Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[salaboB]

DK, Bowser, and ZSS, all some of MK's worst theoretical matchups, aren't even in the chart.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Gabz]

First: Learn2paragraph

second: You just mentioned G&W's strenghts,you forgot his weaknesses, bad match-ups and counterpicks. Thats what makes him non-bannable.

,Yeah: sorry bout that, yeah should've pharagraphed

About his weakness im just trying to make a point here like mk also has weaknesses we mostly talk about his advantages.G&w may have some bad matchups but you cant only see a char cause of his matchups its more than that. I know what youre trying to say.
And yeah in the tournaments you see a lot of MKs probably a 50% now thats something i give a negative mark.

 

[GofG]

,Yeah: sorry bout that, yeah should've pharagraphed

this is like, the coolest grammar i've ever seen. Pharagraphed?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

How do you find exactly what frame it is? AR or Ocarina or something!?

you record a video and slow it down so much that you can see every frame. My thing only does 30fps though so its always off by 1.

edit: I wonder how many people voted because it was just like ban MK? I own my friends all the time with ganon.

 

[GofG]

Arturito_Burrito, actually, if you de-interlace the video you can get all 60 frames.

 

[Gabz]

this is like, the coolest grammar i've ever seen. Pharagraphed?

Mmm, yeah sorry bout that

 

[Justblaze647]

Pharagraphed... I want that word...

 

[Mmac]

So Vex Karasani may have found a potential CG against MK.

Be marth or snake, grab release to shield cancelled grab.

It works?

Marth and Sheik might work, but everyone else with a Jump Release that already proved to work (Bowser, Yoshi, ZSS, Falcon) seem to be too slow to regrab him in time.

I'm not sure how much Sheik and Marth can change up the matchup with this, if works, but if Marth can Spike MetaKnight on release, that could be devastating....

 

[Gabz]

Pharagraphed... I want that word...

Lol. And well, marth spiking yeah he can do something.

 

[Uffe]

No undecided option? I am saddened.

If it's undecided, don't vote...










Yet.

 

[Talvi]

No, Metaknight shouldn't be banned, and a poll shouldn't decide it. There are far more scrubs than intelligent players, which removes any credibility in any poll.

 

[Mmac]

No, Metaknight shouldn't be banned, and a poll shouldn't decide it. There are far more scrubs than intelligent players, which removes any credibility in any poll.

There's also plenty of intelligent posters that voted yes to be banned. Not saying this Poll is creditable, but if you only think random scrubs voted Yes, then you are very mistaken

 

[Uffe]

No, Metaknight shouldn't be banned, and a poll shouldn't decide it. There are far more scrubs than intelligent players, which removes any credibility in any poll.

Pick out the scrubs from the intelligent players. Also, MK should be banned. I never really let it bother me and I'm not right now. But there are far more MK's winning in tournaments than there are other characters. You know what happened when MK was out of the picture? There were a variety of characters and not just top tiers winning every match. At least other characters had a chance because even the top ones had equal or bad match ups.

 

[Deoxys]

How are you using ftilt from the air? Obviously those characters are going to force Meta Knight to jump break.

Answer this man!!!!! (assumin' you're a male Ampharos)

Please?

 

[JesiahTEG]

I'm pretty sure he meant that MK will land and then Ftilt before he can be regrabbed? Or maybe he meant fair...

 

[WakerofWinds]

No, Metaknight shouldn't be banned, and a poll shouldn't decide it. There are far more scrubs than intelligent players, which removes any credibility in any poll.

I don't think you know what a scrub is. And if you do, then use it the right way next time. Please.

 

[Mmac]

Answer this man!!!!! (assumin' you're a male Ampharos)

Please?

Marth and Sheik might work, but everyone else with a Jump Release that already proved to work (Bowser, Yoshi, ZSS, Falcon) seem to be too slow to regrab him in time.

I'm not sure how much Sheik and Marth can change up the matchup with this, if works, but if Marth can Spike MetaKnight on release, that could be devastating....

I Kinda already answered it, but I don't know if Marth/Sheik can grab them before he recovers in the air... Still need some testing

Obviously he probably thought you meant a Ground Break Release

 

[Mortimer]

I Kinda already answered it, but I don't know if Marth/Sheik can grab them before he recovers in the air... Still need some testing

Obviously he probably thought you meant a Ground Break Release

He said Snake, not Sheik. Just in case you're talking about different things..

 

[Deoxys]

I don't think you know what a scrub is. And if you do, then use it the right way next time. Please.

QFT

@Mmac: I was asking what he meant by ftilt... from MK's jump release....

He said Snake, not Sheik. Just in case you're talking about different things..

No. I was talking about Marth...

 

[Mmac]

He said Snake, not Sheik. Just in case you're talking about different things..

Snake doesn't work, he runs too slow and his added grab range doesn't benefit him enough to regrab him. by the time he Reaches him, he already clearly recovered

@Mmac: I was asking what he meant by ftilt... from MK's jump release....

He thought you meant it was a Ground Break, not an Aerial Release

 

[adumbrodeus]

Where are you getting your definition of the term scrubbish from?

Don't say Sirlin, because Sirlin has specifically said (It was quoted earlier in this very thread) that his Playing to Win 1 (Which is where the most common definition of Scrub used around these boards comes from) has nothing to do with making tournament rules.

This discussion of banning MK is a decision about tournament rules. Actually banning MK is a decision about tournament rules. There is nothing scrubbish about making tournament rules, unless you're making up your own definition for the word and I'd request you start saying "Bulmish" so everyone can tell you're not using a term they know already.

Spoiler

I sure hope "Bulmish" doesn't mean something bad in some other language...

Their words not mine.

Plenty of people have been saying things like "banning is a last resort, scrubs", etc.

Also, you again are stating opinion: Who has said they will quit if he is banned but only if he is banned prematurely? That's the only case where doing this "properly" or not will cause a different reaction.

Edit: This is going to be my last comment about this, because I'm tired of my explanations being ignored while you pull justifications out of thin air. What the vote shows is that 40% of those who have voted feel MK should not be banned. There is no way for you to tell what number of the No votes believe it is "scrubbish", or simply feel it's not time yet, or just not necessary. So you haven't proven a thing with this about the community's feeling for it, you only have what they feel should or shouldn't be done that you can say with any certainty.

I am stating what people have said and done in other games.

There have been migrations from competitive scenes for other games for the same reason.

One of the Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen had this issue because they banned a few characters which really were not ban-worthy, resulting in lots of players leaving (including people I know personally) and the competitive community being generally scorned.


A little sociological rule, people tend to react more harshly when you do something they don't like then when you don't do something they do want.


Regardless, I've provided plenty of justifacation. I pointed out:

1. that we lack a good match-up chart and ban criteria, both of are required at min in order to ban any character.

2. That the metagame is incredibly young, and in general banning at this point is ill-advised.

3. That new discoveries are far more unlikely to reverse decisions once they occur if they are noticed.

4. That new discoveries are far more unlikely to be noticed.


You have unsuccessfully attempted to poke holes in all those points, even if you had managed to knock down one or two of them, the others would still stand. You're not bothering to attack the entire argument in any meaningful way, and thus, I haven't budged? Why would I? Especially since the majority of my argument depends, not on data, but the lack thereof.

No sir, if there are more than one variable within an algebraic statement, they must have a quantitative relationship to eachother, numbers or not, something similar must compare the two. Without this you have single variable algebra, which needs numbers. Otherwise you're simply making an argument based on the laws of logic itself, which I don't see you directly applying. Just because you've taken algebra doesn't mean you understand algebra.

Logic is math.

Regardless, you don't need actual numbers to apply the principals behind a concept. The direct reference to algebra was to show that this was the case in a way that SHOULD be able to resonate with them.

Eh, but I'll set it up mathmatically.

All are positive integers (round if applicable).

y1=cx where y is number of tests and x is number of MK players currently, and c is average number of chances the player has to discover a technique.

y2=cRx where it is same as above, except R is greater then 0 and less then one.

Now, no matter what value is substituted in for the unkowns (assuming the rules I provided are followed obviously), y1 will always be greater then y2, correct?


Regardless, this technically falls into algebraic number theory.

 

[Talvi]

There's also plenty of intelligent posters that voted yes to be banned. Not saying this Poll is creditable, but if you only think random scrubs voted Yes, then you are very mistaken

Of course there are still some people that vote yes and have some good arguments to add, but most people that want MK to be banned are just losers that don't want to get better and feel annoyed by a so superior character, that think makes them not win with their Ganondorf.

Come on, we all know MK is the best character. Removing him is the easy solution.

 

[Zelc]

40 colored names for the ban
42 colored names against the ban

 

[adumbrodeus]

40 colored names for the ban
42 colored names against the ban

Smash debators don't count.

TOs not really either.

Heck, this really is just to gauge community sentiment, so cutting out the colored names in general is your best bet probably.

 

[Fino]

Would I like to see him banned.... yes (haven't we given Mk enough money?)

SHOULD he be banned.... not in the least. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to early. I just started to play good MK's... and I have no johns


~Fino

 

[Master Knight DH]

I'll abstain on my guess: Meta Knight is supposed to be a pro swordsman and Brawl is, of course, a video game where the pro swordsman is always going to have a high threat rating. Has anybody tried to find a way to get him to approach and exploit any openings, however small? Right now, I'm leaning toward voting no, but if I see enough evidence that this still doesn't work, I can just as easily vote yes.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I'm pretty sure he meant that MK will land and then Ftilt before he can be regrabbed? Or maybe he meant fair...

REDNAMEWTF!?!?!?

when the hell did that happen

 

[JesiahTEG]

A few days ago buddy. You're late.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Jesiah=too good?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ulevo]

For the record.

About this how Grab Release jazz. I highly doubt many people actually are aware of it. But Sheik is able to kill Meta Knight at a very stupid percent... Like 70% or something? Grab Release to Boost Smash. It has to be Boost. But it will land a perfect USmash tipper and KO Meta Knight very quickly. She can also do a regular USmash and other things out of it for damage racking.

I'm not implying anything for match up ratios, but this is something I rarely ever see anyone discuss at all. And if anyone says it's not viable because it's difficult, I'm going to hit you with a phone book.

 

[GofG]

For the record.

About this how Grab Release jazz. I highly doubt many people actually are aware of it. But Sheik is able to kill Meta Knight at a very stupid percent... Like 70% or something? Grab Release to Boost Smash. It has to be Boost. But it will land a perfect USmash tipper and KO Meta Knight very quickly. She can also do a regular USmash and other things out of it for damage racking.

I'm not implying anything for match up ratios, but this is something I rarely ever see anyone discuss at all. And if anyone says it's not viable because it's difficult, I'm going to hit you with a phone book.

The ability to kill Metaknight from a single grab hasn't helped the Ice Climbers.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The ability to kill Metaknight from a single grab hasn't helped the Ice Climbers.

Ice climbers have bad grab range.

 

[Ulevo]

The ability to kill Metaknight from a single grab hasn't helped the Ice Climbers.

Most Ice Climbers can't properly fight Meta Knight. It doesn't matter if you have perfect Chain Grab skills, and can chain someone to 500%. If you can't fight Meta Knight, or even land the grab, this is totally irrelevant. Meta Knight has a 7:3 for Ice Climbers. He is THE counter for them.

Sheik on the other hand does alright against Meta Knight. She has enough speed to keep up with him, a few tools to help her out, a solid game of her own. Grabbing with Sheik is far easier, and you don't need to be concerned about having a partner that is alived and desynched in order to do anything. You can't compare this to Ice Climbers.

 

[dark-war-cloud]

Okay, this crap is getting way too out of hand.
"BANE MEATNIGHT" is everywhere and i'm getting pretty sick of it.
it's worse than when every user involved "i fight for my friends" in their posts.
every thread has become about banning metaknight and it's ****ing annoying because everyone whining about it some scrub who lost to metaknight and is are trying to justify it to whatever MK user they used that he lost only because the other player was using metaknight.
needless to say, the metaknight you played won't see your post and he can't possibly care.


P.S., Don't get me wrong, i want metaknight banned, but people shouldn't be making such a huge deal about him.

 

[Ulevo]

I'll abstain on my guess: Meta Knight is supposed to be a pro swordsman and Brawl is, of course, a video game where the pro swordsman is always going to have a high threat rating. Has anybody tried to find a way to get him to approach and exploit any openings, however small? Right now, I'm leaning toward voting no, but if I see enough evidence that this still doesn't work, I can just as easily vote yes.

Meta Knight has very low shield stun on his moves, meaning you can retaliate out of a shield or even shield grab, depending on the character you play. There are specific attacks you can't retaliate with out of a shield for most characters, like spaced DTilt or spaced FTilt, but I'm sure most characters have some tool to abuse this. This especially comes in to play against Meta Knights Fair or Bair. Even if they are spaced on a shield, he is very vulnerable, because he can't properly retreat during the aerial because his aerial maneuverability sucks.

People don't think of these sort of things though.

 

[WakerofWinds]

Okay, this crap is getting way too out of hand.
"BANE MEATNIGHT" is everywhere and i'm getting pretty sick of it.
it's worse than when every user involved "i fight for my friends" in their posts.
every thread has become about banning metaknight and it's ****ing annoying because everyone whining about it some scrub who lost to metaknight and is are trying to justify it to whatever MK user they used that he lost only because the other player was using metaknight.
needless to say, the metaknight you played won't see your post and he can't possibly care.


P.S., Don't get me wrong, i want metaknight banned, but people shouldn't be making such a huge deal about him.

Yeah... this argument is getting pretty bad.... but still... I don't think every thread is about banning MK. Heck, I don't even know how concerned a lot of the different character boards are. (I know a few that simply aren't) I don't think most of the people trying to discuss this in this particular topic are trying to talk about people losing.

Somebody else said it best. "The other thread is for discussing why he should be banned, this one is to discuss what could happen if he is." So far, that seems to hold true, except for utterly random posts.

 

[frdagaa]

I'll abstain on my guess: Meta Knight is supposed to be a pro swordsman and Brawl is, of course, a video game where the pro swordsman is always going to have a high threat rating. Has anybody tried to find a way to get him to approach and exploit any openings, however small? Right now, I'm leaning toward voting no, but if I see enough evidence that this still doesn't work, I can just as easily vote yes.

Metaknight has a variety of approaches, all of which are hard to deal with. Yes, it is possible to stop an MK approach. A good MK will still be successful in approaching at least 90% of the time, wherein MK can take advantage of his priority, speed, and range. Also, as long as the MK can get up in %, he can just ledge-camp, and he's got probably the best ledge-camp in game - even without a projectile. Then he won't need to approach at all.

It's ridiculous.

 

[Ulevo]

Meta Knight Tournament Result Comparison Thread ~

For anyone wishing to argue the facts on Meta Knights current and recent tournament rankings, it is a good thing to be informed before you speak. Here's a good place to start.

 

[adumbrodeus]

For the record.

About this how Grab Release jazz. I highly doubt many people actually are aware of it. But Sheik is able to kill Meta Knight at a very stupid percent... Like 70% or something? Grab Release to Boost Smash. It has to be Boost. But it will land a perfect USmash tipper and KO Meta Knight very quickly. She can also do a regular USmash and other things out of it for damage racking.

I'm not implying anything for match up ratios, but this is something I rarely ever see anyone discuss at all. And if anyone says it's not viable because it's difficult, I'm going to hit you with a phone book.

Not hard, but like ICs we cannot depend on Sheik ever actually grabbing MK.

Of course Sheik has better tools for grabbing, but the trade-off is Sheik's is not a Deathgrab.

Yoshi has an easier time still, not quite a death grab at any percent, but it kills at... 20+ I believe it is if the fair spike is used.

Meta Knight has very low shield stun on his moves, meaning you can retaliate out of a shield or even shield grab, depending on the character you play. There are specific attacks you can't retaliate with out of a shield for most characters, like spaced DTilt or spaced FTilt, but I'm sure most characters have some tool to abuse this. This especially comes in to play against Meta Knights Fair or Bair. Even if they are spaced on a shield, he is very vulnerable, because he can't properly retreat during the aerial because his aerial maneuverability sucks.

People don't think of these sort of things though.

That's actually part of the reason why Yoshi works.

People do consider them, but it's part of the hidden discussion behind match-ups, aka, what moves are safe.

At least from my expirience with match-ups, safe moves are heavily considered in match-ups, though the Marth boards might have spoiled me.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Marth boards got to me too T_T