Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[adumbrodeus]

So does Marth

LOL!

Third highest non-tether range in the game is bad (DDD and Charizard beat him out)?

Or Do you mean in melee, where his grab range was literally broken?

 

[Justblaze647]

Ice climbers have bad grab range.

So does Marth

Now, now... there's no need for that...

Spoiler

Sad but true...

 

[Mmac]

Actually, not the Yoshi one.

MK is just required to approach... which he doesn't have to do.

Uh... doesn't he have to? He's a Melee Based Fighter, he's eventually has to get in close. He can't Powershield all day you know.... Someone has to break...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Uh... doesn't he have to? He's a Melee Based Fighter, he's eventually has to get in close. He can't Powershield all day you know.... Someone has to break...

Not at all actually.

You see, while he doesn't need to commit to an approach, he's fine with zoning all day at a range that if you try to egg throw, he'll punish you.

Yoshi really doesn't have that option because everything he could do that with is punishable against MK.

You can potentially mindgame him into getting too close, but Yoshi doesn't have a true answer to MK's zoning game, that's why it's 45-55, if he did it would probably be a neutral with MK and Yoshi both... doing pretty much nothing except running and jumping.


But with the zoning superiority, he can control Yoshi on the ground, ultimately putting Yoshi at a slight but noticable disadvantage.

 

[Mmac]

Not at all actually.

You see, while he doesn't need to commit to an approach, he's fine with zoning all day at a range that if you try to egg throw, he'll punish you..

But you are forgetting that Yoshi can disrupt spacing with Egg Toss Slides, and SH Egg's. Then again, thats probably under the mindgame department...

I just noticed that your sig is animated!

 

[Emblem Lord]

That's not the mindgame department really.

It's just an option.

Like throwing a hadouken in SF.

You use projectiles to control and disrupt.

You fawkin noob.

>_>

 

[ADHD]

Most Ice Climbers can't properly fight Meta Knight. It doesn't matter if you have perfect Chain Grab skills, and can chain someone to 500%. If you can't fight Meta Knight, or even land the grab, this is totally irrelevant. Meta Knight has a 7:3 for Ice Climbers. He is THE counter for them.

Sheik on the other hand does alright against Meta Knight. She has enough speed to keep up with him, a few tools to help her out, a solid game of her own. Grabbing with Sheik is far easier, and you don't need to be concerned about having a partner that is alived and desynched in order to do anything. You can't compare this to Ice Climbers.

No, just no. Sheik does horrible against metaknight.

 

[adumbrodeus]

But you are forgetting that Yoshi can disrupt spacing with Egg Toss Slides, and SH Egg's. Then again, thats probably under the mindgame department...

He has options, but nothing that allows him to zone unpunishably. Unlike MK. He can just break it temporarily if MK doesn't react properly. Then MK powershields another egg and goes back to zoning.

I just noticed that your sig is animated!

Yes, I'm very fond of it, thanks for noticing.

 

[salaboB]

He has options, but nothing that allows him to zone unpunishably. Unlike MK. He can just break it temporarily if MK doesn't react properly. Then MK powershields another egg and goes back to zoning.

And every time Yoshi does a retreating egg toss, MK can just move forward. Eventually, Yoshi runs out of room.

(This is also why Olimar camping MK eventually can be driven off any level that doesn't have walls, and then MK gets a shot at gimping him)

 

[Mmac]

The main difference though is that unlike Olimar, Yoshi can continue throwing eggs even on the ledge, and can actually escape to the stage easily.

It's not like he has to continue throwing eggs though, they're just design to force an aggressive approach. If he does, then too bad for him. He has good Fake out techniques, Good Escapes, and he can just attack himself. Bair is still good, and it can follow it up with a Pivot Grab which is very hard to counter.

I don't see why we continue this argument when we both agree on 45:55...

 

[Overswarm]

So... nearly a 200 point lead.

 

[rehab]

which is 15% in context

 

[adumbrodeus]

The main difference though is that unlike Olimar, Yoshi can continue throwing eggs even on the ledge, and can actually escape to the stage easily.

It's not like he has to continue throwing eggs though, they're just design to force an aggressive approach. If he does, then too bad for him. He has good Fake out techniques, Good Escapes, and he can just attack himself. Bair is still good, and it can follow it up with a Pivot Grab which is very hard to counter.

I don't see why we continue this argument when we both agree on 45:55...

It's all true, but it doesn't beat out MK's zoning advantage, it just partially negates it.


Again, MK's zoning advantage is where the 10 point difference comes in, and Yoshi doesn't have the tools to fully negate it. He just comes close.

edit: 10 point refers to 55-45=10, not a ten point difference on each end.

 

[Deoxys]

So... nearly a 200 point lead.

That's not how it works... When people say "Obama has a 7 point lead," do you think they're talking about 7 people?

 

[adumbrodeus]

That's not how it works... When people say "Obama has a 7 point lead," do you think they're talking about 7 people?

Lol, he doesn't mean points statistic wise, he means points as a way of measuring the number of "goals achieved" aka, the number of people who said "Yes".

 

[ShadowLink84]

So... over a 200 point lead.

1. Meta Knight 477.14 [27.54%]
2. Snake 220.93 [12.75%]

Fix'd

I stole it from Shaya >_>

 

[Mmac]

Where is everyone getting these Tournament statistics from?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Character rankings list.

Shaya posted the code for plugging in the results and getting a readout of the statistics. Really useful.

 

[Mmac]

Character rankings list.

Shaya posted the code for plugging in the results and getting a readout of the statistics. Really useful.

But how accurate is it? Before, a List similar to that (I think it was Shaya's list again) had Yoshi with 5 points. Now, Yoshi has a few Top 8's and Top 4's with a Win recently.... and now he's 3...

I miss Ankoku's original thread

 

[ShadowLink84]

Its extremely accurate because it uses the exact same formula that Ankoku does.

 

[Mmac]

Its extremely accurate because it uses the exact same formula that Ankoku does.

But how did Yoshi dropped when he had 6 Separate Results posted on the thread in the past 2 Weeks? Not to mention why is he so low in the first place when he had 24 Points in September before Ankoku took down the list?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I do not know, it might be that Ankoku hasn't posted the tournament results yet.

Edit: I mean he hasn't accepted them yet.

 

[salaboB]

But how did Yoshi dropped when he had 6 Separate Results posted on the thread in the past 2 Weeks? Not to mention why is he so low in the first place when he had 24 Points in September before Ankoku took down the list?

He may have had early wins that dropped out of the rankings.

Otherwise, you got me.

 

[Plum]

MK has much more trouble with Olimar then people think. Yes, MK will eventually force his way through it, he is bound to, but Olimar also has one of the best grab games, and unlike characters who can argue for better grabs like the Ice Climbers, Olimar has a MUCH easier time grabbing. Pivot grabs, shield grabs, whatever, Olimar can grab whatever Olimar wants. His ground game and camping game can tear MK up unless MK gets a lucky gimp. And I say lucky because Olimar is not as easy to gimp as most people like to think. Those who say Olimar has the worst recovery don't realize his offstage options when it comes to getting back. It's bad, no doubt, but not horrible.

And how much of that lead for the yes is from people who simply want to take the easy way out and ban MK rather than learn how to beat him with one of his neutral or close to neutral matchups?

 

[da K.I.D.]

and how many are from people that have realised that its pointless to try to learn one of his near neutral matches when he is always at the advantage, after countless hours of work and testing and practice.

 

[frdagaa]

and how many are from people that have realised that its pointless to try to learn one of his near neutral matches when he is always at the advantage, after countless hours of work and testing and practice.

Honestly. Why try to learn one of his near neutral matches? Just learn MK, he's MK's worst matchup. Obviously Brawl should become all MK's, that would be the best thing for the community. I mean, duh.

 

[Mmac]

Honestly. Why try to learn one of his near neutral matches? Just learn MK, he's MK's worst matchup. Obviously Brawl should become all MK's, that would be the best thing for the community. I mean, duh.

And that's your problem right there. Nobody wants to learn the other characters to deal with MetaKnight because they go with the Quick Fix, which is another MetaKnight. They were looking for something to beat him with, but they end up being the very person they sought to defeat. He's nothing more than a **** virus!

 

[salaboB]

And that's your problem right there. Nobody wants to learn the other characters to deal with MetaKnight because they go with the Quick Fix, which is another MetaKnight. They were looking for something to beat him with, but they end up being the very person they sought to defeat. He's nothing more than a **** virus!

The problem is that you spend hours learning how to just go even with MK, and then need to spend hours more to learn a secondary to deal with counterpicks against your MK-killer.

Or you could just pick up MK and no longer need to spend time on a second at all.

Which is the smarter route?

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

The problem is that you spend hours learning how to just go even with MK, and then need to spend hours more to learn a secondary to deal with counterpicks against your MK-killer.

Or you could just pick up MK and no longer need to spend time on a second at all.

Which is the smarter route?

pick a secondary.

its smarter in that it'll be one less MK, and one less example of the MKAIDS.

harder? of course

smarter? not at all

 

[salaboB]

pick a secondary.

its smarter in that it'll be one less MK, and one less example of the MKAIDS.

harder? of course

smarter? not at all

So you propose people should just waste their time?

All they have to do is pick MK and then they no longer have to worry about anyone having an advantage versus them or having any stages they need to be particularily careful on or select someone different.

All other characters in the game have situations you need to have a backup or you'll be facing an uphill battle. Not MK. So telling them to pick someone that can go 50:50 with MK (If they practice a lot for that one matchup) and then still spend more time practicing a secondary for their bad stages or the random non-MK is telling them to waste their time. They won't have better odds of winning tournaments that way, unless they're banking on inexperience with the matchup for their MK opponents (And that will only win one or two tournies that they might not have won as MK until the MKs in the area start practicing against that character -- if they're consistent it means they're just that much better and it's kinda pointless since no matter who they play they'd probably win).

 

[Mmac]

Then why shouldn't he be banned? according to your logic, there's no reason to use anyone else. It does nothing more but support the theory that he's grosely overpowered. Hell, people are actually saying he's WORSE than Old Sagat now, who was Soft Banned.

What good would come out of it if he stays unbanned? Melee wasn't all about Fox. Brawl is all about MetaKnight.

 

[mariofanpm12]

Wow, the No MK Ban option is catching up EVER SO SLIGHTLY.

 

[Eyada]

All of this talk about secondaries raises an important question: Why do people bother using anyone other than MK? Especially the top level players. Do all of the top level players who use characters aside from MK secretly think that their character is a MK-counter or that the community assessment of MK's match-ups and strengths is flawed? Why do they bother with anyone else?

Personally, I think there is a type of soft-ban already in place against MK in many areas of the country, and it is responsible for this phenomenon. Why else would competitive players bother using flawed characters when they can use a character who is only held back by your own skill level? Not using MK is a foolish decision from a competitive standpoint due to his unique immunity to counter-picking, yet many players opt not to use him.

It'd be fascinating to know exactly how much character usage is either directly or indirectly affected by the bias against MK usage that seems to be present in many areas; in other words, how many players have chosen to use weaker characters that hinder their ability to win rather than having to deal with being looked down upon or ridiculed.

Or do the top players simply play characters that they like rather than a character that can be shown to factually offer the greatest chance of winning? If this is the case, how much does this behavior alter tournament results in a such an artificial fashion as to render tournament results invalid as a metric for character potential? If everyone in a region voluntarily avoids MK for no other reason than the people there don't like him, the tournament results from that region are "fake" --they don't accurately represent the true effectiveness of the characters in Brawl. I wonder if any regions are actually that deeply affected by voluntarily avoiding using MK.

Also, this isn't a question of "Why use anything other than High-Tier" (a question that has been discussed to death already) --this is a question of "Why use anything other than a character who has no counters?", a problem that didn't exist in Melee. Top-Tier in Melee had counter-picks. MK has no (universally agreed upon) counterpicks. This makes him a completely new problem.

 

[popsofctown]

All of this talk about secondaries raises an important question: Why do people bother using anyone other than MK? Especially the top level players. Do all of the top level players who use characters aside from MK secretly think that their character is a MK-counter or that the community assessment of MK's match-ups and strengths is flawed? Why do they bother with anyone else?

Personally, I think there is a type of soft-ban already in place against MK in many areas of the country, and it is responsible for this phenomenon. Why else would competitive players bother using flawed characters when they can use a character who is only held back by your own skill level? Not using MK is a foolish decision from a competitive standpoint due to his unique immunity to counter-picking, yet many players opt not to use him.

It'd be fascinating to know exactly how much character usage is either directly or indirectly affected by the bias against MK usage that seems to be present in many areas; in other words, how many players have chosen to use weaker characters that hinder their ability to win rather than having to deal with being looked down upon or ridiculed.

Or do the top players simply play characters that they like rather than a character that can be shown to factually offer the greatest chance of winning? If this is the case, how much does this behavior alter tournament results in a such an artificial fashion as to render tournament results invalid as a metric for character potential? If everyone in a region voluntarily avoids MK for no other reason than the people there don't like him, the tournament results from that region are "fake" --they don't accurately represent the true effectiveness of the characters in Brawl. I wonder if any regions are actually that deeply affected by voluntarily avoiding using MK.

Also, this isn't a question of "Why use anything other than High-Tier" (a question that has been discussed to death already) --this is a question of "Why use anything other than a character who has no counters?", a problem that didn't exist in Melee. Top-Tier in Melee had counter-picks. MK has no (universally agreed upon) counterpicks. This makes him a completely new problem.

Quoted for truth. i'm gonna see who said this, whoever it is has said what i've been saying more coherently.

This region is deeply affected by the dishonor of using Meta-Knight. A Meta-Knight mainer here picked Ness in a week, and then went to a tournament and used Ness the whole time (in combination with his other character, DK) because he is above being lame and using MetaKnight. And i'm pretty sure that tournament got listed in ankoku's thread. This invisible elephant in the room is very important, and is the reason why the parallel situation that AlphaZealot pulled out of history was not as upsetting as the situation we have now, there was never this much dishonor in using Marth.

 

[Teran]

The problem that he can't be countered is the reason why I believe he should be banned. The fact that he has no counters and is only 50:50 against another MK has the potential to cause overcentralization of the metagame to the point where it becomes stagnant. Then again, banning a character at such an early stage isn't such a good idea. I say wait about a year, see how all the characters develop on the whole and perhaps then MK's destiny will be more clear. Bah! Ban him anyway! XD

 

[Master Knight DH]

Meta Knight has very low shield stun on his moves, meaning you can retaliate out of a shield or even shield grab, depending on the character you play. There are specific attacks you can't retaliate with out of a shield for most characters, like spaced DTilt or spaced FTilt, but I'm sure most characters have some tool to abuse this. This especially comes in to play against Meta Knights Fair or Bair. Even if they are spaced on a shield, he is very vulnerable, because he can't properly retreat during the aerial because his aerial maneuverability sucks.

People don't think of these sort of things though.

Whoa. I didn't realize there was a weakness like that. I'm more focused on breaking through Meta Knight's approach capabilities to make his light weight exploitable.

Metaknight has a variety of approaches, all of which are hard to deal with. Yes, it is possible to stop an MK approach. A good MK will still be successful in approaching at least 90% of the time, wherein MK can take advantage of his priority, speed, and range. Also, as long as the MK can get up in %, he can just ledge-camp, and he's got probably the best ledge-camp in game - even without a projectile. Then he won't need to approach at all.

It's ridiculous.

Actually, my point is that if Meta Knight loses his firm advantage, he must get it back immediately or he is as good as dead. He won't come back, even with the 6 jumps, glide, and the 4 options for B recovery. I did this with Pit to an online Meta Knight: he got me up to only 7% while I pounded the Meta Knight. You can guess who got the first kill. And before you say something, the guy may have used tornado, but he didn't exactly spam it.

Maybe he was still a newbie, but what happened was that I kept track of his potential approaches, keeping myself set up in a position where I could react to anything I could have missed even with my less than stellar response time. Without projectiles, he has to get right up in my face to nail me, but I'm already in a defensive position, not even needing that ^$*&%&*#@$ arrow spam (for which I had my camera set up, only with a Wario idler in the midst.....yeah, that's why I didn't record, otherwise it would be on YouTube for evaluation, considering the Wolf player was just killing the Wario idler and suiciding for the most part) when I can just get some slash attacks ready, so the second he leaves an opening would be the second I would inflict some damage. Profit.

Whether or not this was a newbie, it certainly worked with this Meta Knight to say the least.

Basically, think of what happens with Olimar. Olimar has obscene defensive moves, but if his damage percentage gets anywhere high, he had better avoid any clean hits whatsoever or he's toast. His light weight and tether recovery ensure that he won't be coming back so he's victimized more heavily by side and bottom kills. This may be different but it's still similar enough.

Still, I'm not sure. It doesn't do that much against G&W after all. I'll still abstain.

 

[Espy Rose]

All of this talk about secondaries raises an important question: Why do people bother using anyone other than MK? Especially the top level players. Do all of the top level players who use characters aside from MK secretly think that their character is a MK-counter or that the community assessment of MK's match-ups and strengths is flawed? Why do they bother with anyone else?

Personally, I think there is a type of soft-ban already in place against MK in many areas of the country, and it is responsible for this phenomenon. Why else would competitive players bother using flawed characters when they can use a character who is only held back by your own skill level? Not using MK is a foolish decision from a competitive standpoint due to his unique immunity to counter-picking, yet many players opt not to use him.

It'd be fascinating to know exactly how much character usage is either directly or indirectly affected by the bias against MK usage that seems to be present in many areas; in other words, how many players have chosen to use weaker characters that hinder their ability to win rather than having to deal with being looked down upon or ridiculed.

Or do the top players simply play characters that they like rather than a character that can be shown to factually offer the greatest chance of winning? If this is the case, how much does this behavior alter tournament results in a such an artificial fashion as to render tournament results invalid as a metric for character potential? If everyone in a region voluntarily avoids MK for no other reason than the people there don't like him, the tournament results from that region are "fake" --they don't accurately represent the true effectiveness of the characters in Brawl. I wonder if any regions are actually that deeply affected by voluntarily avoiding using MK.

Also, this isn't a question of "Why use anything other than High-Tier" (a question that has been discussed to death already) --this is a question of "Why use anything other than a character who has no counters?", a problem that didn't exist in Melee. Top-Tier in Melee had counter-picks. MK has no (universally agreed upon) counterpicks. This makes him a completely new problem.

This...Oh my god...

This is perfection at its best...

---

Personally, I know I'm nowhere near the top when it comes to my region, but I know **** well that I'd probably be closer to the top if I used MK over my main (Sonic).

I refuse to use him, because I despise his character, that is all. I hate his personality.
His qualities in Brawl only made me despise him more, which makes him, in my opinion, LAME.

Quoted for truth. i'm gonna see who said this, whoever it is has said what i've been saying more coherently.

This region is deeply affected by the dishonor of using Meta-Knight. A Meta-Knight mainer here picked Ness in a week, and then went to a tournament and used Ness the whole time (in combination with his other character, DK) because he is above being lame and using MetaKnight. And i'm pretty sure that tournament got listed in ankoku's thread. This invisible elephant in the room is very important, and is the reason why the parallel situation that AlphaZealot pulled out of history was not as upsetting as the situation we have now, there was never this much dishonor in using Marth.

It's as I've been saying since the beginning of the MK ban thread...

Use him to win, or whatever...

It won't change the fact that he's still LAME.

 

[Anther]

I just think some tournament hosts should ban him. This is just going in circles now. Some people strongly believe that he should be banned, while others think it's too early. A lot of influential members already seem upset with him being involved in the tournament scene and are attesting his too goodness... so make yourselves happy XD. You'll only get better with your other worthwhile characters if you don't feel pressured to pick Metaknight ;p... and maybe if everyone decides the banners are whiners, at least your secondary will be tournament trained and ready to compete when the ban gets lifted XD.

 

[Praxis]

All of this talk about secondaries raises an important question: Why do people bother using anyone other than MK? Especially the top level players. Do all of the top level players who use characters aside from MK secretly think that their character is a MK-counter or that the community assessment of MK's match-ups and strengths is flawed? Why do they bother with anyone else?

Personally, I think there is a type of soft-ban already in place against MK in many areas of the country, and it is responsible for this phenomenon. Why else would competitive players bother using flawed characters when they can use a character who is only held back by your own skill level? Not using MK is a foolish decision from a competitive standpoint due to his unique immunity to counter-picking, yet many players opt not to use him.

It'd be fascinating to know exactly how much character usage is either directly or indirectly affected by the bias against MK usage that seems to be present in many areas; in other words, how many players have chosen to use weaker characters that hinder their ability to win rather than having to deal with being looked down upon or ridiculed.

Or do the top players simply play characters that they like rather than a character that can be shown to factually offer the greatest chance of winning? If this is the case, how much does this behavior alter tournament results in a such an artificial fashion as to render tournament results invalid as a metric for character potential? If everyone in a region voluntarily avoids MK for no other reason than the people there don't like him, the tournament results from that region are "fake" --they don't accurately represent the true effectiveness of the characters in Brawl. I wonder if any regions are actually that deeply affected by voluntarily avoiding using MK.

Also, this isn't a question of "Why use anything other than High-Tier" (a question that has been discussed to death already) --this is a question of "Why use anything other than a character who has no counters?", a problem that didn't exist in Melee. Top-Tier in Melee had counter-picks. MK has no (universally agreed upon) counterpicks. This makes him a completely new problem.

You, sir, are right.


Washington State has a sort of soft-ban already on MK. There's only three well-performing MK's in the state; Eggz, Jem, and brdy.

brdy's the only one in Eastern WA, and EWA essentially has a strong soft-ban. Everyone comments on how gay MK is, and jokes about it. MK dittos are done as joke matches and everyone makes comments about MK being broken. *everyone* in Eastern WA thinks down on people who play MK.

Western WA? There's a ton of MK's, but they're all really bad. Eggz and Jem are good, but Eggz is switching away from MK to Dedede because he's tired of the stigma associated with it. Jem just insults anyone who dislikes MK.

There was actually another player playing MK who was low on the PR for a short time. He switched to Game & Watch because he thinks an MK ban might be occurring soon...and his tournament rankings declined and he fell off the PR.



There are a number of regions with poor MK dominance because anyone who plays MK is looked down upon, essentially making him soft-banned.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Does it matter if you're looked down upon when you have money?

Spoiler

No.