Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[choknater]

^He's tied with Fox in the Melee Tier list.

edit: whoa, 6 posts after the post I was replying to. This thread moves fast.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No she didn't. Look at tournament results. The dominance of Sheikw as not comparable to the dominance of MK i think. I may be crapped out on my memory of the tournaments though, correct me if I amw rong.

You're wrong, sir. The first year in Melee were Sheik dittos only (literaly speking). Now the game is a little older than half a year and we already start banning MK.

I just like to remind you that Marth has better results, despite Sheiks earlydominance. Nobody can tell, whether this could (or could not) be the case in Brawl too

 

[AlphaZealot]

What dose this retort? He is criticizing you for using only one tournament as a comparison to the level of dominance that MK has done.

One? I gave a list of 30 100+ person tournaments in Melee, where Marth won more than any other character and placed top 2 at over 20 (2/3rds) of the tournaments. Unlike those in favor of banning MK, I've at least shown the tournaments where Marth DIDN'T win.

Sheik did what MK does by limiting who you could play with, especially at lower levels. Marth did, in terms of results, what MK is doing.

And M2K didn't have anywhere near the success he had with Fox as he did with Marth. He had one of those "meteoric" rises from switching.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Oh, and AZ? Proof that M2K doesn't lose that often when he switches characters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHIFTV4h9ec

Case in point. M2K (Sheik) versus Darkrain (Falcon)

Smooth Criminal

 

[ShadowLink84]

You're wrong, sir. The first year in Melee were Sheik dittos only (literaly speking). Now the game is a little older than half a year and we already start banning MK.

Whoops my mistake.
I am actually nuetral on the Mk banning issue.

I just like to remind you that Marth has better results, despite Sheiks earlydominance. Nobody can tell, whether this could (or could not) be the case in Brawl too

yeah this is true.
Mybe MK will lose his dominance hence my post in AIB. That we have to wait a bit before making any true discussion on a ban.

 

[LeeHarris]

You're wrong, sir. The first year in Melee were Sheik dittos only (literaly speking). Now the game is a little older than half a year and we already start banning MK.

I just like to remind you that Marth has better results, despite Sheiks earlydominance. Nobody can tell, whether this could (or could not) be the case in Brawl too

And your argument is completely baseless. People were getting destroyed by Sheik because they did not have the knowledge or skill from a previous game to carry over. Smash 64 was a very small scene and no one even unlocked the potential of that game except for Isai.

People would get wrecked by Sheik because they couldn't L-cancel, because people didn't understand how to DI, etc. We are at a much more advanced stage beginning with Brawl than we did with Melee.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You're wrong, sir. The first year in Melee were Sheik dittos only (literaly speking). Now the game is a little older than half a year and we already start banning MK.

I just like to remind you that Marth has better results, despite Sheiks earlydominance. Nobody can tell, whether this could (or could not) be the case in Brawl too

Which is why an immediate ban is not advised, something might change, HOWEVER this does not mean that MK is not bannable at this time, and should not be banned if he remains this way once the metagame is mature.

One? I gave a list of 30 100+ person tournaments in Melee, where Marth won more than any other character and placed top 2 at over 20 (2/3rds) of the tournaments. Unlike those in favor of banning MK, I've at least shown the tournaments where Marth DIDN'T win.

Sheik did what MK does by limiting who you could play with, especially at lower levels. Marth did, in terms of results, what MK is doing.

And M2K didn't have anywhere near the success he had with Fox as he did with Marth. He had one of those "meteoric" rises from switching.

Sheik didn't independantly limit characters, every character that did poorly against Sheik did poorly against one or more high or top tier character to same or nearly the same luigi. Luigi is the closest thing to a character that Sheik's presence alone makes unviable and he's still got a very bad match-up against Marth.


Regardless, the fact that he combines the field-clearing of Sheik with the overall dominance of Marth is not a good argument to ban? Especially when he's better at it then either? That would seem to be a textbook case of "broken".

 

[thumbswayup]

One? I gave a list of 30 100+ person tournaments in Melee, where Marth won more than any other character and placed top 2 at over 20 (2/3rds) of the tournaments. Unlike those in favor of banning MK, I've at least shown the tournaments where Marth DIDN'T win.

Sheik did what MK does by limiting who you could play with, especially at lower levels. Marth did, in terms of results, what MK is doing.

And M2K didn't have anywhere near the success he had with Fox as he did with Marth. He had one of those "meteoric" rises from switching.

It's not like everyone can do what M2k does with Marth. That requires a phenominal amount of skill that Brawl MK doesn't even compare to. I could pick that mofo up right now and within a week I'd be beating people I couldn't normally beat.

I asked M2k once why he's so adament about not having his Brawl matches recorded. He replied, "I don't want people copying me. Brawl is easy, so everyone can steal stuff from me a lot easier than Melee."

If that doesn't change your mind well then you're hopeless.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And your argument is completely baseless. People were getting destroyed by Sheik because they did not have the knowledge or skill from a previous game to carry over.

Same with MK

People would get wrecked by Sheik because they couldn't L-cancel, because people didn't understand how to DI, etc. We are at a much more advanced stage beginning with Brawl than we did with Melee.

It's too early to say that

 

[LeeHarris]

How is it the same with MK? Instead of throwing out one liners with no explanation, let's go into detail. I would love to prove you wrong

 

[ShadowLink84]

Same with MK

I disagree. There has been alot going on simply to combat MK and to prove he is not overpowering as people think he is. Alot of it is baseless, some if it is not, yet despite all of this there has never really been anything solid.

This isn't like melee where we had no idea what we were looking for.

It's too early to say that

Prove this please.
There is a lot more saying otherwise.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How is it the same with MK? Instead of throwing out one liners with no explanation, let's go into detail. I would love to prove you wrong

In both, Sheiks and MKs case there was no match-up experience to carry over

 

[CR4SH]

Sheik did what MK does by limiting who you could play with, especially at lower levels. Marth did, in terms of results, what MK is doing.

And M2K didn't have anywhere near the success he had with Fox as he did with Marth. He had one of those "meteoric" rises from switching.

I don't pretend to know anything about top level smash, but I know a hilarious contradiction when I see one.

Read that back to yourself, and then try to compare MK to either character.

Spoiler

Laughing? Crying? Shutting up? Or dense?

 

[LeeHarris]

In both, Sheiks and MKs case there was no match-up experience to carry over

It's not matchup experience. It's game knowledge experience. We have already gone through Brawl with a fine comb because things like SDI are common knowledge now.

And the "too early" argument is false as well. Instead of focusing on how to win tournaments, all players of all characters have focused on "how to beat Metaknight" for months. People found "counters" several times throughout this period and each one has been proven to be false. MK gets better while the other character's weaknesses are exploited more and more. So basically, as time goes on, instead of us finding a way to beat MK, MK just gets better while others get worse.

 

[salaboB]

I asked M2k once why he's so adament about not having his Brawl matches recorded. He replied, "I don't want people copying me. Brawl is easy, so everyone can steal stuff from me a lot easier than Melee."

He also said he plays worse when recorded. I don't know why, something in his mindset.

adumbrodeus - I had a reply to your points all worked out and my internet died last night. If you care particularily I can post it, though the conversation has moved on and I'm kinda inclined to let it go.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Meta Knight has bad aerial mobility and a horrible jump break. The way his sword hits a million times makes it hard for him to clank with projectiles, and on that note he has no projectiles himself. Those are exploitable weaknesses. I'm sure many people are going to point out that those weaknesses aren't big enough to satisfy them, but regardless they exist so the claim that Meta Knight has "no weaknesses" is a bit of an oversized claim.

If you look earlier in this topic, Meta Knight's real numbers in terms of tournament wins were being tossed around, and perhaps the most interesting number was that Meta Knight, in the past two months, has been the winning character over approximately 1/3 tournament goers by himself and 42-45% factoring in everyone who uses Meta Knight + other characters (either using secondaries or using Meta Knight as a secondary). AlphaZealot's post about Marth's tournament results in melee in 2007 shows Marth winning 44% of tournaments, and that's before you factor in that the bigger tournaments in which Marth does better should count more. How is that not comparable? Maybe you could argue that the 2007 data has fewer of the smaller tournaments factored in where Marth was less likely to do well, but wouldn't the fact that it's easier for information to get around now kinda nullify the whole thing? I just don't see how Meta Knight's numbers are supposed to be so much "more dominant"; they seem somewhat less dominant but all in all pretty comparable to me. In either case, Meta Knight is obviously not 3 stocking everyone who doesn't use Meta Knight; if he did that well, we'd expect to see him win a lot more tournaments.

I also don't see the evidence that Meta Knight is personally making most of the cast useless. Who does Meta Knight have an overwhelmingly positive matchup against (bad enough so the character is more or less inviable) that didn't already suck and have such a matchup against another one of the top characters?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's not matchup experience. It's game knowledge experience. We have already gone through Brawl with a fine comb because things like SDI are common knowledge now.

People never thought about Wavedashing. It was discovered regardless. And it changed the Metagame. How do you want to know, that nothing will ever happen? Have you tried everything

And the "too early" argument is false as well.

No it's not. Melee has shown already why.

Instead of focusing on how to win tournaments, all players of all characters have focused on "how to beat Metaknight" for months.

Sheik wasn't any different

MK gets better while the other character's weaknesses are exploited more and more.

MK only gets better because more players use him, not because anything new is discovered. Most other characters Metagames just haven't really evolved yet.

So basically, as time goes on, instead of us finding a way to beat MK, MK just gets better while others get worse.

proof pl0x

 

[thumbswayup]

Who does Meta Knight have an overwhelmingly positive matchup against (bad enough so the character is more or less inviable) that didn't already suck and have such a matchup against another one of the top characters?

Everyone except Snake. Anyone who denies this should not be taken seriously.

 

[CR4SH]

I also don't see the evidence that Meta Knight is personally making most of the cast useless. Who does Meta Knight have an overwhelmingly positive matchup against (bad enough so the character is more or less inviable) that didn't already suck and have such a matchup against another one of the top characters?

You managed to post that and not think Marth? Really? REALLY? How about olimar? How about Wolf? If it weren't for meta even Ike would have a fighting chance.

And being ***** by meta in a matchup is much worse than against any other character, because when choosing a character to counter-pick him, you're still at a disadvantage.

From my perspective, meta makes my character unplayable. D3 also destroys luigi, but I can counterpick D3. Hell, my go-to secondary has a Great matchup against dede (gw).
\

Also (unless I posted too slow) it looks like AZ realized what he did and gave up lol.

 

[salaboB]

Meta Knight has bad aerial mobility and a horrible jump break. The way his sword hits a million times makes it hard for him to clank with projectiles, and on that note he has no projectiles himself. Those are exploitable weaknesses. I'm sure many people are going to point out that those weaknesses aren't big enough to satisfy them, but regardless they exist so the claim that Meta Knight has "no weaknesses" is a bit of an oversized claim.

It's not that they're "not big enough", it's that they've been known for months now and nobody can capitalize on them with any character enough to gain more than a 50:50 matchup -- and even those seem to be tipped towards MK in practice.

No it's not. Melee has shown already why.

Melee has not shown why. In Melee, we knew about wavedashing early -- but it took months to figure out how to apply it. We knew about the IC's possible dominance, them suddenly rising in the tier list was not unexpected but had just been waiting for a good IC player to demonstrate that the theory was correct. There were techniques discussed and successful strategies and ways to punish everyone, even at their most dominating (It just took time to master the technical aspects to gain a lot of those)

Brawl has no such technical aspects located to do that. People have been hammering it intentionally seeking them, and there isn't even a hint of something existing that will so drastically change the entire game or matchups like there was in Melee. The rate of new discoveries has also slowed as people have had to start repeating things that have already been checked, make a big deal of them, and then discover they've already been found, tested, and been relatively useless. Brawl also has no characters that theorycraft *that* much better than they've got performing, the closest are ones like Yoshi and ZSS who people believe can go even with MK but nobody can demonstrate that consistently at the top levels of play.

 

[AlphaZealot]

People would get wrecked by Sheik because they couldn't L-cancel, because people didn't understand how to DI, etc. We are at a much more advanced stage beginning with Brawl than we did with Melee.

This is funny, because a lot of people are doing poorly against MK because they don't DI the shuttle loop property or air dodge after getting hit with Dsmash/Shuttle loop/etc over 100%. OS loves to bring up local tournaments, and this happens to be a HUGE problem at local tournaments where the level of play is lower.

Melee has not shown why. In Melee, we knew about wavedashing early -- but it took months to figure out how to apply it. We knew about the IC's possible dominance, them suddenly rising in the tier list was not unexpected but had just been waiting for a good IC player to demonstrate that the theory was correct. There were techniques discussed and successful strategies and ways to punish everyone, even at their most dominating (It just took time to master the technical aspects to gain a lot of those)

Brawl has no such technical aspects located to do that. People have been hammering it intentionally seeking them, and there isn't even a hint of something existing that will so drastically change the entire game or matchups like there was in Melee. The rate of new discoveries has also slowed as people have had to start repeating things that have already been checked, make a big deal of them, and then discover they've already been found, tested, and been relatively useless. Brawl also has no characters that theorycraft *that* much better than they've got performing, the closest are ones like Yoshi and ZSS who people believe can go even with MK but nobody can demonstrate that consistently at the top levels of play.

I have a huge amount of improvement with Diddy to still make. For example, in my matches with Inui, I didn't D-tilt or U-tilt a single time. Since then, I've discovered that Diddy's U-tilt ***** MK's D-air and that the D-tilt can stop MK's dash attack/can be spammed to create space/its great at poking. On top of that, my technical skill with Diddy is at best inconsistent.

 

[salaboB]

This is funny, because a lot of people are doing poorly against MK because they don't DI the shuttle loop property or air dodge after getting hit with Dsmash/Shuttle loop/etc over 100%. OS loves to bring up local tournaments, and this happens to be a HUGE problem at local tournaments where the level of play is lower.

Bad DI in Melee was due to not knowing of it existing.

Bad DI in Brawl is just bad players, we understand the mechanics much better now

I have a huge amount of improvement with Diddy to still make. For example, in my matches with Inui, I didn't D-tilt or U-tilt a single time. Since then, I've discovered that Diddy's U-tilt ***** MK's D-air. On top of that, my technical skill with Diddy is at best inconsistent.

And if MK gets banned and then your improvements discover during friendlies against Azen that you can actually go even with him (You said you played him right? Presumably you could ask him to play MK occasionally so you could see how you did) then he could be looked at to be unbanned.

But you have to show that these improvements actually present him issues he can't just get around with one of his other half-dozen options to nearly every situation.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Bad DI in Brawl is just bad players, we understand the mechanics much better now

Then don't bring up local tournaments, or correct OS when he believes factoring in local tournaments has meaning.

 

[ShadowLink84]

People never thought about Wavedashing. It was discovered regardless. And it changed the Metagame. How do you want to know, that nothing will ever happen? Have you tried everything

When you find a way to remove lag from FF aerials.
Slide along the ground at will.
Move backwards while facing forwards.
Can combo.
Can take advantage of shieldstun.
Come back to me.

Wavedashing was also found early.

No it's not. Melee has shown already why.

How is this a response?
How has melee shown anything?

Sheik wasn't any different

Except we found ways to get around her eventually and even had ideas in less than ayear.

MK only gets better because more players use him, not because anything new is discovered. Most other characters Metagames just haven't really evolved yet.

Proof plox.
Show me how my Sonic will face MK betteer than 80:20

This is funny, because a lot of people are doing poorly against MK because they don't DI the shuttle loop property or air dodge after getting hit with Dsmash/Shuttle loop/etc over 100%. OS loves to bring up local tournaments, and this happens to be a HUGE problem at local tournaments where the level of play is lower.

Lower? That sounds like bottom.
Sorry.

Um anyway.
Airdodging doesn't stop death it lowers hitstun.

Then don't bring up local tournaments, or correct OS when he believes factoring in local tournaments has meaning.

Whoa what? is this some poor emthod of trying to remove whats hampering your Marth and MK comparison?

I mean, massively sized tournaments totally don't have bad players.

How many players can you honestly say are the pro level in those massive tournaments?

Not many I am quite sure.

There will always be many bad players in comparison to good.

All that large tournaments do is increase the likelihood of having better players.
in which case you woulds till be wrong because the large tournaments are very small in terms of how many there are so you end up lacking results to prove either claim.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Everyone except Snake. Anyone who denies this should not be taken seriously.

Should I pull tournament numbers for characters other than Meta Knight and Snake? Off the top of my head, Anther and Azen win tons with Pikachu and Lucario who are, last I checked, not Meta Knight and Snake. Either way, your response fails because it is saying that guys like Ganondorf are not wrecked by more top characters than Meta Knight (obviously false). The point was to explicitly list characters so you'd actually be forced to defend "N character is inviable and will never win against Meta Knight"; I bet whatever characters you named (assuming it's not someone like Captain Falcon who never will be beating someone like Mr. Game & Watch anyway) will not go over very well.

Mew2King seems to think that Olimar has the advantage on Meta Knight; at the very least, it's not clear that Meta Knight has a "sure thing" win in that matchup. Don't even bring up gimping because, once Olimar is over the edge, there's not much difference between any characters in terms of gimping him (if you didn't notice, it's really easy with everyone; Meta Knight isn't special).

Marth's tournament stats are amazingly good if he really is inviable because of Meta Knight. The Marth boards to claim Meta Knight as their worst matchup (at 65:35), but I think claiming Marth is actually inviable because of Meta Knight would be a bit of an absurd claim.

Wolf is probably the closest you're going to find since his tournament results aren't quite as amazing as Marth's (though they are really nothing to sneeze at), and the Wolf boards claim the matchup at a 70-30, but that's not the worst matchup they claim actually! They claim 75-25 against Falco so even if Meta Knight is a contributing factor to Wolf being inviable (if he even is), the Wolf boards at least (who we can assume are the main experts on Wolf) seem convinced that Falco is just as much if not more of a ship sinker.

 

[salaboB]

Then don't bring up local tournaments, or correct OS when he believes factoring in local tournaments has meaning.

It has meaning primarily as far as its impact on the community and whether people will attend them or not. These are the same people who provide most of the fodder at bigger tournaments, hence making them bigger and not just three-state "local" sized tournies.

If MK is just that much no fun to fight against because he's even easier to pick up/dominate with than Sheik (Like, a cross between her and Marth seems a good description) that people will quit, he's a problem where she wasn't. And that will carry down into the bottom skill levels of players. At least when you lost to Sheik you could pretend you'd had a chance to win as someone else, because the Sheik player probably sucked at DI and everything too and it could get them killed sometimes. That's not nearly as true with MK and his amazing recovery and easy approaches (Makes landing the blows that the MK player needs to DI to survive a lot harder).

 

[LeeHarris]

People never thought about Wavedashing. It was discovered regardless. And it changed the Metagame. How do you want to know, that nothing will ever happen? Have you tried everything

It was a side effect of the engine. In Brawl, there are thousands of people trying everything they can every day to find a glitch. We have found nothing except the ISJR, which is insanely hard.

No it's not. Melee has shown already why.

Aye carumba man, we JUST addressed this!

This is funny, because a lot of people are doing poorly against MK because they don't DI the shuttle loop property or air dodge after getting hit with Dsmash/Shuttle loop/etc over 100%. OS loves to bring up local tournaments, and this happens to be a HUGE problem at local tournaments where the level of play is lower.

The noobs do poorly against MK because they don't know wtf they are doing. Ask Hylian, Roy, Sethlon, etc why they get beat by MK's moves. It's not DI. TX has amazing anti-MK DI because we deal with it so much at every tourney.

I have a huge amount of improvement with Diddy to still make. For example, in my matches with Inui, I didn't D-tilt or U-tilt a single time. Since then, I've discovered that Diddy's U-tilt ***** MK's D-air and that the D-tilt can stop MK's dash attack/can be spammed to create space/its great at poking. On top of that, my technical skill with Diddy is at best inconsistent.

And for every miniscule improvement you can make, MK will do the same. If you "**** his dair" (which I doubt), then he will find another approach. It's so funny because people think that if a character can get through MK's tornado or avoid a certain move that they are a good matchup against MK. Then MK players just find a way to destroy that character without the approach. When I ask people why think they think DK is a MK counter, they say, "because he can own the tornado!" Who cares about the tornado? I'll destroy DK with every other move I have.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

When you find a way to remove lag from FF aerials.
Slide along the ground at will.
Move backwards while facing forwards.
Can combo.
Can take advantage of shieldstun.
Come back to me.

Who ever said anything like that?

Wavedashing was also found early.

...and?

How is this a response?
How has melee shown anything?

Melee has shown that a character dominance can stop, after a year

Except we found ways to get around her eventually and even had ideas in less than ayear.

We also have ideas now, we just don't use them yet: Yoshi + Bowser CG, DK Footstool. These things haven't been used on the highest level. Maybe if a player - and I mean a really good one would use it...who knows what happens?

Proof plox.
Show me how my Sonic will face MK betteer than 80:20

Terrrible example. Sonic sux

 

[salaboB]

Melee has shown that a character dominance can stop, after a year

We also have ideas now, we just don't use them yet: Yoshi + Bowser CG, DK Footstool. These things haven't been used on the highest level. Maybe if a player - and I mean a really good one would use it...who knows what happens?

So are we stuck waiting for this really good player to demonstrate these things? Grabbing is known to be hard, even a really good player won't change that. The DK footstool is uncertain, neat as it appears -- it's a lot like playing Fox in Melee flawlessly for the difficulty to do it reliably, from what I've heard. So any player beating MK with that is probably so much better than the MK they could win with Sonic. And the matchups need to be 50:50 at high skill, not master levels if you want MK to stop suppressing other characters.

And Melee had more realistic ideas about how to bring that character down than we do. Brawl just lacks the tools to create many possibilities.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Mew2King seems to think that Olimar has the advantage on Meta Knight; at the very least, it's not clear that Meta Knight has a "sure thing" win in that matchup. Don't even bring up gimping because, once Olimar is over the edge, there's not much difference between any characters in terms of gimping him (if you didn't notice, it's really easy with everyone; Meta Knight isn't special).

Lol

Here's the issue with that. With his second jump intact, Oli has counters to the entire cast in terms of gimping. What can MK do, follow him off-stage no matter where he is, force him to use the second jump AND THEN ledgehog.

Regardless, he's much easier to get off the side and KO in general.

In Shadow moses he can survive to ungodly percents because MK doesn't KO off the top very well.

On other stages, MK can approach and reliably get him off-stage, and then he's done.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Who ever said anything like that?

What i listed was the prime reason for helping to improve matchups.
Those capabilities enabled characters like Bowser and Link to be capable of facing agaisnt characters who normally would obliterate them.

...and?

your point?

Melee has shown that a character dominance can stop, after a year

With a very small community to begin with that lacks experience and knowledge.

Which we don't with the brawlc ommunity.

We also have ideas now, we just don't use them yet: Yoshi + Bowser CG, DK Footstool. These things haven't been used on the highest level. Maybe if a player - and I mean a really good one would use it...who knows what happens?

Wrong. Thats a case of improbable.

For example, in melee Dk had a death combo on Fox.
unlike what you listed, it was highly probably due to Dk's capabilities and Fox capabilities.

So the ability for a good DKl user to death combo Fox was well within the realm of possiblity.

Meanwhile with the Yoshi and Bowser CG, and DK footstool, they require that the opponent make a large error in spacing.

In short they are improbable.

Unless you are saying all the Pit's should start using Wingdashing and arrow looping in tournaments? (which they don't)

Terrrible example. Sonic sux

Thats...not nice...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Meanwhile with the Yoshi and Bowser CG, and DK footstool, they require that the opponent make a large error in spacing.

In short they are improbable.

Unless you are saying all the Pit's should start using Wingdashing and arrow looping in tournaments? (which they don't)

Actually, not the Yoshi one.

MK is just required to approach... which he doesn't have to do.

 

[choknater]

This reminds me of the presidential election.

Let the spirit of debate live on in smashboards!!!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What i listed was the prime reason for helping to improve matchups.
Those capabilities enabled characters like Bowser and Link to be capable of facing agaisnt characters who normally would obliterate them.

No, these weren't prime reasons. They were just examples

For example, in melee Dk had a death combo on Fox.
unlike what you listed, it was highly probably due to Dk's capabilities and Fox capabilities.

So the ability for a good DKl user to death combo Fox was well within the realm of possiblity.

Vids pl0x. Nao

Meanwhile with the Yoshi and Bowser CG, and DK footstool, they require that the opponent make a large error in spacing.

Do they really? Or did we just not yet make use of all options? Maybe there are options we don't know about just yet?

Thats...not nice...

...forgive me

 

[Justblaze647]

@ Choknater: Lmao!

 

[DMG]

This reminds me of the presidential election.

Let the spirit of debate live on in smashboards!!!

Not if I have to talk to THAT ONE!!!

 

[salaboB]

Do they really? Or did we just not yet make use of all options? Maybe there are options we don't know about just yet?

Wavedashing was known about approximately 1 month after Melee's US release, and there is talk of it being used in tournament within 6 months.

What spacing AT do you think we've managed to miss (Even a hint of!) for even longer than that which will suddenly make grabs or the footstool more easily performed?

Sure, there might be one. But it's so unlikely as to be worth ignoring.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No, these weren't prime reasons. They were just examples

They are prime reasons because they enabled those characters to compete. Unless you disagree.
If Link or DK or Bowser did not have L canceling, wavedashing, dash dancing or crouch canceling (like they do now) they would ahve been much worse off thant hey are now.

Vids pl0x. Nao

What you didn't know?
Go to youtube.

Bum vs Mew2King.
In one of the matches he kills Mew2King twice with a death combo and does it again on the first stock of another match.

Do they really? Or did we just not yet make use of all options? Maybe there are options we don't know about just yet?

Yeah they really do.
When you take into account the speed of MK's moves, the range of them, his ability to remain in the air, his specials, overall strategies, they are not going to happen.

In melee with the DK death combo, you had methods of forcing the grab.
With MK there is no method of forcing him into a position where you can ground footstool him or CG him.

...forgive me

only if you give me a cookie.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Ice climbers have bad grab range.

So does Marth

 

[Emblem Lord]

^^^^^^You are funny.