Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Sigrid Fiinikkusu]

It's generally better that, when this is your reasoning, you refrain from voting.

Meh, I can elaborate if it's needed.

 

[Praxis]

Espcially when you know this poll means nothing.

It's an interesting factoid.

The most interesting bit is that the AllIsBrawl polls were slanted in the OPPOSITE direction.

 

[cman]

I'm predicting roughly 2:1 for the ban. Its rather funny to look at who voted and see a bunch of pink, purple, and blue names in the 'yes' box, and solid gray in the 'no' box. Not that it necessarily means anything.

 

[Metro Knight]

When does voting close?

 

[GofG]

Neither does the thread. in fact, nothing discussed in tactical or general ever matters, just the SBR.

 

[JackieRabbit5]

i was originally leaning towards no but now i'm not so sure so i guess i won't vote...

i can guess the yays have it b/c of general anti-MK sentiment, dunno if this would warrant a ban though...smash community is not a democracy heh, more like aristocracy w/ backroomers

 

[_Phloat_]

I'm predicting roughly 2:1 for the ban. Its rather funny to look at who voted and see a bunch of pink, purple, and blue names in the 'yes' box, and solid gray in the 'no' box. Not that it necessarily means anything.

You can see who voted? I've been looking, how?

Probably obvious =[

 

[GofG]

Click on either number.

 

[Lovely]

God damm, I didn't think this many people want Meta Knight banned. T_T

 

[infomon]

I think the non MK tournaments going on could change the flow of the poll...

That's possibly true, but only shows that the poll is misleading at best. Unless you'd like to argue that the results of these non-MK tournaments should be at all relevant in deciding if MK should be banned or not. You would be wrong.

Essentially, adding in more and more detailed options would increase the accuracy of the results but also reduce the statistical importance and weight of them. Having the two simple choices makes the results much more valuable.

Huh?? What is your definition of "statistical importance", and why isn't it equivalent to "accuracy"???? How are the results more valuable if they're wrong?

A presidential election doesn't include "In the middle", "Don't know enough to choose", etc.

In my country, there are more than two options to vote for, and many people spoil their ballot to indicate that they conscientiously object to the options that are presented.

Note that in a real election, your vote influences the outcome. This here is an opinion poll that has no influence on an MK ban, so it is categorically different than a governmental election. People will respond differently.

I voted yes only because I've found myself playing metaknight almost as much as lucas now... and I don't like it but I feel like I have to for competitive purposes...

Maybe you're not playing at the highest level of play, so your abilities are irrelevant to the decision about an MK ban? It's widely established that MK is the easiest character to pick up and do well with, but this is largely irrelevant to the ban question.

about time something like this was made. this is the fairest way to go about the ban imo

Are you nuts!? Polling a biased sample of general, unqualified smashboards members is somehow fair to the general community? You know that most affected people won't be voting here, right?

 

[Vyse]

As a player, I want to vote no.
As a tournament director, I want to vote yes.

: /

 

[GofG]

Think of it this way, infzy. Imagine there actually is a new world order, an illuminati governing the US elections. The actual vote is just a poll so that, if it comes to it, the illuminati don't do something that accidently goes against 90% of the american people's wishes.

 

[Praxis]

56:24. EXACTLY 70% to 30%.

 

[Samuelson]

Smash Bros will be a disgrace to all fighting games if MK gets banned. Pretty much the only time characters get banned is if the only way to beat that character is with that character. I personally wouldn't mind if MK got banned but i wouldn't agree with it either. It just seems like people gave up and are getting into the mindset where MK is unbeatable which is stupid because MK is very beatable.

 

[choknater]

56:24. EXACTLY 70% to 30%.

hahaha wow

 

[GofG]

12:06:07 AM John Wittle: man
12:06:09 AM John Wittle: you ever wonder
12:06:12 AM John Wittle: if like
12:06:16 AM John Wittle: all this stuff about mk being really good
12:06:30 AM John Wittle: is all just like from ONE MONTH of tourney results and like 3 viral videos (plank comes to mind)
12:06:39 AM John Wittle: and really he isn't' even that good at all?
12:06:46 AM John Wittle: oh wait you're afk

 

[ChocoboDX]

CORRECTION:

If you don't have an opinion, don't vote! Being in the middle and voting anyways is being a jerk! That's like saying you want the last blue popsicle when you KNOW your little brother behind you wants it but you don't really care!

Overswarm, your hypothetical situations never cease to amaze me.
Simple, but conveys a very strong point, haha.

Thank you for being intelligent.

 

[GofG]

Mmac, you voted yes?

What?

What happened to Yoshi being the MK counter?

 

[Praxis]

Smash Bros will be a disgrace to all fighting games if MK gets banned. Pretty much the only time characters get banned is if the only way to beat that character is with that character. I personally wouldn't mind if MK got banned but i wouldn't agree with it either. It just seems like people gave up and are getting into the mindset where MK is unbeatable which is stupid because MK is very beatable.

1) Old Sagat was banned in Japan because he made half the cast unplayable, reduced diversity of the cast, and was arguably the best character in Street Fighter II: Super Turbo. He was not as bad as MK.

2) This logic does not work. You're saying that banning MK will make the game worse because it says the game is unbalanced? If MK needs to be banned, refusing to ban him to live up to some ideal of the game being a balanced fighter is a WORSE option than acknowledging the problem and removing him.

 

[HeroMystic]

Smash Bros will be a disgrace to all fighting games if MK gets banned.

Personally, Brawl already is a disgrace to fighting games.

 

[GofG]

Personally, Brawl already is a disgrace to fighting games.

This. Only this.

 

[infomon]

Sure, you CAN vote for someone besides McCain or Obama, but they won't win. Your vote won't matter.

Well your vote on this poll doesn't matter, but that's mostly because this poll doesn't matter.... the analogy sorta breaks down

Think of it this way, infzy. Imagine there actually is a new world order, an illuminati governing the US elections. The actual vote is just a poll so that, if it comes to it, the illuminati don't do something that accidently goes against 90% of the american people's wishes.

Eeks, the analogies are getting worse!! lol. I'm not sure how much "the will of the people" should matter if they're wrong and they're n00bs. It's not like the SBR controls tournaments anyway.

 

[Serris]

Ban him. At least temporarily.

Many characters' metagames have become stagnant due to the lack of numbers in the lower and middle tiers. As people are well aware, every character in Melee had a large amount of people dedicated to each character's boards, posting new discoveries often. Every character had a chance at winning back in Melee, however small it may have been. It isn't like that in Brawl.

Why?

Meta Knight.

He has such a large advantage over the rest of the cast that people feel the need to use him to win. He has little to no lag on all of his moves, one of the best (if not the best) recoveries in the game, and unbeatable priority. The best the rest can hope for is a 50/50 even chance. Even then, it's more like 45:55/Meta Knight. His fluid attacks and ease of use lead him to dominate the tier list, match-ups, and a large majority of the United States' local and major tournaments.

Some may compare Meta Knight to Sheik in Melee. Let's take a look at that in-depth:

-Sheik had no bad match-ups.
-Sheik dominated the Melee tier lists until 2006, ranking first since 2003.
-Sheik is still in the top tier, now considered the third-best character in the game.
-Sheik is a very fast character with lots of combo options and a lot of priority on her attacks.

Sound familiar?

Sheik in Melee and Meta Knight in Brawl are eerily similar in many aspects. People are saying that we need time to beat Meta Knight. This would be true if it weren't for the fact that the majority of competitive Smash players everywhere maining him. In Melee, we had universal advanced techniques to work with to inspire players. This allowed Fox (and eventually Marth) to overcome Sheik, and allowed him to gain the top spot on the tier list (until being tied for first with Marth in 2008). What do we have in Brawl?

Nothing.

And we won't have anything unless people stop using Meta Knight. Character-specific advanced techniques are Brawl's only hope at this point. The lack of numbers and the lack of diversification among players are hurting Brawl severely. To find more advanced techniques and more strategies, we need more players working to find them. If this game is to have any hope of fair competition, Meta Knight needs to be gone.

 

[GofG]

I'm starting to understand how SRK feels.

Infzy, if you think this poll means nothing, go away lol. I personally think it could be helpful, but I don't want to argue about why. I'm lying on my side and it's hard to type like this. I may very well be wrong, like SRK about items, but I don't really want you, like smashers, to come and yell at me.

 

[Samuelson]

2) This logic does not work. You're saying that banning MK will make the game worse because it says the game is unbalanced?

I never said that LOLL

I even said i wouldn't mind if he got banned i just wouldn't agree with it. I don't agree with it because there are plenty of characters that go even with MK, or MK has a 60:40 advantage which isn't bad at all. I do understand why people want him banned, some characters just don't stand a chance. If you main a character that doesn't stand a chance then pick up a secondary, it's not that hard of a concept now is it. I just think that people have given up and are looking for an easy solution instead of actually trying.

 

[GofG]

Who does MK go even with, Samuelson?

 

[Iwan]

very nice idea making this poll Gofg...interesting results, to say the least.

 

[Steeler]

this poll can't hurt. :\ just a status report on where some of smashboards stands on this ban.

 

[GofG]

Haha, Iwan, it's been a while. Hows that other guy who plays/played fox?

 

[Samuelson]

Who does MK go even with, Samuelson?

Lucario, DK, Fox, GW and Snake all arguably go even with MK. I believe that M2K has even said that Lucario has the advantage against MK.

EDIT: Diddy Kong on FD can be a real b*tch for MK. I'm not entirely convinced that Yoshi goes even with MK but Yoshi mains seem to think so

 

[Praxis]

I never said that LOLL

I even said i wouldn't mind if he got banned i just wouldn't agree with it. I don't agree with it because there are plenty of characters that go even with MK, or MK has a 60:40 advantage which isn't bad at all. I do understand why people want him banned, some characters just don't stand a chance. If you main a character that doesn't stand a chance then pick up a secondary, it's not that hard of a concept now is it. I just think that people have given up and are looking for an easy solution instead of actually trying.

Who? With recent metagame advancements, MK:Snake is 55:45, and MK:G&W is now more like 60:40, where they were once even in the past.

Right now, MK's only even matchup is another MK. Some of the Yoshi's and DK's and Diddy's are trying to argue for even matchups, but none of them have beaten significant MK's in tournament to prove it.


" If you main a character that doesn't stand a chance then pick up a secondary, it's not that hard of a concept now is it"

This is the problem! EVERYONE is disadvantaged to Metaknight. You're saying to pick a secondary that has less of a disadvantage than your main. No, the only smart choice to beat Metaknight if you can't do it with your main...is to also play Metaknight, his own worst matchup.

The result?

EVERYONE has to play Metaknight, unless they're ridiculously good with their mains.

 

[infomon]

Infzy, if you think this poll means nothing, go away lol. I personally think it could be helpful, but I don't want to argue about why. I'm lying on my side and it's hard to type like this. I may very well be wrong, like SRK about items, but I don't really want you, like smashers, to come and yell at me.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I think that truth is important. I want it to be absolutely clear to people that however this poll turns out, the results are meaningless at best, and can only lead to a misrepresentation of the opinions of the general Brawl community. This is bad, because it's effectively a lie that they will consider to be "statistical truth".

tl;dr: It matters to me if people are being mislead, and I think you have some responsibility for that. *shrug*

 

[cutter]

Lucario, DK, Fox, GW and Snake all arguably go even with MK. I believe that M2K has even said that Lucario has the advantage against MK.

Nope, G&W does NOT have an even matchup against MK.

 

[Metro Knight]

Wow, I think this poll offends Infzy. I think I like Praxis' perspective on this thread better than Infzy's. I mean, this poll holds no real power, but it "might" influence the SBR. So, unless they are 90% MK players and this is a big conspiracy...

 

[Praxis]

Lucario, DK, Fox, GW and Snake all arguably go even with MK. I believe that M2K has even said that Lucario has the advantage against MK.

You're wrong.

Snake no longer goes even with MK. The best Snake in the world (DSF) did better against M2K in MK dittos- on a stage DSF and Mew2King both state is MK's worst (Norfair). He did at one point, but this is no longer the case.

G&W no longer goes even ever since Hylian and M2K posted some new techniques. Up-B invincibility frames beat G&W's safe approach, Bair. The matchup is now strongly in MK's favor.

Fox no longer goes even- MK can edgeguard him with a tornado all day long. In fact, the matchup is strongly in MK's favor.

DK has never been proven- no good DK has beaten the top MK players.

Lucario? Only Azen places. This is way more likely a case of Azen just being too freaking good than Lucario having the advantage. And even Azen often takes MK against Mew2King for dittos.

MK has no even matchups except another MK. The closest, Snake and Diddy, are 45:55 MK's favor, until proven otherwise.

 

[Samuelson]

Lucario? Only Azen places. This is way more likely a case of Azen just being too freaking good than Lucario having the advantage. And even Azen often takes MK against Mew2King for dittos.

Azen isn't the only Lucario that places, he is just the most known Lucario that places. I'm gonna go watch Heroes right now so if i don't respond thats why. If you want to have a discussion about this then contact me on my AIM. I don't like arguing on smashboards. It takes too long hahaha

 

[AlAxe]

So far the vast majority seems to be in favor of a MK ban. I agree the poll could have been better, it could have had an undecided option that would have provided useful info, but it's okay as it is.

 

[Praxis]

Azen isn't the only Lucario that places, he is just the most known Lucario that places. I'm gonna go watch Heroes right now so if i don't respond thats why. If you want to have a discussion about this then contact me on my AIM. I don't like arguing on smashboards. It takes too long hahaha

Have any other Lucario's beaten Dojo, Plank, Inui, Overswarm, M2K, DSF, or another notable Metaknight in tournament?

I know other Lucario's place at tournaments, but against high level MKs?

 

[bigman40]

That was me who voted yes (unless you can see everyone's votes). I really don't care what's gonna happen to meta knight, but if he's screwing the game from getting any better, then he might as well get banned.

Either way, it's a win-win possibility to me (I either remain a even fight for MK, or I have one less character to deal with).

And if anyone gets on my post about me not learning how to beat MKs, then I'm gonna shoot you... :@

 

[infomon]

this poll can't hurt. :\ just a status report on where some of smashboards stands on this ban.

It can't help. I can stand in a coffee shop and poll people, "do you like coffee?", but to try and assume this means anything about the general public is wrong. A status report of where a particular biased subset of Smashboards stands can cause harm if it's used to misrepresent the greater community.