special moves or gliding, his crouch barely reduces his height, has no projectiles, and he lacks attacks that do a lot of damage by themselves.

If by "broken" you mean "necessary to ban for the game to function well," then you are wrong for thinking you'd have to be stupid or bad not to think MK is broken.
 

WakerofWinds

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He's light, has slow horizontal aerial movement without using special moves or gliding, his crouch barely reduces his height, has no projectiles, and he lacks attacks that do a lot of damage by themselves.

If by "broken" you mean "necessary to ban for the game to function well," then you are wrong for thinking you'd have to be stupid or bad not to think MK is broken.
MK has certain advantages that allow his weaknesses to seem nonexistent, or minimal at best. They're difficult to exploit at the very top metagame levels.

MK should be banned, at least temporarily. I'd like to see some life in these other character boards.
 

morbidlyobssesed

Smash Rookie
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You guys don't know what you're talking about. Metaknight is the only part about this game that's balanced. I'm gonna start a group that's Pro Metaknight. Just because someone gets good at a character does not mean you need to ban it. I can understand some of the other character bans but banning Metaknight is pretty much saying "Go ahead, ban them all". Most people aren't even good at this game anyway. Its the equivalent of banning guns that look "scary".
 

Deoxys

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MK has certain advantages that allow his weaknesses to seem nonexistent, or minimal at best. They're difficult to exploit at the very top metagame levels.

MK should be banned, at least temporarily. I'd like to see some life in these other character boards.
My point is that MK DOES have disadvantages. He's not so good that it's totally ******** and you'd notice from the first time you saw someone play him.

Being light isn't that difficult to exploit at the top level. It allows you to be KO'd over the top more easily than other characters regardless of how good the players are. Sure, MK's advantages grossly outweigh his disadvantages, but that can be said about other characters, too. I don't think his insane Pro/Con ratio is a legitimate reason to discuss banning MK, whereas his having no unfavorable matchups is.

You guys don't know what you're talking about. Metaknight is the only part about this game that's balanced. I'm gonna start a group that's Pro Metaknight. Just because someone gets good at a character does not mean you need to ban it. I can understand some of the other character bans but banning Metaknight is pretty much saying "Go ahead, ban them all". Most people aren't even good at this game anyway. Its the equivalent of banning guns that look "scary".
I can't even decifer most of your argument. Could you try to reword it or something? The only point I understood you were trying to make I underlined, and it's totally insane.
 

WakerofWinds

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You guys don't know what you're talking about. Metaknight is the only part about this game that's balanced. I'm gonna start a group that's Pro Metaknight. Just because someone gets good at a character does not mean you need to ban it. I can understand some of the other character bans but banning Metaknight is pretty much saying "Go ahead, ban them all". Most people aren't even good at this game anyway. Its the equivalent of banning guns that look "scary".
How is MK balanced in comparison to the other characters AT ALL. He has huge advantages over pretty much all of them, and those he doesn't have huge advantages over, he still has advantages over. He can be beaten, but it's a really uphill battle no matter who you use or how you use them or where you use them. It's still a mostly uphill battle. Small condolences come for certain characters like Snake or Yoshi, but not much.

Also, Deoxys, I do agree that the fact that he has disadvantages is a good point... It's one of the main points I like to argue, but he does have significantly more advantages then disadvantages at the same time. Also, somebody pointed out in another topic that being light also has its advantages.
 
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